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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, SWTOR
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Post by SirSourpuss on Sept 13, 2020 0:56:37 GMT
That is a very draconian methodology for writing though, because it is predicated on the authorial intent being the sole important factor of characterization. I don't consider it the only way, when in a book or any other non interactive fiction medium. But in an interactive medium, the purpose of the character is to engage the player and, regardless of the character's traits, if the character fails, then it is a failed character. Unlike in, say, writing, where it is merely the words of one person put on paper, a video game character is developed on multiple levels. There is, of course, the writing, the design, the animation, the voice acting, even the file size. All these have a cost and a party character consumes considerably larger amounts of effort compared to, say, a throwaway Easter egg in the game. If the end result turns out to be a detractor from the overall experience, completely demolishing all that effort put into it, as well as resources, only to be criticized and rejected largely, a character that simply doesn't work. Would you still say it is a well written character? Personally I think it's important to consider the point of view of the author Well, they tried. Yet, id argue Aslan is a poorly written character because he is constrained to that singular view and has a too narrow and sanctimonious edge to them. He was always, to me, the worst part about the Narnia series due of that, a Gary Stu, if you will. I don't know if I'd call Aslan a Gary Stu. If I would, wouldn't have to call JC one as well? Isn't this divinity bestowed upon them for that exact reason? To be an infallible role model, basically, under which the coven will gather? I don't think it would work as well if Aslan was snorting lines and shagging nines. It serves a purpose, Aslan is widely, as far as I know, loved and while there are other ways to achieve a similar effect and not make a character as infallible, Aslan has a personality, has weaknesses, can be as stern as he can be nurturing and there are many layers to him. Most importantly, though, he works. I'm not sure if that is a justifiable argument, ultimately, regarding the quality of a characters writing since that criteria doesn't allow for nuance, it seems. But it does. Engagement and retention of that engagement allow for various degrees of success or failure of a character. And no character needs to be written the same way to work. The nuance is still there, but player engagement is a motive for the writer to try harder and make the character better. In the end of the day, the question "do I want to interact with this" in an interactive medium should always end with a yes. If not, the feature has failed in its most basic task of interacting with the player. It's like its not even in the game. And if I was a writer, I would want everyone to interact with the character(s) I wrote and I wouldn't want them to shut up about them.
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linksocarina
N5
Always teacher, sometimes writer
Teaching Mode Activated
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
PSN: LinksOcarina
Posts: 3,186 Likes: 4,072
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Teaching Mode Activated
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August 2016
linksocarina
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
LinksOcarina
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Post by linksocarina on Sept 13, 2020 0:58:12 GMT
This is the part of it I really don't get, i.e. why get upset about minor revisions or ret-cons to the lore that are clearly motivated by/relate directly to gameplay mechanics that they're attempting to improve from game to game... I never could understand how people could get so worked up over e.g. Mass Effect changing the precise details about how ammo works (seriously? ammo?) or Dragon Age changing the specifics about how certain kinds of magic work, in order to improve combat or whatever. Would people really prefer that they don't attempt to improve or vary any aspects of the game from one title to the next, so that they can stay completely 100% faithful to the lore set out in the original game years and years ago, down to every last detail? This seems completely ass-backwards to me. I guess different strokes for different folks and all, but still... just... weird.
Hm..
Re-writing history is a no-no, in my book. Technically speaking, if peasant X in the Korcary Wilds was written that he killed his pet pig in DA:O but in DA2 at the last moment he spared the pig, is re-writing history. However, in the Grand Scheme of things, who cares" ? Right? A minor revision, as you say.
Bio made the mages in DA:I the new Castrati. A disappointment, when I played the game. I expected mages to continue to be mages. The Castrati is an "improvement" that is not, imo.
BTW, I'm not against game improvement but not at the expense of continuity.
Heres the thing, in what context is the lore presented in the Dragon Age series? If you notice, the codex and bits and pieces we do get, outside of in-game events, are all second-hand sources from scholars, bards, historians, chantry writers, and the like. It is not eye-witness accounts, or in most cases, first-hand knowledge. One of the things I really like about this, and the bit that makes the historian in me satisfied, is the interpretations of stories, historical events, myths and legends, and narrative in the codex. They are from sources, letters, books, people with specific points of view that change and warp and shape the narrative, and most importantly, not concrete, because history is actually like that. Historical training allows you to discern the truth from this, because almost all historical sources, save for the real academic ones that are trying to prove a thesis, are biased based on the framing of their sources. For example, typically the Fall of Rome is attributed to the year 476 C.E as if it is a factual date that is true, but of the Romans 'fall' has always been 476 C.E because a British historian in the 1800's said so due to the rise of Christianity and letting barbarians in. The reason he became the expert is because he had the most popular, if controversial, theory at the time. Yet, historians have put out various reasons and dates for the fall of rome, which you can easily argue other theories and logic through multiple context. Economic strife, failing to uphold their war economy with an eroding and corrupt ruling class, rise of barbarians causing chaos along with inflation, and waning influence due to their split 100 years earlier, even the Church itself would effectively become autonomous, and split in two, as it began to decline...in the West at least. The thing is, one interpretation is not always subjected to being 'gospel' which is the massive problem I have with game lore. People take it too seriously, when the interpretation of events is not only more realistic, but actually does give wiggle room to expand, prove or disprove what is said. When the lore of Dragon is 90% framed to be from a scholar's perspective, it is, by definition, designed to be challenged with new information as time goes on. Simply put, the lore as it is presented, is not objective fact, but interpretation of fact. As it should be.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, SWTOR
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Post by SirSourpuss on Sept 13, 2020 1:10:44 GMT
If you notice, the codex and bits and pieces we do get, outside of in-game events, are all second-hand sources from scholars, bards, historians, chantry writers, and the like. It is not eye-witness accounts, or in most cases, first-hand knowledge. One of the things I really like about this, and the bit that makes the historian in me satisfied, is the interpretations of stories, historical events, myths and legends, and narrative in the codex. They are from sources, letters, books, people with specific points of view that change and warp and shape the narrative, and most importantly, not concrete, because history is actually like that. I don't know. Most fantasy settings, even the D&D ones like Dragonlance and Forgotten Realms, do not rewrite the lore. What changes is the core rule set from one edition to the other and while the settings progress with new events, either in the past or the future, they don't generally rewrite the lore. And I've read a good 20 something Dragonlance novels, so I should know about that setting at least. Don't get me started on Dark Sun. But Bioware seems to revise the lore every time. It seems unprofessional to me, sloppy and convenient. As I've said before, it makes it all too transparent and it breaks immersion. Imagine if we find out we "missinterpreted" the dark spawn. That they were god guys, after all and wanted to usher a new era, by cleansing the land from all the races of Thedas, because they were ultimately fucking up the world. Now, the Grey Wardens are the bad guys. You have the freedom to do it, because we simply didn't know better. Nothing is too far fetched, under the guise of "we didn't know better". The thing is, one interpretation is not always subjected to being 'gospel' which is the massive problem I have with game lore. People take it too seriously, when the interpretation of events is not only more realistic, but actually does give wiggle room to expand, prove or disprove what is said. When the lore of Dragon is 90% framed to be from a scholar's perspective, it is, by definition, designed to be challenged with new information as time goes on. While that could stand, in setting, the player would like to know. It is a fictional setting that we exist outside of it. We could know, even as the characters do not.
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linksocarina
N5
Always teacher, sometimes writer
Teaching Mode Activated
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
PSN: LinksOcarina
Posts: 3,186 Likes: 4,072
inherit
Always teacher, sometimes writer
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Teaching Mode Activated
3,186
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linksocarina
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
LinksOcarina
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Post by linksocarina on Sept 13, 2020 1:29:30 GMT
That is a very draconian methodology for writing though, because it is predicated on the authorial intent being the sole important factor of characterization. I don't consider it the only way, when in a book or any other non interactive fiction medium. But in an interactive medium, the purpose of the character is to engage the player and, regardless of the character's traits, if the character fails, then it is a failed character. Unlike in, say, writing, where it is merely the words of one person put on paper, a video game character is developed on multiple levels. There is, of course, the writing, the design, the animation, the voice acting, even the file size. All these have a cost and a party character consumes considerably larger amounts of effort compared to, say, a throwaway Easter egg in the game. If the end result turns out to be a detractor from the overall experience, completely demolishing all that effort put into it, as well as resources, only to be criticized and rejected largely, a character that simply doesn't work. Would you still say it is a well written character? Personally I think it's important to consider the point of view of the author Well, they tried. Yet, id argue Aslan is a poorly written character because he is constrained to that singular view and has a too narrow and sanctimonious edge to them. He was always, to me, the worst part about the Narnia series due of that, a Gary Stu, if you will. I don't know if I'd call Aslan a Gary Stu. If I would, wouldn't have to call JC one as well? Isn't this divinity bestowed upon them for that exact reason? To be an infallible role model, basically, under which the coven will gather? I don't think it would work as well if Aslan was snorting lines and shagging nines. It serves a purpose, Aslan is widely, as far as I know, loved and while there are other ways to achieve a similar effect and not make a character as infallible, Aslan has a personality, has weaknesses, can be as stern as he can be nurturing and there are many layers to him. Most importantly, though, he works. I'm not sure if that is a justifiable argument, ultimately, regarding the quality of a characters writing since that criteria doesn't allow for nuance, it seems. But it does. Engagement and retention of that engagement allow for various degrees of success or failure of a character. And no character needs to be written the same way to work. The nuance is still there, but player engagement is a motive for the writer to try harder and make the character better. In the end of the day, the question "do I want to interact with this" in an interactive medium should always end with a yes. If not, the feature has failed in its most basic task of interacting with the player. It's like its not even in the game. And if I was a writer, I would want everyone to interact with the character(s) I wrote and I wouldn't want them to shut up about them. This is going into hagiography, but most interpretations of Jesus over the years were as an infallible individual mostly because his purpose in biblical tradition is to be infallible to serve as a parable for teaching purposes. He commits no sins, but instead sacrificed himself to redeem the sins of man, thus shining a light onto the failings of mankind and how they can be redeemed through forgiveness. That kind of messiah talk that Jewish mystery cult leaders wanted to promote against the zealot movement at the time in the 50's C.E. As to the rest, the thing that again is a bit contradictory here is the X factor of judgement regardless of authorial intent, since it is subjective because its an interactive medium. Take Sera. She is a difficult character to like because she is basically a petulant teenager who thinks the world is simply black and white. Yet, the question of interacting with Sera is on multiple levels, taking the criteria you mentioned before with the Voice acting, kit and function mechanically, script, and how she fits into the game and such. To that end, you have a rogue character with tempest powers, kitted for archery. A unique perspective for role-playing with nobles, elves, and common folk being the primary themes, You have a character who is mostly comic relief, with solid voice work that makes her a annoying without being grating, id argue, and a design that is recognizable. And after you kind of strip away the annoying baggage of her chaotic side, she is much more personable and introspective than she lets on, but just simply hides it. Plus, we should also factor in that players can interact with Sera in multiple ways, since everyone plays these games differently. Kind of like the bartle test, some would focus on her build since she can basically DPS through most of the game with Tempest active, others as a quirky romance, others still as a person to kick out of their inquisition (which is also a solution to the question you ask). Would the fact that Sera, by metrics of her design as a character across all fronts, not warrant validity because of the uniqueness of what constitutes player engagement? In other words, isn't she a success because she satisfies that desire to interact with the medium regardless of how she is received as a character?
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linksocarina
N5
Always teacher, sometimes writer
Teaching Mode Activated
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
PSN: LinksOcarina
Posts: 3,186 Likes: 4,072
inherit
Always teacher, sometimes writer
370
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4,072
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Teaching Mode Activated
3,186
August 2016
linksocarina
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
LinksOcarina
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Post by linksocarina on Sept 13, 2020 1:36:45 GMT
If you notice, the codex and bits and pieces we do get, outside of in-game events, are all second-hand sources from scholars, bards, historians, chantry writers, and the like. It is not eye-witness accounts, or in most cases, first-hand knowledge. One of the things I really like about this, and the bit that makes the historian in me satisfied, is the interpretations of stories, historical events, myths and legends, and narrative in the codex. They are from sources, letters, books, people with specific points of view that change and warp and shape the narrative, and most importantly, not concrete, because history is actually like that. I don't know. Most fantasy settings, even the D&D ones like Dragonlance and Forgotten Realms, do not rewrite the lore. What changes is the core rule set from one edition to the other and while the settings progress with new events, either in the past or the future, they don't generally rewrite the lore. And I've read a good 20 something Dragonlance novels, so I should know about that setting at least. Don't get me started on Dark Sun. But Bioware seems to revise the lore every time. It seems unprofessional to me, sloppy and convenient. As I've said before, it makes it all too transparent and it breaks immersion. Imagine if we find out we "missinterpreted" the dark spawn. That they were god guys, after all and wanted to usher a new era, by cleansing the land from all the races of Thedas, because they were ultimately fucking up the world. Now, the Grey Wardens are the bad guys. You have the freedom to do it, because we simply didn't know better. Nothing is too far fetched, under the guise of "we didn't know better". The thing is, one interpretation is not always subjected to being 'gospel' which is the massive problem I have with game lore. People take it too seriously, when the interpretation of events is not only more realistic, but actually does give wiggle room to expand, prove or disprove what is said. When the lore of Dragon is 90% framed to be from a scholar's perspective, it is, by definition, designed to be challenged with new information as time goes on. While that could stand, in setting, the player would like to know. It is a fictional setting that we exist outside of it. We could know, even as the characters do not. Sure, but a lot of those settings not well written or curated because of that singular lore timeline, and struggle to find relevance, especially the likes of Dragonlance. Like, the history of characters such as Raistlin is fascinating to me, but also convoluted as hell simply because he is a popular character. DnD is interesting because they have re-written lore several times, to mean different ages and epochs and stuff like that. Hell, the god of Bhaal didn't even exist until recently again in Forgotten Realms, despite the fact that a game series made Bhaal a central deity in the cosmos due to their position as a major plot point. 5E and 4E have changed a lot of lore previously from 3rd and 2nd in Forgotten Realms, especially 4E which folks hated, yet the lore justifications were actually pretty valid and in some cases, good changes to make to advance the setting. Game worlds should rarely be static, IMO. Esepcially between editions. It is one of the issues I have with Star Wars and other settings; its static because it has to be for brand recognition and iconography. Yet the use of the same tech between the Old Republic and Skywalker Saga, despite being thousands of years apart, is kind of silly. Also, this kind of depends on whether or not you take the settings interpretation of the world as valid or not. If the player has knowledge that the world does not have, and the world discusses or hypothesizes on those points without confirmation, is that a fault of the world, or the player using their knowledge and not character knowledge. That is kind of an old tabletop question in a lot of ways, and I always am on the side of the players could know, but it's not relevant since their characters don't.
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Post by colfoley on Sept 13, 2020 1:47:57 GMT
Is DnD lore written in universe or out of it?
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 13, 2020 3:59:19 GMT
No shit, Sherlock; that's sort of what an opinion is, and your own contrary view no less so. Actually it isn't, because the quality and nature of the characters was precisely the topic of the present conversation. As is your own view on the importance of sticking to the lore. Not sure how you've not realized that this "that's just your opinion" shtick cuts both ways, and is irrelevant/redundant to begin with since the fact that we are expressing and discussing our own views and opinions on these topics is an obvious premise that goes without saying here. Could have saved yourself the trouble of writing this non-response response if that was all you had to say. Also, "the franchise is dead"- okie (I expect that's going to come as unfortunate news to all the people currently working on and/or looking forward to the next entry in the franchise) The franchise is dead, people on games reddit told me. It's not dead. It's just shit now. So worse than dead really.
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Oct 16, 2017 16:19:07 GMT
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sirpetrakus
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, SWTOR
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Post by SirSourpuss on Sept 13, 2020 8:05:25 GMT
In other words, isn't she a success because she satisfies that desire to interact with the medium regardless of how she is received as a character? I've heard a lot of complaints toward Sera, disregarding my own and not being grating wasn't one of them. People didn't stand her. There are meme compilations with her content ... she's an unfortunate, very unfortunate, example of a lot of work being put in, for something massively rejected. While the idea behind is not bad, the execution, in this instance, is. She largely satisfies no desire to interact and most certainly doesn't interest the players to see how she interacts with the world of DA. In spite of intentions, in spite of meticulous design, in spite of hard work and effort, the character, in such a case, fails. So no, I would not call Sera a success.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, SWTOR
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Post by SirSourpuss on Sept 13, 2020 8:22:06 GMT
DnD is interesting because they have re-written lore several times, to mean different ages and epochs and stuff like that. Hell, the god of Bhaal didn't even exist until recently again in Forgotten Realms, despite the fact that a game series made Bhaal a central deity in the cosmos due to their position as a major plot point. 5E and 4E have changed a lot of lore previously from 3rd and 2nd in Forgotten Realms, especially 4E which folks hated, yet the lore justifications were actually pretty valid and in some cases, good changes to make to advance the setting. I'd say the changes in the core rule set mostly killed the franchises. I remember when Dragonlance made the transition from the 3rd age to the 4th age, where it turned into a card game, that I never figured out how to play, basically killed the setting. As for the overall lore changes, well, the passion with which the players hated these, I think, shows how out of touch WotC are with their player base. I had already fallen out of D&D by the time of the fourth edition, but up to and including 3.5 the lore was very much unchanged, except that the setting progressed through times. Now, I've heard what happened to FR with the gods and all and what that meant for the setting. Not a fan, myself. Game worlds should rarely be static, IMO Well, there are better ways to progress than taking a sledgehammer through the setting. Not all changes are good, nor should you change for the sake of change. Also, this kind of depends on whether or not you take the settings interpretation of the world as valid or not. If the player has knowledge that the world does not have, and the world discusses or hypothesizes on those points without confirmation, is that a fault of the world, or the player using their knowledge and not character knowledge I can make the distinction between player knowledge and character knowledge, if I know that my character, at this point in time, would not have the knowledge that I have. Like " the real definition of magic would not be found until 573 of the 8th age, when st. Maurice von Kauffman would first make a cohesive and unified theory. Then we're in the, what is it, 4th age of Thedas? So I can tell that my character would not be privy to that. But I would know. but it's not relevant since their characters don't. But I want to know. I want to know because I need to know there is a plan. Otherwise, we're just winging it, title to title.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Sartoz on Sept 13, 2020 15:28:18 GMT
LOl,
Blackwall was a companion for a short while. The dialogue wasn't interesting so I dumped him.
I thought it was well done sarcasm and was about to like the comment. But I wasn't sure...
LOL!!!
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Sartoz on Sept 13, 2020 15:34:49 GMT
wellll its been a long time since I have actually read the relevant lore (and am too lazy now ) but from what I remember they are either A. a local Ferelden dog which the Imperium magicked and then they (the dogs) betrayed them. Or B. A local Ferelden Dog which they crossbred with one from the Imperium and then they betrayed them. Also keep in mind that this lore is a Ferelden ledgend so may not be one hundred percent accurate. Appropro though I agree with your desire and then some. I've said on more then one occasion I want them to readd pets to the game...maybe not as full born companions...but I would love summonable pets ala DA 2. But also add more then just dogs/ mabari but other things like hawks, Eagles...cats. Yeah I'd be perfectly fine with having a dog as a pet/summons rather than a full-blown companion. I'm not picky: just give us a dog, goddamit! On a slightly different note, it would also be really cool if they brought back shapeshifting as a mage ability/specialization.
What's the point of having a dog? I'm currently playing DA:O and I don't bother with the dog.... he stays in the camp. Same with Sten, a useless twit that gets killed often in the early game.
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https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse1.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP.hVm-5wNStlyTEXjhwDoa_wHaEK%26pid%3DApi&f=1&ipt=8f745a5f30b08f8231ddb64664df7375d23cc10878aa50d66fec54e9d570c7e2&ipo=images
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Sartoz on Sept 13, 2020 15:38:01 GMT
I'd like to see a recent poll where at least half of the few million people who bought DAI participated and stated that the companions were so bland that they can't remember anything about them and how they have zero interest in DA4. Doesn't exist? Huh. I seriously doubt that the out of the ~50% of people who bought the game and didn't even finish it and haven't touched it since, remember what the games was about or who was in it. When your customer base is ~2.5 million people and the game was six years ago, I doubt you can find half a million people that fit the criteria to take the test. I'm the last person to voice confidence in current Bioware and DA4 but DAI was successful and popular. As long as there's romances for everyone, DA4 has an audience. I don't think the romances, especially the DA:I ones, are a hook for the audience. I have said it many times before, I have no interest in the next batch of Joss Whedon's rejects that Bioware seems to think make for good companions and Joss Whedon hasn't been good since Firefly ended.
Hey... I like Buffy of all things.
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Polka Dot
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 679 Likes: 1,207
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Polka Dot on Sept 13, 2020 16:11:53 GMT
In other words, isn't she a success because she satisfies that desire to interact with the medium regardless of how she is received as a character? I've heard a lot of complaints toward Sera, disregarding my own and not being grating wasn't one of them. People didn't stand her. There are meme compilations with her content ... she's an unfortunate, very unfortunate, example of a lot of work being put in, for something massively rejected. While the idea behind is not bad, the execution, in this instance, is. She largely satisfies no desire to interact and most certainly doesn't interest the players to see how she interacts with the world of DA. In spite of intentions, in spite of meticulous design, in spite of hard work and effort, the character, in such a case, fails. So no, I would not call Sera a success. No, actually, she was a massive success. Sera may be the most complex character BioWare has ever written, and inspires extreme views on both sides. The mark of a failed character is a neutral or "meh" reaction. BioWare was very aware that a lot of people wouldn't get her or like her - thus they made it easy to release her. They didn't intend or expect that everyone would like her or want her around.
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https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse1.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP.hVm-5wNStlyTEXjhwDoa_wHaEK%26pid%3DApi&f=1&ipt=8f745a5f30b08f8231ddb64664df7375d23cc10878aa50d66fec54e9d570c7e2&ipo=images
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Sartoz on Sept 13, 2020 16:14:36 GMT
The franchise is dead, people on games reddit told me. It's not dead. It's just shit now. So worse than dead really.
Dead, shitty or not, if Bio is truly trying to revive the franchise, the studio needs to looks at the competition. Bio will have to contend with Cyberpunk 2077 a game whose VA work is 15-20% more than Witcher 3, including the DLC. Add BG3 that's coming up and DA4 needs to be a solid game with engaging characters and story in context with Thedas culture.
These above two games will set the bar that Bio needs to equal or beat when DA4 launches in 2022. Pretty eye candy won't do it nor chars with gender issues, imo. Mind, a great, successful marketing campaign can sell shit... just look at Anthem.
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Post by smilesja on Sept 13, 2020 16:15:44 GMT
I've heard a lot of complaints toward Sera, disregarding my own and not being grating wasn't one of them. People didn't stand her. There are meme compilations with her content ... she's an unfortunate, very unfortunate, example of a lot of work being put in, for something massively rejected. While the idea behind is not bad, the execution, in this instance, is. She largely satisfies no desire to interact and most certainly doesn't interest the players to see how she interacts with the world of DA. In spite of intentions, in spite of meticulous design, in spite of hard work and effort, the character, in such a case, fails. So no, I would not call Sera a success. No, actually, she was a massive success. Sera may be the most complex character BioWare has ever written, and inspires extreme views on both sides. The mark of a failed character is a neutral or "meh" reaction. BioWare was very aware that a lot of people wouldn't get her or like her - thus they made it easy to release her. They didn't intend or expect that everyone would like her or want her around. To be honest they kinda did expect people not to like her judging on how many opportunities you have to kick her out after you recruit her. That being said, Sera is more of a divisive character than a widely hated one, she has a LOT of fans.
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Post by smilesja on Sept 13, 2020 16:23:53 GMT
I've heard a lot of complaints toward Sera, disregarding my own and not being grating wasn't one of them. People didn't stand her. There are meme compilations with her content ... she's an unfortunate, very unfortunate, example of a lot of work being put in, for something massively rejected. While the idea behind is not bad, the execution, in this instance, is. She largely satisfies no desire to interact and most certainly doesn't interest the players to see how she interacts with the world of DA. In spite of intentions, in spite of meticulous design, in spite of hard work and effort, the character, in such a case, fails. So no, I would not call Sera a success. No, actually, she was a massive success. Sera may be the most complex character BioWare has ever written, and inspires extreme views on both sides. The mark of a failed character is a neutral or "meh" reaction. BioWare was very aware that a lot of people wouldn't get her or like her - thus they made it easy to release her. They didn't intend or expect that everyone would like her or want her around. I'd argue Anders is more complex than Sera given how much of an impact he has on Thedas. People still argue his actions today.
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SirSourpuss
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sirpetrakus
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, SWTOR
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Post by SirSourpuss on Sept 13, 2020 16:26:21 GMT
No, actually, she was a massive success. Yes, she's huge in Japan. I am sure.
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Hanako Ikezawa
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 13, 2020 16:28:03 GMT
No, actually, she was a massive success. Yes, she's huge in Japan. I am sure. ...what?
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9459
0
Nov 24, 2021 20:18:46 GMT
5,628
SirSourpuss
7,694
Oct 16, 2017 16:19:07 GMT
October 2017
sirpetrakus
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, SWTOR
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Post by SirSourpuss on Sept 13, 2020 16:39:37 GMT
Yes, she's huge in Japan. I am sure. ...what?
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3,495
Sartoz
6,870
August 2016
sartoz
https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse1.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP.hVm-5wNStlyTEXjhwDoa_wHaEK%26pid%3DApi&f=1&ipt=8f745a5f30b08f8231ddb64664df7375d23cc10878aa50d66fec54e9d570c7e2&ipo=images
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Sartoz on Sept 13, 2020 16:49:36 GMT
I've heard a lot of complaints toward Sera, disregarding my own and not being grating wasn't one of them. People didn't stand her. There are meme compilations with her content ... she's an unfortunate, very unfortunate, example of a lot of work being put in, for something massively rejected. While the idea behind is not bad, the execution, in this instance, is. She largely satisfies no desire to interact and most certainly doesn't interest the players to see how she interacts with the world of DA. In spite of intentions, in spite of meticulous design, in spite of hard work and effort, the character, in such a case, fails. So no, I would not call Sera a success. No, actually, she was a massive success. Sera may be the most complex character BioWare has ever written, and inspires extreme views on both sides. The mark of a failed character is a neutral or "meh" reaction. BioWare was very aware that a lot of people wouldn't get her or like her - thus they made it easy to release her. They didn't intend or expect that everyone would like her or want her around.
Oh?
Are you saying that all the time, resources and money spent on Sara's character + dialogue and VA is a success because she is polarizing?
Sara took long hours and hard work from her creator. I say the writer is disappointed that "most" ditched her. That, imo, is not a success. Writers want their creation to be read or heard and/or talked about.
As to Sara being complex, don't confuse complex with street smarts. She had an intelligence network via fellow elves. That was very smart on her part. But, Sara a complex character? Nah.. Sara an annoying character? Oh yes!
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August 2016
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Post by smilesja on Sept 13, 2020 16:50:19 GMT
Where is the evidence that most people ditched her?
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Polka Dot
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 679 Likes: 1,207
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Feb 14, 2019 20:07:41 GMT
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polkadot
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Polka Dot on Sept 13, 2020 17:04:16 GMT
No, actually, she was a massive success. Sera may be the most complex character BioWare has ever written, and inspires extreme views on both sides. The mark of a failed character is a neutral or "meh" reaction. BioWare was very aware that a lot of people wouldn't get her or like her - thus they made it easy to release her. They didn't intend or expect that everyone would like her or want her around. I'd argue Anders is more complex than Sera given how much of an impact he has on Thedas. People still argue his actions today. Well... being impactful isn't the same thing as having a complex character/personality. I would also point out that a big part of Anders' complexity is his becoming an abomination and not all Anders.
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Post by smilesja on Sept 13, 2020 17:16:55 GMT
I'd argue Anders is more complex than Sera given how much of an impact he has on Thedas. People still argue his actions today. Well... being impactful isn't the same thing as having a complex character/personality. I would also point out that a big part of Anders' complexity is his becoming an abomination and not all Anders. Well that's the thing, is this Anders we're talking about? Or Justice/Vengeance. Is Anders acting on his own accord? Or is Justice goading influencing him?
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
11466
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Deleted
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January 1970
Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2020 19:20:47 GMT
What's the point of having a dog? I'm currently playing DA:O and I don't bother with the dog.... he stays in the camp. Same with Sten, a useless twit that gets killed often in the early game. I'm worried that we'll get screwed out of having a dog/mabari companion yet again. Dog's cut-scenes in camp in Origins were some of the best companion interactions in the whole gameNot to mention the hilarity of allowing him to pee on stuff as an actual game mechanic.
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colfoley
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Aug 17, 2016 10:19:37 GMT
August 2016
colfoley
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Post by colfoley on Sept 13, 2020 19:26:56 GMT
It's not dead. It's just shit now. So worse than dead really.
Dead, shitty or not, if Bio is truly trying to revive the franchise, the studio needs to looks at the competition. Bio will have to contend with Cyberpunk 2077 a game whose VA work is 15-20% more than Witcher 3, including the DLC. Add BG3 that's coming up and DA4 needs to be a solid game with engaging characters and story in context with Thedas culture.
These above two games will set the bar that Bio needs to equal or beat when DA4 launches in 2022. Pretty eye candy won't do it nor chars with gender issues, imo. Mind, a great, successful marketing campaign can sell shit... just look at Anthem.
neither BG 3 or Cyberpunk will be direct competition for 4. -both coming out now. - releasing on current systems. - different genres. - arguably different gp genres. Now ironically DA 4 is the only game we really know that will release in 22-23 window. It might suck, it might not suck...but we have no idea what its competition will look like. We may get a new AC game then (god will that be an interesting year if we get both, especially if they are both holiday releases, it'll be like 'sorry Unisoft' )
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