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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Feb 16, 2019 23:01:31 GMT
You can repair NPC's, apparently. If you can find some that need to be repaired. Interesting! There are NPC Javelin's in the world?
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monkeylungs
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 766 Likes: 811
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monkeylungs
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by monkeylungs on Feb 16, 2019 23:03:35 GMT
You can repair NPC's, apparently. If you can find some that need to be repaired. Interesting! There are NPC Javelin's in the world? Downed sentinels. Seems like it might be hard to find them though. Like you need one of those events to pop up in freeplay.
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OdanUrr
N4
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 1,158 Likes: 1,844
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by OdanUrr on Feb 16, 2019 23:26:40 GMT
Sentinels in the game are the definition of useless.
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Post by papaspud on Feb 16, 2019 23:59:08 GMT
I find it hard to believe the question needed to be asked. It also is a little bit finger pointy.... Indeed. I thought it sounded a bit like that too. Every time BioWare throws that line out about playing a game "with your friends," I wince a little bit. I am older and a woman. My friends are all older and are women, and among them, I am the only one who games. I can imagine their looks of horror if I were to suggest they give it a try. Most of them aren't even aware I play. But that's not really the issue, because I do have two grown sons who would be happy to team up with me, and if I asked, my husband would go along for the ride as well. But I've observed the intense pressure of performing as part of a team in online games, and I am simply not of the personality type to regard that as fun or relaxing. I play games for the same reason I read books -- to disconnect from reality for a while, to unwind -- and having to deal with the expectations and opinions of living, breathing people is the exact opposite of that. I'm in the same boat, hard to find many 60+ year old gamers to buddy up with, only 1 of my friends games and he is strictly solo.
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Post by river82 on Feb 17, 2019 2:00:10 GMT
Indeed. I thought it sounded a bit like that too. Every time BioWare throws that line out about playing a game "with your friends," I wince a little bit. I am older and a woman. My friends are all older and are women, and among them, I am the only one who games. I can imagine their looks of horror if I were to suggest they give it a try. Most of them aren't even aware I play. But that's not really the issue, because I do have two grown sons who would be happy to team up with me, and if I asked, my husband would go along for the ride as well. But I've observed the intense pressure of performing as part of a team in online games, and I am simply not of the personality type to regard that as fun or relaxing. I play games for the same reason I read books -- to disconnect from reality for a while, to unwind -- and having to deal with the expectations and opinions of living, breathing people is the exact opposite of that. I'm in the same boat, hard to find many 60+ year old gamers to buddy up with, only 1 of my friends games and he is strictly solo. Too many 20-30 game developers who don't remember Jack "Doom is responsible for school massacres" Thompson and that until recently gaming wasn't a socially acceptable hobby.
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Praise the Justicat!
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Post by Pounce de León on Feb 17, 2019 2:13:43 GMT
I'm in the same boat, hard to find many 60+ year old gamers to buddy up with, only 1 of my friends games and he is strictly solo. Too many 20-30 game developers who don't remember Jack "Doom is responsible for school massacres" Thompson and that until recently gaming wasn't a socially acceptable hobby. Is there already a "Don't you have friends?" meme with the Blizzard guy?
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Post by river82 on Feb 17, 2019 2:18:33 GMT
Too many 20-30 game developers who don't remember Jack "Doom is responsible for school massacres" Thompson and that until recently gaming wasn't a socially acceptable hobby. Is there already a "Don't you have friends?" meme with the Blizzard guy? Don't think so
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papacharlie9
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Feb 17, 2019 3:43:13 GMT
Indeed. I thought it sounded a bit like that too. Every time BioWare throws that line out about playing a game "with your friends," I wince a little bit. I am older and a woman. My friends are all older and are women, and among them, I am the only one who games. I can imagine their looks of horror if I were to suggest they give it a try. Most of them aren't even aware I play. But that's not really the issue, because I do have two grown sons who would be happy to team up with me, and if I asked, my husband would go along for the ride as well. But I've observed the intense pressure of performing as part of a team in online games, and I am simply not of the personality type to regard that as fun or relaxing. I play games for the same reason I read books -- to disconnect from reality for a while, to unwind -- and having to deal with the expectations and opinions of living, breathing people is the exact opposite of that. I'm in the same boat, hard to find many 60+ year old gamers to buddy up with, only 1 of my friends games and he is strictly solo. There are gamers of all ages with the same tastes and desire for a low key style of play. macynell and papaspud , post a request in one of the LFG threads, I think you'll be surprised how many "chill guilds" and such there are. I was in a clan that had everything from grandchildren (<14) to grandparents (>60) and everything in between. There was definitely a hard core subgroup that could be pretty intense about git gud, but there were also chill subgroups that would team up on a weekend or evening and just hang out for fun, low key. All to underline that point that such groups can be found, if you look for them.
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Doc
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Post by Doc on Feb 18, 2019 0:18:11 GMT
I'll admit to not reading the preceding twelve pages. To answer just the original post: Being forced to play with three other players, in destiny as well as Anthem, I learned to despise this implementation of co-op. The game matchmaker always finds at least one teammate that just speedruns the mission for loot. These games encourage the practice by giving better loot when grouped.
I don't know what's happening in Anthem's story because twice now a teammate blitzed through the dialogue portions of a "story" mission, cutting short the exposition. This is starting to damage the game experience for me. I'm not even getting a chance to learn basic combat principles with that powergamer in every mission basically doing a solo run.
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dingleydell
N1
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
Origin: DingleyDell
Posts: 27 Likes: 97
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dingleydell
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
DingleyDell
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Post by dingleydell on Feb 18, 2019 12:24:29 GMT
I find it hard to believe the question needed to be asked. It also is a little bit finger pointy.... Indeed. I thought it sounded a bit like that too. Every time BioWare throws that line out about playing a game "with your friends," I wince a little bit. I am older and a woman. My friends are all older and are women, and among them, I am the only one who games. I can imagine their looks of horror if I were to suggest they give it a try. Most of them aren't even aware I play. But that's not really the issue, because I do have two grown sons who would be happy to team up with me, and if I asked, my husband would go along for the ride as well. But I've observed the intense pressure of performing as part of a team in online games, and I am simply not of the personality type to regard that as fun or relaxing. I play games for the same reason I read books -- to disconnect from reality for a while, to unwind -- and having to deal with the expectations and opinions of living, breathing people is the exact opposite of that. I am older and a woman too, and none of my friends game. I play for escapism and I'm not competitive, and I will unshamedly play on easy until/unless I am very familiar with a game. I don't know what timezone you are in and what console, but I'd be happy to team up with you for a more chilled approach if you are on PC. My origin ID is DingleyDell.
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correctamundo
N5
Dr Obfuscate
Don't knock the little winds. They're important - for morale.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
Origin: correctamundo1
Prime Posts: A thousand and then some.
Prime Likes: They never liked me! No one likes me!
Posts: 2,830 Likes: 5,270
inherit
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807
0
Nov 10, 2023 13:59:26 GMT
5,270
correctamundo
Don't knock the little winds. They're important - for morale.
2,830
August 2016
correctamundo
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
correctamundo1
A thousand and then some.
They never liked me! No one likes me!
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Post by correctamundo on Feb 18, 2019 15:28:32 GMT
I'll admit to not reading the preceding twelve pages. To answer just the original post: Being forced to play with three other players, in destiny as well as Anthem, I learned to despise this implementation of co-op. The game matchmaker always finds at least one teammate that just speedruns the mission for loot. These games encourage the practice by giving better loot when grouped. I don't know what's happening in Anthem's story because twice now a teammate blitzed through the dialogue portions of a "story" mission, cutting short the exposition. This is starting to damage the game experience for me. I'm not even getting a chance to learn basic combat principles with that powergamer in every mission basically doing a solo run. Wait, how did that happen? I have played every mission in group and not once have there been dialogue choices or skippable dialogue out on mission. There are some cut-scenes on mission but they are not grouped either. All that is in ft Tarsis and no one but myself has any control of things in there. Sure, there are some missions left for me on the crit path but I feel I'm missing something here.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Feb 18, 2019 16:09:30 GMT
I don't know what's happening in Anthem's story because twice now a teammate blitzed through the dialogue portions of a "story" mission, cutting short the exposition. This is starting to damage the game experience for me. I'm not even getting a chance to learn basic combat principles with that powergamer in every mission basically doing a solo run. Wait, how did that happen? I have played every mission in group and not once have there been dialogue choices or skippable dialogue out on mission As I understand it, the dialogue for some of the story missions start as soon as the first player loads into the mission. The last players, who can be delayed for a minute or more, completely miss out on the dialogue. www.reddit.com/r/AnthemTheGame/comments/arig61/psa_only_ever_play_missions_solo_if_you_want_the/
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correctamundo
N5
Dr Obfuscate
Don't knock the little winds. They're important - for morale.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
Origin: correctamundo1
Prime Posts: A thousand and then some.
Prime Likes: They never liked me! No one likes me!
Posts: 2,830 Likes: 5,270
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807
0
Nov 10, 2023 13:59:26 GMT
5,270
correctamundo
Don't knock the little winds. They're important - for morale.
2,830
August 2016
correctamundo
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
correctamundo1
A thousand and then some.
They never liked me! No one likes me!
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Post by correctamundo on Feb 18, 2019 16:24:27 GMT
Ok, but that still isn't another player blitzing through the dialogue. My impression is that there is always a fairly long pause before the cypher/agent start to talk after loading in. We always have time for hero landing, a little emoting and looking around for directions. But sure, if it takes forever to load in.
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monkeylungs
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 766 Likes: 811
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monkeylungs
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monkeylungs
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by monkeylungs on Feb 18, 2019 16:36:34 GMT
You play solo in Anthem because if you don't you have put up with Bioware's horrible implementation of an online experience. You will miss out on dialogue from quest givers, your team will fly ahead and the game will force you into loading screens to catch up (you might miss some more stuff while stuck in that loading screen as well).
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monkeylungs
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 766 Likes: 811
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monkeylungs
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by monkeylungs on Feb 18, 2019 16:38:32 GMT
You play solo in Anthem so you don't accidentally get matchmade into the final mission before you even made it anywhere near the final mission.
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...lives for biotic explosions. And cheesecake!
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Kappa Neko on Feb 18, 2019 18:40:19 GMT
I imagine this "cool" multiplayer game idea came about when Mark Darrah and his other 40+ buddies sat together and pictured a merry group of chill guys just hanging out in a digital world. Doing a bit of fighting, exploring together, enjoying funny banter.
Apparently nobody told them that 80% of all looter shooter players at hyperactive teenage boys who don't care about any of that.
They don't want to make friends with NPCs and won't appreciate you forcing them out of the loot grind into checking up with them. Their reflexes are twice as fast. So they kill everything before you've lined up your perfect shot.
Apparently they were so ill prepared for the possibility that others might troll and stall objectives and stuff that they didn't think about implementing counter measures.
Just like Bethesda was so blindsided by all the cheaters in FO76, lol! And they're still struggling to restore the game to any semblance of fairness.
Man, the way Tod Howard talked about people role-playing together... Yeah right. Welcome to the real world. People are jerks. Not everyone has exactly 3 friends who are interested in the same game or games at all. Has nothing to do with having no friends at all or not enjoying co-op with friends. It's all the random jerks you leave out of the equation.
Everybody but the devs of both games saw the problems coming when they first announced their awesome ideas for co-op gameplay. Two devs with little to no experience wth that type of game. And it shows.
They used to have professional griefer consultants for online game that would tell the devs in how many ways they could exploit the game's mechanics. Ways that people who just innocently imagine a fun time with their friends would never think of.
Even if you don't get that many griefers in games like Anthem, this hybrid design was bound to fail. How anybody thought this would work the way they implemented it is beyond me.
I feel sorry for Bioware. They meant to create something cool. But they really really didn't know how to make it work. That many loading screens and other bafflingly bad choices tells me that either Frostbite is absolute shit for the games Bioware wants to make or Bioware just doesn't understand how to use it well. Or they lack the kind of manpower needed for a good open world design.
I'd throw all my money at them for another corridor shooter RPG with a cinematic narrative. MEA could have been so much less frustrating without that god awful open world design that also had shit like needing to leave a planet to just read an email! Then go back to the same planet you just left for the actual quest. Lots of useless loading screens in that game too. I wanted to tear my hair out. Felt like the devs never even tested these inane quest chains or they would have realized it's zero fun. Felt like somebody who never played a game designed the quests.
I'm sorry but if they can't master this engine and how to write a decent quest chain anymore that doesn't require five pointless extra steps, just STOP. Please, I beg you, stop this nonsense!
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Doc
N2
Posts: 117 Likes: 145
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Post by Doc on Feb 18, 2019 20:48:07 GMT
Wait, how did that happen? What PapaCharlie9 said is accurate. I've been loaded into story missions that were nearly complete. The last players, who can be delayed for a minute or more, completely miss out on the dialogue. Also on more than one occasion, someone has loitered at the next event trigger area*, so as soon as one event was complete (where your Cipher updates you on the situation as you fly to the next spot) the dialogue was cut off by the next triggered event. It's not open world; There are instanced areas in almost every story mission that require loading and can cut off exposition. Doesn't help that there's almost no UI instruction for a grossly unintuitive UI; Took hours of gameplay before even realizing I had the option to solo any missions. *Edit: Also you can just fly past some story elements and load the next area. The game then loads the other three players into that area involuntarily.
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Party like it's 2023!
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kaisershep
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by KaiserShep on Feb 18, 2019 20:55:12 GMT
You play solo in Anthem so you don't accidentally get matchmade into the final mission before you even made it anywhere near the final mission. Matchmaking is a blight. Even on the demo stuff like this was happening. And that's really the thing. You can't really herd a group of randoms into a shared narrative properly, and even if you're in a full group, you'll get those jerks that want to fast-track through things. It's why anything story-critical is something that should never be "experienced with friends". Let those fools experience it elsewhere.
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Thrombin
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
Posts: 895 Likes: 1,300
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
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Post by Thrombin on Feb 18, 2019 21:10:23 GMT
You play solo in Anthem so you don't accidentally get matchmade into the final mission before you even made it anywhere near the final mission. Matchmaking is a blight. Even on the demo stuff like this was happening. And that's really the thing. You can't really herd a group of randoms into a shared narrative properly, and even if you're in a full group, you'll get those jerks that want to fast-track through things. It's why anything story-critical is something that should never be "experienced with friends". Let those fools experience it elsewhere.
To be fair, it would be fine if they really were friends off your friend list who you knew and could rely on. You can fill your party with your real mates and never have to cope with randoms at all.
In any case I don't see what the big deal is if playing it solo is a better experience. I'm glad playing solo is a better experience because that's how I like to play and I've not had a mission yet that I've found too hard to solo on Normal.
It's still fun to join up in Quickplay and assist on missions you've already done and to lend a random a hand in Freeplay while passing through. Once you finish the story that will be the main part of the game I would think.
I know there's a quickplay bug currently that can get you spolled but that will be fixed and I can easily live without Quickplay until it is.
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saandrig
N5
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Posts: 3,382 Likes: 6,964
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by saandrig on Feb 19, 2019 11:13:02 GMT
Since I am pretty much done with all the content the game has to offer (except grind it all over again at GM difficulties), I can offer to all solo PC players who will start on the 22nd to feel free to invite me (Origin name - Saandrig) in their Private group if you need help.
I don't rush Objectives, won't activate quest items instead of you and can help you tackle the fights. I even stop to gather resources (no clue why since I don't craft 😀). That pretty much sums up every Anthem mission.
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jamiecotc
N2
Abby... Normal.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
Origin: JamieCOTC
Posts: 196 Likes: 386
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Abby... Normal.
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jamiecotc
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
JamieCOTC
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Post by jamiecotc on Feb 19, 2019 20:57:16 GMT
1. As so many have stated before, I like to play at my own pace. 2. I have tried both MP and MMOs. ME3MP was a lot of fun, but after a while it became a grind, very repetitive, (Anthem feels the same way, tbh). As for MMOs, (ESO, TOR, Secret World), I tend to play them solo, but in doing so, they become a grind. I don't like grinding. 3. I'm on PC and literally all my gaming friends are either on consoles or live in Narnia or some shit. 4. I play games to escape, to get away from people. Some kid blaring over my speakers or into my headphones is not my idea of fun. 5. Mods.
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patriciachr34
N2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 146 Likes: 359
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146
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patriciachr34
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by patriciachr34 on Feb 19, 2019 23:09:51 GMT
Indeed. I thought it sounded a bit like that too. Every time BioWare throws that line out about playing a game "with your friends," I wince a little bit. I am older and a woman. My friends are all older and are women, and among them, I am the only one who games. I can imagine their looks of horror if I were to suggest they give it a try. Most of them aren't even aware I play. But that's not really the issue, because I do have two grown sons who would be happy to team up with me, and if I asked, my husband would go along for the ride as well. But I've observed the intense pressure of performing as part of a team in online games, and I am simply not of the personality type to regard that as fun or relaxing. I play games for the same reason I read books -- to disconnect from reality for a while, to unwind -- and having to deal with the expectations and opinions of living, breathing people is the exact opposite of that. I'm in the same boat, hard to find many 60+ year old gamers to buddy up with, only 1 of my friends games and he is strictly solo. I'm an almost 55 yo female. So, I'm in the same boat as y'all. The only difference is my husband does not game and I have no children to play with. That being said, the party generator works quite well. You get thrown out there with a bunch of strangers that do not require any social interaction. In some ways it's better than being partied with a bunch of NPC's. Real people are better at taking down bosses than NPC's ever will be. I've only had one whole party wipe. All of us were surprised by a sudden boss appearance. With other party matches, there is always someone you can resurrect or who will resurrect you when you go down. So far no real awful people (knock on wood). Plus, you only get auto partied when doing quests. Free play is all you soloing the mobs.
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Post by rumblecatdad on Feb 20, 2019 15:34:53 GMT
Playing solo means I get to play a MY pace and not worry about having to run and gun at the pace where the lead players is and then get teleported to them.
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Praise the Justicat!
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Post by Pounce de León on Feb 20, 2019 17:41:01 GMT
I guess I have a good idea now why Warframe cinematic quests a strictly solo. They often introduce new mechanics too. They simply cant afford to be screwed by matchmaking. Imo, these are essential lessons that should have already been learned.
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helios969
N4
Kamisama
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Origin: helios969
Prime Posts: No Clue
Prime Likes: Who Cares
Posts: 1,853 Likes: 2,478
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Kamisama
1,853
August 2016
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
helios969
No Clue
Who Cares
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Post by helios969 on Feb 20, 2019 20:10:21 GMT
I'm an almost 55 yo female. So, I'm in the same boat as y'all. The only difference is my husband does not game and I have no children to play with. That being said, the party generator works quite well. You get thrown out there with a bunch of strangers that do not require any social interaction. In some ways it's better than being partied with a bunch of NPC's. Real people are better at taking down bosses than NPC's ever will be. I've only had one whole party wipe. All of us were surprised by a sudden boss appearance. With other party matches, there is always someone you can resurrect or who will resurrect you when you go down. So far no real awful people (knock on wood). Plus, you only get auto partied when doing quests. Free play is all you soloing the mobs. Finally, someone who gets it. I'm approaching 30 hours and primarily use matchmaking. I think I've heard 2 people on mic...both asking for a revive...and not a peep beyond that. From what I've seen it works really well.
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