ahglock
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
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Post by ahglock on Feb 22, 2019 22:58:52 GMT
Too be fair in a entertainment medium popularity is a pretty objective measure. An objective measure of what? I certainly hope you don't mean quality, because there's absolutely nothing objective about media criticism. What is the goal of making a commercial entertainment product? Sales sure, but what else. Maybe some artistic merit parts, but the goal of entertainment is generally for people to enjoy it. So people generally enjoying it more is a pretty objective measure of its success in meeting one of its primary goals. It’s one thing if we are arguing about a unknown product that you think is stellar. But if both products have equal access to people’s voices yeah I’m going to say there is some merit to the argument that the entertainment product that brought the most entertainment was objectively better. And people voicing there opinions on a large scale is a pretty good way to gauge that.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 22, 2019 22:59:37 GMT
Are you asking about 50 Shades or Dragon Age games? I'm not asking for the Bioware Defense Force. Anyway, been fun. Um, okay. I was just trying to know what you were asking about so it could be answered but fine, be that way.
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Post by slimgrin727 on Feb 22, 2019 23:04:24 GMT
I'm not asking for the Bioware Defense Force. Anyway, been fun. Um, okay. I was just trying to know what you were asking about so it could be answered but fine, be that way. Fairly clumsy trolling mate.
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Post by Gwydden on Feb 22, 2019 23:12:28 GMT
What is the goal of making a commercial entertainment product? Irrelevant. The purpose of Paradise Lost was to "explain God's ways to man." In that respect, I find it utterly unconvincing, but that doesn't stop me from considering it one of the greatest works of literature in the English language. Something is objective if it exists independent of any given subject's experience of it. The stated quality of a piece of media is the result of a subject's interaction with it. It doesn't matter whether one person or a billion thinks it's the greatest or the worst thing ever, it is just as subjective.
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Post by slimgrin727 on Feb 22, 2019 23:16:34 GMT
What is the goal of making a commercial entertainment product? Irrelevant. The purpose of Paradise Lost was to "explain God's ways to man." In that respect, I find it utterly unconvincing, but that doesn't stop me from considering it one of the greatest works of literature in the English language. Something is objective if it exists independent of any given subject's experience of it. The stated quality of a piece of media is the result of a subject's interaction with it. It doesn't matter whether one person or a billion thinks it's the greatest or the worst thing ever, it is just as subjective. Everything is relative guys... And you criticized my take?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2019 23:17:39 GMT
I remember My strong desire to play a merciless, ruthless Qunari inquisitor with a dirty mind from a mercenary background. But that was before I got the game into my hands as well. A stupid dream, though It was possible before....
This inquisitor just ended up being a bland, boring, polite, neutral, diplomatic, sanitized inquisitor, not at all different from a human inquisitor, with zero chances or close to make any difference from that tone.
I deleted my playthrough, boring. Not interested..
That experience, it's DA:I.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Feb 22, 2019 23:20:49 GMT
Needs more adjectives.
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Post by Gwydden on Feb 22, 2019 23:22:47 GMT
And you criticized my take? Every review, every bit of criticism directed at art of media is "just" an opinion. But some opinions are better than others. Say I'm scrolling down Steam reviews, hoping to learn something substantial about the game and someone's experience with it, and all I see are "10/10 BEST GAME EVER!!!!" and "9.9 user score in Metacritic, nuff said."
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2019 23:23:02 GMT
A game can be measured by how much it sells, how much it is praised by the fanbase and casual foks, how much it is acclaimed by critics and rewarded.
You can compare two games that way. Yes.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2019 23:23:57 GMT
I wanted to add uninteresting, but I thought boring and bland were enough.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Feb 22, 2019 23:48:47 GMT
I wanted to add uninteresting, but I thought boring and bland were enough. Flavourless, plain, hollow, shallow, vapid. But for srs, you already have plenty of adjectives.
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Post by caladrius on Feb 22, 2019 23:54:19 GMT
I’ve like every DA game, but Inquisition was honestly my least favorite. While it was my least favorite, I don’t understand claims that the “tone” was different, or that it was inconsistent, or in some way “sanitized”. I would really like to hear how people think there was a major shift in tone. I feel like some people confuse the narrative tone with the aesthetic of pretty forests and southern French style villas with Kirkwall being one big blood stain of a city with rusty spikes for guard rails, but those aren’t actual indicators of maturity or darkness.
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Post by witchcocktor on Feb 23, 2019 0:23:19 GMT
I love it when dark shit happens in a beautiful scenery in broad daylight. Yes okay people are dying in horrible ways but LOOK AT THIS AWESOME VIEW, THE SUN IS SHINING, OH MY GOODDDNEEESSS!! Like Cassandra's personal quest, that place was BEAUTIFUL even if nothing about the quest had anything to do with nice things.
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Post by wickedcool on Feb 23, 2019 0:52:06 GMT
Must have More dungeons in da4 than in anthem
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Post by Nightscrawl on Feb 23, 2019 1:05:00 GMT
For those touting sale figures: Source.Let that sink in. The most successful launch in Bioware history. Also, they are not legally allowed to lie on these earnings reports. Keep in mind that this is after the lackluster performance of DA2. Players bought DAI in record numbers despite many of them not liking DA2. EA gave DA another chance and Bioware more than proved its worth.
So if you're trying to use sales as some sort of barometer, then DAI is pretty damn good.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2019 1:49:03 GMT
For those touting sale figures: Source.Let that sink in. The most successful launch in Bioware history. Also, they are not legally allowed to lie on these earnings reports. Keep in mind that this is after the lackluster performance of DA2. Players bought DAI in record numbers despite many of them not liking DA2. EA gave DA another chance and Bioware more than proved its worth.
So if you're trying to use sales as some sort of barometer, then DAI is pretty damn good.
Successful launch. The key words. Best launch =/ total sales. That simply means it had the strongest sales during the first weeks, that doesn't mean it was the best on the long term. The fact that they are carefully chosing these words is telling actually. ( I work in a company and we always have to put things in a good perspective, to create a positive narrative, before our investors and our customers even when the figures are not that good. So I'd advise you to not totally trust any public statement made by any company ) Bioware is usually strong in the first weeks before it becomes slower. Funny and interesting how Bioware never brought the figures themself with dragon age inquisition while they did it with Mass effect 3, their biggest game with 6 millions units sold. I certainly do not believe one bit that any dragon age game has beaten Mass effect 3, not even close to 6 millions units; With vGchartz, it gave something close to 2,2 millions units sold, which is indeed a success compared to the 1, 3 millions units sold in 10 weeks with DAII, but less compared to DA:O, more than 3 millions of units. www.destructoid.com/surprise-dragon-age-origins-sold-well-162984.phtml. In the end it was even more than 4 millions. I wonder why EA didn't give us the figures, if it was the really the most successful game ever. I already know why, it's just a narrative. Again, I work in a company, I know how it works and I'm not naïve. Dragon age origins had a normal launch and yet, it was the most enduring in the long term, people that kept buying that game even years after. I have no doubts that dragon age inquisition was solid, but no, I doubt it sold more than DA:O. It probably cost them less to create DA:I a bit streamlined, so maybe they made more profits, but that's something else.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Feb 23, 2019 1:51:37 GMT
That just makes it more baffling that they would put DA on the backburner in favour of a new IP in the already over-crowded multiplayer market.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2019 1:55:20 GMT
Oh yes, on that we can agree. With that ridiculous decision, they badly affected the developpment of Mass effect Andromeda and delayed Dragon age. Good job EA.
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apollexander
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by apollexander on Feb 23, 2019 5:02:37 GMT
While the activity in the hub is a big issue, there is a deeper issue of the hub. The hub feels isolated from the outside world. What you do in Skyhold/Normandy/Tempest is largely different from what you do in the wild. This breaks the immersion and the consistence of the world. But that's kind of the point of having a home base, isn't it? Someplace to go where you can not be shot at, and do all the stuff you don't get to do when you're someplace where people are likely to shoot at you. I'm fine with the concept of home base. However, Bioware tends to make the home base bigger and bigger, and you have lots of things to do in the base (different from what you do outside). You just have to keep moving between the base and the world, to deal with things. Just look at Anthem, it's like two completely different gameplays in Fort Tarsis and in Bastion. I really hate that from the perspective of role-playing.
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Post by river82 on Feb 23, 2019 5:33:35 GMT
That just makes it more baffling that they would put DA on the backburner in favour of a new IP in the already over-crowded multiplayer market.In a genre (looter shooter) they knew little about
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Post by pessimistpanda on Feb 23, 2019 5:38:02 GMT
That just makes it more baffling that they would put DA on the backburner in favour of a new IP in the already over-crowded multiplayer market.In a genre (looter shooter) they knew little about I don't think the genre matters as much as the fact that there are already plenty of multiplayer games out there that people can enjoy for free. That said, I don't really 'do' multiplayer, and don't know if there are distinct markets for all the different genres. For me, the major appeal would be playing with friends, and the genre doesn't particularly matter. If people I cared about were getting Anthem on PS4, I would too.
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Post by Ieldra on Feb 23, 2019 7:38:15 GMT
*Sigh* Why do I even bother?
You didn't even engage my argument, instead proclaiming you can't take me seriously for...something I never said. Well, let's say I can't take someone seriously who can't look at things without a modicum of detachment. Or is this personal?
I can't engage, because it's meaningless. Whether or not something has emotional or intellectual impact is entirely up to the individual, and doesn't actually speak to the quality of the work at all. Unless you, finally, of all people on the forum, can SPECIFICALLY tell me what DAO had that DAI lacks, instead of making broad claims about 'sanitization', I'm going to assume you hold the same opinion as most everyone else on this forum, who, when you get right down to it, are just butthurt that video games don't cater exclusively to them anymore. So. In the interest of helping me understand what it is you actually want, give me some concrete examples. DAO is better than DAI because it had _____________________ I've mentioned Hespith's story before. Her story makes you shudder, does it not. Consider, as a comparison, the story the dying red templar at Suledin Keep tells you about how red lyrium was grown in his body. Does it make you shudder the same way?
As for your assuptions about me, no, I do not mind that at all. In fact, I have engaged with some of that content you think I do not want - and liked it. Oh, and all of my Inquisitors are women and I have played more gay romances than straight ones. What I do cricitize is that people like you see everything, absolutely everything through that lens, so that it becomes the dominant aspect by which to judge any piece of storytelling, and that attitude, yes, I fucking well hate with a passion. And btw, I hate the same attitude on the other side, too. All kinds of this disgusting "Bohoo, *insert your favorite faction* isn't catered to enough [any more/as yet]". It is the main reason why I often argue against including romance in story-based games at all these days. I don't know what it will take to make you believe my concerns in that regard are about the negative impact of the way people talk about this (and it *is* more about people talking about it than about what Bioware actually did, most of the time) on world integrity and verisimilitude in storytelling (not just in video games btw), but I do know my own mind, believe me.
*This* topic is not about that at all. This is about a lack of emotional impact, about the impression that Bioware toned that down, particularly in the bad stuff, from DAO and DA2 to DAI. It's not a worldbuilding concern, not about verisimilitude in storytelling, but about how we are presented with, plainly, the story's evil. I can't even put a finger on exactly why it is so. Maybe it's overcompensation from DA2, where the same was ridiculously overdone. In DA2 things weren't believable (and that, btw, was a problem of lacking verisimilitude in storytelling), and so the extremes made you groan or laugh instead of shudder. DAO, meanwhile, got it right. The thing is, you don't need extremes. You don't need gratuitous violence all over the place, or the ubiquitous rape you think I want. What you need is precision strikes. You only need rare instances, but where you have them they must hit home. And in DAI they don't.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 23, 2019 7:49:59 GMT
I can't engage, because it's meaningless. Whether or not something has emotional or intellectual impact is entirely up to the individual, and doesn't actually speak to the quality of the work at all. Unless you, finally, of all people on the forum, can SPECIFICALLY tell me what DAO had that DAI lacks, instead of making broad claims about 'sanitization', I'm going to assume you hold the same opinion as most everyone else on this forum, who, when you get right down to it, are just butthurt that video games don't cater exclusively to them anymore. So. In the interest of helping me understand what it is you actually want, give me some concrete examples. DAO is better than DAI because it had _____________________ I've mentioned Hespith's story before. Her story makes you shudder, does it not. Consider, as a comparison, the story the dying red templar at Suledin Keep tells you about how red lyrium was grown in his body. Does it make you shudder the same way?
As for your assuptions about me, no, I do not mind that at all. In fact, I have engaged with some of that content you think I do not want - and liked it. What I do cricitize is that people like you see everything, absolutely everything through that lens, so that it becomes the dominant aspect by which to judge any piece of storytelling, and that attitude, yes, I fucking well hate with a passion. And btw, I hate the same attitude on the other side, too. All kinds of this disgusting "Bohoo, *insert your favorite faction* isn't catered to enough [any more/as yet]". It is the main reason why I often argue against including romance in story-based games at all these days. I don't know what it will take to make you believe my concerns in that regard are about the negative impact of the way people talk about this (and it *is* more about people talking about it than about what Bioware actually did, most of the time) on world integrity and verisimilitude in storytelling (not just in video games btw), but I do know my own mind, believe me.
*This* topic is not about that at all. This is about a lack of emotional impact, about the impression that Bioware toned that down, particularly in the bad stuff, from DAO and DA2 to DAI. It's not a worldbuilding concern, not about verisimilitude in storytelling, but about how we are presented with, plainly, the story's evil. I can't even put a finger on exactly why it is so. Maybe it's overcompensation from DA2, where the same was ridiculously overdone. In DA2 things weren't believable (and that, btw, was a problem of lacking verisimilitude in storytelling), and so the extremes made you groan or laugh instead of shudder. DAO, meanwhile, got it right. The thing is, you don't need extremes. You don't need gratuitous violence all over the place, or the ubiquitous rape you think I want. What you need is precision strikes. You only need rare instances, but where you have them they must hit home. And in DAI they don't. it made me shudder nearly that badly. That scene and implications are HORRIBLE. I mean hell i wonder if the problem is that DA has been sanitized but if weve been decensitized.
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Post by Ieldra on Feb 23, 2019 11:07:54 GMT
I've mentioned Hespith's story before. Her story makes you shudder, does it not. Consider, as a comparison, the story the dying red templar at Suledin Keep tells you about how red lyrium was grown in his body. Does it make you shudder the same way?
As for your assuptions about me, no, I do not mind that at all. In fact, I have engaged with some of that content you think I do not want - and liked it. What I do cricitize is that people like you see everything, absolutely everything through that lens, so that it becomes the dominant aspect by which to judge any piece of storytelling, and that attitude, yes, I fucking well hate with a passion. And btw, I hate the same attitude on the other side, too. All kinds of this disgusting "Bohoo, *insert your favorite faction* isn't catered to enough [any more/as yet]". It is the main reason why I often argue against including romance in story-based games at all these days. I don't know what it will take to make you believe my concerns in that regard are about the negative impact of the way people talk about this (and it *is* more about people talking about it than about what Bioware actually did, most of the time) on world integrity and verisimilitude in storytelling (not just in video games btw), but I do know my own mind, believe me.
*This* topic is not about that at all. This is about a lack of emotional impact, about the impression that Bioware toned that down, particularly in the bad stuff, from DAO and DA2 to DAI. It's not a worldbuilding concern, not about verisimilitude in storytelling, but about how we are presented with, plainly, the story's evil. I can't even put a finger on exactly why it is so. Maybe it's overcompensation from DA2, where the same was ridiculously overdone. In DA2 things weren't believable (and that, btw, was a problem of lacking verisimilitude in storytelling), and so the extremes made you groan or laugh instead of shudder. DAO, meanwhile, got it right. The thing is, you don't need extremes. You don't need gratuitous violence all over the place, or the ubiquitous rape you think I want. What you need is precision strikes. You only need rare instances, but where you have them they must hit home. And in DAI they don't. it made me shudder nearly that badly. That scene and implications are HORRIBLE. I mean hell i wonder if the problem is that DA has been sanitized but if weve been decensitized. I thought about that, but....not if Hespith's story still comes across as horrible as it did in 2009. And if Leandra's conversion still strikes you the same way as it did 2011. I think a part of the problem is that DAI's horror is both less personal and less specific. That templar, for instance, just makes hints about what Imshael wanted him to do. No specifics. No idea if it actually was that horrible. And it was just a random red templar, he didn't even have a name. Also, Hespith was driven insane, and that came across well. The only scene in DAI that attempts something similar is Leliana in In Hushed Whispers. I'm not quite sure why it doesn't stick in our minds as well as Hespith's scene. Perhaps it's that Leliana shrugs it off rather casually. I recall I had that same premonition I had in DAO's Deep Roads when I realized what was happening to Leliana, but ..... the story didn't keep it up, and the tone she takes with Dorian doesn't help.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 23, 2019 11:31:31 GMT
I was actually more disturbed by the Red Templar than either Hespith or Leandra.
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