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Post by gervaise21 on Mar 7, 2024 8:10:25 GMT
I've had another thought. Dumat, Toth and Lusacan were the patron gods of Neromenian. That barbarian kingdom was in the south and east of the Nocen Sea. Dumat arose in the Silent Plains (southern Tevinter), Toth arose in southern Tevinter with the darkspawn first attacking Marnas Pell and Vyrantium. Lusacan has yet to arise but my guess is that he is located somewhere under ancient Neromenian. In the comic series, wraiths of Thedas, the stronghold of Danarius was on that south-east coast and known as Castel Tenebrium, Castle of Shadow, so probably dated back to Ancient Tevinter as a major shrine/stronghold of Lusacan worshipers. He could well be the voice at the end of the latest trailer.
Using this idea, we have been told that Razikale was a patron of the kingdom of Tevinter, specifically Minrathous, so I think she is likely located very close to there. Zazikel was likely their other patron god (originally the goddess of freedom, only later being redesignated to chaos), which would fit with the Zazikel arising on that side of the Imperium either close to or within the Anderfels.
That would mean that Andoral and Urthemiel were likely the patron gods of the kingdom of Qarinus, even though the latter doesn't fit the pattern of being located close to their original worshipers but the ancient barbarians were also seafarers, so that may account for it, as those on the eastern and north-eastern side of Thedas do seem to have maintained close links with the sea so could well have had a colony further south.
Now there was some suggestion both in Asunder and DAI (Western Approach) that there is an Arch-demon in that location, so perhaps that is Lusacan or, alternatively, that was the location of, say, Toth, and it was just a left over trace of their prison that they were sensing. He could have traveled a fair way under the Deep Roads before actually breaking out on the surface and then headed north towards the nearest populated area of southern Tevinter. Wasn't there a specific statue to Toth in the Western Approach?
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Post by Black Magic Ritual on Mar 8, 2024 1:55:25 GMT
I thought over how the player overthrowing the First Warden and becoming the leader - would it cause a rift between him and the Anderfels Royal Family? I'd also like an option in DAD to purge the entire royal family - leaving the player as Dictator-Warden of the Anderfels.
Maybe he could start aggressively expanding Anderfels borders against Tevinter or the Qun? Or if a double Blight is on the cards, start demanding the other nations of Thedas give him more Grey Wardens?
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Post by gervaise21 on Mar 8, 2024 9:41:29 GMT
I thought over how the player overthrowing the First Warden and becoming the leader - would it cause a rift between him and the Anderfels Royal Family? This would only work if the recent leak is true and Weisshaupt is going to be our base in the game, which I very much doubt. It would be strange if they make us a Warden for a second time and personally I would rather be not so constrained. However, according to World of Thedas there is very much a faction within the Wardens that does not approve of his actions in being so political. It suggested that if anyone was going to overthrow the royal family it would be him. It would seem they are currently very weak in the Anderfels and the country is on the verge of anarchy, which is why the First Warden has represented himself as the person to fill the role of leadership over the whole country and not just the Wardens. So, I think it is very likely we will get involved in some sort of kingmaker role, whether it is replacing the First Warden or the Monarch. Maybe he could start aggressively expanding Anderfels borders against Tevinter or the Qun? The people of the Anderfels are tough but not that numerous and the Wardens only number a couple of hundred, so the chances of waging a successful war of expansion would be rather slim. However, it may be similar to DAO (and DAI for that matter) that we are looking for allies as part of a collective army from several sources to defend from a Thedas wide threat, be that a double Blight or simply Solas. In some cases it might also be a choice between two armies, for example the Crows or the Qun, the Imperial forces of the Archon or the rebels of the Viper (both of which would be opposed to the Qun). On a related subject, I wonder if one of our quests will be following up on the Hero of Ferelden's search for a cure for the taint? They were meant to have travelled into the West, which could mean anyway on that side of Thedas but the Tirashan might be a good bet. The ability to cleanse red lyrium might go some way to convincing Solas that he doesn't need to flood the world with magical energy to save it from corruption. I'm still working on the hypothosis that the taint/blight was behind his action against the Evanuris and the need to drop the Veil is to have sufficient power to cleanse the world of the effects of the taint.
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Post by Cyberstrike on Mar 11, 2024 19:50:05 GMT
Unless there is another Blight and/or the darkspawn are major threat in this game (not just in some random encounters or in some DLC) I would prefer NOT to have another Grey Warden in DAD.
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Post by Black Magic Ritual on Mar 12, 2024 3:46:51 GMT
Is it possible for a Warden who slew an Archdemon while the Dark Ritual is performed to be cleansed of the taint? Like a sort of hidden benefit that Morrigan wasn't aware of? I'm trying to think back if there's something in the DAO dlc that contradicts it
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Post by Absafraginlootly on Mar 12, 2024 4:59:03 GMT
Is it possible for a Warden who slew an Archdemon while the Dark Ritual is performed to be cleansed of the taint? Like a sort of hidden benefit that Morrigan wasn't aware of? I'm trying to think back if there's something in the DAO dlc that contradicts it For this to be true the warden would have to choose to stay with the wardens and become the commander in awakening whilst no longer tainted and go looking for a cure to the calling even when they don't need it, which given you can absolutely play your warden as not wanting to be one or being entirely selfish, would make alot of people characters stop making sense. Edit: unless your suggesting the HoF wouldn't know? But surely they would notice they can't sense darkspawn anymore during the events of awakening?
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Post by Absafraginlootly on Mar 12, 2024 5:11:12 GMT
Unless there is another Blight and/or the darkspawn are major threat in this game (not just in some random encounters or in some DLC) I would prefer NOT to have another Grey Warden in DAD. The red Lyrium darkspawn in the concept art and teaser, the new funky darkspawn from the horrors of hormak, the recent location trailer arts with wardens and Anderfels in them and the leak with the apparent attack on weisshaupt All suggest that wardens and darkspawn are going to have a significant part to play to me.
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Post by gervaise21 on Mar 12, 2024 8:04:25 GMT
I'm trying to think back if there's something in the DAO dlc that contradicts it There is nothing to suggest the Dark Ritual cleanses the Hero of the taint. On the contrary, it is the fact they are tainted and pass this on to the foetus that allows the ritual to succeed. This is why no one in the Wardens would necessarily think it odd that the Hero suddenly went off on their own. They would simply assume they had started hearing the Calling. The corruption spreads through them more quickly if they have been part of a Blight rather than a Warden in between times. No idea why this should be but I suppose it might partly explain why the southern Wardens didn't think it odd that they should all start hearing the Calling at the same time, since presumably the majority of them were around at the time of the 5th Blight, just stuck on the border with Orlais rather than actually inside Ferelden. Also, not every Warden who went west did the Dark Ritual. My first run they survived because Alistair volunteered to make the ultimate sacrifice. In another run Loghain voluntarily took the fall. So, these Wardens would have every reason to be seeking a cure and making the dark ritual have a greater benefit than just meaning no one had to make the ultimate sacrifice would elevate it to a point where it makes even more problems down the line than the OGB did. More to the point, we know that it is possible to be cured of the taint because that is what happened with Fiona. I've never read the Calling but from what I understand, this was due to some sort of amulet that was meant to accelerate the taint but instead reversed it. Basically, DG needed to cure her as a plot device that was fine for a single novel but created problems down the line in the need to explain it. I must admit that I think he was too fond of the use of magical doodads in his novels and comic series which seem vastly overpowered and really mess with the lore. This then spills over into the games. It would be okay if the reasoning behind them was consistent with the lore and we are given of proper explanation but usually it seems that as with the time travel in DAI, we are meant to just accept the explanation "it's magic, go with it". So, the Hero plot in DAI could just have been another of those necessary plot devices because they needed to explain why they didn't feature among the southern Wardens and the "search for the cure" seemed as good an explanation as any for why they were missing. In which case, it might well lead nowhere. Certainly, if the Hero romanced Leliana, then at the end of Trespasser they are back with her in honorable retirement for them both and that is it. No explanation of whether they found a cure or not. Perhaps they were hoping we would forget it or just assume the trip was a failure. However, there is just a slim chance that it was meant to be significant in some way and that perhaps we will receive information from them that may be helpful.
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Post by Black Magic Ritual on Mar 12, 2024 19:59:53 GMT
I've wondered how the First Warden and the elite of Weissahaupt would react if the Dark Ritual was performed and the Warden still alive after slaying Urthiemel. Would they be surprised or would they suspect that something else is at play? If the First Warden was around from Blight 1, would he "know" that it was Flemeth who concocted it? Is it possible that it was someone other then Flemeth or the First Warden who concocted it the Dark Ritual itself? The only clue we have is that the Ritual predates the first circle of Magi. I think you posted once gervaise21 in Last Flight how Garahel's ONS with Queen Mariwen was a proto Dark Ritual - but it failed regardless since Garahel died anyway. Could the Anderfels family be aware of something that the Wardens don't?
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Post by gervaise21 on Mar 13, 2024 7:51:48 GMT
The only clue we have is that the Ritual predates the first circle of Magi. Where did you get that information? There has been a lot of speculation whether there was a previous dark ritual performed before the 5th Blight but I don't recall any specific reference to this occurring. I think you posted once gervaise21 in Last Flight how Garahel's ONS with Queen Mariwen was a proto Dark Ritual - but it failed regardless since Garahel died anyway. Co For this to be the case, the Queen would have to be some sort of mage as the ritual does seem to involve magic. As far as I understand it, Garahel was dead sexy and the Queen fancied him, so she insisted on a night of passion in return for releasing her forces to him. I suppose the only reason it might be possible to imagine it was intended as a dark ritual is that Morrigan seemed aware of the fact that Garahel was renowned for his exploits in bed. It does seem out of character for Morrigan to be concerned with ancient smutty gossip. That was far more in Zevran's line of thinking. In any case, if it was intended as a dark ritual, the reason it failed is that they didn't confront the Arch-demon until much later and on the other side of Thedas. I imagine the distance combined with the fact that the foetus would now have been born and a young child, would mean it was a non-starter. I think it was vital for success that the foetus was conceived as close to killing the Arch-demon as possible. I've wondered how the First Warden and the elite of Weissahaupt would react if the Dark Ritual was performed and the Warden still alive after slaying Urthiemel. In DAO at the final gathering in Denerim, I seem to recall that Alistair mentioned something about the other Wardens questioning why we were both still alive. In this particular case, my Warden was female, so it was Alistair who did the ritual. I seem to recall I advised him to play dumb, which he admitted wasn't something he really had to fake. So, clearly it was considered odd by the Wardens in the south and likely back at HQ when they heard about it. Perhaps someone at HQ, like the First Warden, was actually aware this was a possibility and that is why they didn't pursue it further or may be they were just happy that the Blight was over. By this point they would already have been confronted by the fact of Fiona having been cured, when they always imagined this was impossible (or so they say), so it is possible that the First Warden may have had to accept that they didn't know as much as they thought about the way the taint and the Blight works, including how the Arch-demon dies. Here is an interesting thought, though. I wonder if Wardens ever came near Kieran and could sense something peculiar about him?
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Post by Black Magic Ritual on Mar 13, 2024 17:54:42 GMT
The only clue we have is that the Ritual predates the first circle of Magi. Where did you get that information? There has been a lot of speculation whether there was a previous dark ritual performed before the 5th Blight but I don't recall any specific reference to this occurring. I think you posted once gervaise21 in Last Flight how Garahel's ONS with Queen Mariwen was a proto Dark Ritual - but it failed regardless since Garahel died anyway. Co For this to be the case, the Queen would have to be some sort of mage as the ritual does seem to involve magic. As far as I understand it, Garahel was dead sexy and the Queen fancied him, so she insisted on a night of passion in return for releasing her forces to him. I suppose the only reason it might be possible to imagine it was intended as a dark ritual is that Morrigan seemed aware of the fact that Garahel was renowned for his exploits in bed. It does seem out of character for Morrigan to be concerned with ancient smutty gossip. That was far more in Zevran's line of thinking. In any case, if it was intended as a dark ritual, the reason it failed is that they didn't confront the Arch-demon until much later and on the other side of Thedas. I imagine the distance combined with the fact that the foetus would now have been born and a young child, would mean it was a non-starter. I think it was vital for success that the foetus was conceived as close to killing the Arch-demon as possible. I've wondered how the First Warden and the elite of Weissahaupt would react if the Dark Ritual was performed and the Warden still alive after slaying Urthiemel. In DAO at the final gathering in Denerim, I seem to recall that Alistair mentioned something about the other Wardens questioning why we were both still alive. In this particular case, my Warden was female, so it was Alistair who did the ritual. I seem to recall I advised him to play dumb, which he admitted wasn't something he really had to fake. So, clearly it was considered odd by the Wardens in the south and likely back at HQ when they heard about it. Perhaps someone at HQ, like the First Warden, was actually aware this was a possibility and that is why they didn't pursue it further or may be they were just happy that the Blight was over. By this point they would already have been confronted by the fact of Fiona having been cured, when they always imagined this was impossible (or so they say), so it is possible that the First Warden may have had to accept that they didn't know as much as they thought about the way the taint and the Blight works, including how the Arch-demon dies. Here is an interesting thought, though. I wonder if Wardens ever came near Kieran and could sense something peculiar about him? It says here in the Dark Ritual itself from Morrigan. She claims it was a ritual concocted before the First Circle of Magi was ever created. She says this was the real reason that Flemeth saved them, and that Morrigan and Flemeth are both aware that an Archdemon could only be killed through the sacrifice of a Grey Warden. However, Morrigan claims killing an archdemon and surviving is something that no grey warden has every done before. So unless Flemeth knows the warden who killed Dumat and lived and withheld this piece of information from Morrigan, then that means this must be the first time the Dark Ritual has ever been performed. dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/Morrigan%27s_Ritual
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Post by Absafraginlootly on Mar 13, 2024 22:25:50 GMT
Being pregnant with Alistair (and therefore presumably great dragon blood) was one of the contributing factors for Fiona's cure wasn't it? If the wardens kept track of where Alistair ended up then they may have just thought "it's that feckin' miracle baby again" when no-one died defeating the archdemon.
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Post by Black Magic Ritual on Mar 14, 2024 1:21:10 GMT
I thought over this considering that a Double Blight seems to be on the cards for DA4 - What if Flemeth wanted Kieran as a counter against the two remaining Old Gods?
If Andraste was an OGB and Dumat's soul is still around somewhere - did Flemeth intend for the the two old god babies to work together with The Warden/another character in the inevitable Final Blight?
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Post by gervaise21 on Mar 14, 2024 11:57:00 GMT
It says here in the Dark Ritual itself from Morrigan. She claims it was a ritual concocted before the First Circle of Magi was ever created. She says this was the real reason that Flemeth saved them, and that Morrigan and Flemeth are both aware that an Archdemon could only be killed through the sacrifice of a Grey Warden. Okay, so that means whoever devised the Dark Ritual, they were around before the modern calendar, which rules out Flemeth because she only emerged in the Towers Age. However, she got her knowledge from merging with Mythal, so the ritual could have been even older in origin, back to the time of ancient Arlathan. Certainly the ability to transfer the soul on death, even to an inanimate object such as the amulet used in DA2, so long as it contained a piece of the original being, was knowledge that came from Mythal. Essentially, that is what the foetus is, a piece of the original person, except that the necessary component is the taint itself. The principle driving it is pretty much the same though. So, either Mythal tried to get someone else to influence the Wardens involved in the 1st and 2nd Blights but they refused, so then she joined with Flemeth and tried it again for the 3rd and 4th Blights but that also proved a non starter. Then she tried a different ploy and introduced the dragon blood to Calenhad. To be honest, the ideal candidate to mate with Morrigan was Alistair, as he was both a Grey Warden and had the dragon bloodline, which would mean that the OGB would also have both. Being pregnant with Alistair (and therefore presumably great dragon blood) was one of the contributing factors for Fiona's cure wasn't it? That's only fan speculation. The reason given in the novel was the amulet. I doubt DG even realised the significance when he introduced the bloodline story in the comic series. After all, if having dragon blood in the foetus cured Fiona, surely it should have resisted the Joining in Alistair, which it didn't. All the dragon blood would do is delay the deterioration of the Grey Warden, because studies of dragons have shown it takes longer for them to become fully corrupted but it is still possible eventually. Look at Corypheus' dragon. If Andraste was an OGB and Dumat's soul is still around somewhere I think that Andraste was more likely an earlier possession by Mythal than an OGB. I think the real reason they burnt Andraste is that they wanted to ensure there was no body left that the spirit could resurrect, the Ancient Tevinter mages likely knowing more about these things. Flemeth could well have been a descendant of Andraste. The lore said that she only gave birth to daughters and they only gave birth to daughters and so on. The surviving branch was the one that came from her daughter's marriage to a Tevinter mage, so there is likely a strong magical bloodline there. Eventually the line resulted in Flemeth and she hooked up with Mythal again. Then Flemeth only has daughters. Of course, it could be that Flemeth lied to Morrigan about how she acquired Mythal and that it was a case of her passing from daughter to daughter down the years. As Flemeth explains, the soul cannot be forced on the unwilling, so in each generation the daughter would have to be persuaded to allow the transfer. What if Flemeth wanted Kieran as a counter against the two remaining Old Gods? I am not sure they ever really thought out properly what they wanted to do with Kieran. He didn't fit the pattern being a boy rather than a girl, so it does rather ruin my theories about the Andraste bloodline or even that of Flemeth always having daughters. Could that be why Flemeth wanted to recover the soul from him? As it is, Flemeth always seemed ready to either possess Kieran or remove the soul to her own body, so it was never about having a separate entity to fight with the Old Gods but rather acquiring greater power contained in one individual.
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Post by Black Magic Ritual on Mar 29, 2024 21:25:16 GMT
Is it possible that the First Warden/Magister Sidereal concocted both The Joining and The Dark Ritual?
I thought over how Flemeth might not even have been the one who created the Ritual at all, but that she was taught it by someone else who wanted her to perform it with another Grey Warden.
Assuming the FW was a Magister and was blighted beyond belief and lacked any sex appeal - would that mean Flemeth was a sexy elf girl working alongside the Wardens towards the end of Blight 1?
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Post by gervaise21 on Mar 30, 2024 17:18:45 GMT
An elf definitely came up with the Joining. Not sure of their origins but they could have been a revived ancient elf or just found out about the ritual in ancient texts or through a creature of the Fade telling them.
As I've said, I think Flemeth has acquired most of her ancient knowledge from Mythal, including how the dark ritual worked.
It's odd actually because you would think the Magister, if they knew about the ritual, would want to kill the arch-demon themselves as the soul would then jump to them. Yet, Corypheus didn't seem around during the 1st Blight and didn't appear until after Dumat was dead. So, if as I've surmised, the relevant High Priest of the gods is needed to revive them, perhaps they are knocked out or something until the arch-demon is dead. After all, the Architect revived Urthemiel but then seemed to disappear until it had been dealt with and only resurfaced then. May be that had something to do with ensuring the old god soul didn't pass to the Magister Sidereal.
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