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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2019 12:44:13 GMT
1) If the Catalyst is a flawed VI that's controllng the Reapers, then the best solution is to turn that VI off or replace it with one that isn't flawed. If it doesn't control the Reapers as it says, then shooting the tube will not destroy them either... because everything Shepard knows about the function of the Crucible comes from that AI/VI. There is no other source telling him.her out to initiate the device. Hackett doesn't even know why "nothing is happening." Yet you also cannot know in advance if the one replacing it will be flawless, let alone remain flawless for all time. All it takes is one malfunction. While reapers that are gone remain gone, unless someone actively went through the effort to somehow, probably spacemagically, reconstruct them. 2) Were the geth isolationist? Legion says they stayed on Rannoch to look after the graves of the Quarian dead. They also are completely networked together and they monitor organic signals throughout the galaxy and even bait organics with false data. That's not being isolationist. But I'm pretty sure I remember that they shunned contact with organic races, which seems pretty isolationist to me. Just monitoring something, probably from a safe distance, does not contradict this. 3) Destroying museums IS a war crime in our actual society. A law dictated by the UN. Why, if what contained inside a museum is of no value because every civilization in earth's history has not come close to advancing as far as we have today?
Are you being facetious here? I'm pretty sure the UN regulation was not made with intelligent super weapons of galaxy wide mass destruction that also happened to contain historical archives in mind. And museums are by their nature generally a look back at how we got here, not of where we go from here. And if the reapers want to avoid destruction, all they need to do is surrender or parlay and assist in the fixing of their faulty precepts. But frankly I think an evil as complete and irredeemable as theirs needs to be eliminated for good. Even during the most horrific periods of human history, there have always been acts of kindness on all sides involved, as rare as they might have been. But not from the reapers. They are the embodiment of total war, in a way that I only associate with the other end of the sentience spectrum: a zombie apocalypse. No, I'm not being facetious. You're the one saying the Catalyst is a VI yet somehow is less intelligent than the programmed functions it created and controls... giving the Reapers instead all the intelligence and AI sentience that you're denying the Catalyst... their leader. If the Catalyst is a VI, the Reapers are also just VI's... not capable of having a free will or desire to destroy the galaxy.
You are also selectively believing one part of what the Catalyst tells you while disbelieving another... when the most likely lie would be the one that tells you how to destroy the Catalyst. He's most likely to try to preserve himself. If you disbelieve him on the point that he controls the Reapers, you have to disbelieve him when he tells you that shooting the tube would destroy the Reapers. Logically, you should be thinking then that it would destroy the device itself... making the organics powerless to continue the fight.
I'm also dead serious about the analogy of shooting up your computer. That computer is an archive of all your data. When things go wrong, IT tells you how to fix it. When you ignore what it says and disbelieve it, you generally wind up if a deeper mess than if you followed its instructions. If you feel it has been hacked and is not giving you good instructions, then you still need to shut it down to preserve your data. Shooting it is NOT a solution.
While I may not know for sure that control would work, I have more reason to believe that using an electronic interface to communicate with the device is "safer" than shooting it to bits. It's illogical that you would choose to believe the Catalyst on the very point where it is most likely to lie to you and yet reject whatever else it tells you. The term "blinded by hate" comes to mind.
Also, it is a fact that we are told by Leviathan that the Catalyst does control the Reapers and that it, in fact, created them and programmed for the precise purpose that it later tells you. The two stories "jive," so that is reason for Shepard to believe that the Catalyst is most likely telling the truth. The post-ending scenes verify that it was the truth.
Also, consider this... even Sovereign tells you that the Reapers are "each a nation" and that they embody more than Shepard could ever hope to understand... He's saying they embody more that the mere concept of "total war."
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Post by Gileadan on Dec 3, 2019 13:33:12 GMT
No, I'm not being facetious. You're the one saying the Catalyst is a VI yet somehow is less intelligent than the programmed functions it created and controls... giving the Reapers instead all the intelligence and AI sentience that you're denying the Catalyst... their leader. If the Catalyst is a VI, the Reapers are also just VI's... not capable of having a free will or desire to destroy the galaxy.
You are also selectively believing one part of what the Catalyst tells you while disbelieving another... when the most likely lie would be the one that tells you how to destroy the Catalyst. He's most likely to try to preserve himself. If you disbelieve him on the point that he controls the Reapers, you have to disbelieve him when he tells you that shooting the tube would destroy the Reapers. Logically, you should be thinking then that it would destroy the device itself... making the organics powerless to continue the fight. I'm also dead serious about the analogy of shooting up your computer. That computer is an archive of all your data. When things go wrong, IT tells you how to fix it. When you ignore what it says and disbelieve it, you generally wind up if a deeper mess than if you followed it's instructions. If you feel it has been hacked and is not giving you good instructions, then you still need to shut it down to preserve your data. Shooting it is NOT a solution. While I may not know for sure that control would work, I have more reason to believe that using an electronic interface to communicate with the device is "safer" than shooting it to bits. It's illogical that you would choose to believe the Catalyst on the very point where it is most likely to lie to you and yet reject whatever else it tells you. The term "blinded by hate" comes to mind. Also, it is a fact that we are told by Leviathan that the Catalyst does control the Reapers and that it, in fact, created them and programmed for the precise purpose that it later tells you. The two stories "jive," so that is reason for Shepard to believe that the Catalyst is most likely telling the truth. The post-ending scenes verify that it was the truth. Also, consider this... even Sovereign tells you that the Reapers are "each a nation" and that they embody more than Shepard could ever hope to understand... He's saying they embody more that the mere concept of "total war."
I'm not believing anything the catalyst says, nor am I judging the reapers by what it or Sovereign or Harbinger or whatever other reaper says. I believe in what I see happening in game, which is reapers killing everything. I shoot the tube not because I think that my character Shepard believes the catalyst told him the truth about what effect this will have, but because I feel that the game tells me, the player, that this is the ending I need to pick to achieve my desired outcome, which is killing the reapers, and I choose it based on my observation of their actions in the trilogy so far and for the reasons I outlined in my previous posts. At this point the story is too much space magic mumbo-jumbo for me to take it seriously enough to try and discover some deep meaning behind it before I make a choice. I eliminate a threat that has been murdering its way across the galaxy for countless cycles instead of handing over control to a new AI that is based on Shepard's personality (who might have pushed some unfortunate mercenary through a glass window earlier, and who'd entrust that kind of person with the power of the reapers, or any person or an AI based on their personality?). I'm choosing a conclusion for the game that keeps the galaxy as safe as possible. That is all there is to it. If the reapers and the catalyst are truly an AI and not just slaves to someone else's programming, they could have exerted some free will to stop the killing on their own, but they chose not to. If they lack free will and cannot overcome their faulty programming, I'm merely decommissioning a bunch of faulty killer machines. I don't really care which of the two it is and it will no longer matter once they're smoking husks, I just want to see their murder spree ended. And IT doesn't get within 10 m of my own computer. I'll fix that stuff myself, thank you very much.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2019 14:02:31 GMT
No, I'm not being facetious. You're the one saying the Catalyst is a VI yet somehow is less intelligent than the programmed functions it created and controls... giving the Reapers instead all the intelligence and AI sentience that you're denying the Catalyst... their leader. If the Catalyst is a VI, the Reapers are also just VI's... not capable of having a free will or desire to destroy the galaxy.
You are also selectively believing one part of what the Catalyst tells you while disbelieving another... when the most likely lie would be the one that tells you how to destroy the Catalyst. He's most likely to try to preserve himself. If you disbelieve him on the point that he controls the Reapers, you have to disbelieve him when he tells you that shooting the tube would destroy the Reapers. Logically, you should be thinking then that it would destroy the device itself... making the organics powerless to continue the fight. I'm also dead serious about the analogy of shooting up your computer. That computer is an archive of all your data. When things go wrong, IT tells you how to fix it. When you ignore what it says and disbelieve it, you generally wind up if a deeper mess than if you followed it's instructions. If you feel it has been hacked and is not giving you good instructions, then you still need to shut it down to preserve your data. Shooting it is NOT a solution. While I may not know for sure that control would work, I have more reason to believe that using an electronic interface to communicate with the device is "safer" than shooting it to bits. It's illogical that you would choose to believe the Catalyst on the very point where it is most likely to lie to you and yet reject whatever else it tells you. The term "blinded by hate" comes to mind. Also, it is a fact that we are told by Leviathan that the Catalyst does control the Reapers and that it, in fact, created them and programmed for the precise purpose that it later tells you. The two stories "jive," so that is reason for Shepard to believe that the Catalyst is most likely telling the truth. The post-ending scenes verify that it was the truth. Also, consider this... even Sovereign tells you that the Reapers are "each a nation" and that they embody more than Shepard could ever hope to understand... He's saying they embody more that the mere concept of "total war."
I'm not believing anything the catalyst says, nor am I judging the reapers by what it or Sovereign or Harbinger or whatever other reaper says. I believe in what I see happening in game, which is reapers killing everything. I shoot the tube not because I think that my character Shepard believes the catalyst told him the truth about what effect this will have, but because I feel that the game tells me, the player, that this is the ending I need to pick to achieve my desired outcome, which is killing the reapers, and I choose it based on my observation of their actions in the trilogy so far and for the reasons I outlined in my previous posts. At this point the story is too much space magic mumbo-jumbo for me to take it seriously enough to try and discover some deep meaning behind it before I make a choice. I eliminate a threat that has been murdering its way across the galaxy for countless cycles instead of handing over control to a new AI that is based on Shepard's personality (who might have pushed some unfortunate mercenary through a glass window earlier, and who'd entrust that kind of person with the power of the reapers, or any person or an AI based on their personality?). I'm choosing a conclusion for the game that keeps the galaxy as safe as possible. That is all there is to it. If the reapers and the catalyst are truly an AI and not just slaves to someone else's programming, they could have exerted some free will to stop the killing on their own, but they chose not to. If they lack free will and cannot overcome their faulty programming, I'm merely decommissioning a bunch of faulty killer machines. I don't really care which of the two it is and it will no longer matter once they're smoking husks, I just want to see their murder spree ended. And IT doesn't get within 10 m of my own computer. I'll fix that stuff myself, thank you very much. Again... the term "blinded by hate" comes to mind. Your character is seeking revenge and trying to justify it by saying it arbitrarily will make the galaxy "better off." You have no way of knowing whether the data encompassed by the Reapers has great value. The game is telling you that it has value, but you're ignoring that part of what the game it telling you in favor of just seeing the Reapers killing people. You admit, it's not a thoughtful choice. The UN law regarding museums IS telling us that the past has value regardless of whether or not the civilizations of the past were less advanced than ourselves. The UN law is not about AI vs. VI (which is how you chose to interpret what I said), but it IS about the past having value towards making a better future and about not knowing what tidbits from the past might provide in the way of knowledge that advances the future.
BTW, IT was merely a capitalization of the word "it" (to add emphasis on it) meaning the computer itself tells you what is wrong and how to fix it. You don't react by shooting it and expect that to fix anything, do you? The statement was not a reference in any way to Indoctrination Theory or even an IT department. Most problems with computers involve just reading what's on the screen more carefully.
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Post by Iakus on Dec 3, 2019 14:04:09 GMT
"The Reapers were stopped. Shepard saved us all. Now let's never speak of it again"
It really doesn't have to be much more complicated than that. If Bioware wanted to, they could do something like the Dragon Age Keep to give returning players a bit more detail (perhaps through codex entries) on how the Krogan Genophage was cured and why the Quarians/Geth still exist etc depending on what choices they made. Even long lived characters Like Liara who could potentially make an appearance will only know that the Crucible worked without any of the details. The writers needn't get bogged down too much.
I wouldn't even bring back anyone who knew Shepard. Clean break.
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Post by themikefest on Dec 3, 2019 14:31:06 GMT
It really doesn't have to be much more complicated than that. If Bioware wanted to, they could do something like the Dragon Age Keep to give returning players a bit more detail (perhaps through codex entries) on how the Krogan Genophage was cured and why the Quarians/Geth still exist etc depending on what choices they made. Even long lived characters Like Liara who could potentially make an appearance will only know that the Crucible worked without any of the details. The writers needn't get bogged down too much.
I wouldn't even bring back anyone who knew Shepard. Clean break. I would be curious what the reaction from fans would be if Bioware brought back the squdmates and crew, but not Shepard. The new main character leads the crew and squad on whatever mission.
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Post by Pounce de León on Dec 3, 2019 14:35:26 GMT
I'm not believing anything the catalyst says, nor am I judging the reapers by what it or Sovereign or Harbinger or whatever other reaper says. I believe in what I see happening in game, which is reapers killing everything. I shoot the tube not because I think that my character Shepard believes the catalyst told him the truth about what effect this will have, but because I feel that the game tells me, the player, that this is the ending I need to pick to achieve my desired outcome, which is killing the reapers, and I choose it based on my observation of their actions in the trilogy so far and for the reasons I outlined in my previous posts. At this point the story is too much space magic mumbo-jumbo for me to take it seriously enough to try and discover some deep meaning behind it before I make a choice. I eliminate a threat that has been murdering its way across the galaxy for countless cycles instead of handing over control to a new AI that is based on Shepard's personality (who might have pushed some unfortunate mercenary through a glass window earlier, and who'd entrust that kind of person with the power of the reapers, or any person or an AI based on their personality?). I'm choosing a conclusion for the game that keeps the galaxy as safe as possible. That is all there is to it. If the reapers and the catalyst are truly an AI and not just slaves to someone else's programming, they could have exerted some free will to stop the killing on their own, but they chose not to. If they lack free will and cannot overcome their faulty programming, I'm merely decommissioning a bunch of faulty killer machines. I don't really care which of the two it is and it will no longer matter once they're smoking husks, I just want to see their murder spree ended. And IT doesn't get within 10 m of my own computer. I'll fix that stuff myself, thank you very much. Again... the term "blinded by hate" comes to mind. ....
Not relevant. It's an act of self-defense.
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Post by Pounce de León on Dec 3, 2019 14:36:37 GMT
I wouldn't even bring back anyone who knew Shepard. Clean break. I would be curious what the reaction from fans would be if Bioware brought back the squdmates and crew, but not Shepard. The new main character leads the crew and squad on whatever mission. Shepard is dead and pulling that resurrection thing twice would be terribly lame.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2019 15:07:11 GMT
Again... the term "blinded by hate" comes to mind. ....
Not relevant. It's an act of self-defense. Destroying a single Reaper who is immediately in that moment attacking you would be an act of self-defense. Seeking to destroy any others of its kind just because they believe in the same doctrine as the one attacking you is not an act of self defense and certainly seeking to destroy all of them... annihilating every member with a weapon of mass destruction, even when the leaders have gone to war with you is NOT an act of self-defense. Knowingly annihilating an allied race in the process is also not an act of self-defense.
/furthermore, you are clearly given two alternatives you can try that don't involve totally annihilating any species.
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Post by Gileadan on Dec 3, 2019 15:12:31 GMT
Again... the term "blinded by hate" comes to mind. Your character is seeking revenge and trying to justify it by saying it arbitrarily will make the galaxy "better off." You have no way of knowing whether the data encompassed by the Reapers has great value. The game is telling you that it has value, but you're ignoring that part of what the game it telling you in favor of just seeing the Reapers killing people. You admit, it's not a thoughtful choice. The UN law regarding museums IS telling us that the past has value regardless of whether or not the civilizations of the past were less advanced than ourselves. The UN law is not about AI vs. VI (which is how you chose to interpret what I said), but it IS about the past having value towards making a better future and about not knowing what tidbits from the past might provide in the way of knowledge that advances the future.
BTW, IT was merely a capitalization of the word "it" (to add emphasis on it) meaning the computer itself tells you what is wrong and how to fix it. You don't react by shooting it and expect that to fix anything, do you? The statement was not a reference in any way to Indoctrination Theory or even an IT department. Most problems with computers involve just reading what's on the screen more carefully.
Blinded by hate? Eliminating a threat that will end several galactic civilizations including one's own if it is not stopped has nothing to do with hate, it is simple logic, and at the point in the game when the decision is made said threat is about to deal us the killing blow. It is about weighing the reaper's continued existence and the eradication of civilization that will follow versus their mere statement (I honestly don't remember if there is ever any proof, but let's assume there is for argument's sake) that they are a sort of archive of the races they genocided on previous cycles. Of course perserved knowledge has always value, that's not the question. The question is whether access to it is worth the risk of the reaper's continued existence. I chose "no" because I don't trust the Control alternative to be safe enough, assuming it works the way the Catalyst claims it does. Of course I also don't know whether shooting the tube does what the Catalyst says it does, but does that really matter at that point? Anything or everything it said could have been a lie, so at worst I'm picking a random consequence no matter what I choose. Or maybe the reapers always win no matter what I choose. I can't know at that point because this suddenly popped up boy hologram I never saw before doesn't really make that much sense. I'm pretty sure it has no idea how DNA works for example. So I go with the most straightforward option, which is the "Reapers OFF" button. Or tube.
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Post by Pounce de León on Dec 3, 2019 15:12:51 GMT
Not relevant. It's an act of self-defense. Destroying a single Reaper who is immediately in that moment attacking you would be an act of self-defense. Seeking to destroy any others of its kind just because they believe in the same doctrine as the one attacking you is not an act of self defense and certainly seeking to destroy all of them... annihilating every member with a weapon of mass destruction, even when the leaders have gone to war with you is NOT an act of self-defense. Knowingly annihilating an allied race in the process is also not an act of self-defense.
/furthermore, you are clearly given two alternatives you can try that don't involve totally annihilating any species.
Don't know where you get your nonsense from. It certainly self defense to save an ally and certainly good practice to prevent a galaxy-wide holocaust by destroying the aggressor.
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Post by KaiserShep on Dec 3, 2019 15:21:34 GMT
Weren't the geth isolationist until Sovereign showed up and made them hostile towards organics? It doesn't make much sense to me that uploading reaper code to them makes them peaceful and cooperative again. Isn't it the Quarians ceasing fire that makes them realize that no more self defense is required? As I understood it, the code wasn't to make the geth peaceful, but rather simply to remove or at least mitigate a key weakness in their networked intelligence in that it would make each individual program a proper AI. They'd no longer be vulnerable to Quarian attacks and would no longer exponentially lose efficiency if their numbers dwindled.
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Post by Iakus on Dec 3, 2019 15:29:19 GMT
I would be curious what the reaction from fans would be if Bioware brought back the squdmates and crew, but not Shepard. The new main character leads the crew and squad on whatever mission. Shepard is dead and pulling that resurrection thing twice would be terribly lame. Killing off Shepard twice in two games to begin with was already terribly lame. So there is precedence...
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Post by Pounce de León on Dec 3, 2019 15:32:52 GMT
Shepard is dead and pulling that resurrection thing twice would be terribly lame. Killing off Shepard twice in two games to begin with was already terribly lame. So there is precedence... Doesn't make the resurrectathon any better.
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Post by Iakus on Dec 3, 2019 15:35:34 GMT
Weren't the geth isolationist until Sovereign showed up and made them hostile towards organics? It doesn't make much sense to me that uploading reaper code to them makes them peaceful and cooperative again. Isn't it the Quarians ceasing fire that makes them realize that no more self defense is required? As I understood it, the code wasn't to make the geth peaceful, but rather simply to remove or at least mitigate a key weakness in their networked intelligence in that it would make each individual program a proper AI. They'd no longer be vulnerable to Quarian attacks and would no longer exponentially lose efficiency if their numbers dwindled. It wasn't a weakness. The geth WILLINGLY allowed themselves to be controlled because, like Saren, they determined that "submission was preferable to extinction". The code was meant to make the geth into 'true AI", retconning the first two games where the geth were, in fact, full AI, albeit with a form of gestalt intelligence alien to human understanding. But, you know, if it's alien, it can't be truly intelligent, eh?
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Post by KaiserShep on Dec 3, 2019 15:37:09 GMT
Not relevant. It's an act of self-defense. Destroying a single Reaper who is immediately in that moment attacking you would be an act of self-defense. Seeking to destroy any others of its kind just because they believe in the same doctrine as the one attacking you is not an act of self defense and certainly seeking to destroy all of them... annihilating every member with a weapon of mass destruction, even when the leaders have gone to war with you is NOT an act of self-defense. Knowingly annihilating an allied race in the process is also not an act of self-defense.
/furthermore, you are clearly given two alternatives you can try that don't involve totally annihilating any species.
Oh come on. This isn't like a race of peoples or a proper civilization where its military is set against you. It wouldn't be the equivalent of, say, annihilating a whole country, where many of its inhabitants are not active combatants and, even if they believe you are the enemy, do not really have the capacity to act on it. Every single reaper is actively hostile. They are an entirely monolithic faction, and none are simply "believers" in any doctrine. Each and every one is either vaporizing swaths of people, or hauling away captives to convert them into augmented thralls, so they too can vaporize swaths of people, and haul them away to make more. They're obviously a clear and present existential threat, and killing each and every one would indeed be self defense. There's no such thing as a reaper civilian or a reaper that's just standing on a soap box going "We are the superiors! Go forth and harvest!"
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Post by KaiserShep on Dec 3, 2019 15:39:09 GMT
As I understood it, the code wasn't to make the geth peaceful, but rather simply to remove or at least mitigate a key weakness in their networked intelligence in that it would make each individual program a proper AI. They'd no longer be vulnerable to Quarian attacks and would no longer exponentially lose efficiency if their numbers dwindled. It wasn't a weakness. The geth WILLINGLY allowed themselves to be controlled because, like Saren, they determined that "submission was preferable to extinction". The code was meant to make the geth into 'true AI", retconning the first two games where the geth were, in fact, full AI, albeit with a form of gestalt intelligence alien to human understanding. But, you know, if it's alien, it can't be truly intelligent, eh? That the geth might allow something to happen is a moot point. By design, their networked intelligence is a weakness in that they lose the capacity to process information as effectively, and they're more vulnerable as their programs grow fewer. The code making each individual program is an obvious strength, since now each individual program can run a gestalt platform and run just as efficiently as something like Legion.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2019 15:42:23 GMT
Destroying a single Reaper who is immediately in that moment attacking you would be an act of self-defense. Seeking to destroy any others of its kind just because they believe in the same doctrine as the one attacking you is not an act of self defense and certainly seeking to destroy all of them... annihilating every member with a weapon of mass destruction, even when the leaders have gone to war with you is NOT an act of self-defense. Knowingly annihilating an allied race in the process is also not an act of self-defense.
/furthermore, you are clearly given two alternatives you can try that don't involve totally annihilating any species.
Oh come on. This isn't like a race of peoples or a proper civilization where its military is set against you. It wouldn't be the equivalent of, say, annihilating a whole country, where many of its inhabitants are not active combatants and, even if they believe you are the enemy, do not really have the capacity to act on it. Every single reaper is actively hostile. They are an entirely monolithic faction, and none are simply "believers" in any doctrine. Each and every one is either vaporizing swaths of people, or hauling away captives to convert them into augmented thralls, so they too can vaporize swaths of people, and haul them away to make more. They're obviously a clear and present existential threat, and killing each and every one would indeed be self defense. There's no such thing as a reaper civilian or a reaper that's just standing on a soap box going "We are the superiors! Go forth and harvest!" It is still not an act of self-defense. Even legitimate actions taken during war are NOT acts of self-defense. They are acts of war.
Again, before taking the action, you a clearly given alternatives that avoid annihilating all the reapers. The reapers are an archive and hence have value that is worth not destroying if possible... and IT IS possible to not destroy them and end the war. You can cry about synthesis forcing a change on everyone, but the same cannot be said about control. If the Reapers are not a "race of peoples" but rather machines controlled by their programming, the solution is to fix their programming rather than destroy all of the machines utterly and the data they contain... data that has value.
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Post by themikefest on Dec 3, 2019 15:51:40 GMT
If the data each reaper carries is so valuable, the thing should have done a better job at protecting that data. Look at the derelict reaper, the reaper the Batarians found and Sovereign. It stores that data in reaper form, yet puts the reapers in harms way regardless of how powerful they are. It's solution failed long before Shepard showed up.
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Post by Iakus on Dec 3, 2019 15:57:51 GMT
It wasn't a weakness. The geth WILLINGLY allowed themselves to be controlled because, like Saren, they determined that "submission was preferable to extinction". The code was meant to make the geth into 'true AI", retconning the first two games where the geth were, in fact, full AI, albeit with a form of gestalt intelligence alien to human understanding. But, you know, if it's alien, it can't be truly intelligent, eh? That the geth might allow something to happen is a moot point. By design, their networked intelligence is a weakness in that they lose the capacity to process information as effectively, and they're more vulnerable as their programs grow fewer. The code making each individual program is an obvious strength, since now each individual program can run a gestalt platform and run just as efficiently as something like Legion. Whether being an individual or part of a gestalt is "superior" isn't the issue for me. It's the statement that one is "alive" and the other isn't. It's one of the blatant ME3 retcons that really p*sses me off.
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Post by Pounce de León on Dec 3, 2019 16:02:52 GMT
Oh come on. This isn't like a race of peoples or a proper civilization where its military is set against you. It wouldn't be the equivalent of, say, annihilating a whole country, where many of its inhabitants are not active combatants and, even if they believe you are the enemy, do not really have the capacity to act on it. Every single reaper is actively hostile. They are an entirely monolithic faction, and none are simply "believers" in any doctrine. Each and every one is either vaporizing swaths of people, or hauling away captives to convert them into augmented thralls, so they too can vaporize swaths of people, and haul them away to make more. They're obviously a clear and present existential threat, and killing each and every one would indeed be self defense. There's no such thing as a reaper civilian or a reaper that's just standing on a soap box going "We are the superiors! Go forth and harvest!" It is still not an act of self-defense. Even legitimate actions taken during war are NOT acts of self-defense. They are acts of war.
Again, before taking the action, you a clearly given alternatives that avoid annihilating all the reapers. The reapers are an archive and hence have value that is worth not destroying if possible... and IT IS possible to not destroy them and end the war. You can cry about synthesis forcing a change on everyone, but the same cannot be said about control. If the Reapers are not a "race of peoples" but rather machines controlled by their programming, the solution is to fix their programming rather than destroy all of the machines utterly and the data they contain... data that has value.
Screw the "archives". If they keep knowledge as hostage they are even more stupid than depicted in the trilogy. Won't prevent that people don't like to be turned to goo and rather pull the plug from your benevolent holocaust machines.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2019 16:09:02 GMT
If the data each reaper carries is so valuable, the thing should have done a better job at protecting that data. Look at the derelict reaper, the reaper the Batarians found and Sovereign. It stores that data in reaper form, yet puts the reapers in harms way regardless of how powerful they are. It's solution failed long before Shepard showed up. How do you know that the Catalyst put the Reapers that became derelict in harm's way? You haven't a clue as to how they became derelict.
I agree... ME1's concept of a single vanguard being left in the galaxy in order to determine when to call the Reapers back is nonsense... ME1's nonsense.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2019 16:13:05 GMT
It is still not an act of self-defense. Even legitimate actions taken during war are NOT acts of self-defense. They are acts of war.
Again, before taking the action, you a clearly given alternatives that avoid annihilating all the reapers. The reapers are an archive and hence have value that is worth not destroying if possible... and IT IS possible to not destroy them and end the war. You can cry about synthesis forcing a change on everyone, but the same cannot be said about control. If the Reapers are not a "race of peoples" but rather machines controlled by their programming, the solution is to fix their programming rather than destroy all of the machines utterly and the data they contain... data that has value.
Screw the "archives". If they keep knowledge as hostage they are even more stupid than depicted in the trilogy. Won't prevent that people don't like to be turned to goo and rather pull the plug from your benevolent holocaust machines. Then you believe in destroying Maelon's data because it's safe to assume the Krogan females didn't like to be tortured? I would rather kill Maelon only and keep the data since it might be useful. The AI controlling the Reapers has to go... and the game shows us ultimately that removing only that AI that controls Reapers does successfully end the war without forcing a DNA change on everyone. The cost is only one life - Shepard.
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Post by Pounce de León on Dec 3, 2019 16:17:41 GMT
Screw the "archives". If they keep knowledge as hostage they are even more stupid than depicted in the trilogy. Won't prevent that people don't like to be turned to goo and rather pull the plug from your benevolent holocaust machines. Then you believe in destroying Maelon's data because it's safe to assume the Krogan females didn't like to be tortured? We're talking about destroying the reapers here. Not Maelon's data. Which has nothing to do with the reapers or the ending whatsoever. You know, the thing pretty big in this thread?
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Post by themikefest on Dec 3, 2019 16:35:12 GMT
If the data each reaper carries is so valuable, the thing should have done a better job at protecting that data. Look at the derelict reaper, the reaper the Batarians found and Sovereign. It stores that data in reaper form, yet puts the reapers in harms way regardless of how powerful they are. It's solution failed long before Shepard showed up. How do you know that the Catalyst put the Reapers that became derelict in harm's way? You haven't a clue as to how they became derelict.
I agree... ME1's concept of a single vanguard being left in the galaxy in order to determine when to call the Reapers back is nonsense... ME1's nonsense.
The thing says it controls the reapers. It put them in harm's way.
Don't have clue how they became derelict? The one in ME2 was hit by a weapon that TIM mentions. The one the batarians found appears to be the work of Leviathan. Sovereign was destroyed in ME1.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2019 16:48:52 GMT
How do you know that the Catalyst put the Reapers that became derelict in harm's way? You haven't a clue as to how they became derelict.
I agree... ME1's concept of a single vanguard being left in the galaxy in order to determine when to call the Reapers back is nonsense... ME1's nonsense.
The thing says it controls the reapers. It put them in harm's way.
Don't have clue how they became derelict? The one in ME2 was hit by a weapon that TIM mentions. The one the batarians found appears to be the work of Leviathan. Sovereign was destroyed in ME1.
Again, do you know the circumstances behind it being hit by an assumed weapon (TIM's theory and he clearly states that he doesn't know for sure). Same for the one the Batarians found shown by the fact that you yourself have used the term "appears to be..." Sovereign was destroyed in ME1... and I clearly stated that leaving one sentinel behind was crap... ME1's crap (supporting my position that the entire Mass Effect story was flawed from the get go - which is not a popular stance here). The popular stance here is that ME1 is perfect and only after Chris L'Etoile left did it decline.
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