catcher
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Post by catcher on Jul 3, 2021 4:29:56 GMT
So this is why i make different post. This text is getting long. your wish is my command. I think it has been too long since you played it. I hope you not only like to write long texts, but also to read them. There aren't many, but i found a few. And i remember that with varric wrong. It wasn't in the hinterlands. 1)at the beginning you have many cut scenes with Cassandra (Companion to PC) where she explains the world. I hope you don't want me to repeat them. 2) after meeting Varric and Solas, you got the tactics lecter. Then at the burning houses you go left. There are some enemies. After killing them you can get 4 different conversation one for each breed. elve: Solas: "You are Dalish! Clearly away from the rest of your clan and they send you here." Inquisitor:"What do you know of the Dalish?" Solas: "I have wander many roads ... Crosspath with your people ... "(have shortened here) Inquisitor: 1)They're your people, too. 2)"Crossed paths?" 3)Then you know to be wary. solas answers and then Varric comment something like why elves can't get along with each other. human: (a translation into english. Haven't found a english one) Varric: "ah, so you come from the free marches?" Inquisitor: ... (i don't know what the inquisitor is saying here.) Varric: "your accent. I'm from Kirkwall, but your home is further east." Inquisitor: 1)well observed. 2)that's kind of strange. 3)is this an interrogation? dwarf and qunari I didn't find them in a hurry. 3)back to the burning houses and going up the stairs. Varric: "So are you innocent?" Inquisitor:"I don't remember what happend." Varric:"That'll get you every time. Should have spun a story." Cassandra:"That's what you would have done." Varric:"It's more believable, and less prone to result in premature execution." 4)Later when you go to val royeaux. Cassandra:"They wish to protect the people? From us?" Inquisitor: 1)We expeted this. 2)protect them from me? 3)They can try. if you don't choose fast enough, Varric reacts for you. 5)while I was looking, I read on a page that it also happens with certain banter. this was an example: Cole: You're afraid. You don't have to be. Vivienne: My dear Inquisitor, please restrain your pet demon. I do not want it addressing me. Inquisitor: Cole, Vivienne doesn't want to talk right now. (here they wrote you can also choose an answer) Cole: She's afraid! Cole: Everything bright, roar of anger as the demon rears. No, I will not fall. No one will ever control me again. Cole: Flash of white as the world comes back. Shaking, hollow, Harrowed, but smiling at templars to show them I'm me. Cole: I am not like that. I can protect you. If Templars come for you, I will kill them. Vivienne: Delightful. I agree with you. But i think that was the plan for DAI. Everything to do it is there, the only thing that was needed was time. But they choose to put the time in an open skyrim like world. It was a bad idea. Ahhh, yes, thanks for the reminder. Using my categories above, I would really call this banter but even so, you will notice it evaporated quickly. The best explanation is the all that discussion in the introduction phase up to the PC visiting Val Royeux's back porch for the first time can assume you only have three specific Companions (Cassandra, Solas, and Varric). You can't meet and recruit Blackwall until after that visit (I've gone to his cabin that early in the game: no one home). Both Sera and Vivianne make contact at the porch. Krem doesn't show up to sell the Bull until after you have gone there. Cole and Dorian arrive even later. With only three characters, tailoring banter to your responses, your race, your class, etc. is much easier so they ran with it there. The Cole/Vivianne banter is also a unique bit since Viv refuses to speak directly to Cole until she decides to shut him down. What I would like to see more of in DA4, though isn't necessarily this kind of banter (not that I wouldn't like it but I know how hellishly expensive it could get once you get a full party available), is Conversations that the Companion initiates. To use DA: I to make examples, instead of going to talk to Cassandra and finding her in the Map Room trying to figure out where the rest of the Seekers are, she should storm right up to the Inquisitor on her own. She's direct and not afraid to speak her mind at all. When you get to the point where Vivianne wants you to find the heart of a snowy wyvren, she should send a footman or flunky to do so because that's what they are for, dahling. Let the Companions be more active in determining where and how Conversations take place and it will help build them as characters too. Thanks again for the reminder.
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fairdragon
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Post by fairdragon on Jul 3, 2021 10:55:38 GMT
I will answer each of your questions in a separate post, otherwise it will be too long. if i understand you correct. I am not a native speaker. It is very easy to help out. I don't like timer after all. why use them? It is better to link the conversations with specific locations. Then you can make sure nobody walk in and end the conversation. And you can make the conversation more meaningful, if it have something to do with the location. First, I think I need to do a better job differentiating between Conversations and Banter. Conversations are points where the PC interacts directly with one or more of the Companions in a cutscene-type environment. Think about all the interactions with Companions after the Main Plot point in DA:I. Those can indeed be at specific locations but that's moot if the Party is in Camp. It's a little more tricky outside of 'Camp' because you have to have some way to signal the Player there's somethin to talk about, who wants to talk, and that its safe to do so. NWN used an audio cue from the character (Aribeth's "I must speak to you, for example). DA:O used random encounter locations and interrupts by the Companions (like Sten in Haven or Alistair at the entrance to Redcliffe) which I have already endorsed. Party banter is what is on a timer in DA:I. The timer system was probably used in DA:I because there weren't the narrow paths and chokepoints there were in the earlier DA games. Also, the illusion of organic discussion is better maintained with a timer (I copped to bridges triggering banter pretty quickly in DA:O). Further, using a timer ostensibly means the developers can control how quickly banter gets out to avoid burning through it too quickly. this was a problem in both DA:O and DA2. They did try clickable points in Trespasser but that really didn't work for me as being a bot too artificial for banter. That's some of what I mean about trying to find ways to improve triggers in DA4. Sorry i am no programmer. For me banter are conversations as the cut scene conversation. no difference when i talk about it. So i will try to write what I mean. why signal? We speak about companion to companion banter here. When i say linked i mean that you walk to a certain point and the banter conversation starts automatically. look at my examples (Companion to PC) as for burning through you need in DAI to use not only location but location after certain events and then only one certain banter for one location at one certain time.
And to use only bridges is pretty boring. For example: A banter start at the stormy coast before you choose magician or templar and another one after that. That would have the benefit the gamer would search for these locations and come back later to see if they getting another one. maybe I'm asking too much. you need many locations for it.
"as being a bot too artificial for banter." What do you mean by that? I didn't play Trespasser. I only looked up the importen story linies from it. I hope you understand what i am trying to say .
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fairdragon
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fairdragon
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate
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Post by fairdragon on Jul 3, 2021 11:32:07 GMT
So this is why i make different post. This text is getting long. your wish is my command. I think it has been too long since you played it. I hope you not only like to write long texts, but also to read them. There aren't many, but i found a few. And i remember that with varric wrong. It wasn't in the hinterlands. 1)at the beginning you have many cut scenes with Cassandra (Companion to PC) where she explains the world. I hope you don't want me to repeat them. 2) after meeting Varric and Solas, you got the tactics lecter. Then at the burning houses you go left. There are some enemies. After killing them you can get 4 different conversation one for each breed. elve: Solas: "You are Dalish! Clearly away from the rest of your clan and they send you here." Inquisitor:"What do you know of the Dalish?" Solas: "I have wander many roads ... Crosspath with your people ... "(have shortened here) Inquisitor: 1)They're your people, too. 2)"Crossed paths?" 3)Then you know to be wary. solas answers and then Varric comment something like why elves can't get along with each other. human: (a translation into english. Haven't found a english one) Varric: "ah, so you come from the free marches?" Inquisitor: ... (i don't know what the inquisitor is saying here.) Varric: "your accent. I'm from Kirkwall, but your home is further east." Inquisitor: 1)well observed. 2)that's kind of strange. 3)is this an interrogation? dwarf and qunari I didn't find them in a hurry. 3)back to the burning houses and going up the stairs. Varric: "So are you innocent?" Inquisitor:"I don't remember what happend." Varric:"That'll get you every time. Should have spun a story." Cassandra:"That's what you would have done." Varric:"It's more believable, and less prone to result in premature execution." 4)Later when you go to val royeaux. Cassandra:"They wish to protect the people? From us?" Inquisitor: 1)We expeted this. 2)protect them from me? 3)They can try. if you don't choose fast enough, Varric reacts for you. 5)while I was looking, I read on a page that it also happens with certain banter. this was an example: Cole: You're afraid. You don't have to be. Vivienne: My dear Inquisitor, please restrain your pet demon. I do not want it addressing me. Inquisitor: Cole, Vivienne doesn't want to talk right now. (here they wrote you can also choose an answer) Cole: She's afraid! Cole: Everything bright, roar of anger as the demon rears. No, I will not fall. No one will ever control me again. Cole: Flash of white as the world comes back. Shaking, hollow, Harrowed, but smiling at templars to show them I'm me. Cole: I am not like that. I can protect you. If Templars come for you, I will kill them. Vivienne: Delightful. I agree with you. But i think that was the plan for DAI. Everything to do it is there, the only thing that was needed was time. But they choose to put the time in an open skyrim like world. It was a bad idea. Ahhh, yes, thanks for the reminder. Using my categories above, I would really call this banter but even so, you will notice it evaporated quickly. The best explanation is the all that discussion in the introduction phase up to the PC visiting Val Royeux's back porch for the first time can assume you only have three specific Companions (Cassandra, Solas, and Varric). You can't meet and recruit Blackwall until after that visit (I've gone to his cabin that early in the game: no one home). Both Sera and Vivianne make contact at the porch. Krem doesn't show up to sell the Bull until after you have gone there. Cole and Dorian arrive even later. With only three characters, tailoring banter to your responses, your race, your class, etc. is much easier so they ran with it there. The Cole/Vivianne banter is also a unique bit since Viv refuses to speak directly to Cole until she decides to shut him down. What I would like to see more of in DA4, though isn't necessarily this kind of banter (not that I wouldn't like it but I know how hellishly expensive it could get once you get a full party available), is Conversations that the Companion initiates. To use DA: I to make examples, instead of going to talk to Cassandra and finding her in the Map Room trying to figure out where the rest of the Seekers are, she should storm right up to the Inquisitor on her own. She's direct and not afraid to speak her mind at all. When you get to the point where Vivianne wants you to find the heart of a snowy wyvren, she should send a footman or flunky to do so because that's what they are for, dahling. Let the Companions be more active in determining where and how Conversations take place and it will help build them as characters too. Thanks again for the reminder. Okay i understand.
But why to expensive? banter are looked to two companion if the Inquisitor responds to it, it is nothing else than the examples. It would be a few more lines. And even easier if you put the Inquisitor in for the second companion. It is a question of how many lines they can make and how they want to use these lines. I think in DAI we got only these because of the time they spent with skyrim open world imply. my guess.
Your idea is a little bit complicated to imply, or not? I would use cut scene conversation for this, because banter conversation aren't so flexible. At lest i haven't seen it yet. in base it would work very well. You walk in to skyhold and a cut scene start were Cassandra storm right up to the Inquisitor to figure out with him where the rest of the Seekers are. But cut scene are expensive. But if you want a real Companion to PC i don't see another way. Maybe i should tell you that all Conversation where you have to click on a person are PC to Person for me.
So for exemple:
Josephine:" i want to speak to you." you click on her. Inquisitor:"what is the matter" and so on is for me a PC to Companion Conversation.
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fairdragon
N3
Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate
Posts: 920 Likes: 382
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Post by fairdragon on Jul 3, 2021 11:56:25 GMT
Another place I would like to see improvement is in some kind of cost for 'talking out of both sides of the mouth'. In DA:I, it was too easy to curry favor with one Companion with one statement, then make a contradictory statement to another Companion just a little later. There has to be something better than this, but I also wouldn't want things we say translating instantly into Disfavor/Favor with another Companion as if carried on quantum entangled wings. Anyone got some ideas? if we take a look at real life. You can say friend a something totaly different than friend b, that is normal. The things that difficult to imply is that they can found out that you have done it and can confront you with it. So if you want improvement, then i would like that. because gamers who want to play a bad person would like to be able to do just that. For gamers who doing that to have everyone happy,they want it to be that way so what.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
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Post by gaycaravaggio on Jul 7, 2021 2:03:43 GMT
I would be curious to see how companion interaction is handled in DA4. One thing that I'm wondering is, whether they will keep the amount of characters like they had in Inquisition. I felt as though some characters' content suffered from being one of many, with some characters being focused on more than others. Inquisition has 12 inner circle characters, I believe, which is quite a bit. It's harder to have all of them interact much if there's a lot of characters.
What is your opinion on lowering or increasing or keeping the amount of characters as it is?
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jul 7, 2021 3:43:36 GMT
I would be curious to see how companion interaction is handled in DA4. One thing that I'm wondering is, whether they will keep the amount of characters like they had in Inquisition. I felt as though some characters' content suffered from being one of many, with some characters being focused on more than others. Inquisition has 12 inner circle characters, I believe, which is quite a bit. It's harder to have all of them interact much if there's a lot of characters. What is your opinion on lowering or increasing or keeping the amount of characters as it is? I'd be fine with a lower number, especially if the narrative is focussed around acting in a clandestine manner, as literally all the art and hints so far seem to imply is the case. I absolutely do not want to play as the head of a large organziation again. I'd much prefer a small, close-knit team.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
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Post by gaycaravaggio on Jul 7, 2021 5:06:35 GMT
I would be curious to see how companion interaction is handled in DA4. One thing that I'm wondering is, whether they will keep the amount of characters like they had in Inquisition. I felt as though some characters' content suffered from being one of many, with some characters being focused on more than others. Inquisition has 12 inner circle characters, I believe, which is quite a bit. It's harder to have all of them interact much if there's a lot of characters. What is your opinion on lowering or increasing or keeping the amount of characters as it is? I'd be fine with a lower number, especially if the narrative is focussed around acting in a clandestine manner, as literally all the art and hints so far seem to imply is the case. I absolutely do not want to play as the head of a large organziation again. I'd much prefer a small, close-knit team. I would also prefer not playing the head of a large organization. It felt like there should have been more resource management and stat-building for the Inquisition. I didn't really feel as though we got to shape the organization as much as we could have, though maybe that was part of the point. That we were kind of powerless to guide the monster of a group the Inquisition was becoming, with it just being completely out of our hands.
Regardless, it would be nice to go back to have a ragtag team of people that we're just kind of thrown into the deep end with, without a safety net like a whole organization backing us.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jul 7, 2021 5:50:03 GMT
I'd be fine with a lower number, especially if the narrative is focussed around acting in a clandestine manner, as literally all the art and hints so far seem to imply is the case. I absolutely do not want to play as the head of a large organziation again. I'd much prefer a small, close-knit team. I would also prefer not playing the head of a large organization. It felt like there should have been more resource management and stat-building for the Inquisition. I didn't really feel as though we got to shape the organization as much as we could have, though maybe that was part of the point. That we were kind of powerless to guide the monster of a group the Inquisition was becoming, with it just being completely out of our hands.
Regardless, it would be nice to go back to have a ragtag team of people that we're just kind of thrown into the deep end with, without a safety net like a whole organization backing us.
Yes, I vastly prefer rag-tag over the kind of high-status/class, organization-leading, over-acheiving characters that make up most of who we work with in Inquisition. I simply can't relate to them, and in fantasy stories just generally, I'm far more interested in the "lower" levels of society and how they live than royals and shit.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jul 7, 2021 6:00:14 GMT
Meanwhile I definitely don't want them lowering the number, since the more there are the better chances there are that there's characters that you'll enjoy. Nothing worse than being forced to use someone you hate because they're the only option. I definitely think Bioware can handle that number and still have plenty of interactions between them, since they have before with DAI's 12 and especially MEA's 10.
Also with the other discussion, I see no reason why you can't both be part of an organization and yet still e a close knit team. Again, MEA shows this wonderfully if you think DAI didn't.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
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Post by gaycaravaggio on Jul 7, 2021 19:41:51 GMT
Better chances there's characters I will enjoy? Perhaps, I will get my sexy, plot relevant, evil lesbian companion after all! It won't happen. If we get a sexy, evil lesbian, she certainly won't be plot relevant or romanceable. But I can dream.
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catcher
N2
Casts Wall of Text
Games: Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
Posts: 204 Likes: 339
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339
catcher
Casts Wall of Text
204
February 2021
catcher
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by catcher on Jul 7, 2021 22:17:34 GMT
I hope you don't mind that I grouped all these responses together, fairdragon. As for understanding, I think I'm doing pretty well but wherever I don't is probably more my fault than yours. I KNOW that your English is far better than my <Enter other human language here>. Sorry i am no programmer. For me banter are conversations as the cut scene conversation. no difference when i talk about it. So i will try to write what I mean. why signal? We speak about companion to companion banter here. When i say linked i mean that you walk to a certain point and the banter conversation starts automatically. look at my examples (Companion to PC) as for burning through you need in DAI to use not only location but location after certain events and then only one certain banter for one location at one certain time.
I'm a programmer of mainframes in COBOL. That makes me as qualified to comment on specific game programming as being an accountant would make one qualified to advise Denmark on how best to defeat England in the Euro 2020 Semifinals today. Making each Companion banter linked to a specific location probably wouldn't work because of sheer maths involved. If you have 9 Companions (like DA:I) then there are 72 different sets of combinations of two Companion banters (9*8 = 72). If each Companion set has say 6 different banters available (much less than I think there were in DA:I), then you would need 432 (72*6) different conversation points selected, checked to avoid areas around random or planned spawns or drowning out NPCs with important information and tested. A more likely way to do that would be to have a number of different areas that work kind of like sound effect engines in NWN. When your party gets in the area of the 'conversation engine', it checks who is in your party and how far they have gotten in their shared conversation trees. It can trigger just the lowest one or weight the pick based on who has gone the longest without a conversation. That simplifies testing by concentrating down to a more manageable group of trigger areas to test and you can put them in the most travelled areas. Further, what happens when you miss one or more points marked for two Companions but hit a later one? Several of the banters in DA:O, 2, and I were effective because they built on previous banters. Like getting some pages stuck together in a book you are reading, that could be very disorienting. And to use only bridges is pretty boring. For example: A banter start at the stormy coast before you choose magician or templar and another one after that. That would have the benefit the gamer would search for these locations and come back later to see if they getting another one. maybe I'm asking too much. you need many locations for it.
The bridges was an example from DA:O not a suggestion from me. They work there and would work in even an open Environment because the Party pretty much HAS to pass through those points. Creating a conversation engine, though, could give the designers more flexibility so the conversations would not have to so visibly depend on squeezepoints. "as being a bot too artificial for banter." What do you mean by that? I didn't play Trespasser. I only looked up the importen story linies from it. I hope you understand what i am trying to say . Sorry about the assumption. There were floating 'interaction' points at certain places in Trespasser labeled something like 'Listen to Thom Ranier' or 'Listen to Dorian'. They looked kind of like the 'Interaction' points in When you clicked on one, you triggered a specific banter file that might include two Companions or the Companion and the Inquisitor. I think the mechanic was hamstrung by a lack of relevance of the specific point to the actual banter and it suffered with comparison to the similar mechanic with Morrigan in the Temple of Mythal. I think if they use that again, it needs to be directly relevant to the location and preferably, make it a discussion significant enough for a cutscene. That would be gravitas worthy of some exploration. Okay i understand.
But why to expensive? banter are looked to two companion if the Inquisitor responds to it, it is nothing else than the examples. It would be a few more lines. And even easier if you put the Inquisitor in for the second companion. It is a question of how many lines they can make and how they want to use these lines. I think in DAI we got only these because of the time they spent with skyrim open world imply. my guess.
I had to go back and play the introduction to jog my memory a little. Expensive in that each additional Companion requires both writing zots (How would Sera comment on a Dalish elf Inq differ from Solas'? How about Iron Bull?) and several lines (question, one of three Inq answers, one of three different responses by the questioner). Also, one thing I remember from the official boards and David Gaider from long ago is that there's really not any comparison between visual art assets and dialogue assets. As he said it, you can't just take a 3D modeller and make her a writer or put a level designer in charge of voice direction. These things have budgets that are largely set well before the game begins actual production. Your idea is a little bit complicated to imply, or not? I would use cut scene conversation for this, because banter conversation aren't so flexible. At lest i haven't seen it yet. in base it would work very well. You walk in to skyhold and a cut scene start were Cassandra storm right up to the Inquisitor to figure out with him where the rest of the Seekers are. But cut scene are expensive. But if you want a real Companion to PC i don't see another way. Maybe i should tell you that all Conversation where you have to click on a person are PC to Person for me.
So for exemple:
Josephine:" i want to speak to you." you click on her. Inquisitor:"what is the matter" and so on is for me a PC to Companion Conversation.
There's already a cutscene created to initiate Cassandra's request to locate the Seekers. All my thought would do is shift the trigger from Player clicks on Cassandra in Skyhold and she has a high enough approval state, to Player enters Skyhold and Cassandara has the appropriate approval rate. There would be some more expense in the more roundabout Companions but 1: I would keep this smallish, not in every Companion interaction and 2: It would better define the Companion character by comparison. look at real life. You can say friend a something totaly different than friend b, that is normal. The things that difficult to imply is that they can found out that you have done it and can confront you with it. So if you want improvement, then i would like that. because gamers who want to play a bad person would like to be able to do just that. For gamers who doing that to have everyone happy,they want it to be that way so what. Playing a bad person, I understand. having Companions be ignorant of what's being said behind their backs? Or ignoring the evidence of your actions over your words? Cole might be that naïve, Solas might let it pass for the greater goal, but Viv would cut you off at the knees and varric would show you a considerably unjolly side. My own opinion there. Thanks again for all your input.
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catcher
N2
Casts Wall of Text
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catcher
Casts Wall of Text
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February 2021
catcher
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by catcher on Jul 7, 2021 22:28:53 GMT
On the subject of number of Companions, I quite agree with Hanako (though I have less...selective standards when it comes to adventuring companions). More Companions mean better chances for a larger group of Gamers to find groupings of Companions that work. I don't think this time that we will have 'Advisors' that are quite as integral of in Inquisition so they may have more time to devote to actual adventuring Companions. Better chances there's characters I will enjoy? Perhaps, I will get my sexy, plot relevant, evil lesbian companion after all! It won't happen. If we get a sexy, evil lesbian, she certainly won't be plot relevant or romanceable. But I can dream. Just checking here: what exactly is evil and plot relevant to you? If Calpurnia had been romanceable for a female Inquisitor in DA:I (now THERE'S a thought), would that have 'counted'? Just kind of curious: about the Evil part since no one wears a alignment sign any more and I kind of consider all Companions and Villans to be plot relevant, but that's just me.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
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Post by gaycaravaggio on Jul 8, 2021 1:48:59 GMT
On the subject of number of Companions, I quite agree with Hanako (though I have less...selective standards when it comes to adventuring companions). More Companions mean better chances for a larger group of Gamers to find groupings of Companions that work. I don't think this time that we will have 'Advisors' that are quite as integral of in Inquisition so they may have more time to devote to actual adventuring Companions. Better chances there's characters I will enjoy? Perhaps, I will get my sexy, plot relevant, evil lesbian companion after all! It won't happen. If we get a sexy, evil lesbian, she certainly won't be plot relevant or romanceable. But I can dream. Just checking here: what exactly is evil and plot relevant to you? If Calpurnia had been romanceable for a female Inquisitor in DA:I (now THERE'S a thought), would that have 'counted'? Just kind of curious: about the Evil part since no one wears a alignment sign any more and I kind of consider all Companions and Villans to be plot relevant, but that's just me. Good question. I would think Calpurnia would count as plot relevant, but the "evil" part is more ambiguous. I absolutely would romance her regardless, but not sure she would count for my purposes, given she's more of a darker shade of grey. A well-intentioned extremist more than an actually cackling, evil villain. Then again, Dragon Age has very few of those with major character arcs these days. Either way, she is not a lesbian, and, even though she could possibly be bisexual, I figure she's straight.
Watch this start a glorious debate about the nature of evil. I'm frankly excited.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jul 8, 2021 3:36:39 GMT
I mean, I have my opinions about who is and isn't "evil" in DA (and IRL for that matter), but I acknowledge they're entirely arbitrary, just like everyone else's.
I've never been able to understand BioWare's reputation for supposedly crafting "morally complex" stories. I only ever encountered one situation in all their games I ever played where I genuinely had to pause to think it over. Otherwise I've never had any trouble deciding who was right or wrong in a situation, and have never had cause to regret any of my choices, except when the ancillary media added information that the games gave me no way to know (like Isabela being a slaver and Celene being a genocidal whackjob).
Supposedly "gray" characters like Loghain and Calpurnia, I've always read as pretty much irredeemably evil. If I was supposed to find good points in them, then as far as I'm concerned, BioWare failed to communicate that to me properly.
If Calpurnia wants to free slaves, then aligning herself with Corypheus makes absolutely no sense, because he wants to restore the "lost glory" of Tevinter (ie, return to a time when slavery was MORE rampant, not less) so she either doesn't really want to free slaves, or is very stupid. I can think of no other explanation. Ditto for Loghain; if his true motivation is the stated one of protecting Ferelden from tyranny, his actions make no sense, because they *are* tyrannical. By the time you get to actually confront him, he has betrayed and oppressed Ferelden and its people so thoroughly in every possible way that his fearmongering about Orlais holds no weight. If we're gonna be oppressed either way, what actual difference does it make if it's by one of our own or a FILTHY PSEUDO-FRENCHMAN?
Also, just generally, I don't accept arguments like "Sure, Person did Bad Thing X, but they also did Good Thing Y!"
Having done good things in the past or doing good things in the present/future doesn't earn you points you can redeem to cancel out your evil actions, life isn't Fallout. You are supposed to be good (or at least not actively harming others) *all the time*. Genuine redemption for harm you caused others comes from being genuinely sorry and making actual reparations, not from totally unrelated actions like, say, fighting off a nightmare demon, that do nothing at all for the elven lives and families you destroyed by selling them into slavery.
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Post by gaycaravaggio on Jul 8, 2021 6:46:06 GMT
I will say something that is perhaps controversial, but I'm not into characters for their moral purity. I feel as though this must be obvious by now, but I'd say it anyways. I like it when they take a character that seems to be "evil" or is considered as such and forces me to reckon with the fact that people are multi-dimensional. They contain multitudes and can't be summed up as "this evil awful person was just 100% terrible all the time and had no reason for doing what they did."
And it's obviously fine if, when faced with this character, you or fictional characters can't accept whatever reparations they've made, if they've made any. Or just simply don't like them. Because they're fictional characters created for our consumption, only significant in the respect that they make you feel something, and, even in some universe where they are real, someone is still not obligated to forgive them.
I also just don't necessarily think a character needs to be morally pure to be liked, as said before. I know there's certain other people in this fandom that just can't stand the idea that these fictional characters might have done ethically reprehensible actions among whatever good actions they've also made, which puzzles me given the type of game it is and the kind of content its had in the past. I don't really care that much about "punishing" bad characters, however you define badness. I just do what my characters would do.
To finish off this incomprehensible post of mine, I think people are just people, and they will do what people do.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jul 8, 2021 7:15:33 GMT
Well, my personal code is pretty rigid, but I don't subscribe to the notion of "moral purity" at all. I mention Loghain and Calpurnia because, to me, their actions are so beyond anything that could ever be excusable (participating in slavery and supporting a genocidal maniac in his quest to achieve apotheosis, respectively).
Individual murders, thefts, etc, I judge case-by-case, but there is simply no justifiable excuse for the utter violation that is slavery. There's no sympathetic motivation for enslaving others, it is never necessary, and never will be.
I do not, for instance, blame Zevran, or consider him to be evil due to being a professional murderer, because he is a product of circumstances. Practically speaking, he had little or no other option. If I recall correctly, he was in fact *sold* to the crows. Plus, I don't know why those people were assassinated, could be they deserved it.
My problem with Calpurnia, as with so many other BioWare characters is that her actions *actively conflict with what we're told she is*. The show and the tell don't just not match up, they completely oppose each other. If she was hunting down slavers and slave owners and killing them and freeing their slaves, I would have no qualms. But she's not, she's working with a man who explicitly seeks to enslave the whole world, yet claims to oppose slavery. So what the fuck did she think would happen when/if Corypheus succeeded in attaining godhood?
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Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
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Post by Unicephalon 40-D on Jul 8, 2021 7:49:24 GMT
I'm a programmer of mainframes in COBOL. That makes me as qualified to comment on specific game programming as being an accountant would make one qualified to advise Denmark on how best to defeat England in the Euro 2020 Semifinals today. I have nothing else to add here but; Ohh. Cobol!
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Post by fairdragon on Jul 8, 2021 10:43:00 GMT
I hope you don't mind that I grouped all these responses together, fairdragon. As for understanding, I think I'm doing pretty well but wherever I don't is probably more my fault than yours. I KNOW that your English is far better than my <Enter other human language here>. Thanks for your sweet reply. And no problem do what is the best in your opinon. then you would need 432 (72*6) different conversation points selected Thats what I feared. So you need many different times for the same point. That is difficult. I understand. The bridges was an example from DA:O not a suggestion from me. I know . That was more of a statement. labeled something like 'Listen to Thom Ranier' Not what i want. Expensive in that each additional Companion requires both writing zots (How would Sera comment on a Dalish elf Inq differ from Solas'? How about Iron Bull?) and several lines (question, one of three Inq answers, one of three different responses by the questioner). Okay,I would approach the matter differently. Le't me show you from a writer perseptive. We got ... lines. We want the Inq to react to (let's say) 4. So i would choose 4 banter (let's say) 1. Vivien and cole 2. Blackwall and Iron bull 3. Solas and Cole 4. Varric and Cassandra. I choose between adding the inq or replacing someone with the inq. adding I go 3 - 4 linies extra for the Inq and 3 linies for one of the Characters. replacing I got 2 linies for the Inq and 2 linies for the interlocutor. And this linie i would make the other banter shorter and than you fine. There's already a cutscene created to initiate Cassandra's request to locate the Seekers. All my thought would do is shift the trigger from Player clicks on Cassandra in Skyhold and she has a high enough approval state, to Player enters Skyhold and Cassandara has the appropriate approval rate. There would be some more expense in the more roundabout Companions but 1: I would keep this smallish, not in every Companion interaction and 2: It would better define the Companion character by comparison. You right.
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Post by fairdragon on Jul 8, 2021 10:59:06 GMT
Expensive in that each additional Companion requires both writing zots (How would Sera comment on a Dalish elf Inq differ from Solas'? How about Iron Bull?) and several lines (question, one of three Inq answers, one of three different responses by the questioner). Okay,I would approach the matter differently. Le't me show you from a writer perseptive. We got ... lines. We want the Inq to react to (let's say) 4. So i would choose 4 banter (let's say) 1. Vivien and cole 2. Blackwall and Iron bull 3. Solas and Cole 4. Varric and Cassandra. I choose between adding the inq or replacing someone with the inq. adding I go 3 - 4 linies extra for the Inq and 3 linies for one of the Characters. replacing I got 2 linies for the Inq and 2 linies for the interlocutor. And this linie i would make the other banter shorter and than you fine. In which it always depends on the working time, which VA and other things.
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Post by fairdragon on Jul 8, 2021 11:36:36 GMT
I had to go back and play the introduction to jog my memory a little. Expensive in that each additional Companion requires both writing zots (How would Sera comment on a Dalish elf Inq differ from Solas'? How about Iron Bull?) and several lines (question, one of three Inq answers, one of three different responses by the questioner). Also, one thing I remember from the official boards and David Gaider from long ago is that there's really not any comparison between visual art assets and dialogue assets. As he said it, you can't just take a 3D modeller and make her a writer or put a level designer in charge of voice direction. These things have budgets that are largely set well before the game begins actual production. I found a banter. Dorian: So what's your estimation, Varric? Think we could win? Varric: You aren't asking me to give odds on our beloved Inquisitor's success! Dorian: What would that look like? Three to one? (laughs.) Varric: In his/her favor? Dorian: After Corypheus pulled an archdemon out of his arse, are you joking? Inquisitor: You would actually bet against me? Dorian: Now now, if I weren't here, it would be five to one at least. (or) Inquisitor: I'll take those odds. Dorian: See? Here's a chance to test your confidence, Varric. (Dorian romanced) Inquisitor: I'll take those odds. Dorian: This is why I adore him so. (or) Inquisitor: Enough, both of you! Varric: I agree. So morally reprehensible to bet against your own side. Dorian: (grunts.) I am a bad man. We'll talk later. (If Inquisitor says nothing) Varric: Brave man. We'll talk later. I never got this banter and take Dorian, Varric and Blackwall most of the time.
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Posts: 920 Likes: 382
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Post by fairdragon on Jul 8, 2021 11:43:19 GMT
I had to go back and play the introduction to jog my memory a little. Expensive in that each additional Companion requires both writing zots (How would Sera comment on a Dalish elf Inq differ from Solas'? How about Iron Bull?) and several lines (question, one of three Inq answers, one of three different responses by the questioner). Also, one thing I remember from the official boards and David Gaider from long ago is that there's really not any comparison between visual art assets and dialogue assets. As he said it, you can't just take a 3D modeller and make her a writer or put a level designer in charge of voice direction. These things have budgets that are largely set well before the game begins actual production. I found a banter. Dorian: So what's your estimation, Varric? Think we could win? Varric: You aren't asking me to give odds on our beloved Inquisitor's success! Dorian: What would that look like? Three to one? (laughs.) Varric: In his/her favor? Dorian: After Corypheus pulled an archdemon out of his arse, are you joking? Inquisitor: You would actually bet against me? Dorian: Now now, if I weren't here, it would be five to one at least. (or) Inquisitor: I'll take those odds. Dorian: See? Here's a chance to test your confidence, Varric. (Dorian romanced) Inquisitor: I'll take those odds. Dorian: This is why I adore him so. (or) Inquisitor: Enough, both of you! Varric: I agree. So morally reprehensible to bet against your own side. Dorian: (grunts.) I am a bad man. We'll talk later. (If Inquisitor says nothing) Varric: Brave man. We'll talk later. I never got this banter and take Dorian, Varric and Blackwall most of the time. You are right. If they were better placed, there might be enough of them.
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