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Post by Iddy on Apr 8, 2020 3:59:53 GMT
As in the title.
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Post by alanc9 on Apr 8, 2020 22:58:03 GMT
Huh?
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Apr 8, 2020 23:03:42 GMT
...I think she sold sick people to the Red Templars in Emprise du Lion?
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Post by Iddy on Apr 9, 2020 1:44:25 GMT
...I think she sold sick people to the Red Templars in Emprise du Lion? No, no, no... it can't be. My thread doesn't have your approval? How will I live with this?
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Post by githcheater on Apr 9, 2020 2:43:42 GMT
...I think she sold sick people to the Red Templars in Emprise du Lion? No, no, no... it can't be. My thread doesn't have your approval? How will I live with this? You might have to settle for approval from a minor poster.
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Post by Iddy on Apr 9, 2020 2:53:56 GMT
No, no, no... it can't be. My thread doesn't have your approval? How will I live with this? You might have to settle for approval from a minor poster. That will do, Githy. That will do.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Apr 9, 2020 2:58:16 GMT
No, no, no... it can't be. My thread doesn't have your approval? How will I live with this? I have no idea what this means.
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Post by bear on Apr 10, 2020 5:16:09 GMT
Given that she had no way of defending the town, she did what was neccesary under the circumstances. Since word did get to the Inq that the town needed help, I usually just sentence her mildly - the "help the people of sarhnia" option.
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Post by phoray on Apr 11, 2020 0:06:17 GMT
No. She was not right. I had to look into this a bit more, as I had forgotten why I'd written her off as a monster. That she sold the Quarry is whatever. The Templars were not known enemies of anyone but the mage rebellion Pre Coryface's destruction of Haven. Especially if opening the mines meant the economy could have been stimulated and long term that would mean they wouldn't have been entirely reliant on the favor of others. This is a statement she makes during judgement, to show that she really had people's well being at heart. but the information in Quarry Quandary lets you know she was specifically targeting and selling people to the Templars in some sort of slavery weirdness. And that it didn't take long for her to realize that anyone sent to these mines would die or at the very minimum, disappear forever, as she started sending the old, infirm, the dying, as slaves in place of the other options. She could have sold the mine, and when she saw that the workers were being sent to their death, come clean and told everyone to give up on the town. Used what little income she had left to rent some wagons and horses and pay there way elsewhere as a best case scenario. Told everyone it was up to them what to decide to do but she was outta there regardless as a worst option. But selling people as slaves one by one to a mysterious outcome or likely death to buy a week for the few remaining people who were too stubborn to leave and too blind to question was not the answer. At the end of the day, she was a slave trader who rationalized her deeds while infantalizing her own people. I don't usually vote for execution except in teh case of Erimond, as he truly truly believes in what he's doing and enjoys the pain in others. Lacking a mental health system to submit such a sociopath to, death is the appropriate option as he is not redeemable. But I don't see the other options for Mistress Poulin as matching her crimes either.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Apr 11, 2020 5:44:36 GMT
I'm not sure?
It's been a while, but I think I remember Harding saying that she'd had trouble getting into Sahnria due to the winter weather (which is odd enough given that it seems to be summer everywhere else: maybe the Venatori did it to make the Red Templars' job easier?) If even she's having trouble, despite her background as a wilderness scout, I'm not sure a mass exodus of civilians is feasible.
If I'm misremembering the situation, and trying to evacuate the town was an option, then they should have taken it. It's not suddenly a good situation, because the Templars would have to be complete idiots not to have scouts watching for this, but they'd at least have a chance. But if it was completely infeasible thanks to the snow, then I'm not sure Poulin had any options better than the one she chose.
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Apr 22, 2020 11:30:31 GMT
Given that she had no way of defending the town, she did what was neccesary under the circumstances. Since word did get to the Inq that the town needed help, I usually just sentence her mildly - the "help the people of sarhnia" option. Yeah most of m yquizzies go lenient with her because sh did mean well she just had no other means to keep Sahrnia afloat befoer the Inquisition gets there
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Post by Sokemis on Apr 22, 2020 21:19:10 GMT
Although I can accept that she might have thought she was doing the only thing she could, and was maybe doing it for the right reasons, I cannot say that I think she was right. It still comes down to the fact that she was selling the people she was supposed to protect into slavery and possibly worse. It's bee a while since I've done that quest, but IIRC, she didn't even try to reach out to outside help, even when the Inquisitor arrived in the town.
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Apr 22, 2020 22:46:42 GMT
Although I can accept that she might have thought she was doing the only thing she could, and was maybe doing it for the right reasons, I cannot say that I think she was right. It still comes down to the fact that she was selling the people she was supposed to protect into slavery and possibly worse. It's bee a while since I've done that quest, but IIRC, she didn't even try to reach out to outside help, even when the Inquisitor arrived in the town. Yeah it's ben a while since I played i ttoo and I agree sh edi dd owron gbut I don't think she had much of a choice givemn tha tth eTemplars likedl ywould have put a sword through her and took everyon nyway. At least this wa yaroun d she was able t ohold out long enough for help to arrive.
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Post by phoray on Apr 23, 2020 0:46:56 GMT
Also, if the Templars could get in soldiers and supplies enough to trade to Poulin for her people, there were obviously pathways in and out of the place if you knew the area. Harding may not have known the paths at first, but she wasn't from around there. Poulin and the townspeople had lived there a long time. So my idea of her realizing the stakes were too high and saying everyone should abandon the place was a viable option. the addition of the concern that maybe they were being watched by the Templars so their escape would have been blocked has no support in game. you're just creating excuses to try to make what she did make sense. . At least this wa yaroun d she was able t ohold out long enough for help to arrive Again, she says nothing to imply that this was her plan or concern.
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Apr 23, 2020 1:42:07 GMT
Also, if the Templars could get in soldiers and supplies enough to trade to Poulin for her people, there were obviously pathways in and out of the place if you knew the area. Harding may not have known the paths at first, but she wasn't from around there. Poulin and the townspeople had lived there a long time. So my idea of her realizing the stakes were too high and saying everyone should abandon the place was a viable option. the addition of the concern that maybe they were being watched by the Templars so their escape would have been blocked has no support in game. you're just creating excuses to try to make what she did make sense. . At least this wa yaroun d she was able t ohold out long enough for help to arrive Again, she says nothing to imply that this was her plan or concern. Prehaps perhaps not but I think it'snpot necessarily down to what she says but how she acts too. Most of my quizzies are generally lenient with her anywa yas that's how they feel in that she only did wha tshe did to try and keep people as safe as possible. S generally try to go withthe mos tlenient option available as punishment.
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Post by phoray on Apr 23, 2020 2:08:03 GMT
what she he says but how she acts too Her acts are that she knowingly sold people to the Templars for food. And then continued to do so after she knew they were being murdered or disappeared. She didn't explain any of the stakes/problems/issues with any of her people and unilaterally made all of the choices. These are facts. what other acts am I supposed to be considering?
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Apr 23, 2020 2:44:33 GMT
what she he says but how she acts too Her acts are that she knowingly sold people to the Templars for food. And then continued to do so after she knew they were being murdered or disappeared. She didn't explain any of the stakes/problems/issues with any of her people and unilaterally made all of the choices. These are facts. what other acts am I supposed to be considering? That the templars cfould hav eeasil yjust charged in and killed everyone? After all let's not forget the Templars aer trained warriors the ycould hav eeasil yheld the town hostag eand killed everyon efor not complying.
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Post by phoray on Apr 23, 2020 2:49:06 GMT
Her acts are that she knowingly sold people to the Templars for food. And then continued to do so after she knew they were being murdered or disappeared. She didn't explain any of the stakes/problems/issues with any of her people and unilaterally made all of the choices. These are facts. what other acts am I supposed to be considering? That the templars cfould hav eeasil yjust charged in and killed everyone? After all let's not forget the Templars aer trained warriors the ycould hav eeasil yheld the town hostag eand killed everyon efor not complying. They never made this threat and Poulin never expressed any concern over this threat. If anything, such a threat supports them using home advantage to leave the town altogether. Why don't we invent a "demon made her do it" while we're at it, since we're playing a game of making up things to make her look less guilty? Lots of demons around to blame too.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Apr 23, 2020 3:36:19 GMT
That the templars cfould hav eeasil yjust charged in and killed everyone? After all let's not forget the Templars aer trained warriors the ycould hav eeasil yheld the town hostag eand killed everyon efor not complying. They never made this threat and Poulin never expressed any concern over this threat. If anything, such a threat supports them using home advantage to leave the town altogether. Really? I thought she explicitly said "it was either them, or all of us" or something like that at her trial. Hm, you know...
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Apr 23, 2020 11:37:11 GMT
That the templars cfould hav eeasil yjust charged in and killed everyone? After all let's not forget the Templars aer trained warriors the ycould hav eeasil yheld the town hostag eand killed everyon efor not complying. They never made this threat and Poulin never expressed any concern over this threat. If anything, such a threat supports them using home advantage to leave the town altogether. Why don't we invent a "demon made her do it" while we're at it, since we're playing a game of making up things to make her look less guilty? Lots of demons around to blame too. I know they didn't my point isn' that they did my point is they could have.They ma ywell hav ethreatened her hadshe not co-operated and she knew it that's why I think she took the actions she did.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on May 1, 2020 0:35:26 GMT
I just started this quest again, and I've been looking to see why Mistress Poulin didn't order the town evacuated, since that's the only credible alternative to doing what she wound up doing. (Or at least, it's the only one that's popped up here, as far as I can tell.)
Right off the bat, in Baron DesJardins's request that Josephine and Natalya look into this situation, he notes that the reason he can't do anything is that the bridges leading to town have been destroyed. He assumes that the Red Templars did it. He's almost certainly correct. It already doesn't look like getting the townsfolk out is going to be an easy task.
Josephine suggests that the Inquisition can still get in, using the frozen river. She also notes that it's going to take some particularly brave soldiers to try that, which suggests that it's not a route suited for a mass evacuation of civilians.
In Harding's briefing, she says that the townsfolk are "penned in by Fade Rifts and Red Templars," which suggests that the Red Templars are actively making efforts to keep the townsfolk where they are, and that even if they weren't the wilds are a bit dangerous for civilians even before we get into the difficulty of the route. Harding also notes that a few did get out before the river froze, presumably on boats, and the Inquisitor notes that it's odd for an entire river to freeze quickly enough to trap the rest; taking both those notes together, I'm now a bit more confident in my theory that the Venatori did it to make their comrades' jobs easier.
Taking all of that together, it really seems like leaving wasn't an option.
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Post by mikoto on May 7, 2020 0:21:55 GMT
Thanks for doing the background research riverdaleswhiteflash, I half remembered most of that whilst reading the thread. You also have to battle your way through a lot of groups of Red Templars to get to the keep. Its remarked that the villagers haven't seen a friendly face for a long time.
Ultimately yeah before Corypheus' attack on Haven the Templars weren't all corrupted. By that point the red lyrium was only just starting to be distributed through the Order's leaders and the Order itself wasn't the enemy of anyone but the mage rebels. I don't see any reason at that point why Poulin would have had any reason not to sell the quarry and stimulate local economy. Of course when they turned into Red Templars, allied with Corypheus and the Venatori by then it was too late for her and the villagers.
As for selling people to the Red Templars... well I don't really think she had much of a choice about that. The letters imply they were coming for the villagers to 'seed' with red lyrium and would have taken however many was on their list each time whether Poulin cooperated or not. In my opinion she did what she could to mitigate them, sending the weak, old and dying so that the others could survive on the traded food and supplies. The Red Templars even got wise to this and were starting to make her choose healthier people just before the Inquisition arrived.
Therefore is what she did right? No, of course not. Its abhorrent. But did she have any other options? Not really. I see it as making the most of an awful situation. As such my Inquisitors are lenient with her. I always have her sentenced to rebuild the village until she's forgiven by the survivors.
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Post by phoray on May 10, 2020 15:27:53 GMT
She still did not deal with her people with honesty. You guys are looking at her crime from her point of view, and it's true we get little POV from the townspeople.
but are you honestly saying that you would want your town leader to keep you completely in the dark about what was going on? She collected your neighbors, friends, and loved ones and made life or death decisions about them. The people did not sign up to be soldiers who voluntarily give some of their autonomy away in exchange for an ideal or money. They were just regular folk who didn't understand why uncle bob with the bad foot never came back. The towns folk were not chess pieces to be making efficient strategic decisions about.
MAYBE telling them everything would have resulted in their death as they tried to flee. but it was THEIR freedom and life to chance, NOT HERS.
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Post by Sonya on May 10, 2020 18:04:23 GMT
Though Poulin did what she could and thought it was right, I really agree with the previous post. Red Templars are indeed strong and dangerous enemies, only when you fight for your life, home, people you love, you can never know what strength and abilities may find inside. Even simple working class can very easy use their knowledge to fight, make traps, use simple guerilla warfare tactics. Maybe there are people with military experience, and usually there are people who can inspire others only by saying a few words like t was THEIR freedom and life to chance, NOT HERS Such kind of words really work and simple people are already not so simple (just it is not Poulin, lock her up). Agree, that the town should have known all the details, everything, and decide what to do. And while doing that Inq is already there to save the day.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on May 10, 2020 18:53:01 GMT
She still did not deal with her people with honesty. You guys are looking at her crime from her point of view, and it's true we get little POV from the townspeople. but are you honestly saying that you would want your town leader to keep you completely in the dark about what was going on? She collected your neighbors, friends, and loved ones and made life or death decisions about them. The people did not sign up to be soldiers who voluntarily give some of their autonomy away in exchange for an ideal or money. They were just regular folk who didn't understand why uncle bob with the bad foot never came back. The towns folk were not chess pieces to be making efficient strategic decisions about. MAYBE telling them everything would have resulted in their death as they tried to flee. but it was THEIR freedom and life to chance, NOT HERS. She says that if she had, they would have killed her too. And maybe it's selfish to take a gamble like that to save your own life, but it's at least understandable. And since that's not enough to justify what she did, understandable or not: we know that the Red Templars were willing to take the whole village in one swoop if she proved truculent, and that Poulin knew that. She says as much when you confront her with the Red Templar letter. I can't imagine the Red Templars wouldn't have just taken whole village if they found out Poulin had let the cat out of the bag, or that she wasn't taking the possibility into account when she decided to go behind everyone's backs. (Even if she was mostly thinking of herself, which I imagine she probably was.) Yeah, she wasn't honest with the people. But her dishonesty almost certainly saved lives. If she'd done what you'd suggested, the whole village might have been destroyed. Maybe I wouldn't have wanted Mistress Poulin to make that decision behind my back, but I would have preferred it to her getting everyone killed.
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