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Post by cloud9 on Apr 1, 2019 1:08:43 GMT
No. After the Andromeda animation fiasco, they should use Unreal Engine and not Frostbite.
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Post by Kabraxal on Apr 1, 2019 2:35:07 GMT
No. After the Andromeda animation fiasco, they should use Unreal Engine and not Frostbite. Play thr trilogy again... it had just as many janky animations. The nostalgia glasses need to be tossed off and stomped on... as for the topic: keep frostbite. Andromeda and Inquisition were some of the best looking games environmentally and the few animation hiccups are far outweighed by the superior combat the engine allows.
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Post by hulluliini on Apr 1, 2019 8:51:48 GMT
What exactly do people mean when they say FrostByte isn't suited for an RPG? Which RPG elements specifically suffer from it?
I assumed since the get-go that the problem with the animations wasn't the engine, it was the lack of time due to the crazy development cycle. They had to use a lot of automated animations because of the huge number of animations throughout the game. There are a LOT more than in any previous ME game. They had to focus on non-cosmetic issues at the expense of fine-tuning animations manually. It seems Anthem is going to have much fewer facial animations overall because it's not an RPG so of course they can make the animations look good.
And when you look at any previous ME game, it's not like they ever managed to make smiles look natural. I remember Shep looking pretty awful sometimes when waking up in ME2, just like FemRyder when she wakes up in the beginning. It's just the mouth area has more exaggerated movement in FrostByte for reasons I don't understand/know.
I did wonder about the facial animations in DICE's Mirror's Edge: Catalyst. The characters' mouths move a lot more than is natural, sort of protrude too much, and stay open more than is natural. But Mirror's Edge doesn't have nearly as many cut scenes so it didn't matter so much. But maybe it is indeed very difficult to make faces move naturally in FrostByte, for whatever reason.
But other than that? Is it all about the facial animations or something else as well? The colors and other visual effects are surely just a matter of taste and overall design decisions to have a certain feel.
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Post by Unicephalon 40-D on Apr 1, 2019 9:01:45 GMT
What exactly do people mean when they say FrostByte isn't suited for an RPG? Which RPG elements specifically suffer from it? But maybe it is indeed very difficult to make faces move naturally in FrostByte, for whatever reason. People mean "I read it on the internet and actually didnt think or know anything about it, but just parrotting because I cannot fathom to think/research" when they say that. These same people forget Frostbite is also used in Fifa, Need For Speed... I dont believe Frostbite has much to say about any facial animation, as they're usually done using other packages and Frostbite then "plays the data through"... Now I am not an expert of Frostbite but I've used other engines
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Agent 46
Clearance Level Ultra
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: ALoneGretchin
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Post by Gileadan on Apr 1, 2019 9:08:34 GMT
Frostbite is a good graphics engine that runs shooters as well as racing and sports games. I'm sure it can handle RPGs just fine. Also, animation quality has absolutely nothing to do with the engine, since animations are created using third party software like Maya or 3ds Max and then exported to whatever engine the devs are going to use.
Unreal 3 has its own troubles - anyone remember how ME3MP's AI's accuracy vs moving targets depends on the host's framerate? I'd rather not have more problems of that caliber, thank you.
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Post by garrusfan1 on Apr 1, 2019 13:12:17 GMT
No. After the Andromeda animation fiasco, they should use Unreal Engine and not Frostbite. Play thr trilogy again... it had just as many janky animations. The nostalgia glasses need to be tossed off and stomped on... as for the topic: keep frostbite. Andromeda and Inquisition were some of the best looking games environmentally and the few animation hiccups are far outweighed by the superior combat the engine allows. I am playing the trilogy again on xbox one and doing multiple saves so I can import characters with different options. I agree both have some jerky animations in them but the way unreal engine looks overall is slick and cool and not the cartoonish look that frostbite has. And the faces generally look much better as well. Unreal engine is far better in terms of looks.
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Post by 10k on Apr 1, 2019 13:34:49 GMT
I would like them to use another engine just to have better aesthetics. Andromeda characters look like The Sims characters. Personally I'm tired of the bright colors all Bioware games have now, starting with Inquisition. If they can figure out how to get a darker, more realistic aesthetic with frostbite then I'd be fine with it.
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Post by Unicephalon 40-D on Apr 1, 2019 14:58:30 GMT
Play thr trilogy again... it had just as many janky animations. The nostalgia glasses need to be tossed off and stomped on... as for the topic: keep frostbite. Andromeda and Inquisition were some of the best looking games environmentally and the few animation hiccups are far outweighed by the superior combat the engine allows. I am playing the trilogy again on xbox one and doing multiple saves so I can import characters with different options. I agree both have some jerky animations in them but the way unreal engine looks overall is slick and cool and not the cartoonish look that frostbite has. And the faces generally look much better as well. Unreal engine is far better in terms of looks. Cartoonish? I'd say 2 and 3 do look very cartoonish, the local character lighting almost pulls them out immediately from the background with almost black silhuettes around chars.. Andromeda looks more like 1 does, a stylished movie of some scifi era but I am also of the mind, that there are places where the lighting breaks up in A, it might be a bug as was the super white Nexus docks in the beginning. Or lack of time for trimming it. Anyway, its in the eye of the beholder I'd still say.
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Post by alanc9 on Apr 1, 2019 17:25:29 GMT
I would like them to use another engine just to have better aesthetics. Andromeda characters look like The Sims characters. Personally I'm tired of the bright colors all Bioware games have now, starting with Inquisition. If they can figure out how to get a darker, more realistic aesthetic with frostbite then I'd be fine with it. What does the color palette have to do with the engine?
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Post by 10k on Apr 1, 2019 17:48:01 GMT
I would like them to use another engine just to have better aesthetics. Andromeda characters look like The Sims characters. Personally I'm tired of the bright colors all Bioware games have now, starting with Inquisition. If they can figure out how to get a darker, more realistic aesthetic with frostbite then I'd be fine with it. What does the color palette have to do with the engine? Personally I don't know much about gaming engines in what their overall affect is within games, I'm a EMT not a game developer lol. However, I've just noticed each game BW have made with the frostbite engine have bright irritating colors. Like I said, if they can find a way to mitigate this using the frostbite engine, then I wouldn't mind if they use it.
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Post by alanc9 on Apr 1, 2019 18:25:36 GMT
Correlation isn't causation. Your fight's with the art department.
Note that the brighter looks of DAI and ME:A both had fan constituencies. A lot of people wanted ME to go back to ME1's look (ME2 and ME3 had already done dark, in different ways), and DA:O's and DA2's palettes took a lot of criticism for being muddy and monochromatic, respectively.
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Post by Unicephalon 40-D on Apr 1, 2019 18:42:11 GMT
Correlation isn't causation. Your fight's with the art department. Note that the brighter looks of DAI and ME:A both had fan constituencies. A lot of people wanted ME to go back to ME1's look (ME2 and ME3 had already done dark, in different ways), and DA:O's and DA2's palettes took a lot of criticism for being muddy and monochromatic, respectively. Also now they had with Frostbite excellent HDR rendering methods, better tonemapping, materials and overall shading & lighting levels to play with and none of the x360/PS3 baggage (except for DAI - I dunno how small resolution buffers they used on PS3 in the end and how limited are shadow lights, as deferred rendering can in theory render infinite lights ). They took advantage of those and for good I say. Heh, I am/was one of those, who wanted to go back to ME1's look. Still love it, mainly lighting, most of the time combined with SSAO for extra deepening of the contact shadows it looks awesome... to me.
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Post by alanc9 on Apr 1, 2019 19:38:52 GMT
I couldn't stand all the bloom in ME2, particularly. Every so often a graphics feature just gets put everywhere for no reason, like lens flare around the turn of the century.
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Post by biggydx on Apr 1, 2019 20:33:51 GMT
I think everyone, including BioWare, wishes the games went back to using the Unreal Engine. Sad part is, if reports are accurate, that BioWare chose to use the Frostbite engine. I don't know if their decision to hop in basically signaled EA into making it used across all their major titles, but they did themselves in to a degree. I absolutely think a great deal of their recent woes are attributable to that engine, and they'll continue to persist so long as they continue to use it. Inquisition, Andromeda, and Anthem, have beautiful environments, but what needed to be sacrificed in the back-end because of all the extra dev time that went into getting the games foundation set into this unwieldy engine?
There's just a lot of potential and reputation being loss over this engine, and its sad tbh.
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Post by biggydx on Apr 1, 2019 20:46:16 GMT
Frostbite is a good graphics engine that runs shooters as well as racing and sports games. I'm sure it can handle RPGs just fine. Also, animation quality has absolutely nothing to do with the engine, since animations are created using third party software like Maya or 3ds Max and then exported to whatever engine the devs are going to use. Unreal 3 has its own troubles - anyone remember how ME3MP's AI's accuracy vs moving targets depends on the host's framerate? I'd rather not have more problems of that caliber, thank you. I used to always play off-host in ME3 MP, so when I finally hosted a game and found out how absurdly high a phantoms damage resistance was while dodging, I thought my gun was bugged. That said, I'd say that Frostbite is proving to be even worse when applied to RPGs and a networking environment. - Inquisitions multiplayer had a number of notable bugs (that freakin' key bug) - Andromeda had significant rubberbanding, the Fiend glitch, and damage scaling problems - Anthem is proving to be a relative shit-show with regards to the amount of bugs and technical problems it has There's been numerous comments made by anonymous developers at BioWare that the Frostbite engine is an absolute pain in the ass to work with for open world RPG's. It's not even limited to BioWare either. Amy Hennig, former game director for Visceral Studios (now closed), was planning to build a singleplayer Star Wars game, but EA asked her to make it an open-world RPG instead. During a recent DICE Summit, she said that making such a game was already hard due to their small staff size, but the biggest hurdle was having to make the game in the Frostbite engine. Here were her quotes: “That’s sort of reductive [regarding her teams development troubles being attributable to Frostbite], but it’s useful because people can kind of visualize something in their head. But what that meant is we obviously had to take the Frostbite Engine, because there was the internal initiative to make sure that everybody was on the same technology, but it was an engine that was made to do first-person shooters not third-person traversal cinematic games... So building all of that third-person platforming and climbing and cover taking and all that stuff into an engine that wasn’t made to do that. We did a lot of foundational work that I think the teams are still benefiting from because it’s a shared engine, but it’s tough when you spend a lot of time doing foundational stuff but then don’t get to go ta-da! [laughs] You know, here’s the game.” It's just a really bad engine for anything that remotely similar to an RPG. With the way things are right now, I'd take the smaller Unreal Engine woes over whats been going on with the Frostbite engine any day tbh. Hell, you can throw in the Banshee magnet hands for free; since at least that got fixed.
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Gileadan
N5
Agent 46
Clearance Level Ultra
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: ALoneGretchin
Posts: 2,672 Likes: 6,654
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Post by Gileadan on Apr 2, 2019 6:34:03 GMT
I used to always play off-host in ME3 MP, so when I finally hosted a game and found out how absurdly high a phantoms damage resistance was while dodging, I thought my gun was bugged. That said, I'd say that Frostbite is proving to be even worse when applied to RPGs and a networking environment. - Inquisitions multiplayer had a number of notable bugs (that freakin' key bug) - Andromeda had significant rubberbanding, the Fiend glitch, and damage scaling problems - Anthem is proving to be a relative shit-show with regards to the amount of bugs and technical problems it has There's been numerous comments made by anonymous developers at BioWare that the Frostbite engine is an absolute pain in the ass to work with for open world RPG's. It's not even limited to BioWare either. Amy Hennig, former game director for Visceral Studios (now closed), was planning to build a singleplayer Star Wars game, but EA asked her to make it an open-world RPG instead. During a recent DICE Summit, she said that making such a game was already hard due to their small staff size, but the biggest hurdle was having to make the game in the Frostbite engine. Here were her quotes: “That’s sort of reductive [regarding her teams development troubles being attributable to Frostbite], but it’s useful because people can kind of visualize something in their head. But what that meant is we obviously had to take the Frostbite Engine, because there was the internal initiative to make sure that everybody was on the same technology, but it was an engine that was made to do first-person shooters not third-person traversal cinematic games... So building all of that third-person platforming and climbing and cover taking and all that stuff into an engine that wasn’t made to do that. We did a lot of foundational work that I think the teams are still benefiting from because it’s a shared engine, but it’s tough when you spend a lot of time doing foundational stuff but then don’t get to go ta-da! [laughs] You know, here’s the game.” It's just a really bad engine for anything that remotely similar to an RPG. With the way things are right now, I'd take the smaller Unreal Engine woes over whats been going on with the Frostbite engine any day tbh. Hell, you can throw in the Banshee magnet hands for free; since at least that got fixed. Well, I won't ever claim that I know better than someone like Amy Hennig. However, she's specifically referring to certain forms of traversal here - platforming and climbing, something I suspect no one else has tried with the Frostbite engine before, so yes, that would have required some foundation work and additions to the engine itself. It seems to me that she's essentially talking about building something like the Uncharted or Tomb Raider series with Frostbite. But I don't think that a lack of platforming mechanics makes Frostbite a bad engine for RPGs. How many RPGs rely on that form of traversal? Frostbite is used for the Madden and FIFA games though, which as far as I know are stat based games just like RPGs are. Claiming that Frostbite is bad in a networking environment is, uh... a rather daring statement to say the least. Frostbite runs the Battlefield games, competitive team based multiplayer games with up to 64 players on a huge map (64, not 4 like in DAIMP or MEAMP or Anthem), and it simulates bullet drop and bullet drag for all of those 64 players. If someone fires a shotgun in the Battlefield games, Frostbite calculates the flight path and flight speed of every single pellet across the entire map if need be, and it has to do that with some accuracy and speed or the Battlefield games could not run viably with it. You know what other factor the problems in Anthem, DAIMP and MEAMP have in common? BioWare. Frankly, how it is even possible mess up 4-player-MP with an engine that can run a game with 64 players is beyond me. Look at Anthem, a minimally viable product supposedly six years in the making and their almost comical string of blunders since release. How much of that looks like trouble with the graphics engine and how much looks like spaghetti code and a lack of understanding of the looter-shooter genre? BioWare couldn't fix the banter bug in DAI, essentially a timed trigger that plays audio files. But even back in Baldur's Gate 2 they made coding errors that boggle the mind, like Jaheira's romance triggering sometimes on time that had passed in the game world and sometimes on real time spent playing, then wondering why it ran out of synch. I don't think it's Frostbite. It's BioWare.
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Post by alanc9 on Apr 2, 2019 15:27:38 GMT
There's been numerous comments made by anonymous developers at BioWare that the Frostbite engine is an absolute pain in the ass to work with for open world RPG's. It's not even limited to BioWare either. Amy Hennig, former game director for Visceral Studios (now closed), was planning to build a singleplayer Star Wars game, but EA asked her to make it an open-world RPG instead. During a recent DICE Summit, she said that making such a game was already hard due to their small staff size, but the biggest hurdle was having to make the game in the Frostbite engine. Here were her quotes: “That’s sort of reductive [regarding her teams development troubles being attributable to Frostbite], but it’s useful because people can kind of visualize something in their head. But what that meant is we obviously had to take the Frostbite Engine, because there was the internal initiative to make sure that everybody was on the same technology, but it was an engine that was made to do first-person shooters not third-person traversal cinematic games... So building all of that third-person platforming and climbing and cover taking and all that stuff into an engine that wasn’t made to do that. We did a lot of foundational work that I think the teams are still benefiting from because it’s a shared engine, but it’s tough when you spend a lot of time doing foundational stuff but then don’t get to go ta-da! [laughs] You know, here’s the game.” It's just a really bad engine for anything that remotely similar to an RPG. With the way things are right now, I'd take the smaller Unreal Engine woes over whats been going on with the Frostbite engine any day tbh. Hell, you can throw in the Banshee magnet hands for free; since at least that got fixed But, again, it's too late to have this debate. The climbing, platforming, and cover-taking stuff is already built. (Honestly, I would have been OK with DAI not doing the climbing and platforming stuff in the first place, but that's just me.) Edit: unless we're talking about adding new features, that is. What would those be?
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
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XBL Gamertag: Zubi Fett
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Post by Zubi on Apr 2, 2019 20:55:42 GMT
No, the game looked and played amazingly well (that's my personal opinion).
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Post by Basquemercat117 on Apr 2, 2019 21:18:50 GMT
i dont think that will happen. but i dont think it will be as much of an issue because now that they have the forstbite tools figured out, any future development will hopefully be alot smoother.
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Post by cloud9 on Apr 3, 2019 0:15:36 GMT
No. After the Andromeda animation fiasco, they should use Unreal Engine and not Frostbite. Play thr trilogy again... it had just as many janky animations. The nostalgia glasses need to be tossed off and stomped on... as for the topic: keep frostbite. Andromeda and Inquisition were some of the best looking games environmentally and the few animation hiccups are far outweighed by the superior combat the engine allows. Baby, is your head dead?🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣😂😂😂
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Kabraxal on Apr 3, 2019 1:21:19 GMT
Play thr trilogy again... it had just as many janky animations. The nostalgia glasses need to be tossed off and stomped on... as for the topic: keep frostbite. Andromeda and Inquisition were some of the best looking games environmentally and the few animation hiccups are far outweighed by the superior combat the engine allows. Baby, is your head dead?🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣😂😂😂 So no intelligent point to be made and right to insults? Typical.
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Post by alanc9 on Apr 3, 2019 15:17:28 GMT
Claiming that Frostbite is bad in a networking environment is, uh... a rather daring statement to say the least. Frostbite runs the Battlefield games, competitive team based multiplayer games with up to 64 players on a huge map (64, not 4 like in DAIMP or MEAMP or Anthem), and it simulates bullet drop and bullet drag for all of those 64 players. If someone fires a shotgun in the Battlefield games, Frostbite calculates the flight path and flight speed of every single pellet across the entire map if need be, and it has to do that with some accuracy and speed or the Battlefield games could not run viably with it. Note that there does seem to have been an issue with inventory. Per the Schreier article, whatever came in the box didn't work for DAI, and then the DAI implementation had to be re-done because they didn't think it would scale for Anthem. (Don't have details on the specific issues for either one, though.)
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Post by alanc9 on Apr 3, 2019 15:18:14 GMT
Play thr trilogy again... it had just as many janky animations. The nostalgia glasses need to be tossed off and stomped on... as for the topic: keep frostbite. Andromeda and Inquisition were some of the best looking games environmentally and the few animation hiccups are far outweighed by the superior combat the engine allows. Baby, is your head dead?🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣😂😂😂 Is that phrase a thing? It just reads as kinda random to me.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Apr 3, 2019 15:22:34 GMT
Baby, is your head dead?🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣😂😂😂 Is that phrase a thing? It just reads as kinda random to me. Never heard it before.... Maybe it's new? 🤔 Kids these days... 😒
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Gileadan
N5
Agent 46
Clearance Level Ultra
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: ALoneGretchin
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Post by Gileadan on Apr 3, 2019 15:25:39 GMT
Note that there does seem to have been an issue with inventory. Per the Schreier article, whatever came in the box didn't work for DAI, and then the DAI implementation had to be re-done because they didn't think it would scale for Anthem. (Don't have details on the specific issues for either one, though.) Well, after reading Mr. Schreier's article I came to the conclusion that I clearly gave Frostbite a bit too much credit. I had no idea how badly documented it apparently is, and inventory is probably something that had to be newly implemented for DAI since I'm not aware of any other Frostbite game that has inventory management.
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