inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
Oct 31, 2024 22:18:39 GMT
18,255
Catilina
11,033
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on Feb 9, 2018 21:19:25 GMT
Ella shows they are very distinct people. additionall, the Fade. Other symptoms: his memory lapses, his current judgement of Isabella when they happily screwed in Fereldan, his complete appearance of exhaustion and unhappiness due to the Obsessive compulsions caused by an inner spirit when we know his default is happy, rested, mellow, jokester from Awakening. what evidence of that is there Canon wise? Picture of a one armed hermit Anders comes to mind. Admittedly I have a hard time not seeing it through a psychological lens, so that may be just my interpretation. But the original Justice is for all intents and purposes, gone, and he reflects Anders own memories and desires, post merge. Anders says as much, that he experiences Justice's thoughts as his own. So Justice exists as part of Anders' subconcious, and is able to take control in times of extreme emotional stress or fear. He is also able to take control in the Fade, which is where people go when they dream. This is also my interpretation. But, on the frienship path, in his speech during Hawke's judgement at the end, he says himself that he and Justice are one. Beyond that, I think he just comes to grasp the idea that justice and vengeance are two sides of a coin. He is able to accept that reality and take responsibility for it. On the rival path, he is unable to reconcile these two opposing ideas, and he is driven crazy by the cognitive dissonance. Justice was always also Vengeance in some way: when he chose a purpose to his mortal-world life, he chose: revenge on the Darkspawn for Kristoff. And this was justice. So: Justice is a hard spirit.
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
Oct 31, 2024 22:18:39 GMT
18,255
Catilina
11,033
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on Feb 9, 2018 22:20:37 GMT
By the way, Justice can learn about the mortal world. Justice able to cheat to equalize the odds, and to punish the cheater, I suppose:
Anders: You owe me fifty silvers. Isabela: You were cheating! Anders: So were you! Isabela: You had supernatural help. Anders: Excuses! Just admit it. I beat you at your own game. Isabela: Ugh. Anders: Fifty silvers.
|
|
Sah291
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
Prime Posts: 1,240
Prime Likes: 1340
Posts: 862 Likes: 1,935
inherit
306
0
1,935
Sah291
862
August 2016
sah291
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
1,240
1340
|
Post by Sah291 on Feb 9, 2018 23:16:41 GMT
Yeah, I think the fact spirits can reflect either side of their nature is shown in the story, especially in DAI, as we see this in Cole's arc.
Of course, there are different ways to interpret it. But this is what I think would factor into Hawke's decision and judgement of Anders. In that moment, if Hawke is about to go into battle to kill, and possibly die, for this cause, he/she wants to know if Anders: 1) is sane 2) is an equal in every respect as an ally, and 3) capable of living with the destruction they are about to cause, without losing the good in himself as well. Because let's face it, no matter how principled or justified you think you are, war is brutal. I don't think rival Anders is that person.
Plus, I just see Hawke thinking this way. Hawke is full of a lot of the same contradictions. A protector and a killer, etc. Hawke has power and can use it either to help free people or help crush the rebellion.
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
Oct 31, 2024 22:18:39 GMT
18,255
Catilina
11,033
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on Feb 9, 2018 23:50:24 GMT
Yeah, I think the fact spirits can reflect either side of their nature is shown in the story, especially in DAI, as we see this in Cole's arc. Of course, there are different ways to interpret it. But this is what I think would factor into Hawke's decision and judgement of Anders. In that moment, if Hawke is about to go into battle to kill, and possibly die, for this cause, he/she wants to know if Anders: 1) is sane 2) is an equal in every respect as an ally, and 3) capable of living with the destruction they are about to cause, without losing the good in himself as well. Because let's face it, no matter how principled or justified you think you are, war is brutal. I don't think rival Anders is that person. Plus, I just see Hawke thinking this way. Hawke is full of a lot of the same contradictions. A protector and a killer, etc. Hawke has power and can use it either to help free people or help crush the rebellion. How I like it! Yes! And how sad is rival Anders, when able to join Hawke against the Mages. I have seen many opinions that rivalry brings back a part of Awakening Anders. But Anders would able to support the Templars against the Mages? Hawke easily can uncertain Anders, because he's not a murderer, and while he was certain about the freedom, he always questioned himself, and his own decisions, about Justice. He felt guilty because he thought he corrupted Justice. If Hawke, whom he loves perhaps, always say to him, for seven years, that he's a monster (when he also fears it – even Justice fear it: his fear proves in the Fade and in Ella's quest), after a while, he believes it. In the rivalry, Hawke can't convince him about there are peaceful tools to achieve the freedom, but convince him, he's a monster, convince him to hate Justice, to hate himself. At the finish, he already an enemy of Justice, while Justice does nothing against it. Anders at the moment able to turn against his people, he already doesn't know, what is right. He's just a murderer, that "demon" made him a murderer, and this "demon" suggests everything. He's lost already, he has nothing. (Of course, as you said, we can explain that in many ways...)
|
|
Sah291
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
Prime Posts: 1,240
Prime Likes: 1340
Posts: 862 Likes: 1,935
inherit
306
0
1,935
Sah291
862
August 2016
sah291
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
1,240
1340
|
Post by Sah291 on Feb 10, 2018 0:45:50 GMT
Well, I think, if you fear or hate a part of yourself that much, you aren't powerful enough to control the more negative aspects of yourself either. Anders didn't really earn the respect of Justice in that case, and he took everything from him in the end, twisting into a paranoid and negative being. Hawke's cruelty and lack of compassion surely doesn't help, feeding into those same insecurities.
I think they are right, rival does show more of the Awakening Anders, but I wouldn't say Awakening Anders had any business starting a rebellion either...he was too uncertain of himself, and he tended to run away from conflict, and looks to others for protection. He couldn't sway or earn Hawke's respect either, in that case.
But like I said, I don't think Anders and Justice were that separate, after the merge. There was never really any Justice/Anders conflict, it was always about Justice/Vengeance. Anders is a very compassionate person who wishes to help people, but he couldn't reconcile that with his own potential for violence, and the anger he also had inside, so he feared Justice. That's his character arc.
|
|
inherit
Friend of Red Jenny
90
0
18,922
vertigomez
5,281
August 2016
vertigomez
|
Post by vertigomez on Feb 10, 2018 1:44:02 GMT
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
Oct 31, 2024 22:18:39 GMT
18,255
Catilina
11,033
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on Feb 10, 2018 2:05:32 GMT
Well, I think, if you fear or hate a part of yourself that much, you aren't powerful enough to control the more negative aspects of yourself either. Anders didn't really earn the respect of Justice in that case, and he took everything from him in the end, twisting into a paranoid and negative being. I think they are right, rival does show more of the Awakening Anders, but I wouldn't say Awakening Anders had any business starting a rebellion either...he was too uncertain of himself, and he tended to run away from conflict, and looks to others for protection. He couldn't sway or earn Hawke's respect either, in that case. But like I said, I don't think Anders and Justice were that separate, after the merge. There was never really any Justice/Anders conflict, it was always about Justice/Vengeance. Anders is a very compassionate person who wishes to help people, but he couldn't reconcile that with his own potential for violence, and the anger he also had inside, so he feared Justice. That's his character arc. More Awakening Anders, if we say, he was uncertain, but Awakening Anders had inner-fire and faith (if he did not have faith, he wouldn't able to escape again and again, even after the solitary confinement). He tended to run away from the conflict, yes but rivalled Anders did nothing, just wanted to die. Awakening Anders wouldn't start any rebellion because it's difficult, but he wanted this. If he did not want to, he would not have listened Justice. He just didn't trust himself, and the opportunity of the change. (Wynne-scene about the Libertarian and the independence of the Chantry) But he trusted Justice can help, so, he took this opportunity. Awakening Anders wanted that freedom. He was uncertain but had faith. So: rival Anders is Awakening Anders who said: "I didn't do it". The only little difference: he didn't want to live anymore, he didn't want anything just die. Anders feared Justice when he experienced his strength, and his ability to take over him if he lost the control. This fear wasn't without any base. And on this base, Hawke able to uncertain him to be paranoid and negative. And even able to strengthen him, with mere words. Is he not powerful enough? This is a hard question. Of course, not, if Hawke as able to uncertain him and force him to turn against the mages. But he was powerful enough to not be a monster. Or where was Justice? Of course they're merged. But still, have independent thoughts. "[...] he's gone now, he's a part of me [...] I feel his thought is my own", he said, and I suppose this means, he thinks something, what he feels not his own because this is strange to be his own. He can agree with this thought, can refuse or think more about it. Just as his own weird ideas. "Justice doesn't approve my obsession with you." He can separate his own thought and Justices. He feels, that his Justice-part doesn't approve something, or satisfied with something. Justice in the Fade also said, that Anders "talk" about Hawke, but in the rivalry, Justice said, he's Anders, and he is. And Anders said, after the Fade, that Justice wouldn't able to understand, if Hawke tells him, s/he will play with the sloth demon – to help to protect Feynriel. In the rivalry, Anders speaks about Justice, as he would a separate entity, but this is not true. This is simply not true, that in the rivalry, they didn't merge: they already merged in the Act1. Anders only wants to separate himself to his Justice-part, and pass all responsibility to Justice, to someone, who's not himself... while in friendship, he accepts his Justice-part, and can handle that. Someone thinks that's a good thing, he "separates" Justice, but he just denies Justice and himself as well. Anders was compassionate, but the Darktown's free healer was Anders/Justice. I don't think, Awakening Anders would stay in Kirkwall Darktown. He said, himself he was more selfish. But this is just my opinion about him/them. I just separate them as Anders and Justice can separate themselves/himself... I always felt, this isn't just Justice/Vengeance problem, but even Anders/Justice... just as someone who can't accept himself (a bit as a multiple disorder). But of course, this isn't so simple.
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
Oct 31, 2024 22:18:39 GMT
18,255
Catilina
11,033
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on Feb 10, 2018 2:08:10 GMT
And where's Darktown Dorian?
|
|
inherit
Friend of Red Jenny
90
0
18,922
vertigomez
5,281
August 2016
vertigomez
|
Post by vertigomez on Feb 10, 2018 2:10:13 GMT
And where's Darktown Dorian? Can you imagine Dorian living in a sewer? 🤣
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
Oct 31, 2024 22:18:39 GMT
18,255
Catilina
11,033
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on Feb 10, 2018 2:21:36 GMT
And where's Darktown Dorian? Can you imagine Dorian living in a sewer? 🤣 Hah! Just as a bizarre thought, as Anders in Tevinter in luxury circumstances, when his own not in safe. "Kirkwall can't change alone love, Even if we win here, it will take years of open warfare throughout Thedas before mages can be safe, If you want to stay with me, you must join me that fight" He doesn't want to run away. Not anymore. (Perhaps, Awakening-Anders, but I'm not sure about.) But... this gave me a thought: Many people think, that he "idolizes" Tevinter, as some Eden. And one of the pieces of evidence is the Tevinter Amulet. But we know: every gift, what Hawke can give to the "crew", is something that just as negative, as positive... The Sylvanwood ring – reminds Merrill that she no longer belongs to the Dalish Ship in a bottle – reminds Isabela, she doesn't have any ship The Tethras signet ring – reminds Varric, that he's the head of the House of Tethras, what he didn't really want. The Blade of Mercy – reminds Fenris to Tevinter and Danarius And the Tevinter Chantry amulet... – may a rude sarcasm, what happen if the mages are free
|
|
Sah291
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
Prime Posts: 1,240
Prime Likes: 1340
Posts: 862 Likes: 1,935
inherit
306
0
1,935
Sah291
862
August 2016
sah291
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
1,240
1340
|
Post by Sah291 on Feb 10, 2018 3:37:38 GMT
Well, see that's why I don't like rivaling Anders, because DA2 Anders still has that spark of inner fire, despite being unsure of himself. So I think Hawke would see that and would want to encourage him. Awakening Anders may have wanted the same things, but he didn't have the strength to follow through with it, even if he wanted to. That's what he merged with Justice hoping to gain... but it wasn't easy, having to go it alone. It didn't help he was attacked immediately after either. Anders does perceive Justice as being more separate, even after the merge...but I'm just saying I don't think it was that clear cut. I think it's a grey area anyway. Spirits themselves don't seem to have the same sense of individuality. I mean, look at Spirit Cole, he's totally cool with reading people's minds, and invading their privacy and personal space. Of course, he wasn't human and wasn't used to having a physical body, so he doesn't understand these boundaries. It could be totally normal for spirit to merge and mingle consciousness this way.
|
|
nappilydeestruction
N2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 126 Likes: 256
inherit
9716
0
256
nappilydeestruction
126
Jan 15, 2018 17:03:02 GMT
January 2018
nappilydeestruction
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by nappilydeestruction on Feb 12, 2018 2:02:37 GMT
I love and romanced Anders. I was in love with Awakening Anders, because he was just telling the beginning of his story. But DA2 made me even more sad and depress a bit because he became so lost with himself and having to merge with Justice was gonna change his life forever. I thought the merge itself was a horrible idea from the get go.
I also do not like the chantry at all. What these so-called "righteous" did and the way they treated the mages and how bias they were towards the templars were just downright disguisting. I was happy to see the chantry blown into pieces. Yes I know some chantries are not that bad, but this one in Kirkwall in particular was absolutely stupid with their "righteous" politics.
I feel sorry for Anders in a way I can imagine. All he wanted to do is live his life as a mage without horrible judgement and just want to help others. It makes me sick when Anders gets all the hate but yet when other characters in the game do something just as bad, its ok, its heroic. I honestly hate how the story mechanic didn't give a choice to prevent Anders from blowing up the chantry but at the same time the Chantry had it coming. When you are so bias towards the Templars and its leaders instead of trying to understand their struggles and suffering.
The mages do have their faults yes, so does the Templars as well. I don't hate templars and mages. I would love for them to work together like they use to. But Chantry politics are the ones that divided the two parties. To me the Chantry should get more of the blame than the other two parties (Templars and Mages).
Sorry for my rant, but the more I have played all three dragon age series. The more i got irritated with some of the things I mentioned.
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
Oct 31, 2024 22:18:39 GMT
18,255
Catilina
11,033
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on Feb 12, 2018 9:28:52 GMT
I love and romanced Anders. I was in love with Awakening Anders, because he was just telling the beginning of his story. But DA2 made me even more sad and depress a bit because he became so lost with himself and having to merge with Justice was gonna change his life forever. I thought the merge itself was a horrible idea from the get go.
I also do not like the chantry at all. What these so-called "righteous" did and the way they treated the mages and how bias they were towards the templars were just downright disguisting. I was happy to see the chantry blown into pieces. Yes I know some chantries are not that bad, but this one in Kirkwall in particular was absolutely stupid with their "righteous" politics.
I feel sorry for Anders in a way I can imagine. All he wanted to do is live his life as a mage without horrible judgement and just want to help others. It makes me sick when Anders gets all the hate but yet when other characters in the game do something just as bad, its ok, its heroic. I honestly hate how the story mechanic didn't give a choice to prevent Anders from blowing up the chantry but at the same time the Chantry had it coming. When you are so bias towards the Templars and its leaders instead of trying to understand their struggles and suffering.
The mages do have their faults yes, so does the Templars as well. I don't hate templars and mages. I would love for them to work together like they use to. But Chantry politics are the ones that divided the two parties. To me the Chantry should get more of the blame than the other two parties (Templars and Mages).
Sorry for my rant, but the more I have played all three dragon age series. The more i got irritated with some of the things I mentioned. Welcome there! (You don't need to apologize for rant.) Anders would regret in his whole life if he wouldn't help Justice and doesn't give a chance for that opportunity. He wanted to fight for the mages, he wanted a revolution. So: this was his (their) fate. Even if Hawke kills him at the end. The fandom's hate somehow understandable: Anders is the only character Hawke can't to influence, whatever s/he do. S/He can crush him (rivalry, especially "romance"), betray him (to Elthina and Cullen, but they're blind...), and kill him, but not able to prevent him. Anders stole the starring role from the player's character, and this is unforgivable. This Mage–Templar issue is interesting, but when Anders sees Thrask and the Starkhaven mages together, he welcomed the cooperation. (Sadly, Grace is a vengeful bitch.) And probably this is why he attacked the Chantry, instead of the Gallows: the Chantry (in Kirkwall Elthina) was the real enemy, not the Templars. They're only the Chantry's "executioners". But he's an Andrastian, and I don't think, he "hates" the Chantry. He worked for a more peaceful solution for years, but the peaceful solution in Kirkwall was not an option. (We saw it: not even in the Southern-Thedas. And not the mages, the Seekers and the Templars prevented the dialogue between the mages and Justinia.) But the Templars aren't only aggressors, they even the system's (the Chantry's) victims too. The system spoiled many good people.
|
|
davesin
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights
Posts: 489 Likes: 859
inherit
161
0
859
davesin
489
August 2016
davesin
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights
|
Post by davesin on Feb 12, 2018 9:50:56 GMT
Anders would regret in his whole life if he wouldn't help Justice and doesn't give a chance for that opportunity. He wanted to fight for the mages, he wanted a revolution. So: this was his (their) fate. Even if Hawke kills him at the end. The fandom's hate somehow understandable: Anders is the only character Hawke can't to influence, whatever s/he do. S/He can crush him (rivalry, especially "romance"), betray him (to Elthina and Cullen, but they're blind...), and kill him, but not able to prevent him. Anders stole the starring role from the player's character, and this is unforgivable. This is interesting, but when Anders sees Thrask and the Starkhaven mages together, he welcomed the cooperation. (Sadly, Grace is a vengeful bitch.) And probably this is why he attacked the Chantry, instead of the Gallows: the Chantry (in Kirkwall Elthina) was the real enemy, not the Templars. They're only the Chantry's "executioners". But he's an Andrastian, and I don't think, he "hates" the Chantry. He worked for a more peaceful solution for years, but the peaceful solution in Kirkwall was not an option. (We saw it: not even in the Southern-Thedas. And not the mages, the Seekers and the Templars prevented the dialogue between the mages and Justinia.) He also lies about his intentions and convinces Hawke to gather ingredients for bomb while claiming it's for some potion that would separate him and Justice. That can also make someone angry.
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
Oct 31, 2024 22:18:39 GMT
18,255
Catilina
11,033
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on Feb 12, 2018 10:27:42 GMT
Welcome there! (You don't need to apologize for rant.)
Anders would regret in his whole life if he wouldn't help Justice and doesn't give a chance for that opportunity. He wanted to fight for the mages, he wanted a revolution. So: this was his (their) fate. Even if Hawke kills him at the end.
The fandom's hate somehow understandable: Anders is the only character Hawke can't to influence, whatever s/he do. S/He can crush him (rivalry, especially "romance"), betray him (to Elthina and Cullen, but they're blind...), and kill him, but not able to prevent him. Anders stole the starring role from the player's character, and this is unforgivable.
This is interesting, but when Anders sees Thrask and the Starkhaven mages together, he welcomed the cooperation. (Sadly, Grace is a vengeful bitch.) And probably this is why he attacked the Chantry, instead of the Gallows: the Chantry (in Kirkwall Elthina) was the real enemy, not the Templars. They're only the Chantry's "executioners". But he's an Andrastian, and I don't think, he "hates" the Chantry. He worked for a more peaceful solution for years, but the peaceful solution in Kirkwall was not an option. (We saw it: not even in the Southern-Thedas. And not the mages, the Seekers and the Templars prevented the dialogue between the mages and Justinia.) But the Templars aren't only aggressors, they even the system's (the Chantry's) victims too. The system spoiled many good people. He also lies about his intentions and convinces Hawke to gather ingredients for bomb while claiming it's for some potion that would separate him and Justice. That can also make someone angry. I never denied that (nor the other many little or bigger things), but I think, not this is the main reason for that extremely strong hatred compared the other DA companions, NPCs.
|
|
Sah291
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
Prime Posts: 1,240
Prime Likes: 1340
Posts: 862 Likes: 1,935
inherit
306
0
1,935
Sah291
862
August 2016
sah291
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
1,240
1340
|
Post by Sah291 on Feb 12, 2018 15:42:37 GMT
I feel sorry for Anders in a way I can imagine. All he wanted to do is live his life as a mage without horrible judgement and just want to help others. It makes me sick when Anders gets all the hate but yet when other characters in the game do something just as bad, its ok, its heroic. I honestly hate how the story mechanic didn't give a choice to prevent Anders from blowing up the chantry but at the same time the Chantry had it coming. When you are so bias towards the Templars and its leaders instead of trying to understand their struggles and suffering. Welcome! I've said this before, but I really think a lot of the fan hate has to do with the fact the choice was taken out of our hands. Whether you support it or not, you can't make the choice or influence the outcome at all, and it is even hidden from the player in order to surprise/shock us. Anytime you have characters taking major power away from the protagonist like that, especially at the end of the game, it kind of makes you feel cheated, or like you're being forced to lose. I can understand that. Hawke's relative "powerlessness" was a big complaint when this game came out. You don't get to "save the world," like in Origins, or in most other Bioware games. You can't even stop the war. Those are all reasons some of us really liked DA2 though, it was different.
|
|
Sah291
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
Prime Posts: 1,240
Prime Likes: 1340
Posts: 862 Likes: 1,935
inherit
306
0
1,935
Sah291
862
August 2016
sah291
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
1,240
1340
|
Post by Sah291 on Feb 12, 2018 17:13:56 GMT
He also lies about his intentions and convinces Hawke to gather ingredients for bomb while claiming it's for some potion that would separate him and Justice. That can also make someone angry. I never denied that (nor the other many little or bigger things), but I think, not this is the main reason for that extremely strong hatred compared the other DA companions, NPCs. Yeah I think that is part of it too, despite the friendship and rivalry system, Anders always does what he does. So if you friend him, he still doesn't tell you the truth, and if you rival him you still can't change his mind. This is different from all the other companions. Isabela betrays you, but if you earned her friendship, she comes right back to help. But with Anders I guess it feels like you just can't win with him, lol. Despite his action always being the same, though, I think he's actually the companion that changes the most. His motivations and state of mind can be completely different.
|
|
inherit
Friend of Red Jenny
90
0
18,922
vertigomez
5,281
August 2016
vertigomez
|
Post by vertigomez on Feb 12, 2018 17:51:18 GMT
Anders would regret in his whole life if he wouldn't help Justice and doesn't give a chance for that opportunity. He wanted to fight for the mages, he wanted a revolution. So: this was his (their) fate. Even if Hawke kills him at the end. The fandom's hate somehow understandable: Anders is the only character Hawke can't to influence, whatever s/he do. S/He can crush him (rivalry, especially "romance"), betray him (to Elthina and Cullen, but they're blind...), and kill him, but not able to prevent him. Anders stole the starring role from the player's character, and this is unforgivable. This is interesting, but when Anders sees Thrask and the Starkhaven mages together, he welcomed the cooperation. (Sadly, Grace is a vengeful bitch.) And probably this is why he attacked the Chantry, instead of the Gallows: the Chantry (in Kirkwall Elthina) was the real enemy, not the Templars. They're only the Chantry's "executioners". But he's an Andrastian, and I don't think, he "hates" the Chantry. He worked for a more peaceful solution for years, but the peaceful solution in Kirkwall was not an option. (We saw it: not even in the Southern-Thedas. And not the mages, the Seekers and the Templars prevented the dialogue between the mages and Justinia.) He also lies about his intentions and convinces Hawke to gather ingredients for bomb while claiming it's for some potion that would separate him and Justice. That can also make someone angry. Just want to add my two cents here, don't want to come across as Anders-bashing in his own thread - but my anger isn't because the choice was taken out of our hands as players (I love that aspect of DA2; the helplessness and sense of sorrow), it's that Hawke was used, lied to, and betrayed by someone he trusted. That's it. It's an in-character response for me, not something leveled at the game or its design but at Anders specifically.
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
Oct 31, 2024 22:18:39 GMT
18,255
Catilina
11,033
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on Feb 12, 2018 18:17:32 GMT
He also lies about his intentions and convinces Hawke to gather ingredients for bomb while claiming it's for some potion that would separate him and Justice. That can also make someone angry. Just want to add my two cents here, don't want to come across as Anders-bashing in his own thread - but my anger isn't because the choice was taken out of our hands as players (I love that aspect of DA2; the helplessness and sense of sorrow), it's that Hawke was used, lied to, and betrayed by someone he trusted. That's it. It's an in-character response for me, not something leveled at the game or its design but at Anders specifically. I understand, but for sake of truth, Isabela tries something similar with the Koslun. Don't get me wrong, this not against Isabela, only against the extreme hatred what Anders get. And Anders (just as Isabela, I suppose), has trust-problems. He lived in a hostile environment (no matter, perhaps Wynne "liked" it or rather got used to it, Anders was not able, and I now speak about his viewpoint), and everyone whom he trusted betrayed him, gone, or already died.
|
|
nappilydeestruction
N2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 126 Likes: 256
inherit
9716
0
256
nappilydeestruction
126
Jan 15, 2018 17:03:02 GMT
January 2018
nappilydeestruction
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by nappilydeestruction on Feb 12, 2018 18:24:53 GMT
I think that's why Hawke's relationship whether its romanced and/or friendship is very complex and complicated. It makes the whole story more interesting. I think my Hawke as a mage was upset at what Anders did but at the same time didn't feel any sympathy for the chantry either. She also feels sorry for him and tried to help him out at least. To Hawke i think she knew something bad was gonna happen with Anders the moment they have gotten to know each other. I agree the lies from Anders didn't help his case at all. But at the same time my Hawke couldn't help but to love him so deeply. Thanks guys for your responses. And yes you are right, I guess they wanted to add the "surprise" element in the mix in the DA series.
|
|
nappilydeestruction
N2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 126 Likes: 256
inherit
9716
0
256
nappilydeestruction
126
Jan 15, 2018 17:03:02 GMT
January 2018
nappilydeestruction
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by nappilydeestruction on Feb 12, 2018 18:26:57 GMT
Just want to add my two cents here, don't want to come across as Anders-bashing in his own thread - but my anger isn't because the choice was taken out of our hands as players (I love that aspect of DA2; the helplessness and sense of sorrow), it's that Hawke was used, lied to, and betrayed by someone he trusted. That's it. It's an in-character response for me, not something leveled at the game or its design but at Anders specifically. I understand, but for sake of truth, Isabela tries something similar with the Koslun. Don't get me wrong, this not against Isabela, only against the extreme hatred what Anders get. And Anders (just as Isabela, I suppose), has trust-problems. Yes Anders did have alot of trust issues, since Awakening. I noticed that when I played the DLC, it took a long time to earn his full trust of others.
|
|
Sah291
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
Prime Posts: 1,240
Prime Likes: 1340
Posts: 862 Likes: 1,935
inherit
306
0
1,935
Sah291
862
August 2016
sah291
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
1,240
1340
|
Post by Sah291 on Feb 12, 2018 19:39:09 GMT
He also lies about his intentions and convinces Hawke to gather ingredients for bomb while claiming it's for some potion that would separate him and Justice. That can also make someone angry. Just want to add my two cents here, don't want to come across as Anders-bashing in his own thread - but my anger isn't because the choice was taken out of our hands as players (I love that aspect of DA2; the helplessness and sense of sorrow), it's that Hawke was used, lied to, and betrayed by someone he trusted. That's it. It's an in-character response for me, not something leveled at the game or its design but at Anders specifically. Of course... I was just thinking about the anger I've seen in the wider fan base. A lot people pointed out their lack of choice in the matter, and the fact we can't stop Anders no matter what options we choose. Still, his reasons for lying can be up for interpretation, depending on the relationship you have with him. On friendship path, Anders seems to think he is protecting Hawke somehow by keeping it secret, if he gets caught. On the other hand, maybe Anders thinks Hawke might betray him. I like the ambiguity of it. No matter how friendly, loyal, or sympathetic Hawke might be, or how much Hawke might trust Anders, betrayal is common when there is power or beliefs at stake. Then there's Sebastian's ultimatum, so Hawke has to either betray him, or stab Anders in the back. The game just refuses to let you walk a middle road and be neutral.
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
Oct 31, 2024 22:18:39 GMT
18,255
Catilina
11,033
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on Feb 12, 2018 19:50:12 GMT
Just want to add my two cents here, don't want to come across as Anders-bashing in his own thread - but my anger isn't because the choice was taken out of our hands as players (I love that aspect of DA2; the helplessness and sense of sorrow), it's that Hawke was used, lied to, and betrayed by someone he trusted. That's it. It's an in-character response for me, not something leveled at the game or its design but at Anders specifically. Of course... I was just thinking about the anger I've seen in the wider fan base. A lot people pointed out their lack of choice in the matter, and the fact we can't stop Anders no matter what options we choose. Still, his reasons for lying can be up for interpretation, depending on the relationship you have with him. On friendship path, Anders seems to think he is protecting Hawke somehow by keeping it secret, if he gets caught. On the other hand, maybe Anders thinks Hawke might betray him. I like the ambiguity of it. No matter how friendly, loyal, or sympathetic Hawke might be, or how much Hawke might trust Anders, betrayal is common when there is power or beliefs at stake. Then there's Sebastian's ultimatum, so Hawke has to either betray him, or stab Anders in the back. The game just refuses to let you walk a middle road and be neutral.We saw where the "neutrality" leads...
|
|
Sah291
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
Prime Posts: 1,240
Prime Likes: 1340
Posts: 862 Likes: 1,935
inherit
306
0
1,935
Sah291
862
August 2016
sah291
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
1,240
1340
|
Post by Sah291 on Feb 12, 2018 20:00:47 GMT
We saw where the "neutrality" leads... The game certainly seems to want to point out the connection between faith and apathy, and how faith can sometimes have a destructive side too when it turns into apathy. I think that's the symbolism of the sloth demon you meet in the Fade, that wanted to take over Kirkwall.
|
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
Oct 31, 2024 22:18:39 GMT
18,255
Catilina
11,033
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on Feb 12, 2018 20:51:52 GMT
We saw where the "neutrality" leads... The game certainly seems to want to point out the connection between faith and apathy, and how faith can sometimes have a destructive side too when it turns into apathy. I think that's the symbolism of the sloth demon you meet in the Fade, that wanted to take over Kirkwall. That's a good idea. Yes, many symbols there. And how Justice hates sloth, thoughts this is the worst of the demons, I suppose... This is the one that prevents every act, and drowse the purpose etc.
|
|