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Post by Beerfish on May 28, 2019 2:09:12 GMT
I'll be ecstatic if I get the option to greatly cripple the qun in the next game. If they let me invade par vollen and kick the Qunari back across the sea to wherever they came from Solas can have the rest of the world.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by melbella on May 28, 2019 2:18:49 GMT
these conversations makes it feel like Bioware stretched the lore quite a bit to try and make the Qun more palatable and accepting, or bull has some heavily rose tinted glasses on. Doesn't matter, there's not much that can make the Qunari look good imo I really fail to see how the Qun was made to look anything but bad in DAI. Bull doesn't get into gory details but he doesn't sugar coat what an invasion will look like, nor what it would do to the people who fight back.
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Post by Syv on May 28, 2019 6:28:00 GMT
these conversations makes it feel like Bioware stretched the lore quite a bit to try and make the Qun more palatable and accepting, or bull has some heavily rose tinted glasses on. Doesn't matter, there's not much that can make the Qunari look good imo I really fail to see how the Qun was made to look anything but bad in DAI. Bull doesn't get into gory details but he doesn't sugar coat what an invasion will look like, nor what it would do to the people who fight back. There is a whole world between what will happen after an invasion of the Qunari if only you resist to the Qun, and what will happen under their new organized society at peace. Of course it looks less bad if it isn't for the mages, where they are badly treated everywhere except in Tevinter. ( not as much I'd say though, ) It isn"t as bad as it looks for a woman now that lives under their new society and they appear less rigid. How could you not see that ? It's a very important point, and it seems to me that the team writers " rather progressive " were aware of that and wanted to fix that a little. You are having rose tinted glasses at this point. They wanted a transgender among the Qunari, that's the story they wanted to make, and for that to be possible, the Qunari got retconned, as simple as that, because they came to realize that it was not possible with what they got from DAO. I'm just reading the evidences people put in this thread, and it's terribly obvious. I don't even know why there is a debate at this level. There is a whole world between Sten and Bull, to the point that the latter seems like a modern progressive that came out of nowhere, on that specific issue. Of course that the Qunari seem suddenly in a way " more progressive " now than they appeared in DAO. You guy sometimes try too hard ... That's like the fans of Harry Potter that blindly refuse to believe that Hermione got retconned, when J.K Rowkling claimed Hermione was not white several years after the books, simply because the author said so, believing like sheeps, despite the evidences in front of their eyes. It's getting old. But if they remove their rose tinted glasses, if you are intellectually honest, yes, you are forced to recognize that her author retconned her own character to please some community or some folks, I guess, for whatever reason that she suddenly felt important to her. The thing is there are several pages in the books that pointed out the WHITE FACE of Hermione, as much as her white face blushing. She is as white as Harry Potter. But no, Hermione is not white. Jeez.
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Post by Kappa Neko on May 28, 2019 7:31:41 GMT
^So much this! Amazing how some people can't see what's going on. I find it especially problematic in light of all the young women in the west who suddenly turn the hijab into a symbol of feminism (!) because it somehow now battles male objectification?! This is beyond bizarre.
So no, I don't like Bioware suggesting the Qun is now a safe haven for 0,1% of the population like that makes any difference to anyone but Krem. And it WAS heavy handed. But at least it wasn't totally stupid and absurd like this topic was in Andromeda, in a universe where transgender people should be indistinguishable from the rest of the population thanks to advanced medical prodecures. So why would somebody make a point of reminding a stranger that they were once a different gender? That defeats the point. That was ridiculous political bullshit. So were asari pronouns.
There has been a very noticeable shift not only in Bioware games. I didn't even know about the Harry Potter white denial fiasco. That's hilarious. And sad. Western society has gone completely crazy with identity politics.
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Post by Absafraginlootly on May 28, 2019 8:22:40 GMT
My understanding of the qunari was that
Good Fighter = Warrior Role, Warrior Role = Male, therefore Good Fighter = Male, whether they like it or not.
If being a fighter is what the Tamassrans think your best at then that means your male, which is great if your a transman or cisman, not so much for ciswomen and transwomen. Likewise a man whose best suited to being a baker or other female identified role would be considered a woman, whether they like it or not.
So instead of "You are male/female, therefore you fullfill this role" its "You fullfill this role, therefore you are male/female". Which seems differently repressive rather then less repressive. And that's not even getting into the fact that you have no say in what you job/role is, no freedom to choose something different, even if your not very good at it, because its what you want.
Atleast that is the impression that the the dragon age games so far have given me. It may change as we learn more.
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Post by Sartoz on May 28, 2019 9:45:31 GMT
Nothing wrong with supporting a studio that made games that you like ... such as Dragon Age.
I object, however, when the Dragon Age franchise gets muddied and twisted and shredded, such as core foundations, like mage abilities are torn away and replaced by anathematic combat mechanics & abilities. That's when DA4 becomes a Dragon Age game in name only. That I do not support. Especially if the marketing department will call it something like: (1) Dragon Age: Andraste's Rebellion (2) Dragon Age: The Qunari Invasion (3) Dragon Age: The Tevinter Uprising.
However, if the words Dragon Age is omitted from the title, then I support the studio in its endevours, as my beloved franchise remains true. As an example, I give you Mass Effect, which stayed true to it's core. It's a franchise that I also love.
DA:I strayed from the path. DA4, I fear, will be just a verstige of what once was... an awesome franchise.
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Post by Polka Dot on May 28, 2019 15:49:07 GMT
My understanding of the qunari was that Good Fighter = Warrior Role, Warrior Role = Male, therefore Good Fighter = Male, whether they like it or not. If being a fighter is what the Tamassrans think your best at then that means your male, which is great if your a transman or cisman, not so much for ciswomen and transwomen. Likewise a man whose best suited to being a baker or other female identified role would be considered a woman, whether they like it or not. So instead of "You are male/female, therefore you fullfill this role" its "You fullfill this role, therefore you are male/female". Which seems differently repressive rather then less repressive. And that's not even getting into the fact that you have no say in what you job/role is, no freedom to choose something different, even if your not very good at it, because its what you want. Atleast that is the impression that the the dragon age games so far have given me. It may change as we learn more. I've often wondered just exactly how that job/role assignment process works. Mind you, I've not delved into any of the books or other supporting materials, just played the games, so am not as well informed wrt the lore and whatnot as others may be. But here's the thing: via observation and life experience, I've come to believe that people tend to be good at doing things they like and like doing things they do well. People often reach their optimal productivity and success when they get in the zone of doing something they like and doing it well. I'm not quite sure of the cause -> effect relationship, as it seems to work both ways (enjoy <-> excel). I suspect the Tamassrans know this, and heavily weigh each young qunari's natural aptitude and preferences in assigning their roles. The qunari hate waste, and it would be foolish to stick someone in a vocation for which they have no natural aptitude or interest.
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Post by alanc9 on May 28, 2019 17:41:26 GMT
You guy sometimes try too hard ... That's like the fans of Harry Potter that blindly refuse to believe that Hermione got retconned, when J.K Rowkling claimed Hermione was not white several years after the books, simply because the author said so, believing like sheeps, despite the evidences in front of their eyes. It's getting old. But if they remove their rose tinted glasses, if you are intellectually honest, yes, you are forced to recognize that her author retconned her own character to please some community or some folks, I guess, for whatever reason that she suddenly felt important to her. The thing is there are several pages in the books that pointed out the WHITE FACE of Hermione, as much as her white face blushing. She is as white as Harry Potter. But no, Hermione is not white. Jeez. Authors sometimes forget what they established. Surely I don't need to tell a Bio fan this. Rowling was trying to fix a mistake. Muggle demographics should have matched those of the contemporary UK even if wizard demographics are whiter.
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Staff Mini-Profile Theme: Heimdall
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Post by Heimdall on May 28, 2019 18:09:39 GMT
You guy sometimes try too hard ... That's like the fans of Harry Potter that blindly refuse to believe that Hermione got retconned, when J.K Rowkling claimed Hermione was not white several years after the books, simply because the author said so, believing like sheeps, despite the evidences in front of their eyes. It's getting old. But if they remove their rose tinted glasses, if you are intellectually honest, yes, you are forced to recognize that her author retconned her own character to please some community or some folks, I guess, for whatever reason that she suddenly felt important to her. The thing is there are several pages in the books that pointed out the WHITE FACE of Hermione, as much as her white face blushing. She is as white as Harry Potter. But no, Hermione is not white. Jeez. Authors sometimes forget what they established. Surely I don't need to tell a Bio fan this. Rowling was trying to fix a mistake. Muggle demographics should have matched those of the contemporary UK even if wizard demographics are whiter. Did they not? There were several specifically named black wizards in the books, including Lee Jordan, Fred and George’s best friend, and Angelina, Harry’s Quidditch teammate, and Kingsley Shacklebolt, an auror and important order of the phoenix member. But I’ll leave the Harry Potter stuff at that.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on May 29, 2019 0:09:02 GMT
You guy sometimes try too hard ... This whole argument is futile. First of all, nobody elected Sten to be the one true expert of all things Qun. Why should his statements be treated as the only true interpretation of doctrine? Particularly since he was portrayed as kind of a moron. Even our own real world experts can’t agree on issues of doctrine. Second, and more importantly, Bioware in general and Patrick Weekes + David Gaider in particular, have gone out of their way to convince us that nothing in lore is sacred. Thedas history is a pack of lies. Every narrator is unreliable. You’re a naive fool for taking anything revealed in lore, including eye witness testimony or things you see with your own eyes, as unalloyed and everlasting truth. The whole setting is rigged for retconning, and they make that out to be some kind of edgy, postmodern virtue. “Don’t believe everything you hear,” is transformed into, “Don’t believe anything you hear.” Case in point: the whole Jaws of Hakkon story. The Chantry perpetrated a giant cover-up because Ameridan was a Dales elf. Solas would laugh at y’all.
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Post by Aliaspig on May 29, 2019 0:22:23 GMT
This thread is a big YIKES
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Post by pessimistpanda on May 29, 2019 0:43:20 GMT
You guy sometimes try too hard ... That's like the fans of Harry Potter that blindly refuse to believe that Hermione got retconned, when J.K Rowkling claimed Hermione was not white several years after the books, simply because the author said so, believing like sheeps, despite the evidences in front of their eyes. It's getting old. But if they remove their rose tinted glasses, if you are intellectually honest, yes, you are forced to recognize that her author retconned her own character to please some community or some folks, I guess, for whatever reason that she suddenly felt important to her. The thing is there are several pages in the books that pointed out the WHITE FACE of Hermione, as much as her white face blushing. She is as white as Harry Potter. But no, Hermione is not white. Jeez. Authors sometimes forget what they established. Surely I don't need to tell a Bio fan this. Rowling was trying to fix a mistake. Muggle demographics should have matched those of the contemporary UK even if wizard demographics are whiter. Also, Rowling said no such thing. She said that the books never specify Hermione as white, which, true or not, isn't the same thing at all as saying that Hermione is canonically black. Also, who the fuck cares? I don't see anyone in here raising a similar fuss about foreign properties adapting for Western audiences by making the cast majority white. This slavish adherence to 'canon' only applies when the change is viewed as some sort of threat to the already enormous presence of white, straight people in media.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by melbella on May 29, 2019 0:53:46 GMT
This whole argument is futile. It would also be a lot more relevant if Krem was or ever had been a card-carrying member of the Qun. He isn't. He never was. He *works for* a Qunari spy, one who hasn't been back home in years and is still recovering from a mental breakdown.
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Post by colfoley on May 29, 2019 1:26:16 GMT
You guy sometimes try too hard ... This whole argument is futile. First of all, nobody elected Sten to be the one true expert of all things Qun. Why should his statements be treated as the only true interpretation of doctrine? Particularly since he was portrayed as kind of a moron. Even our own real world experts can’t agree on issues of doctrine. Second, and more importantly, Bioware in general and Patrick Weekes + David Gaider in particular, have gone out of their way to convince us that nothing in lore is sacred. Thedas history is a pack of lies. Every narrator is unreliable. You’re a naive fool for taking anything revealed in lore, including eye witness testimony or things you see with your own eyes, as unalloyed and everlasting truth. The whole setting is rigged for retconning, and they make that out to be some kind of edgy, postmodern virtue. “Don’t believe everything you hear,” is transformed into, “Don’t believe anything you hear.” Case in point: the whole Jaws of Hakkon story. The Chantry perpetrated a giant cover-up because Ameridan was a Dales elf. Solas would laugh at y’all. by 'they' are you talking about the writers?
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Post by Polka Dot on May 29, 2019 1:32:22 GMT
Authors sometimes forget what they established. Surely I don't need to tell a Bio fan this. Rowling was trying to fix a mistake. Muggle demographics should have matched those of the contemporary UK even if wizard demographics are whiter. Also, Rowling said no such thing. She said that the books never specify Hermione as white, which, true or not, isn't the same thing at all as saying that Hermione is canonically black. Also, who the fuck cares? I don't see anyone in here raising a similar fuss about foreign properties adapting for Western audiences by making the cast majority white. This slavish adherence to 'canon' only applies when the change is viewed as some sort of threat to the already enormous presence of white, straight people in media. Did no-one ever tell you? It's only SJW enforced identity politics when it involves a character who is something other than white, straight, cis-gendered, and fully sexual. There are no identity politics whatsoever involved when all characters possess all of those traits.
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Post by Syv on May 29, 2019 3:28:16 GMT
You guy sometimes try too hard ... This whole argument is futile. First of all, nobody elected Sten to be the one true expert of all things Qun. Why should his statements be treated as the only true interpretation of doctrine? Particularly since he was portrayed as kind of a moron. Even our own real world experts can’t agree on issues of doctrine. Second, and more importantly, Bioware in general and Patrick Weekes + David Gaider in particular, have gone out of their way to convince us that nothing in lore is sacred. Thedas history is a pack of lies. Every narrator is unreliable. You’re a naive fool for taking anything revealed in lore, including eye witness testimony or things you see with your own eyes, as unalloyed and everlasting truth. The whole setting is rigged for retconning, and they make that out to be some kind of edgy, postmodern virtue. “Don’t believe everything you hear,” is transformed into, “Don’t believe anything you hear.” Case in point: the whole Jaws of Hakkon story. The Chantry perpetrated a giant cover-up because Ameridan was a Dales elf. Solas would laugh at y’all. You are saying nothing new. Thank you, we are already aware that the writers can add content to the lore, even contradictory, especially change the lore like whatever the hell they want and do anything with it if they want to. We've already seen it with the Qunari and dead Leliana that they needed alive for the next game finally. So they used a process to explain why she wasn't dead finally for those that killed her and cut off her head in their game in DAO. It's been a long time that they said they wanted representation to be a thing in their game, it's done in DA:I pretty much. Their will. " Naive fool ", ironic words. That made me smile. You are also a naïve fool it seems. The lore depends on the will of the writers. If they want to retcon something, they'll do it, and it will be just " you don't know everything yet " and you'll take it as word of god. The example of J.K Rowling was just there to prove that point actually. Too bad that she already wrote the words that bother her so much now. If everyones suddenly turns gay, you'll take it, as much as anything else, because, yes, the lore, the story, everything depends on the will of the writers. They can do whatever the hell they want with their story. They can retcon anything, and people can only deal with it and take it. That's the thing, yeah. I'm probably less naive than you are. But don't expect people to be all blind sheeps before things they see, read, and witness, from games to games, m'okay ? That's your prerogative.
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Post by Tekehu's booty on May 29, 2019 3:42:53 GMT
I mean I have nothing against straight white cis-men but I dont know why I have to endure them and their identity politics in my games tbh what about the children? think about dem and dont get me wrong, my father is white and straight, I even have many straight friends and I love them but why it has to be all about their politics, like ... girl the children.
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Post by Syv on May 29, 2019 4:09:09 GMT
My understanding of the qunari was that Good Fighter = Warrior Role, Warrior Role = Male, therefore Good Fighter = Male, whether they like it or not. If being a fighter is what the Tamassrans think your best at then that means your male, which is great if your a transman or cisman, not so much for ciswomen and transwomen. Likewise a man whose best suited to being a baker or other female identified role would be considered a woman, whether they like it or not. So instead of "You are male/female, therefore you fullfill this role" its "You fullfill this role, therefore you are male/female". Which seems differently repressive rather then less repressive. And that's not even getting into the fact that you have no say in what you job/role is, no freedom to choose something different, even if your not very good at it, because its what you want. Atleast that is the impression that the the dragon age games so far have given me. It may change as we learn more. It was certain the POV of Sten was in part based on biology, distinctions between males and females. The first thing he notices is the female attributes and a woman fighting and being the leader. Male = warriors, women = other things that have nothing to do with it. If that was already the case in DAO, why Sten is so confused by the female warden being a woman AND a warrior, instead of already seeing her as male ? He obviously could see since the beginning she is a hell of a fighter, if anything he is even more confused and keeps investigating, doubtful during the whole game, and keeps asking questions. If that rule was already applying with him, he would already be certain she was a male since according to you, good fighter = male. And when finally Sten comes to that conclusion after thinking for a while, and STATES that she is necessarily a male, it's obvious, especially with his tone that he is just trying to rationalize something he doesn't truly understand and doesn't want to accept, different from what he always witnessed and had learned. That's his personality, that's him trying to find some answers. It's not an established rule already applying to the Qunari. Also at the end, you win his respect AS A WOMAN AND A WARRIOR. ( my female warden earned his respect ) Why would he consider such thing, when he would consider since the beginning that good fighter = male ? No he thought that she couldn't be a warrior because women aren't fit for that, it's not their role. It's that rigid. The warden showed him that it wasn't necessarily true, and he would evolve on that matter. Which is what was beautiful in the end.
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Post by cankiie on May 29, 2019 10:11:36 GMT
Identity-politics are weird.
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Partying like it's 1999
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Post by Little Bengel on May 29, 2019 11:00:01 GMT
This thread is a big YIKES I think it may well go past the realm of 'big' and turn into a gigantic megayike singularity... discussions like these often end up as such. Things have become overblown past the point of seriousness.
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Post by Little Bengel on May 29, 2019 11:13:39 GMT
I really don't think they retconned the Qunari stance on gender. Morrigan: Look around you, then. You see women throughout this land, fighters and mages both. Sten: That has yet to be proven. Morrigan: Which? That they fight? Or that they are female? Sten: Either. Morrigan: So I am not truly a woman to you? Hmm. 'Tis good to know. This pretty closely mirrors some of Bull's dialogue with Cassandra about her being a warrior: Cassandra: And... do you think of me as male, then? Iron Bull: Depends. In or out of your armor? The fuck they didn't. Sten was clear on his views. They want to softball everything now. It's a different universe, not our own. Keep modern trends out of it. Allow me to emphasize Morrigan and Sten's dialogue for you: Morrigan: Which? That they fight? Or that they are female?Sten: Either.Morrigan: So I am not truly a woman to you? Hmm. 'Tis good to know. I'm not invested much in identity politics, but it seems clear to me that the general idea for Qunari gender roles has always been implied to be close to what we got in Inquisition, and that's not getting into how Bull, being a Qunari spy, could have put a more positive spin on the idea.
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Someday a cat will give me magical powers and I'll be married to a werewolf #goals #WerewolfLIforDA4
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nickclark89
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Tekehu's booty on May 29, 2019 13:46:41 GMT
Identity-politics are weird. yeah we been trying to say that us existing is not politicsTM so tell me about it bruh
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Post by alanc9 on May 29, 2019 16:17:13 GMT
The fuck they didn't. Sten was clear on his views. They want to softball everything now. It's a different universe, not our own. Keep modern trends out of it. Allow me to emphasize Morrigan and Sten's dialogue for you: Morrigan: Which? That they fight? Or that they are female?Sten: Either.Morrigan: So I am not truly a woman to you? Hmm. 'Tis good to know. I'm not invested much in identity politics, but it seems clear to me that the general idea for Qunari gender roles has always been implied to be close to what we got in Inquisition, and that's not getting into how Bull, being a Qunari spy, could have put a more positive spin on the idea. Same thing for conversations between Sten and female Wardens. Whenever people look for an actual contradiction between what Sten says and what DAI shows, they can't find one. What's actually happening is that Sten's dialog was cryptic enough -- Sten's awfully taciturn -- for people to be able to project their existing views onto Thedas. Turns out they were wrong.
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Post by alanc9 on May 29, 2019 16:22:14 GMT
You guy sometimes try too hard ... This whole argument is futile. First of all, nobody elected Sten to be the one true expert of all things Qun. Why should his statements be treated as the only true interpretation of doctrine? Particularly since he was portrayed as kind of a moron. Even our own real world experts can’t agree on issues of doctrine. Second, and more importantly, Bioware in general and Patrick Weekes + David Gaider in particular, have gone out of their way to convince us that nothing in lore is sacred. Thedas history is a pack of lies. Every narrator is unreliable. You’re a naive fool for taking anything revealed in lore, including eye witness testimony or things you see with your own eyes, as unalloyed and everlasting truth. The whole setting is rigged for retconning, and they make that out to be some kind of edgy, postmodern virtue. “Don’t believe everything you hear,” is transformed into, “Don’t believe anything you hear.” Case in point: the whole Jaws of Hakkon story. The Chantry perpetrated a giant cover-up because Ameridan was a Dales elf. Solas would laugh at y’all. Right. You remember the whole fuss over the rules of magic as set out in the Codex, I'm sure. Those rules are presented as written by a Circle mage, and even in DA:O itself we are explicitly told and explicitly shown that the Circle mages do not know all there is to know about how magic works.
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Post by alanc9 on May 29, 2019 16:28:07 GMT
The fuck they didn't. Sten was clear on his views. They want to softball everything now. It's a different universe, not our own. Keep modern trends out of it. This is incoherent. Thedas is a different world than ours, yep, which means that "modern" isn't a relevant concept. Things happened in a different order there than they did here. Some things which are new here are old there. If you thought that Thedas was ever meant to map exactly onto any particular past era of our world, you were simply wrong. Deal.
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