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Post by SirSourpuss on Apr 13, 2019 15:58:39 GMT
It's not a matter of control. L2s didn't have migraines nosebleeds or whatever other "horrific side effects" to be had because they just needed to be controlled. Even the wiki says that some are hardly stronger than an L1 while others are strong but unstable. It also says all L2s are around the same age. Sorry, but she had to be an L3. No reason it couldn't have been specially developed by Cerberus but she wasn't an L2. Too much investment in her to risk her not being useful. From the Wiki
L2 - The L2 implants were first implemented in 2167. The results vary wildly - some L2s are hardly stronger than an L1, others are strong but unstable, while a few are powerful and stable enough for combat
L3 - In 2170, the L3 implant was developed. L3 biotics are consistently stable with moderate ability; while their upper limit is less than an L2
Cerberus would need that L2 upper limit for their tests on Jack. I mean, that's what I'd do, if I were a mad scientist willing to put a little girl through a nightmare scenario, in order to produce humanity's strongest biotic. Just my two bits.
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 13, 2019 19:44:27 GMT
Cerberus would need that L2 upper limit for their tests on Jack. I mean, that's what I'd do, if I were a mad scientist willing to put a little girl through a nightmare scenario, in order to produce humanity's strongest biotic. Just my two bits. I get that. I disagree. They spent a lot of money on her. Pissing her off and isolating her is one thing. Doing something that might make her 100% useless is another.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Apr 13, 2019 19:55:51 GMT
I get that. I disagree. They spent a lot of money on her. Pissing her off and isolating her is one thing. Doing something that might make her 100% useless is another. Which is probably why a lot of kids died for her in that facility. To make sure she is as useful as possible.
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 14, 2019 2:48:00 GMT
I get that. I disagree. They spent a lot of money on her. Pissing her off and isolating her is one thing. Doing something that might make her 100% useless is another. Which is probably why a lot of kids died for her in that facility. To make sure she is as useful as possible. Unless she went insane from the wrong implant...
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Post by SirSourpuss on Apr 14, 2019 8:10:37 GMT
Which is probably why a lot of kids died for her in that facility. To make sure she is as useful as possible. Unless she went insane from the wrong implant... Well, according to the wiki, only L2 implants caused side-effects, on perhaps only L2 is known to have side-effects. Some others might too, but it is not known to this day. So it is possible.
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 14, 2019 18:30:44 GMT
Unless she went insane from the wrong implant... Well, according to the wiki, only L2 implants caused side-effects, on perhaps only L2 is known to have side-effects. Some others might too, but it is not known to this day. So it is possible. I'm pretty sure the whole reason why they moved away from L2s is because of safety. Yeah, here's the relevant part.
"L3 - In 2170, the L3 implant was developed. L3 biotics are consistently stable with moderate ability; while their upper limit is less than an L2, L3s are safe from dangerous side effects. Because of the implementation date, most L3s are 25 or younger. Some are older, having been implanted later in life."
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Post by SirSourpuss on Apr 14, 2019 22:24:21 GMT
I'd say key word here being the part. So I'm guessing it is not life threatening, or, yeah, perhaps even completely safe. But what I was referring to was this part L4 implants give a 10-15% increase in power over L3s in 90% of subjects with no currently known side effects. Or perhaps it's all due to deep psychological child induced trauma.
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Post by Garo on Apr 19, 2019 12:15:44 GMT
Jack, duuh.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Apr 19, 2019 12:35:39 GMT
Jack is powerful. Really powerful. The most powerful Biotic humanity ever produced. She might even be the strongest biotic in your party. She is, most likely, not the strongest biotic in the setting.
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 19, 2019 15:16:21 GMT
Jack is powerful. Really powerful. The most powerful Biotic humanity ever produced. She might even be the strongest biotic in your party. She is, most likely, not the strongest biotic in the setting. Only two biotics can maintain the barrier during the SM: Samara and Jack.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Apr 19, 2019 15:32:52 GMT
Jack is powerful. Really powerful. The most powerful Biotic humanity ever produced. She might even be the strongest biotic in your party. She is, most likely, not the strongest biotic in the setting. Only two biotics can maintain the barrier during the SM: Samara and Jack. Sure, but we didn't recruit Tela Vasir, nor Aria for our Suicide Mission, who also display some pretty good biotic ability. And also, there may be other biotics that we don't know about that far surpass either Jack or Samara and may be more powerful. We just don't know enough about the Milky Way to come to that judgement. In our party, yes, Jack and Samara are the most powerful ones.
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 19, 2019 15:41:24 GMT
Only two biotics can maintain the barrier during the SM: Samara and Jack. Sure, but we didn't recruit Tela Vasir, nor Aria for our Suicide Mission, who also display some pretty good biotic ability. And also, there may be other biotics that we don't know about that far surpass either Jack or Samara and may be more powerful. We just don't know enough about the Milky Way to come to that judgement. In our party, yes, Jack and Samara are the most powerful ones. Shepard defeated Tela Vasir. I'm not going to argue Aria. She's powerful but we don't know exactly how powerful.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Apr 19, 2019 15:55:14 GMT
Shepard defeated Tela Vasir With the help of Liara and one more squadmate, sure. And it's not like Shepard is a slouch to begin with.
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Post by The Biotic Trebuchet on Apr 19, 2019 17:02:50 GMT
Psst... Me.
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Post by cyberpunker on Apr 20, 2019 11:52:27 GMT
Here are my thoughts:
In terms of biotics, Asari will always naturally be better than all other races. Humans require implants, Turians actively repress their biotic development, Krogans don't take advantage of their biotics, and Salarians suck at it. Rachni biotics are strong, but we don't know how strong. Finally Angaran biology emits a more powerful biotic field than all other species. But because Andromeda absolutely sucks at storytelling, we don't know how powerful the Angarans are compared to the Asari. Indeed, we don't even meet an especially powerful Angaran biotic despite the Lore telling us they emit more powerful biotic fields than everyone else. So, Andromeda's sad unorganized writing results in us only having proof that the Asari are number 1, being altered by the Protheans and what not.
1. Morinth: Morinth is an Ardak-Yakshi who grows more powerful with every victim she consumes. And by ME3, Morinth has consumed countless. In terms of raw potential, Morinth is number 1, because not even the strongest Justicars or Matriarchs can keep growing their powers in the same way an Ardak-Yakshi can. Ardak-Yakshi are parasitical, but that just means the sky's the limit for their biotic powers.
Morinth and Samara are equal in ability, as shown in ME2 where they square off. Also Morinth is capable of maintaining the Biotic Barrier in the same way her mother can. However, Morinth does all this while still maintaining a facade of being Samara. In other words, Samara was concentrating her full might during combat and also in maintaining the Biotic Barrier. But Morinth was able to do that, while still having extra concentration to pretend to be Samara. It is kind of like a PS3 and a PC emulating a PS3. The PC has to be more powerful in order to be a PS3 while also being a PC. That's why I think Morinth is just slightly better than Samara. Also again, the fact that if it weren't for the Reapers, Morinth's growth as an unchecked Ardak-Yakshi means that her biotics can theoretically grow ad infinitum.
1.5. Samara: See above. Despite being a Matron only, Samara has reached Matriarch level abilities by virtue of her Justicar lifestyle. Justicars are full time professional Asari warriors, and unlike all other Asari, they never take a break. Finally reaching Matriarch level abilities while only being a Matron means Samara would probably be the most powerful Matriarch once she reaches that stage.
So that is probably the reason why Samara is so powerful that she can match an Ardak-Yakshi in biotics. Basically Justicars live, eat, and breath combat. And that is probably why they are so feared in Asari society, even by Asari Commandos. I just don't have her as the most powerful because Morinth has the capacity to do what Samara does...while pretending to be someone else. Also, by virtue of being Ardak-Yakshi, Morinth can grow to be exponentially more powerful than Samara.
2/3. Jack or Aria: I cannot tell who is more powerful between Jack and Aria. For starters, Jack can also maintain the Biotic Barrier. But unlike Morinth and Samara, Jack is visibly strained during that endeavor. She survives, but not as easily as Morinth or Samara. Jack is also the pinnacle of Human Biotics, being exposed to unnatural levels of Element Zero and having other manipulations done on her. The reason why Aria is at her level is because Aria manages to her biotics to open a small hole in a virtually impenetrable stasis field on Omega...through sheer will alone. That shows Aria's biotic strength is augmented by her personality and willpower, in addition to her time as an Asari Commando. We don't know how these 2 compare, but it is clear that Aria is stronger than your average Asari Commando based on what she has done.
The reason why both are weaker than Samara is because Jack strains under the Biotic Barrier; Aria is wary of Samara when they first meet. Unlike the way Aria is to other people including Shepard, Aria is not as aggressive or condescending towards Samara when they first meet. It is not just out of respect either, Aria always makes sure people know she thinks she is the Queen Bee in all her conversations. With Samara though, Aria is visibly more cautious...probably because Aria doubts her ability to survive Samara if she triggers a Justicar Code violation.
4. Matriarch Benezia: So far, Benezia is the only one to escape Indoctrination through sheer power alone...even if it is just for a moment. Nobody else manages to do so, ever. That shows her biotics are strong enough to force out even the Reapers' influence for a time. Benezia was also mentioned as not only having been a former commando, but a very powerful biotic even amongst the Matriarchs. And in terms of Lore, Matriarchs are one of the most powerful groups of Asari. So that's why she's number 4. Not sure if she can do what Jack or Aria did though.
Reading the thread though, I want to talk about others who I think people here overrate.
1. Cora. It's true Cora receives Asari Commando training and is a pretty good biotic for a human. But she clearly mentions that she was not the strongest biotic in her squad. She also does not have the full commando training that an average Asari has, being trained only as an exchange. So really, Cora at best is an average Asari Commando in terms of biotical tactics and skills. In terms of raw potential, she is just a normal human (unlike Jack). She can use her biotics to shield the crew, but so could other Asari. This is also Andromeda's writers' fault. They don't take the time to really differentiate Cora's abilities from other Asari, and they actually try to just make her out to be an Asari Commando without really explaining how that fits into their overall lore and how Cora compares to an actual Asari Commando. Andromeda writers also don't bother to emphasize the differences between Asari, Angara, and Cora's abilities in the game, so yeah.
2. Tela Vasir: We aren't really given a lot of insight into her biotic abilities. She is a Spectre and probably a former Asari Commando. That's about it. She doesn't really showcase any of her biotics that are exceptional or that show she is more talented than the any other Asari Commando. She is a Spectre though, so she probably has better combat and biotic skills than most other Asari. But that's as far as we know.
3. Liara: By virtue of being Asari, she's already ahead of the game and is the natural biotic squad-mate in ME1, ME2, and ME3. But in terms of Lore, she isn't an Asari Commando and so doesn't have extensive biotic training. She's still relatively young for an Asari. She is also a pure-blood, which is unclear if that is a hindrance against her biotic abilities but is hinted that it definitely does not help...unless she is an Ardak-Yakshi (which she is not)
4. PeeBee: See Liara. Strong biotic by virtue of being Asari. That's about all she has going for her.
Miranda/Jacob/Javik/Wrex/Kaidan are all examples of how biotics are really good in other races too, and can make them very good combatants. But these guys don't compare to the Asari and Jack lol.
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 20, 2019 14:04:36 GMT
4. Matriarch Benezia: So far, Benezia is the only one to escape Indoctrination through sheer power alone...even if it is just for a moment. TIM and Saren were both able to do so.
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Post by cyberpunker on Apr 20, 2019 19:02:48 GMT
4. Matriarch Benezia: So far, Benezia is the only one to escape Indoctrination through sheer power alone...even if it is just for a moment. TIM and Saren were both able to do so. They actually didn't. You can convince TIM to kill himself but he's still very much under control. He is just aware of it. Saren doesn't break free out of his own free will.
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 21, 2019 5:04:27 GMT
TIM and Saren were both able to do so. They actually didn't. You can convince TIM to kill himself but he's still very much under control. He is just aware of it. Saren doesn't break free out of his own deee will. Except to do these things they have to momentarily break free in order to kill themselves. Sure, Benezia managed for longer, but the others managed for long enough. Yes, they knew they were indoctrinated, but so did Benezia. As for Saren, he was so interlinked with Sovereign that his destruction wrecked the Reaper enough so that it could be taken down.
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Post by cyberpunker on Apr 21, 2019 7:01:53 GMT
They actually didn't. You can convince TIM to kill himself but he's still very much under control. He is just aware of it. Saren doesn't break free out of his own deee will. Except to do these things they have to momentarily break free in order to kill themselves. Sure, Benezia managed for longer, but the others managed for long enough. Yes, they knew they were indoctrinated, but so did Benezia. As for Saren, he was so interlinked with Sovereign that his destruction wrecked the Reaper enough so that it could be taken down. True, TIM was aware that he was indoctrinated. I think Benezia actually overcame indoctrination to become her old self though. That was the difference. TIM never did become his old self. Saren was interlinked and only had a few glimpses of sanity right before he faded. I was just pointing out that Benezia was a powerful enough biotic to actually break free by herself.
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Post by melbella on Apr 21, 2019 15:09:54 GMT
I was just pointing out that Benezia was a powerful enough biotic to actually break free by herself. Yes, no Shepard magic persuasion needed. If Shepard doesn't use the magic persuasion options, neither Saren nor TIM break free from Reaper control (and in the case of TIM you can get a game over screen if you then miss the renegade interrupt to shoot him).
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Post by garrusfan1 on Apr 21, 2019 19:14:50 GMT
4. Matriarch Benezia: So far, Benezia is the only one to escape Indoctrination through sheer power alone...even if it is just for a moment. TIM and Saren were both able to do so. How does escaping indoctrination make her a strong biotic? I don't see what one has to do with another. Maybe I am missing something there but I just don't see the connection.
Also I always thought the matriarch benezia did what she did because she is an asari and they have that weird mind melding crap. Like how at prority earth when we talk to liara she has us go inside her head to see her memories like on a movie screen. She said that asari do that with friends and loved ones. I have to think benezia used something like that to seal a small part of her off until she could use it.
TIM and Saren don't have that ability.
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Post by cyberpunker on Apr 22, 2019 3:25:33 GMT
TIM and Saren were both able to do so. How does escaping indoctrination make her a strong biotic? I don't see what one has to do with another. Maybe I am missing something there but I just don't see the connection.
Also I always thought the matriarch benezia did what she did because she is an asari and they have that weird mind melding crap. Like how at prority earth when we talk to liara she has us go inside her head to see her memories like on a movie screen. She said that asari do that with friends and loved ones. I have to think benezia used something like that to seal a small part of her off until she could use it.
TIM and Saren don't have that ability.
I thought her breaking free from indoctrination was due to using her biotic mental abilities? Isn't the Asari Mind Meld thing related to their biotics anyways? That theory still puts it as a biotic ability she uses.
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Post by garrusfan1 on Apr 22, 2019 20:05:36 GMT
How does escaping indoctrination make her a strong biotic? I don't see what one has to do with another. Maybe I am missing something there but I just don't see the connection.
Also I always thought the matriarch benezia did what she did because she is an asari and they have that weird mind melding crap. Like how at prority earth when we talk to liara she has us go inside her head to see her memories like on a movie screen. She said that asari do that with friends and loved ones. I have to think benezia used something like that to seal a small part of her off until she could use it.
TIM and Saren don't have that ability.
I thought her breaking free from indoctrination was due to using her biotic mental abilities? Isn't the Asari Mind Meld thing related to their biotics anyways? That theory still puts it as a biotic ability she uses. I don't think so. I think it is an asari thing. Maybe it's related to the biotics in some way but I think it is an asari thing. I believe that is one of the things the protheans did to the asari when they altered them. Because if that is related to biotics (their mind meld things) then no non asari can come close in terms of biotic strength (except javik) since no other species can do it.
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Post by cyberpunker on Apr 23, 2019 2:15:51 GMT
I thought her breaking free from indoctrination was due to using her biotic mental abilities? Isn't the Asari Mind Meld thing related to their biotics anyways? That theory still puts it as a biotic ability she uses. I don't think so. I think it is an asari thing. Maybe it's related to the biotics in some way but I think it is an asari thing. I believe that is one of the things the protheans did to the asari when they altered them. Because if that is related to biotics (their mind meld things) then no non asari can come close in terms of biotic strength (except javik) since no other species can do it. Hmm. Maybe. Which is weird because that just means Liara and Shiala basically Asari-Mate with Shepard as a "surprise" move. I guess Benezia could have broken free b/c of the Asari Mind Meld. If that's the case though, all Asari can break free of indoctrination. Benezia was the only one to break free on her own. And the only thing differentiating Benezia from other indoctrinated Asari is her more powerful biotics.
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 23, 2019 5:22:23 GMT
I don't think so. I think it is an asari thing. Maybe it's related to the biotics in some way but I think it is an asari thing. I believe that is one of the things the protheans did to the asari when they altered them. Because if that is related to biotics (their mind meld things) then no non asari can come close in terms of biotic strength (except javik) since no other species can do it. Hmm. Maybe. Which is weird because that just means Liara and Shiala basically Asari-Mate with Shepard as a "surprise" move. I guess Benezia could have broken free b/c of the Asari Mind Meld. If that's the case though, all Asari can break free of indoctrination. Benezia was the only one to break free on her own. And the only thing differentiating Benezia from other indoctrinated Asari is her more powerful biotics. Do we actually know that "embrace eternity" is a biotic ability? It's a subset of how they reproduce so I'm not sure it counts. Given that, I don't think it applies in regard to resisting indoctrination.. You could say Benezia had strong willpower, which may not be unexpected from someone who is over 700 years of age.
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