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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Dec 22, 2018 6:30:14 GMT
I want ideas. Many of you are absolutely nuts. Well, so am I.
This is not a joke thread. I am curious what rules the general public think would be fair to everyone, and represent everyone, without any special or protected status, immunity, etc.
Can forum rules exist such that adults can have a heated conversation about sensitive things, and as long as they don't get to publicly talking about strangling each other with their dicks we let it continue?
Does making everyone feeling comfortable with every thread stifle anyone feeling comfortable with any thread?
Is it critical that you do not see things that do not make you comfortable, and then intentionally look at uncomfortable things and get mad about seeing what you didn't want to see in the place where stuff you don't want to see exists?
...
What rules are critical?
What conversation can we nearly universally agree is unacceptable?
Can a forum be run as a "democracy"? To me, I think it should be like Starship Troopers and that service guarantees citizenship, because it's a gaming forum for us by us. But that's a digression.
Where do we draw the line? How many lines are there?
How many specific cases do we need to cover with line drawings, without becoming the IRS tax code?
When does a forumite get a say? Are they a citizen from birth? This is a serious question and just seems like a political comment because I am a funny topical guy.
Should threads be eligible for locking? Under what circumstances?
How should punishment occur should behavior transgress our plainly written common language rule? It has to be fair and consistent.
...
Can a forum be run as a Democracy, even if there is a Dark Jedi hiding behind it all? Won't he eventually be the Senate?
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Dec 22, 2018 6:54:22 GMT
To get the ball rolling and be an annoying double poster all in one shot -
What about a "local" ban? Banning a member from a thread, or threads, but not the forum?
I actually asked for something like this once here - The Wrongthink Thread was like irresistible triggerment for me, and I knew I couldn't stay away. I asked to have that subforum blocked from my view, and that was not something ProBoards was set up to do.
I think it's a nice idea, local bans. Some people can't resist temptation, but are still good people.
Good job Glenn, thanks for contributing!
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Post by mousestalker on Dec 22, 2018 8:05:10 GMT
If I set the rules I think I would start with the following:
1. No spam.
2. Don't insult each other. Public figures are fair game. Ideas are fair game. Other fourumites are not, no matter how wrong they might be.
3. No criminal activity.
4. No threats.
5. No hitting on other forumites outside of clearly designated areas a/k/a don't be a creep.
6. No doxxing.
That's about it. Please note there are some major differences between those rules and the rules of this forum. (a/k/a Proboard).
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Post by Ieldra on Dec 22, 2018 9:12:49 GMT
Before I start, note that this is all theoretical since we are where we are and the rules have been set, and any deeper discussion of the matter may possibly require moving to PM. As for the matter at hand, you know, I'm actually quite for forum rules that ensure civilized conduct beyond what I would ever accept from the state. Basically, if people want to go at each other, I say they should be able to do it but not necessarily here, and I would not be interested in joining a forum where that was more common. While I can take it and I'm pretty thick-skinned, and generally think people should be somewhat resilient in the face of verbal adversity, I also think it's a huge waste of time and quite off-putting on top of it, and it uses up a lot of mental energy to deal with that could be more pleasantly spent (I guess the mods could say a thing or two about that, too). I want more people to be part of discussions, and you won't get that if you drive them away by your behaviour. Having said that, different standards in different areas of a forum would be acceptable to me, as long as that was made obvious to everyone *before* they looked into specific threads. As I said, I want more people to be part of discussions, and that also means accommodating, to some degree, people who are less thick-skinned than I am. Once we can get a conversation rolling, we can always bring up the topic for debate. The first rule in international diplomacy for anyone who doesn't want a war is "keep talking, whatever your differences". I think it's a good rule. As for more democracy, be careful what you ask for. I am absolutely convinced that things would be actually more restrictive here with majority rule, and generally things would be much more likely to fragment into opposing factions across the forum. What might be useful is an open discussion of which kind of statements, exactly, are objectionable, as long as you don't risk the forum's existence. The main problem, as I see it, are different opinions about what exactly constitutes "X which isn't allowed". People who are more sensitive should familiarize themselves with the idea of "concept creep". For the matter of this discussion, it basically means that the meaning of a term changes once some of the conditions that defined it no longer exist, rather than the term going away for irrelevance. Thus, in some circles the range of the acceptable has been more narrowly circumscribed exactly because the conditions that originally made objections important are less often met. One possible outcome in the real world is nicely described in the phrase "the revolution eats its own children". At the other end of the debate, people should really accept that a civilized discourse is important for any useful debate, and that they do not get a free pass because of their feelings that they're not sufficiently recognized by the forum environment - BTW, does anyone else see the irony in this mirror image? If this is more philosophical than practical in some way, that is intentional, and it's also just how I am.
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Post by Ieldra on Dec 22, 2018 14:57:18 GMT
I'd make the rules as clear, concise and simple as you can so there is no room for interpretation. I think the idea that there is ever going to be "no room for interpretation" is unrealistic. Not even professional lawmakers manage that. the rules here actually *are* not complicated at all, the devil's in the application.
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Dec 22, 2018 15:37:29 GMT
Rules need to be simple, concise, yet as plain as possible.
Comportment should be civil. Personal disputes will be moved to PM once they get boring for everyone/forum runs out of popcorn.
You'll never fool all the people all the time. You'll also never please all the people all the time. If we can please most, that's better than most institutions do.
...
That this thread has garnered so little discussion/input is pretty sad honestly. We are talking about making ideal rules... Ya know, they could be applied here.
Makes me think that if a new forum were made, all BSN variants would shut down from too much trying. Are we spent? Is the tank really empty? Is it me?
Because apathy is death.
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Post by SofaJockey on Dec 22, 2018 16:24:16 GMT
That this thread has garnered so little discussion/input is pretty sad honestly. We are talking about making ideal rules... I'd say rule sets will always be a compromise. Of the scant discussion this topic has garnered I can see in miniature exactly the questions and challenges that the moderators went through over the last 2 1/2 years. Balancing an idealized notion of what might be nice with something that doesn't burn down in practice. And this is where we ended up: bsn.boards.net/thread/634/read-bsn-forum-rulesAs a realistic solution, I think it holds up fairly well, particularly for a broad forum with thousands of daily visitors. Makes me think that if a new forum were made, all BSN variants would shut down from too much trying. Are we spent? Is the tank really empty? Is it me? Because apathy is death. Everyone has a choice to go where they will and post where they wish online. If you are suggesting that the recent decision about the Political Thread signals a death knell for BSN, that is a concern I was monitoring carefully through the site analytics. The Political Thread was a huge thread in terms of posts and activity, running to thousands of pages. I've been monitoring the situation very carefully to see what the level of page views drop would result from the decision. And the views drop in the 72 hours since we made the decision is, none at all, actually an increase in interest. Yes, apathy is death, but heading into Anthem launch and then into a gentle build to another Dragon Age game in 2021/2022 I feel comfortable that the BSN community has an online vehicle that is 'fit for purpose' to fulfill that task. A task that even BioWare wiped their hands of as 'too difficult' when they closed the official forums in 2016. I won't out who I'm talking about (to preserve the sanctity of the PM) but I received a lovely supportive PM from a top BioWare executive last year including the comment: 'You've accomplished something we ourselves couldn't..."In summary, please do what you will with any forum you create or stay here and enjoy this one. As a poster, you are someone I personally have significant respect for. But I know the moderation team here plans to continue to grow this community with the majority of people who enjoy talking about and playing BioWare and other games in mind.
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Dec 22, 2018 17:18:43 GMT
Those numbers would be interesting if not for the timing.
I do not find it surprising at all that the site is busier right now, actually as a result of closing that thread. I am posting like a madman. I'm not the only one.
Snapshots are great for investors that like being lied to. That's how movies get made, and it's gross.
...
I am not suggesting a death knell for anything other than BioWare. They are doing this to themselves, with the best of intentions. It would be a beautiful thing if it wasn't so ham-fisted and unnecessary.
They just keep shrinking their niche. It is reflected in the new fans.
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Post by regack on Dec 22, 2018 17:51:14 GMT
Limited time today, but I think this thread is a good starting point if you're looking for a way to come up with things that will work, but I would suggest also looking outside of this site in order to find rules and things that might serve to work well. I know I've looked at the rules in use at the Warframe reddit sm.reddit.com/r/Warframe/wiki/rules There are some nice things in there, particularly the fact that there are examples to give people a better feel for what they mean - just as @dustyelf has suggested above. The Golden Rule or the Excessive Trolling rule are both great... but ... what's the threshold for 'excessive'? Everyone will have different tolerance levels. Examples are great for that. Coming up with those examples should be part of building the guidelines
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Post by Ieldra on Dec 22, 2018 17:58:41 GMT
I am not suggesting a death knell for anything other than BioWare. They are doing this to themselves, with the best of intentions. It would be a beautiful thing if it wasn't so ham-fisted and unnecessary. They just keep shrinking their niche. It is reflected in the new fans. I've been hearing something similar for 15 years. I remain skeptical.
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Dec 22, 2018 18:22:08 GMT
I am not suggesting a death knell for anything other than BioWare. They are doing this to themselves, with the best of intentions. It would be a beautiful thing if it wasn't so ham-fisted and unnecessary. They just keep shrinking their niche. It is reflected in the new fans. I've been hearing something similar for 15 years. I remain skeptical. Death by 1000 cuts. You can be skeptical. Always in motion the future. As for a 100% ban on any personal attack... Not on my forum. That's absolutely ridiculous. This is the real world, and my forum is no safe space for anybody. I hate and love you all equally. If that is too cold and harsh a reality, the forum will fail. So be it. Edit: people keep wanting Utopia. It doesn't exist and never will, humanity as a whole will not allow it. This yearning for perfection, I understand it. It ain't happening though, especially not on a forum with random inhabitants from around the world.
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Just here for the cosplay
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Post by mousestalker on Dec 22, 2018 18:36:13 GMT
To be fair, I do have faith in EA to micromanage themselves into failure.
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Post by SofaJockey on Dec 22, 2018 18:41:54 GMT
Well, good luck with that then. I think it would be appropriate to anchor this discussion now, as this sub-forum is intended to be focused on discussing this forum, and I'm really not seeing any moderator inclination to change our rules at this time, partly due to consensus and partly due to ProBoards constraints. But thanks for raising the points.
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Dec 22, 2018 19:46:32 GMT
Well, good luck with that then. I think it would be appropriate to anchor this discussion now, as this sub-forum is intended to be focused on discussing this forum, and I'm really not seeing any moderator inclination to change our rules at this time, partly due to consensus and partly due to ProBoards constraints. But thanks for raising the points. In another place in another time, a discussion was had that provides a fair solution to this. pvp subforums. enter at your own peril, and handle your beef. moderation will be strict, but the lines drawn will be basic and easily understood.
Your instant dismissiveness shows a closed mind, imo. Thank you for discussing this forum; so am I. I have no forum other than this, currently, and as I have stated multiple times in the About Moderation thread, and here as well - I don't really want one. I want this one to be better.
Edit: anchoring the thread is petty.
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Post by Jeremiah12LGeek on Dec 22, 2018 20:03:40 GMT
I'd like to think the anchor was an error (it can happen.)
From a practical perspective, it is completely pointless, which inclines me to think someone accidentally clicked something.
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Dec 22, 2018 20:06:01 GMT
I'd like to think the anchor was an error (it can happen.) From a practical perspective, it is completely pointless, which inclines me to think someone accidentally clicked something. No, he actually said he anchored the thread a few posts up.
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Post by Jeremiah12LGeek on Dec 22, 2018 20:06:50 GMT
I stand corrected.
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Post by SofaJockey on Dec 22, 2018 20:08:37 GMT
Edit: anchoring the thread is petty. I would hate to be petty...
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Dec 23, 2018 0:13:37 GMT
Edit: anchoring the thread is petty. I would hate to be petty... Well... That is pretty big of you old boy, thank you. As J12LG had said it wouldn't have made a huge difference anyway considering the activity of this subforum. Also, I hope you believe that I am genuine when I say that this thread is absolutely for this forum, even if it is also a hashing grounds for general forum rules and acceptable behavior.
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mousestalker
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ღ The Untitled
Just here for the cosplay
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Post by mousestalker on Dec 23, 2018 0:17:30 GMT
Poised and ready for an intelligent discussion of model rules.
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Dec 23, 2018 0:34:58 GMT
Poised and ready for an intelligent discussion of model rules. Don't wait for me, I'm the dumb one that starts the conversation and spitballs! Before all rules can be made, conditions have to be evaluated and considered. The goal of any forum, absolutely this one, is to be as active as possible and retain members while maintaining some sort of growth. How can we have an adult forum that is open to argument, may get heated and occasionally personal, AND cater to the broadest selection possible? That said, what are the baselines? Many people consider personal attacks entirely unacceptable. If that policy were adhered to strictly here, I would have been banned to infinity and beyond. In this case, I think our moderators have done an astonishing job of managing a difficult personality (me) in the hopes of keeping a forum member retained. Kudos team! So, personal attacks must have limits, but cannot be an insta-ban sort of offense. Otherwise I cannot exist, and I want to live. Doxxing seems to be a big deal for folks. I've always been the come at me bro type, but I understand why it is a concern and I only have about 10 more years of Rickson Gracie before I become Clint Eastwood, so... Time is not on my side, and I should take the long view. It is a 'no'. Hate speech. Needs serious definition. Bannable offense, if the speech falls into a grey area that is undefined, the maximum penalty is a temp ban with warning. Spam. The moderators nightmare. My nightmare. Many people's nightmare. Don't do it. Steps are 1)moderator pruning and in-thread warning, 2)moderator pruning and a temporary ban, then 3)goodbye asshole. Ok, dinner's ready, that's a mind dump.
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Post by Onecrazymonkey1 on Dec 23, 2018 0:45:05 GMT
I have one! if someone makes an accusation against another poster, then the accused should be allowed to keep up a post defending himself...with all unpleasant language redacted of course. Those would be some real nice fair rules.
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mousestalker
Inactive Moderator
ღ The Untitled
Just here for the cosplay
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Post by mousestalker on Dec 23, 2018 0:46:17 GMT
The only I would quibble with is hate speech. It's mostly against the rules here, but I would allow it in my dream board as long as it wasn't directed at a member.
If 'commie', for example was a bad term and commies were a protected class, then calling someone a 'retard, like every other commie' would be an insult under my rules. However, calling someone a 'f-ing commie', would not. Likewise 'all commies are idiots' would also be ok, even if the poster knows that another forumite is a member of that class.
My rationale is this: Adults should be able to handle hate, especially in a political setting. It's also language I would never use. I do like knowing who participates in what bigotries. Also, what hate speech is tends to shift over time. Lastly, I really hate censoring other people's words.
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Dec 23, 2018 1:19:16 GMT
The only I would quibble with is hate speech. It's mostly against the rules here, but I would allow it in my dream board as long as it wasn't directed at member. If 'commie', for example was a bad term and commies were a protected class, then calling someone a 'retard, like every other commie' would be an insult under my rules. However, calling someone a 'f-ing commie', would not. Likewise 'all commies are idiots' would also be ok, even if the poster knows that another forumite is member of that class. My rationale is this: Adults should be able to handle hate, especially in a political setting. It's also language I would never use. I do like knowing who participates in what bigotries. Also, what hate speech is tends to shift over time. Lastly, I really hate censoring other people's words. Yes. I only include it because I don't like certain terms however they are used, whoever is using them. N word comes to mind. There are a few others. My definition of hate speech is pretty narrow, but I do think it has some merit.
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Just here for the cosplay
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Post by mousestalker on Dec 23, 2018 1:38:32 GMT
There we disagree. But, your forum, your rules. If I wanted to claim protected status, I could. But I truly think it's all BS and so I do not.
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