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Biotic Booty
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Post by dmc1001 on Oct 31, 2016 22:18:24 GMT
That's the point- he was a Spectre (ok, you can refuse to be reinstated in ME2, kinda dumb, but whatever) and if you played your cards right he had everything he needed to launch the resistance on his own and certainly to match anything the Alliance or even the Council might throw at him. ME3 shouldn't have been about you running errands to get everybody to join the Alliance. It should've been about getting everyone to join you. That would have made the game even more about a "Space Jesus" though. I liked that Shepard came to a conclusion that, even though he/she was a spectre, he/she needed something bigger than himself/herself (i.e. the Alliance) to get the job done. I would have liked to see an option for Shepard to have also brought Cerberus on board and the Reapers (and indoctrinated variants) be the only consistent enemies in the game. The link below is a brief description of the Twelfth Labor of Heracles, i.e. capturing Cerberus and bringing him out of the underworld unarmed). I wouldn't be on board with recruiting Cerberus. Sorry, but after everything I saw in ME1, it was clear to me that Cerberus were NOT the good guys in any sense of the word. They were already creating husks back then, making them no better than the geth. I think what we did get - certain Cerberus people defecting - was the right balance. But it should be no surprise that TIM "perfected" indoctrination and huskification between ME1 and ME3. (Parentheses are because he was also indoctrinated by ME3 and was somewhat a Reaper tool, though I don't think that applied to Henry Lawson; hence why the Reapers attacked Horizon.)
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dmc1001
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by dmc1001 on Oct 31, 2016 22:25:27 GMT
That would have made the game even more about a "Space Jesus" though. I liked that Shepard came to a conclusion that, even though he/she was a spectre, he/she needed something bigger than himself/herself (i.e. the Alliance) to get the job done. I disagree. Shepard is only Space Jesus if the story specifically makes him so. It depends on what you highlight. Having everyone tell you how special you are, how only you can defeat the enemy, how you're the Chosen One and have a destiny, yeah that shit can get old. But if you're merely the only one who's actually doing something, that's a little different. Given you die for their sins in ME2 and get brought back, it's a little hard to avoid Space Jesusness now, but you can still downplay it while being what the galaxy needs you to be- the one man who actually stands up to the Reapers, teaches you to fight them and smashes the metal motherfuckers to dust. They want to cast the Reapers as Skynet, fine, let us be John Connor. Not a god, just a hero, but one who leads and acts of his own initiative, not a simple errand boy. And why should the Alliance be the thing greater than himself? The Earth focus was entirely wrong I think. Earth is no more or less important than any other homeworld. Earth was a major target because the Reapers noted that a) his specific actions led to the defeat of Sovereign and his specific actions led to the defeat of the Collectors. He accomplished something no one else had done before. He had a strength or resolve and charisma that wasn't present in prior cycles. Admittedly, it would have all been a fail had the Protheans not created the Conduit since without that the Reapers would have invaded during ME1. Still, he took advantage of what was present WHEN NO ONE ELSE DID (except TIM, but he was too selfish, and eventually indoctrinated, to make the needed headway).
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2016 23:29:26 GMT
That would have made the game even more about a "Space Jesus" though. I liked that Shepard came to a conclusion that, even though he/she was a spectre, he/she needed something bigger than himself/herself (i.e. the Alliance) to get the job done. I would have liked to see an option for Shepard to have also brought Cerberus on board and the Reapers (and indoctrinated variants) be the only consistent enemies in the game. The link below is a brief description of the Twelfth Labor of Heracles, i.e. capturing Cerberus and bringing him out of the underworld unarmed). I wouldn't be on board with recruiting Cerberus. Sorry, but after everything I saw in ME1, it was clear to me that Cerberus were NOT the good guys in any sense of the word. They were already creating husks back then, making them no better than the geth. I think what we did get - certain Cerberus people defecting - was the right balance. But it should be no surprise that TIM "perfected" indoctrination and huskification between ME1 and ME3. (Parentheses are because he was also indoctrinated by ME3 and was somewhat a Reaper tool, though I don't think that applied to Henry Lawson; hence why the Reapers attacked Horizon.) I'm was talking about having the option to recruit them... not expecting everyone to do so... and there was an option to "redeem" and recruit the geth. If recruiting them had been an option, then I would have also expected that some other changes to how the game flowed would have been made as well... but the game was written how it was written... so my "suggestion" is as moot as any other.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Nov 1, 2016 0:49:33 GMT
I'm pretty sure straykat was saying Kaidan would be a Spectre and hunt down the rogue Shepard. lol, I guess a nuke isn't certain death enough for some people. But that's not necessarily true at any rate. Teh VS only becomes a Spectre because Udina makes councilor then needs a political puppet to cover his ass in the coup. A weakened Cerberus might not have the leverage to urge Udina to go through with it as it currently happens. Still, having the VS come after you and being able to turn them to your side (or shoot them) would be interesting. A few steps up from the existing confrontation, but they could've done more with it. Earth was a major target because the Reapers noted that a) his specific actions led to the defeat of Sovereign and his specific actions led to the defeat of the Collectors. He accomplished something no one else had done before. He had a strength or resolve and charisma that wasn't present in prior cycles. Admittedly, it would have all been a fail had the Protheans not created the Conduit since without that the Reapers would have invaded during ME1. Still, he took advantage of what was present WHEN NO ONE ELSE DID (except TIM, but he was too selfish, and eventually indoctrinated, to make the needed headway). I understand why the Reapers beelined it for Earth. I don't understand why the rest of us should care- that is make it the focus of the whole war. Earth is just one world, of many. Yes, I know it's home but the entire galaxy's at stake. We need to think big picture.
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Post by straykat on Nov 1, 2016 8:52:11 GMT
I'm pretty sure straykat was saying Kaidan would be a Spectre and hunt down the rogue Shepard. lol, I guess a nuke isn't certain death enough for some people. But that's not necessarily true at any rate. Teh VS only becomes a Spectre because Udina makes councilor then needs a political puppet to cover his ass in the coup. A weakened Cerberus might not have the leverage to urge Udina to go through with it as it currently happens. Still, having the VS come after you and being able to turn them to your side (or shoot them) would be interesting. A few steps up from the existing confrontation, but they could've done more with it. Earth was a major target because the Reapers noted that a) his specific actions led to the defeat of Sovereign and his specific actions led to the defeat of the Collectors. He accomplished something no one else had done before. He had a strength or resolve and charisma that wasn't present in prior cycles. Admittedly, it would have all been a fail had the Protheans not created the Conduit since without that the Reapers would have invaded during ME1. Still, he took advantage of what was present WHEN NO ONE ELSE DID (except TIM, but he was too selfish, and eventually indoctrinated, to make the needed headway). I understand why the Reapers beelined it for Earth. I don't understand why the rest of us should care- that is make it the focus of the whole war. Earth is just one world, of many. Yes, I know it's home but the entire galaxy's at stake. We need to think big picture. It's just symbolism. First game starts with calamity on Eden Prime, second calamity spread across many colonies.. third is Earth itself. It makes a certain kind of literary sense. I've said before that all 3 games are kind repeating the same themes.. but in different guises. It's like the movie Groundhog Day. Shepard is always experiencing something that slightly resembles a previous quest in the last game. Not just Earth and Colonies. Sanctum itself (since the thread is about this) kind of reminds me of Noveria.. and Liara's mommy issues are like Miranda's daddy issues. Even down to getting the location of the Cerberus base.. it's similar to getting the Mu-Relay and location of Ilos.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Nov 1, 2016 15:39:34 GMT
It's just symbolism. First game starts with calamity on Eden Prime, second calamity spread across many colonies.. third is Earth itself. It makes a certain kind of literary sense. I've said before that all 3 games are kind repeating the same themes.. but in different guises. It's like the movie Groundhog Day. Shepard is always experiencing something that slightly resembles a previous quest in the last game. Not just Earth and Colonies. Sanctum itself (since the thread is about this) kind of reminds me of Noveria.. and Liara's mommy issues are like Miranda's daddy issues. Even down to getting the location of the Cerberus base.. it's similar to getting the Mu-Relay and location of Ilos. While repetition is to be expected (for reasons less charitable than deliberate symbolism), I kind of think this is stretching it, quite a bit. Especially on the Liara- Miranda idea. A wise, public figure asari known to work for her species advancement, estranged from her daughter and amused at her choice in career is similar to a megalomaniac businessman, possibly a pervert, that's only interested in his legacy and used to controlling every little detail of his "daughters" down to their very DNA? No, I don't believe they're the same at all, apart from a very superficial "not a happy parent-child relationship" way. And even if we say you're right, this isn't the kind of story where symbolism can override logic and common sense. That's one of many reasons the endings are a mess. We enact galaxy wide change by... shooting a tube (and walking towards it like an idiot)? Jumping into a beam? Symbolism is all well and good but in a story lie this that expects to be a fairly what you see is what you get military sci-fi, symbolism has no place trying to justify something that just plain "don't make no sense".
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Post by straykat on Nov 1, 2016 16:46:41 GMT
It's just symbolism. First game starts with calamity on Eden Prime, second calamity spread across many colonies.. third is Earth itself. It makes a certain kind of literary sense. I've said before that all 3 games are kind repeating the same themes.. but in different guises. It's like the movie Groundhog Day. Shepard is always experiencing something that slightly resembles a previous quest in the last game. Not just Earth and Colonies. Sanctum itself (since the thread is about this) kind of reminds me of Noveria.. and Liara's mommy issues are like Miranda's daddy issues. Even down to getting the location of the Cerberus base.. it's similar to getting the Mu-Relay and location of Ilos. While repetition is to be expected (for reasons less charitable than deliberate symbolism), I kind of think this is stretching it, quite a bit. Especially on the Liara- Miranda idea. A wise, public figure asari known to work for her species advancement, estranged from her daughter and amused at her choice in career is similar to a megalomaniac businessman, possibly a pervert, that's only interested in his legacy and used to controlling every little detail of his "daughters" down to their very DNA? No, I don't believe they're the same at all, apart from a very superficial "not a happy parent-child relationship" way. And even if we say you're right, this isn't the kind of story where symbolism can override logic and common sense. That's one of many reasons the endings are a mess. We enact galaxy wide change by... shooting a tube (and walking towards it like an idiot)? Jumping into a beam? Symbolism is all well and good but in a story lie this that expects to be a fairly what you see is what you get military sci-fi, symbolism has no place trying to justify something that just plain "don't make no sense". Are you that averse to Liara that this taints it somehow? Don't fight it. I didn't say they were exactly the same anyways. We're talking abstracts. Freak laboratory experiments, estranged parent working for the villain, discovery of location for the hidden villain base. It's no different than saying the beam at Ilos and shooting through Omega relay and the beam at the end run for Priority Earth have similarities. I'm not saying Liara and Miranda are that similar themselves, if that's what you're afraid of. They're all individuals. If anything, I think Jack and Liara have more interesting personal parallels. Where Liara is sort of a symbol of Control (especially later as the Broker) and tries to sway you towards Citadel friendly behavior. And Jack is an avatar of Destroy, where you're in Liara's role trying to sway her morally to soften up. Both are rescued in similar ways too, being in a form of stasis.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Nov 1, 2016 17:27:34 GMT
Are you that averse to Liara that this taints it somehow? Don't fight it. I didn't say they were exactly the same anyways. We're talking abstracts. Freak laboratory experiments, estranged parent working for the villain, discovery of location for the hidden villain base. It's no different than saying the beam at Ilos and shooting through Omega relay and the beam at the end run for Priority Earth have similarities. I'm not saying Liara and Miranda are that similar themselves, if that's what you're afraid of. They're all individuals. If anything, I think Jack and Liara have more interesting personal parallels. Where Liara is sort of a symbol of Control (especially later as the Broker) and tries to sway you towards Citadel friendly behavior. And Jack is an avatar of Destroy, where you're in Liara's role trying to sway her morally to soften up. Both are rescued in similar ways too, being in a form of stasis. I'm not averse to Liara at all. But her relationship with Benezia just doesn't compare to that of the Lawsons, nor does Benezia's character to that of Henry Lawson. Any similarities are mostly surface and circumstance, unlike teh beam runs which are literally running to be teleported onto the Citadel in order to enact the endgame in both cases.
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Post by straykat on Nov 1, 2016 18:14:59 GMT
Are you that averse to Liara that this taints it somehow? Don't fight it. I didn't say they were exactly the same anyways. We're talking abstracts. Freak laboratory experiments, estranged parent working for the villain, discovery of location for the hidden villain base. It's no different than saying the beam at Ilos and shooting through Omega relay and the beam at the end run for Priority Earth have similarities. I'm not saying Liara and Miranda are that similar themselves, if that's what you're afraid of. They're all individuals. If anything, I think Jack and Liara have more interesting personal parallels. Where Liara is sort of a symbol of Control (especially later as the Broker) and tries to sway you towards Citadel friendly behavior. And Jack is an avatar of Destroy, where you're in Liara's role trying to sway her morally to soften up. Both are rescued in similar ways too, being in a form of stasis. I'm not averse to Liara at all. But her relationship with Benezia just doesn't compare to that of the Lawsons, nor does Benezia's character to that of Henry Lawson. Any similarities are mostly surface and circumstance, unlike teh beam runs which are literally running to be teleported onto the Citadel in order to enact the endgame in both cases. You're willfully ignoring the structural similarities in one case, while acknowledging them in another. And they are NOT surface.. If they were surface similarities, then you'd have even more parallels. I'm not being a literalist about it. I said symbols and abstracts. Which is very loose and outline based. I'm offering the more mild view. If there was a literal similarity, it's with Ash... both long haired brunettes advocating their brand of xenophobic loyalties... both on Horizon. What I'm saying is there's bits and pieces of each story in the other titles.. but they're not always in the same place. It's just vaguely familiar, sometimes with the details or characters changing. EDIT: In any case! I don't really care to derail about this. My only point was that establishing Earth as the area of calamity makes some sense, for the reasons I stated. Although I still wish they'd gone with a more rogue Shep in 3, where we weren't necessarily with the Alliance.. as we were speaking about the other day.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Nov 2, 2016 3:23:30 GMT
You're willfully ignoring the structural similarities in one case, while acknowledging them in another. And they are NOT surface.. If they were surface similarities, then you'd have even more parallels. I'm not being a literalist about it. I said symbols and abstracts. Which is very loose and outline based. I'm offering the more mild view. If there was a literal similarity, it's with Ash... both long haired brunettes advocating their brand of xenophobic loyalties... both on Horizon. What I'm saying is there's bits and pieces of each story in the other titles.. but they're not always in the same place. It's just vaguely familiar, sometimes with the details or characters changing. EDIT: In any case! I don't really care to derail about this. My only point was that establishing Earth as the area of calamity makes some sense, for the reasons I stated. Although I still wish they'd gone with a more rogue Shep in 3, where we weren't necessarily with the Alliance.. as we were speaking about the other day. They are surface- there is nothing intrinsic to the character of Benezia or her relationship to Liara that correlates to something intrinsic to the character of Lawson or his relationship to Miranda. All you have is dead parents on the way to the real enemy. For every similarity you point out there's at least one dissimilarity, if not more. You fight Benezia, you don't fight Lawson, Benezia is Saren's 2IC, Lawson isn't TIM's, at best it's a strategic temporary partnership, Benezia is indoctrinated (aka fighting you against her will), Lawson isn't. Shepard's mission to Noveria is after a specific end goal (Mu Relay), Shepard's mission to Horizon is a fishing expedition. Do some similarities exist in the framing of the situations? Sure. But why do they matter again? Neither Ashley, nor Miranda are xenophobic. Ash's remarks may not be the most sensitive but she is referring to a real human trait- we tend to favor like over different. She doesn't go "fuck the aliens", she says in a crisis, you'd pick your own kind over an alien, most of the time. I don't think that's even racism, let alone xenophobia. As for Miranda, she flat out decries people who join Cerberus because xenophobia. Her goal is human advancement, she wants to make a positive improvement to her species. That doesn't mean she hates aliens. She envies the STG for their operational freedom, remember? As for Earth, my primary problem is that again, symbolism shouldn't overrule logic in a franchise like this. In a fairy tale, or even some fantasy, sure, depending on the situation. But realistically, the good guys focusing on Earth is dumb. I'm also not sure about your progression any way. We don't start at one point and steadily move towards Earth, throughout the trilogy. If anything we got further away. In ME1 we stayed in Council space, closer to Earth. In ME3 we moved to the Terminus systems, farther away. Now we're going back? Regardless it's not a point I'll lean on strongly. Practicality and common sense should still come first.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by aoibhealfae on Nov 2, 2016 4:54:04 GMT
Wasn't the entirety of ME2 are just one big set of data collection, observations and experiments conducted by Cerberus. TIM entrusted Henry Lawson to find ways to study and control the reapers. Cerberus created an Auschwitz and capitalizing on a refugee crisis.
... you really can't blame Shepard for that especially when Shepard is a walking Cerberus experiment called Lazarus.
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Post by themikefest on Nov 2, 2016 11:59:18 GMT
I don't agree about Shepard being partially to blame for Sanctuary.
With Earth. Earth is the greatest planet in the universe and is home to the greatest species in the universe. All my Shepard's know to help Earth is to help the other species. At the beginning of the game, Anderson stays behind. For nearly the entire game, Shepard helps the other species solve whatever. The Citadel is taken to Earth. So the final battle ends up being there.
What would of happened if the Citadel was taken to....say, Thessia? How would that play out? It can't because Anderson isn't there. There wouldn't be that touchy-feely scene.
Me personally. I would've left the Citadel where it was. It would've made the final battle interesting
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Post by ravenous on Nov 15, 2016 17:18:19 GMT
Shepard was not to blame for Sanctuary at all and if you think that shepard was in command of the Normandy in ME2 then that is just wrong, Cerberus let him think he was in control. Miranda and EDI was both loyal and shackled to TIM, while they was on the derelict reaper EDI who was still under Cerberus control could have secretly scanned the computers etc and get all the records of the now dead crew on the ship and sent it to TIM
About Earth I do not like the fact that Earth is the center of the universe the most important planet, I always find that really annoying. There are a lot of games that have Earth as the most important planet and every time I hear that I just want roll my eyes and sigh because that is not true at all and shouldn't be true all the time in movies/games on earth being the most important and or center of the universe
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