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Post by river82 on Feb 21, 2019 8:59:05 GMT
i think you missed my point. I wasnt saying that you should have a set number of one type of character but that the characters you do have, whatever they are, should be what is best to tell the story you want to tell. Quotas and artificial limits are secondary to a good story. I think we are talking about different things because yeah, I admit, I am missing the point. All I'm saying is that '' quotas '' are often used to demean and complain about LGBT characters, that they are all just filling a quota. But in the end, our surrounding culture already places artificial limits to big money making titles (especially), when it comes to what kind of characters, and how many, they are allowed to have. But rarely do people who complain about quotas criticize that. Maybe, I don't know. I think you both make excellent points David Gaider already talked about how he couldn't have as many gay characters as he wanted (like in KOTOR) in the games he worked on because Bioware needed to sell x amount of copies, x is quite the large number, and the Publisher (capital P) felt it was too much of a Risk (capital R). I would point out that people rarely criticise them placing artificial limits explicitly, but they often complain about the "safeness" of AAA gaming or Hollywood movies which encompass a variety of things and include, I would hope anyway, those artificial limits
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Post by Zemgus on Feb 21, 2019 9:27:22 GMT
As far as me personally I am not a big fan of 'fairness' or 'equality' in such things because that implies a quoata. And quoatas imply articial limitations on the craft and process of writing. Have as many straight characters that you want to, have as many gay characters, but the goal should be to tell the best story and not satisfy certain boxes. This is really cute in theory but we live in a world where a product that is heavy in LGBT characters is not a gold mine by any means, and that it's not possibly ever a safe route, rather a risk. This means there will always be an '' artificial limitation '' because of the culture we live in, which in then affects how many (important) LGBT characters a piece of media can have, and how much time and space they get to develop beyond just being shallow representation. But hey, I'd be glad to be proven wrong. Back in the day there was a tv series called The L Word. I just googled it and according to wikipedia "The show's first season was 'broadcast to critical acclaim and instant popularity.'" There was also this very interesting quote I found there from one of the producers of the show: "I do want to move people on some deep level. But I won't take on the mantle of social responsibility. That's not compatible with entertainment. I rail against the idea that pop television is a political medium. I am political in my life. But I am making serialized melodrama. I'm not a cultural missionary."That's exactly what I'm talking about and how I feel about this subject. I've seen PW boast about how he's making a difference in the world by bringing real life politics and issues into video games. That's concerning to me, because when it comes to video games all I care about is how good the story is and having a good time. Escapism.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Feb 21, 2019 9:55:39 GMT
Real life politics is ever-present in all media, author intent is irrelevent. Leaving minorities out is just as revealing as putting them in.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Feb 21, 2019 11:09:08 GMT
Back in the day there was a tv series called The L Word. I just googled it and according to wikipedia "The show's first season was 'broadcast to critical acclaim and instant popularity.'" You do understand that's about a bunch of lesbians, right? And that it frequently featured lesbian sex? You only have to hear a bunch of straight guys talking about how hot the show is (and I have) to understand one key to its popularity. Citing a show where a chunk of the audience fetishized its characters is not the greatest example.
I'm assuming you brought up that example to respond to WC's assertion that such content is "a risk." The L Word was broadcast on Showtime, a premium cable channel. Those channels can afford to take risks because of their financial model; they're not beholden to advertisers. Starz is quite LGBT friendly (see: Black Sails and its main m/m relationship), but that is also a premium channel with more of a niche audience; they know what their audience is and can finance content for them.
To your other point, whether she wanted to engage in politics or not, by creating the show, and in Showtime paying for and broadcasting it, they were making a political statement by saying, "We believe there is value in telling the stories of these women." Creators don't have to say anything at all about their work. Most of the time, the work speaks for itself. Once the work is available for public consumption, the creator has no control over how other people perceive it. Charles Barkley also famously said, "I am not a role model." But he doesn't get to decide that. Whether kids look[ed] up to him wasn't something he could control.
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Post by Zemgus on Feb 21, 2019 11:32:23 GMT
Back in the day there was a tv series called The L Word. I just googled it and according to wikipedia "The show's first season was 'broadcast to critical acclaim and instant popularity.'" You do understand that's about a bunch of lesbians, right? And that it frequently featured lesbian sex? You only have to hear a bunch of straight guys talking about how hot the show is (and I have) to understand one key to its popularity. Citing a show where a chunk of the audience fetishized its characters is not the greatest example.
Maybe I'm just not that pessimistic but I doubt straight guys with lesbian sex fetish were the main reason that show was an international success. Saying something like it's a fact just don't seem right.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Feb 21, 2019 11:39:08 GMT
Maybe I'm just not that pessimistic but I doubt straight guys with lesbian sex fetish were the main reason that show was an international success. Saying something like it's a fact just don't seem right. I didn't say that at all. I said ONE key, which means a part. You can't twist things to your own meaning when you use an actual quote.
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Post by Zemgus on Feb 21, 2019 12:02:13 GMT
Maybe I'm just not that pessimistic but I doubt straight guys with lesbian sex fetish were the main reason that show was an international success. Saying something like it's a fact just don't seem right. I didn't say that at all. I said ONE key, which means a part. You can't twist things to your own meaning when you use an actual quote. I don't see how some random people being weirdos makes The L Word a bad example but okay.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2019 12:31:01 GMT
This is really cute in theory but we live in a world where a product that is heavy in LGBT characters is not a gold mine by any means, and that it's not possibly ever a safe route, rather a risk. This means there will always be an '' artificial limitation '' because of the culture we live in, which in then affects how many (important) LGBT characters a piece of media can have, and how much time and space they get to develop beyond just being shallow representation. But hey, I'd be glad to be proven wrong. Back in the day there was a tv series called The L Word. I just googled it and according to wikipedia "The show's first season was 'broadcast to critical acclaim and instant popularity.'" There was also this very interesting quote I found there from one of the producers of the show: "I do want to move people on some deep level. But I won't take on the mantle of social responsibility. That's not compatible with entertainment. I rail against the idea that pop television is a political medium. I am political in my life. But I am making serialized melodrama. I'm not a cultural missionary."That's exactly what I'm talking about and how I feel about this subject. I've seen PW boast about how he's making a difference in the world by bringing real life politics and issues into video games. That's concerning to me, because when it comes to video games all I care about is how good the story is and having a good time. Escapism. That woman is totally right. And this is why Alita and Wonderwoman who portray women heroes are loved by men as much as they are considered as badass, and why Captain Marvel already full of political bullshit and feminism will bomb very hard while it is not even released yet, controversies that keep coming. The projections for that movie dropping so hard, it's almost tragic compared to the initial previsions. The same happened to Ghostboster reboot, that flopped, full of SJW bullshit. The ridiculous mainstream media as usual are lying, already blaming the mysoginist haters that can't stand women as protagonists ( If that was the case, wonderwoman wouldn't have been so successful with a lot of men enjoying the movie ? ) , while it's just that people don't want their movie to be full of SJW bullshit. Nobody gives a shit about your cultural and political missionary, that's not what a game or a movie is made for. ( though Brie Larson alone with all her unbelieveable declarations against white males could be considered as mostly responsible of that result ) People regardless of who they are, are able to enjoy movies or games when you made it sure it was first about doing a good movie or a good game, no preaching, about giving a good time to the audience. I don't really trust Patrick Weekes anyway. I don't forget his past declarations, what he has done with Krem. he is a SJW and I expect SJW things in the next DA. But hey, maybe he learned a few lessons with the heavy hand. We'll see. Maybe Bioware will be smart and will understand that if they don't treat that game like cultural and political missionary, it could be good.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Feb 21, 2019 12:51:46 GMT
Lol, being incapable of perceiving the political content of a film doesn't suddenly mean it doesn't exist. Star Wars is intensely political, and absolutely chock full of social justice morals. I guess that's why LucasFilm went bankrupt and we never saw another one.
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Post by apollexander on Feb 21, 2019 12:55:17 GMT
So guys are asking for a mature game without politics?
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Post by ComedicSociopathy on Feb 21, 2019 13:00:05 GMT
You haven't even watched the movie yet. You don't know what your talking about and your condemning it without actual evidence of the problem that you think it has. Watch the movie before you start bitching all how awful is it and chill out. Also, this is off topic as all Hell.
In regard to Krem. You keep saying SJW and heavy-handed without even bothering to explain what exactly you felt was wrong with Krem's depiction and role in the narrative using examples. All that tells me is that you had a vague feeling that no one here can even argue against because its such a non-descript and vacuous complaint. It also tells me that you think resorting to name calling is a good replacement for an actual argument.
If you have an issue with Krem and think his existence shows signs that Weekes is a bad writer than do the hard work of actually describing in narrative and literal terms why Krem is poorly executed.
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Post by ComedicSociopathy on Feb 21, 2019 13:08:01 GMT
So guys are asking for a mature game without politics? You can't have politics that you disagree with in your game if their are no politics. But all seriousness, Dragon Age without politics (aka ideas on morality, right and wrong, and good and evil) would be... not Dragon Age. Hell, it won't be much of anything really.
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Post by Ieldra on Feb 21, 2019 14:36:29 GMT
I mean in the context of my affiliation with Dragon Age versus Pessimist Panda’s. Again, my only concern is Dragon Age. If you want to have a conversation about LGBT representation in other series, I’ll gladly hear your grievances and offer my support. But when it comes to this series, I will not be pushed out quietly. I have planted my flag here and I will surrender no ground. I sincerely hope that is the case. But as you may have noticed, PP just made the argument that we can’t all have an equal share. I think you're taking this far too seriously. But I mean if LGBT people could play ME1 and ME2 with no romance and still enjoy the games then straight people can too. Romances are just a small part of the experience, after all. They're not the most important part. But I hate it when people become entitled... like what happened with Andromeda when people were whining about LGBT romances being "unfair." That game had so many issues like writing wise and stuff, not being able to fuck aliens should have been the last concern! That pisses me of. And of course Bioware went and "fed the trolls" making public apologies and shit, plus adding new content just because of them... well that I don't mind 'cause new content is always a plus for everyone. But honestly that game had much larger issues than a token transgender characters dialogue not being 100% politically correct and triggering the extra sensitive people of todays world. An observation:
I'm now playing Pathfinder: Kingmaker. It has romanceable companions. And....I have no idea of their sexual orientation. I actually suspect they're all available for anyone, i.e. "playersexual". Which didn't work for me in DA2 because I got the impression they were all bi, which I found nonsensical, but it actually does work for me in Pathfinder: Kingmaker, and I think I know why: nobody makes a big issue of it. I have read neither complaints from some interest groups that they weren't catered to enough nor complaints about "the damn SJWs ruining everything again". Everyone just appears to take ownership of their story in the way that's only possible with a playersexual design.
Because of my experiences in DA2, I was against player-sexuality, but I'm changing my opinion. No more exclusivity for anyone. If that means it's impossible, for instance, to be a fan of a character romance just because it's a gay/straight/whatever romance, then, as far as I'm concerned, that's exactly how things should be. If that means I have to stretch my imagination to make me feel my romance companion is exclusive in some way, then so be it. We have the illusion of choice and we live with it, so why not do the same with illusion of exclusivity?
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Post by leadintea on Feb 21, 2019 15:07:15 GMT
I think you're taking this far too seriously. But I mean if LGBT people could play ME1 and ME2 with no romance and still enjoy the games then straight people can too. Romances are just a small part of the experience, after all. They're not the most important part. But I hate it when people become entitled... like what happened with Andromeda when people were whining about LGBT romances being "unfair." That game had so many issues like writing wise and stuff, not being able to fuck aliens should have been the last concern! That pisses me of. And of course Bioware went and "fed the trolls" making public apologies and shit, plus adding new content just because of them... well that I don't mind 'cause new content is always a plus for everyone. But honestly that game had much larger issues than a token transgender characters dialogue not being 100% politically correct and triggering the extra sensitive people of todays world. An observation:
I'm now playing Pathfinder: Kingmaker. It has romanceable companions. And....I have no idea of their sexual orientation. I actually suspect they're all available for anyone, i.e. "playersexual". Which didn't work for me in DA2 because I got the impression they were all bi, which I found nonsensical, but it actually does work for me in Pathfinder: Kingmaker, and I think I know why: nobody makes a big issue of it. I have read neither complaints from some interest groups that they weren't catered to enough nor complaints about "the damn SJWs ruining everything again". Everyone just appears to take ownership of their story in the way that's only possible with a playersexual design.
Because of my experiences in DA2, I was against player-sexuality, but I'm changing my opinion. No more exclusivity for anyone. If that means it's impossible, for instance, to be a fan of a character romance just because it's a gay/straight/whatever romance, then, as far as I'm concerned, that's exactly how things should be. If that means I have to stretch my imagination to make me feel my romance companion is exclusive in some way, then so be it. We have the illusion of choice and we live with it, so why not do the same with illusion of exclusivity?
Pathfinder DOES have exclusive orientation. Two straight characters and two bisexual characters, like in DAO. Also the difference between illusion of choice and illusion of exclusivity is that the former is solely based on the player, while the latter involves an established character, whose sexuality can influence their character. I can try to pretend that Zevran is solely a gay character, but then he talks about his relationships with women ad nauseum and basically says he prefers them more than men, so that illusion is broken.
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Post by witchcocktor on Feb 21, 2019 15:26:21 GMT
This is really cute in theory but we live in a world where a product that is heavy in LGBT characters is not a gold mine by any means, and that it's not possibly ever a safe route, rather a risk. This means there will always be an '' artificial limitation '' because of the culture we live in, which in then affects how many (important) LGBT characters a piece of media can have, and how much time and space they get to develop beyond just being shallow representation. But hey, I'd be glad to be proven wrong. I've seen PW boast about how he's making a difference in the world by bringing real life politics and issues into video games. That's concerning to me, because when it comes to video games all I care about is how good the story is and having a good time. Escapism. I really don't.. like, I really don't care about what some specific person has to say about their product or what they do. For how MUCH people want to say '' DON'T BRING POLITICS INTO VIDEO GAMES '' they certainly like to pick at the subject constantly. I, personally, haven't played any game where I felt that there is hamfisted politics. Not DA:I, not even MEA, even though it was a really terrible game. There might be moments of awkwardness with how transparently progressive the writers are trying to be, but those instances are like 10 seconds out of a 60 hour game. I just don't see any reason for me to get defensive about it. A lot of people use all kinds of media as a form of escapism. And for some people, they want to escape into a world with women who don't look like barbies, a world with several LGBT characters, a world with a lot of POC.. but some people see their existence as a political agenda. So who gets to use entertainment as an escapism method? We shall never know.
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Post by Little Bengel on Feb 21, 2019 16:02:45 GMT
I've seen PW boast about how he's making a difference in the world by bringing real life politics and issues into video games. That's concerning to me, because when it comes to video games all I care about is how good the story is and having a good time. Escapism. I really don't.. like, I really don't care about what some specific person has to say about their product or what they do. For how MUCH people want to say '' DON'T BRING POLITICS INTO VIDEO GAMES '' they certainly like to pick at the subject constantly. I, personally, haven't played any game where I felt that there is hamfisted politics. Not DA:I, not even MEA, even though it was a really terrible game. There might be moments of awkwardness with how transparently progressive the writers are trying to be, but those instances are like 10 seconds out of a 60 hour game. I just don't see any reason for me to get defensive about it. A lot of people use all kinds of media as a form of escapism. And for some people, they want to escape into a world with women who don't look like barbies, a world with several LGBT characters, a world with a lot of POC.. but some people see their existence as a political agenda. So who gets to use entertainment as an escapism method? We shall never know. I think you might've hit the nail on the head with the bolded part there, honestly. The issue doesn't lie with the writers wanting to put progressive undertones in the game - it's the blatancy with which they end up doing so. Although using that term makes it seem to be always wrong to be upfront with it when it's not always the case. Dorian's quest comes to mind.
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Post by biggydx on Feb 21, 2019 16:33:38 GMT
This thread has gone all over the place
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Post by Ieldra on Feb 21, 2019 16:49:30 GMT
So guys are asking for a mature game without politics? No, I'm asking for a game with mature politics.
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Post by thats1evildude on Feb 21, 2019 17:18:04 GMT
A lot of people use all kinds of media as a form of escapism. And for some people, they want to escape into a world with women who don't look like barbies, a world with several LGBT characters, a world with a lot of POC.. but some people see their existence as a political agenda. So who gets to use entertainment as an escapism method? We shall never know. Well, that’s the problem, isn’t it? We all can’t get what we want. I want the series to stay roughly where it is right now, with perhaps a touch more darkness. Some want it to become the Sword of Truth, while others want it become She-Ra and the Princesses of Power. My fear is that the devs (and Weekes in particular) will prioritize the latter group, which in my opinion would be as bad as the other option.
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Post by witchcocktor on Feb 21, 2019 17:22:19 GMT
A lot of people use all kinds of media as a form of escapism. And for some people, they want to escape into a world with women who don't look like barbies, a world with several LGBT characters, a world with a lot of POC.. but some people see their existence as a political agenda. So who gets to use entertainment as an escapism method? We shall never know. Well, that’s the problem, isn’t it? We all can’t get what we want. I want the series to stay roughly where it is right now. Some want it to become the Sword of Truth, while others want it become She-Ra and the Princesses of Power. My fear is that the devs (and Weekes in particular) will prioritize the latter group, which in my opinion would be as bad as the other option. Literally what do you think is going to happen? This '' fear '' is often blown out of proportions and I just don't get it.
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Post by thats1evildude on Feb 21, 2019 17:27:46 GMT
Literally what do you think is going to happen? This '' fear '' is often blown out of proportions and I just don't get it. The elimination of anything that could be remotely construed as straight male fanservice, to the point where romances barely even exist for those players, and major alterations to the lore to remove all problematic content.
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Post by caladrius on Feb 21, 2019 17:30:21 GMT
A lot of people use all kinds of media as a form of escapism. And for some people, they want to escape into a world with women who don't look like barbies, a world with several LGBT characters, a world with a lot of POC.. but some people see their existence as a political agenda. So who gets to use entertainment as an escapism method? We shall never know. Well, that’s the problem, isn’t it? We all can’t get what we want. I want the series to stay roughly where it is right now, with perhaps a touch more darkness. Some want it to become the Sword of Truth, while others want it become She-Ra and the Princesses of Power. My fear is that the devs (and Weekes in particular) will prioritize the latter group, which in my opinion would be as bad as the other option. I think most of your fears as stated so far are pretty paranoid and based on things literally nobody is asking for, in some cases. I’ve never seen anyone ask for brood mothers to bee removed because they’re sexist in nearly a decade following the community, so what is the point of stressing that maybe in the near dystopian future there will be a massive push for it? There’s no indication DA would consider leaving out hetero romances or minimizing them to Harding style flings. It’s also something I’ve only seen trolls and joke posts ask for. DA probably will stay roughly the same as it’s always been and everyone will probably get 2-3 romances from companions and major advisor NPCs, like Cullen and Josephine. The panic of a massive shift is paranoid and, honestly, something nobody is even really asking for.
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Post by wright1978 on Feb 21, 2019 17:33:53 GMT
An observation:
I'm now playing Pathfinder: Kingmaker. It has romanceable companions. And....I have no idea of their sexual orientation. I actually suspect they're all available for anyone, i.e. "playersexual". Which didn't work for me in DA2 because I got the impression they were all bi, which I found nonsensical, but it actually does work for me in Pathfinder: Kingmaker, and I think I know why: nobody makes a big issue of it. I have read neither complaints from some interest groups that they weren't catered to enough nor complaints about "the damn SJWs ruining everything again". Everyone just appears to take ownership of their story in the way that's only possible with a playersexual design.
Because of my experiences in DA2, I was against player-sexuality, but I'm changing my opinion. No more exclusivity for anyone. If that means it's impossible, for instance, to be a fan of a character romance just because it's a gay/straight/whatever romance, then, as far as I'm concerned, that's exactly how things should be. If that means I have to stretch my imagination to make me feel my romance companion is exclusive in some way, then so be it. We have the illusion of choice and we live with it, so why not do the same with illusion of exclusivity?
I’ll have to look into that game. i’ve long Been in favor of playersexuality unless there’s a specific reason for exclusivity or clear bi-ness in a particular character.
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Post by witchcocktor on Feb 21, 2019 17:39:38 GMT
Literally what do you think is going to happen? This '' fear '' is often blown out of proportions and I just don't get it. The elimination of anything that could be remotely construed as straight male fanservice, to the point where romances barely even exist for those players, and major alterations to the lore to remove all problematic content, which is entirely likely. Straight men have always had two romances in DA. Do you think you deserve more?
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Post by Zemgus on Feb 21, 2019 17:41:47 GMT
Literally what do you think is going to happen? This '' fear '' is often blown out of proportions and I just don't get it. The elimination of anything that could be remotely construed as straight male fanservice , to the point where romances barely even exist for those players, and major alterations to the lore to remove all problematic content, which is entirely likely. That's crazy... There's no reason to think something like that is ever going to happen... though the idea is highly amusing to me and I would just LOVE to see the internet reaction if that did actually happen lol
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