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Post by Sartoz on Sept 3, 2020 12:45:03 GMT
It was inevitable. EA is facing a class action lawsuit in the Northern District of California. The lawsuit is claiming that the publisher’s Ultimate Team packs used in the FIFA and Madden games constitute gambling in breach of the state’s gambling laws. Of note, according to the article, EA made over 1.4 billion dollars in micro transactions. This suit compares the practice to the advertising of big tobacco, which relies on creating addictive behavior to generate profit.
EA, I hope, will drop this nonsense from DA4.
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Post by Andraste_Reborn on Sept 3, 2020 12:49:39 GMT
I mean, has DA ever had loot boxes? (That's a genuine question - I never touched the DAI multiplayer so I don't know.)
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Post by pessimistpanda on Sept 3, 2020 14:19:34 GMT
Um, if their whole argument is "it's gambling because the contents are random", I don't see them getting anywhere with it, especially not in the United States, which does not exactly have a strong history of supporting action against corporations. There'd be a much more solid case to make against NBA 2k20, which blatantly uses the mechanics and visual cues of real-life gambling methods utilised in casinos, like Pachinko, slot machines and prize wheels.
You could potentially argue that games with lootboxes shouldn't be rated for children: Games with "gambling elements" are automatically rated as Mature by PEGI and the Australian Classification Board. This legislation, however, only refers to having casinos as locations in a game, and playable gambling minigames, and not to "in-game purchases" that require real money. Case in point: the 'Game Corner' that was a staple feature of early Pokemon games had to be removed from international version of Pokemon Diamond and Pokemon Pearl, and hasn't featured as a gameplay mechanic in the series since. You could argue that such legislation should be extended to lootboxes and similar, and I reckon that's actually a pretty good argument.
I think making lootboxes entirely illegal would be a massive stretch, though. Especially if the argument is that all it takes for something to be "gambling" is that the purchased contents are random. By that logic, the entire business model of Magic: The Gathering (and every other digital and physical trading card game in the world) and blind box collectables goes completely out the window as well.
Also, in this day and age, how do you guarantee that the contents won't be random? In Fortnite and similar games where the contents of lootcrates are purely cosmetic, they periodically release new skins, and I imagine designing and coding that shit means pretty much constant work. I seriously doubt that the developers of DAI's multiplayer mode lovingly handcrafted and coded every piece of gear. I would've assumed the appearance and stats of any multiplayer equipment was randomly generated in the first place, just like regular loot drops are in most games these days.
Also, you can't just tack on a sentence about DA4 at the end to cover up the fact that this is completely irrelevant to the series. We don't know if DA4 will even have any kind of multiplayer, let alone lootboxes. As much fun as it is to speculate about what bizarre thing we'll be allowed to fuck, the recent Behind-The-Scenes video revealed sweet fuck-all, besides that DA4 is being actively worked on.
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Post by azarhal on Sept 3, 2020 15:03:31 GMT
I mean, has DA ever had loot boxes? (That's a genuine question - I never touched the DAI multiplayer so I don't know.) DAIMP has "loot boxes" called chest. They drop random items/potions. You get them as rewards for matches/events, it's not limited to the store with in-game/real $. It's also not how you unlock the playable characters, you craft armor to unlock them. The material to craft stuff comes from salvaging all the useless things you get from the loot chests.
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Post by colfoley on Sept 3, 2020 19:37:41 GMT
Yey this frakin nonsense again. People crying out to the courts/ government because they don't have self control.
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Post by smilesja on Sept 3, 2020 19:49:47 GMT
It's funny how we gamers were against government interfering with games over a decade ago, now it seems we're asking the government who doesn't know a thing about video games to regulate aspects of it just because it's a company they don't like. Oh how times have changed.
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Post by gum on Sept 3, 2020 20:39:23 GMT
It's funny how we gamers were against government interfering with games over a decade ago, now it seems we're asking the government who doesn't know a thing about video games to regulate aspects of it just because it's a company they don't like. Oh how times have changed. What is this referring to over a decade ago? Censorship in games?? I think censorship in games and predatory business practices are two completely different things with both screwing over the consumer (us) lol I don't know that they'll make much ground in a case against lootboxes legally, but I also don't know why people feel compelled to defend them when they suck ass.
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Post by smilesja on Sept 3, 2020 20:44:39 GMT
It's funny how we gamers were against government interfering with games over a decade ago, now it seems we're asking the government who doesn't know a thing about video games to regulate aspects of it just because it's a company they don't like. Oh how times have changed. What is this referring to over a decade ago? Censorship in games?? I think censorship in games and predatory business practices are two completely different things with both screwing over the consumer (us) lol I don't know that they'll make much ground in a case against lootboxes legally, but I also don't know why people feel compelled to defend them when they suck ass. Depends on how lootboxes are handled, I don't mind them personally but if it's not pay to win then let them implement it. The last thing I want is the government looking at the games and deciding do something that could be even worse because they're that out of touch.
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Post by gum on Sept 3, 2020 20:52:55 GMT
What is this referring to over a decade ago? Censorship in games?? I think censorship in games and predatory business practices are two completely different things with both screwing over the consumer (us) lol I don't know that they'll make much ground in a case against lootboxes legally, but I also don't know why people feel compelled to defend them when they suck ass. Depends on how lootboxes are handled, I don't mind them personally but if it's not pay to win then let them implement it. The last thing I want is the government looking at the games and deciding do something that could be even worse because they're that out of touch. It's predatory because there ARE people with gambling problems, it's not as simple as "they have no self control." And in a lot of cases there are kids playing these games, which is probably even more of a concern than just regular gambling if they get access to whaling (and there are many instances of this in games in general). It's not as simple as saying "I don't personally mind this," there are a lot of actual grievances with it. Again, whether they can make this case against EA specifically is up to the details of the case, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't make a case looking into it?
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Post by smilesja on Sept 3, 2020 21:04:26 GMT
Depends on how lootboxes are handled, I don't mind them personally but if it's not pay to win then let them implement it. The last thing I want is the government looking at the games and deciding do something that could be even worse because they're that out of touch. It's predatory because there ARE people with gambling problems, it's not as simple as "they have no self control." And in a lot of cases there are kids playing these games, which is probably even more of a concern than just regular gambling if they get access to whaling (and there are many instances of this in games in general). It's not as simple as saying "I don't personally mind this," there are a lot of actual grievances with it. Again, whether they can make this case against EA specifically is up to the details of the case, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't make a case looking into it? But the question is, if it's not pay to win what's the big deal? If they're doing weapon skins or skins in general I don't think it counts as gambling. Like I said this is something I don't think gamers should fight since it involves the government who knows nothing about video games.
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Post by phoray on Sept 3, 2020 21:09:05 GMT
Yey this frakin nonsense again. People crying out to the courts/ government because they don't have self control. That lacks some sympathy. People don't know they're sensitive to addiction until they're actually addicted. It's all well and good to say that 99% of people aren't prone when 1% of all the people who will play is still a LOT of people.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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PSN: Natigator1213
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Post by Heart on Sept 3, 2020 21:16:43 GMT
I don't think you need to know how video games 'work' in order to recognize that loot boxes are predatory. There's countless studies that show loot boxes are psychologically akin to gambling, and there's no way companies aren't aware of that. Whether it's just cosmetic items doesn't really matter, it's the process of continuing to pay real money (in a game you've also probably already spent $60) for content that is not guaranteed.
Ultimately I don't think being sued over loot boxes specifically is going to stop the overall issue of microtransactions in games, which imo is the real problem. But I think removing them is at the very least a step in the right direction.
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Post by slimgrin727 on Sept 3, 2020 21:20:21 GMT
Well, I have yet to see a game made better by adopting loot boxes, whether it uses real world money or not.
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Post by gum on Sept 3, 2020 21:32:25 GMT
But the question is, if it's not pay to win what's the big deal? If they're doing weapon skins or skins in general I don't think it counts as gambling. Like I said this is something I don't think gamers should fight since it involves the government who knows nothing about video games. Brother, people like me are not the government who don't understand the game industry or gambling addiction, we're people concerned about this stuff and who play games. Games as an industry are not so new that a majority of people concerned about them don't know anything about them anymore. And the cosmetic detail is besides the point, people who struggle with an addiction to gambling or kids who got access to their mom's credit card aren't just going to not go hog wild because they're cosmetic. The problem is that lootboxes themselves engender addictive behavior.
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Post by smilesja on Sept 3, 2020 21:43:38 GMT
But the question is, if it's not pay to win what's the big deal? If they're doing weapon skins or skins in general I don't think it counts as gambling. Like I said this is something I don't think gamers should fight since it involves the government who knows nothing about video games. Brother, people like me are not the government who don't understand the game industry or gambling addiction, we're people concerned about this stuff and who play games. Games as an industry are not so new that a majority of people concerned about them don't know anything about them anymore. And the cosmetic detail is besides the point, people who struggle with an addiction to gambling or kids who got access to their mom's credit card aren't just going to not go hog wild because they're cosmetic. The problem is that lootboxes themselves engender addictive behavior. Or the problem is that parents need to restrict children's access to their credit cards. I'm not sure if people are truly concerned or just want to feel self righteous because it's EA other wise you might as well declare trading card packs as gambling since what you get is random.
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Twitter Guru
ღ N-Special
More coffee...? More coffee.
Staff Mini-Profile Theme: Hrungr
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Hrungr on Sept 3, 2020 21:45:45 GMT
I don't think you need to know how video games 'work' in order to recognize that loot boxes are predatory. There's countless studies that show loot boxes are psychologically akin to gambling, and there's no way companies aren't aware of that. Whether it's just cosmetic items doesn't really matter, it's the process of continuing to pay real money (in a game you've also probably already spent $60) for content that is not guaranteed. Ultimately I don't think being sued over loot boxes specifically is going to stop the overall issue of microtransactions in games, which imo is the real problem. But I think removing them is at the very least a step in the right direction. AFAIK, all major gaming companies employ psychologists. And not just for making monetization more attractive, but for other elements in the game too. A lot of game design is in understanding how people think, how they react, and so on. And you better believe they understand the value of the Skinner Box, Variable Rate Reinforcement, Dopamine Response Rates, etc., etc.. How to manipulate to social groups, how to apply peer pressure to buy loot boxes. It's deep, and there can be some very subtle influences alongside the more obvious ones. Some of the white paper stuff I've seen (to make monetization more attractive) is downright insidious. Of course it's best to condition the behavior that you want when they're young. Create addictive behaviors that will serve you over the long term.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Sept 3, 2020 21:50:49 GMT
Brother, people like me are not the government who don't understand the game industry or gambling addiction, we're people concerned about this stuff and who play games. Games as an industry are not so new that a majority of people concerned about them don't know anything about them anymore. And the cosmetic detail is besides the point, people who struggle with an addiction to gambling or kids who got access to their mom's credit card aren't just going to not go hog wild because they're cosmetic. The problem is that lootboxes themselves engender addictive behavior. Or the problem is that parents need to restrict children's access to their credit cards. I'm not sure if people are truly concerned or just want to feel self righteous because it's EA other wise you might as well declare trading card packs as gambling since what you get is random. Parents can't watch their children every second of the day, though. Especially not in an environment where both of them most likely work. Our own parents were surely not to blame for all the stupid and shitty things we all did as children. I actually do support government regulation of games in principle, just like I support regulation of all other industries. I just don't agree with certain regulations. But regulation of industries is critical, because history (and the present) has shown that, without it, corporations will lie, sell dangerous products, abuse their workers, etc etc.
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Post by gum on Sept 3, 2020 21:55:10 GMT
Brother, people like me are not the government who don't understand the game industry or gambling addiction, we're people concerned about this stuff and who play games. Games as an industry are not so new that a majority of people concerned about them don't know anything about them anymore. And the cosmetic detail is besides the point, people who struggle with an addiction to gambling or kids who got access to their mom's credit card aren't just going to not go hog wild because they're cosmetic. The problem is that lootboxes themselves engender addictive behavior. Or the problem is that parents need to restrict children's access to their credit cards. I'm not sure if people are truly concerned or just want to feel self righteous because it's EA other wise you might as well declare trading card packs as gambling since what you get is random. ? I don't care about EA one way or the other? What has EA done that's better or worse than any other large game company? I'm not sure why this keeps coming up, I do not care about any individual companies, I only care about what is better for people buying the games. AGAIN I don't even know if EA specifically has enough of a case made against them for anything to happen here, I'm just pointing out how lootboxes are predatory and how they don't need our support. And I don't think most parents suspect their kids going into their purse or drawers and stealing their credit cards, which is what has happened in a lot of these cases. Not to mention that we're feeding into potential gambling addictions at a young age by making this available in games oriented toward kids. Unlike issues of censorship that have come up in video games, comics, and movies before without evidence supporting that they cause violence (and sometimes even with evidence against it), there is actual studies about addiction and the psychology behind it and how it relates to video games.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 3, 2020 21:58:36 GMT
Set up equipment like consoles or computers to need passwords in order to use credit cards, then don’t tell children the passwords.
Simple solution for simple problem, unlike the Pandora’s box that having the government determine what’s suitable in a game will open.
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Post by smilesja on Sept 3, 2020 22:10:49 GMT
Or the problem is that parents need to restrict children's access to their credit cards. I'm not sure if people are truly concerned or just want to feel self righteous because it's EA other wise you might as well declare trading card packs as gambling since what you get is random. Parents can't watch their children every second of the day, though. Especially not in an environment where both of them most likely work. Our own parents were surely not to blame for all the stupid and shitty things we all did as children. I actually do support government regulation of games in principle, just like I support regulation of all other industries. I just don't agree with certain regulations. But regulation of industries is critical, because history (and the present) has shown that, without it, corporations will lie, sell dangerous products, abuse their workers, etc etc. True which is why I say it's important for parents to restrict children's access to things like their cred card.
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Post by gum on Sept 3, 2020 22:12:55 GMT
Set up equipment like consoles or computers to need passwords in order to use credit cards, then don’t tell children the passwords. Simple solution for simple problem, unlike the Pandora’s box that having the government determine what’s suitable in a game will open. What exactly is going to happen if the government regulates lootboxes? This one lawsuit isn't going to let the government have tyrannical power over how every aspect of games are made, it's just about lootboxes and whether it breaches gambling laws... It doesn't mean other lawsuits involving government intervention are all suddenly going to win forever after now. Like.... They all have to make a case for themselves individually each time something comes up.
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Post by smilesja on Sept 3, 2020 22:21:31 GMT
Or the problem is that parents need to restrict children's access to their credit cards. I'm not sure if people are truly concerned or just want to feel self righteous because it's EA other wise you might as well declare trading card packs as gambling since what you get is random. ? I don't care about EA one way or the other? What has EA done that's better or worse than any other large game company? I'm not sure why this keeps coming up, I do not care about any individual companies, I only care about what is better for people buying the games. AGAIN I don't even know if EA specifically has enough of a case made against them for anything to happen here, I'm just pointing out how lootboxes are predatory and how they don't need our support. And I don't think most parents suspect their kids going into their purse or drawers and stealing their credit cards, which is what has happened in a lot of these cases. Not to mention that we're feeding into potential gambling addictions at a young age by making this available in games oriented toward kids. Unlike issues of censorship that have come up in video games, comics, and movies before without evidence supporting that they cause violence (and sometimes even with evidence against it), there is actual studies about addiction and the psychology behind it and how it relates to video games. Like I said I don't care about lootboxes and sometimes buy them as long as they're not pay to win. That being said you'll be surprised how many game devolpers still believe that games can cause violence. (Like the developers from Spec Ops: The Line.)
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Post by pessimistpanda on Sept 3, 2020 22:24:21 GMT
Set up equipment like consoles or computers to need passwords in order to use credit cards, then don’t tell children the passwords. Simple solution for simple problem, unlike the Pandora’s box that having the government determine what’s suitable in a game will open. And if a company decides NOT to put a "require password at checkout" option in their console or digital storefront? Why, I suppose you would need a law that compels them to do so. What, specfically, are you afraid of your government doing? In our current hyper-capitalist right-wing hellhole, the more likely concern is that governments will remove consumer protections, not increase them.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 3, 2020 22:25:34 GMT
Set up equipment like consoles or computers to need passwords in order to use credit cards, then don’t tell children the passwords. Simple solution for simple problem, unlike the Pandora’s box that having the government determine what’s suitable in a game will open. What exactly is going to happen if the government regulates lootboxes? This one lawsuit isn't going to let the government have tyrannical power over how every aspect of games are made, it's just about lootboxes and whether it breaches gambling laws... It doesn't mean other lawsuits involving government intervention are all suddenly going to win forever after now. Like.... They all have to make a case for themselves individually each time something comes up. It'll open the door for them to protest and shut down anything they are against, with the legal precedence to support it. It's not like some governments haven't already tried that, some succeeding. I'm not one to take that chance, especially lately, when there are far easier alternatives as simple as a single password.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Sept 3, 2020 22:25:56 GMT
? I don't care about EA one way or the other? What has EA done that's better or worse than any other large game company? I'm not sure why this keeps coming up, I do not care about any individual companies, I only care about what is better for people buying the games. AGAIN I don't even know if EA specifically has enough of a case made against them for anything to happen here, I'm just pointing out how lootboxes are predatory and how they don't need our support. And I don't think most parents suspect their kids going into their purse or drawers and stealing their credit cards, which is what has happened in a lot of these cases. Not to mention that we're feeding into potential gambling addictions at a young age by making this available in games oriented toward kids. Unlike issues of censorship that have come up in video games, comics, and movies before without evidence supporting that they cause violence (and sometimes even with evidence against it), there is actual studies about addiction and the psychology behind it and how it relates to video games. Like I said I don't care about lootboxes and sometimes buy them as long as they're not pay to win. That being said you'll be surprised how many game devolpers still believe that games can cause violence. (Like the developers from Spec Ops: The Line.) Yeah, they don't really believe that. I can promise you that much.
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