Sandetiger
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Post by Sandetiger on Nov 22, 2023 1:36:54 GMT
because they are the writers go to bad factions and Cerberus is an idea. To be entirely fair, Cerberus was apparently Mac Walters' brainchild. Mac is no longer at BioWare, let alone involved in the development of Mass Effect, so that influence re: Cerberus as a writing element is no longer present. For better or for worse, ymmv.
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Post by themikefest on Nov 22, 2023 2:00:47 GMT
By the goddess, I hope they don’t involve Cerberus in any way, shape, or form in this. They have been so overused. Plus why would anyone bring them back after they supported the Reapers? One of the reason's why MEA failed was because Cerberus wasn't in the game. Cerberus is Mass Effect. Without them, the reapers would have harvested the galaxy. They didn't support the reapers. They were indoctrinated. They were doing the reapers bidding. Dumb dumb even says as much by saying it controls TIM. They need to return to their former glory from ME2. ALL HAIL TIM
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Post by lavigne on Nov 22, 2023 2:08:58 GMT
I have no particular preference re Cerberus either way, I'd just be surprised if they don't feature in the new game. They're just too convenient a plot device to give up.
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Post by Phantom on Nov 22, 2023 2:14:04 GMT
because they are the writers go to bad factions and Cerberus is an idea. To be entirely fair, Cerberus was apparently Mac Walters' brainchild. Mac is no longer at BioWare, let alone involved in the development of Mass Effect, so that influence re: Cerberus as a writing element is no longer present. For better or for worse, ymmv. Well do you realize how many fans for good or ill is drawn to Cerberus. For example, my username Phantom is for my love/hate relationship with the Cerberus Phantom NPC. Of course, I would giggle like a retard on laughing gas if Bioware had a Cerberus Phantom as a Playable Character doubly so if that character had a good story. I will not be surprised that themikefest would say something in the line of having his Cerberus Gymnast character to join forces with my Cerberus Phantom character. *kartwheels away*
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Post by SwobyJ on Nov 22, 2023 15:56:03 GMT
I don't doubt that Cerberus has something to do with the next game, even if its only in relation to some background lore in text entries, though I'd predict more than that.
If its Milky Way and takes note of humanity's history, sorry, since ME2 Cerberus has a place in that.
What I'm far more uncertain of is them, in any form, having a prominent role in the plot and major characters.
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Post by helios969 on Nov 25, 2023 14:42:30 GMT
By the goddess, I hope they don’t involve Cerberus in any way, shape, or form in this. They have been so overused. Plus why would anyone bring them back after they supported the Reapers? One of the reason's why MEA failed was because Cerberus wasn't in the game. Cerberus is Mass Effect. Without them, the reapers would have harvested the galaxy. They didn't support the reapers. They were indoctrinated. They were doing the reapers bidding. Dumb dumb even says as much by saying it controls TIM. They need to return to their former glory from ME2. ALL HAIL TIM But...can Cerberus exist without TIM? It's hard to imagine any character Bioware might come up with having the force of personality and ruthlessly focused drive to replace him. I kind of think TIM is Cerberus. Maybe he figured out how to do a consciousness download to be dropped in a cloned body at a later date...a failsafe he put into place if his plan to control the Reapers failed.
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Post by themikefest on Nov 25, 2023 15:17:45 GMT
One of the reason's why MEA failed was because Cerberus wasn't in the game. Cerberus is Mass Effect. Without them, the reapers would have harvested the galaxy. They didn't support the reapers. They were indoctrinated. They were doing the reapers bidding. Dumb dumb even says as much by saying it controls TIM. They need to return to their former glory from ME2. ALL HAIL TIM But...can Cerberus exist without TIM? It's hard to imagine any character Bioware might come up with having the force of personality and ruthlessly focused drive to replace him. I kind of think TIM is Cerberus. Maybe he figured out how to do a consciousness download to be dropped in a cloned body at a later date...a failsafe he put into place if his plan to control the Reapers failed. In Andromeda, Cora will become The Illusive Woman(TIW). Cerberus will rule Andromeda. In the Milky Way, TIM will return. How so? Simple. The guy did say the details have changed over time. He also has changed the story at least once. The TIM Shepard encounters on the Citadel was a clone. The real TIM is in hiding. ME4 will feature the rebuilding of Cerberus to their former glory they experienced in ME2.
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Post by Croatsky on Nov 30, 2023 7:27:50 GMT
I don't doubt that Cerberus has something to do with the next game, even if its only in relation to some background lore in text entries, though I'd predict more than that. If its Milky Way and takes note of humanity's history, sorry, since ME2 Cerberus has a place in that. What I'm far more uncertain of is them, in any form, having a prominent role in the plot and major characters. More likely, and preferably, Systems Alliance( or successor new Earth government) will follow Cerberus-like pro-humanity ideology. Which would be cool, especially if they actually explore this ideology instead of just vague shit TIM spewed in ME2 and ME3.
You can kill a man and even an organization, but not an idea. But this time this statement can be earned.
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Post by SwobyJ on Nov 30, 2023 17:44:36 GMT
I don't doubt that Cerberus has something to do with the next game, even if its only in relation to some background lore in text entries, though I'd predict more than that. If its Milky Way and takes note of humanity's history, sorry, since ME2 Cerberus has a place in that. What I'm far more uncertain of is them, in any form, having a prominent role in the plot and major characters. More likely, and preferably, Systems Alliance( or successor new Earth government) will follow Cerberus-like pro-humanity ideology. Which would be cool, especially if they actually explore this ideology instead of just vague shit TIM spewed in ME2 and ME3.
You can kill a man and even an organization, but not an idea. But this time this statement can be earned.
That is actually one thing I was implying by 'background lore in text entries'. I didn't just mean old history, but newer history of timelines, logs, of Cerberus remnants, or the chain of those influenced by Cerberus, influencing the future of the Alliance. TIM in ME2-3 can be kept entirely canon, but the context was that the implants were starting to get rather hardcore on his mentality by then, eventually totally obvious at the end of ME3. But there's the gap between the origins comic and meeting him in ME2, and there's going to be a gap between his death and whatever's next. I don't see the concept of Cerberus being ignored, I just don't know if its going to be as minimal as a couple text mentions (somehow), or they'll be elevated as basically the full (not practically; over 50% of enemy units in ME3 was or seemed to be Cerberus) antagonist (somehow). Personally I'd hate either extreme. I'm with you in preferring that elements of Cerberus ideology seep back into the Alliance post-war after the effects of known events and the added new events to the timeline. Things that have humanity retreating, even if the relationships with the rest of the galaxy are more complicated than before. Earthexit in the midst of wide interspecies cohabitation.
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Post by Croatsky on Nov 30, 2023 20:13:55 GMT
More likely, and preferably, Systems Alliance( or successor new Earth government) will follow Cerberus-like pro-humanity ideology. Which would be cool, especially if they actually explore this ideology instead of just vague shit TIM spewed in ME2 and ME3.
You can kill a man and even an organization, but not an idea. But this time this statement can be earned.
That is actually one thing I was implying by 'background lore in text entries'. I didn't just mean old history, but newer history of timelines, logs, of Cerberus remnants, or the chain of those influenced by Cerberus, influencing the future of the Alliance. TIM in ME2-3 can be kept entirely canon, but the context was that the implants were starting to get rather hardcore on his mentality by then, eventually totally obvious at the end of ME3. But there's the gap between the origins comic and meeting him in ME2, and there's going to be a gap between his death and whatever's next. I don't see the concept of Cerberus being ignored, I just don't know if its going to be as minimal as a couple text mentions (somehow), or they'll be elevated as basically the full (not practically; over 50% of enemy units in ME3 was or seemed to be Cerberus) antagonist (somehow). Personally I'd hate either extreme. I'm with you in preferring that elements of Cerberus ideology seep back into the Alliance post-war after the effects of known events and the added new events to the timeline. Things that have humanity retreating, even if the relationships with the rest of the galaxy are more complicated than before. Earthexit in the midst of wide interspecies cohabitation. It's less Earthexit( that's Terra Firma thing) and more Humanity Rules the Space that I have in mind.
Terra Firma wants to isolate Earth from entire galaxy, including other human colonies, while Cerberus wants human dominance of galactic affairs. This is the only ideological distinction we got with Cerberus and it mainly comes from the books.
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Post by SwobyJ on Nov 30, 2023 21:12:43 GMT
Maybe something will live on, but I don't see the Systems Alliance (or a secret cabal within it) going ME2-ME3 Cerberus. Maybe yeah, broadly ideologically something of that may very well continue, and I think it will, but the ME2-ME3 approach hard to do if we see Earth and Alliance planets with a much larger and deeper alien involvement than before. Earth getting high up non-human leaders, etc, I think may very well happen - something the trilogy suggests Cerberus was actively though quietly keeping from even suggesting happening any time soon.
That's why I said Earthexit (only a turn of phrase, I am not outright equating to Brexit in any way) - something that most humans might be convinced to support as a supposed practicality, but for certain radicals it theoretically allows an opportunity to establish human dominance over at least 'their own' worlds. They can't do Terra Firma, but they could accomplish the next best thing, with much greater assets. The dramatic video game story would be like Alliance worlds undergoing a lockdown for their supposed own good, but compromised higher ups permit fascistic actions against aliens within the lockdown, and more aggressive actions against aliens outside Alliance territory. A continuance of Omega DLC tactics, but wider scale, using the Alliance, while thankfully more vulnerable at being internally corrected (unless things get SO dramatic that we see the Alliance heads assassinated etc). Which would be Cerberus implicitly living on even if they don't use the name - if it wasn't for the ever tightening timescale of the Arrival of the Reapers, Shepard's protagonism happening to mess up Cerberus assets one way or another, and the further erraticism of Harper personally, I'm certain TIM would have just continued to worm into the Alliance until his desires and the organization's agenda would have become one and the same, and he could feel he could much more easily puppetmaster the Alliance into any direction that allows dominance over Reaper tech.
Honestly I think this can happen just as I half expect Dragon Age to have the Wardens more outright compromised instead of it being passed off as the Orlais branch. I don't think we'll be leaving the story of humanity causing its hubris, because its a useful counterpoint to the otherwise human narrative of us ascending into more power and influence through success. There may be a lot of shift in direction, but I find it hard to believe the direction won't include elements in human society that just will *not* share, and will use Cerberus-like ideology and tactics to accomplish their goals. Just not sure how much of that will be explicitly 'Cerberus'.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Nov 30, 2023 22:01:44 GMT
That is actually one thing I was implying by 'background lore in text entries'. I didn't just mean old history, but newer history of timelines, logs, of Cerberus remnants, or the chain of those influenced by Cerberus, influencing the future of the Alliance. TIM in ME2-3 can be kept entirely canon, but the context was that the implants were starting to get rather hardcore on his mentality by then, eventually totally obvious at the end of ME3. But there's the gap between the origins comic and meeting him in ME2, and there's going to be a gap between his death and whatever's next. I don't see the concept of Cerberus being ignored, I just don't know if its going to be as minimal as a couple text mentions (somehow), or they'll be elevated as basically the full (not practically; over 50% of enemy units in ME3 was or seemed to be Cerberus) antagonist (somehow). Personally I'd hate either extreme. I'm with you in preferring that elements of Cerberus ideology seep back into the Alliance post-war after the effects of known events and the added new events to the timeline. Things that have humanity retreating, even if the relationships with the rest of the galaxy are more complicated than before. Earthexit in the midst of wide interspecies cohabitation. It's less Earthexit( that's Terra Firma thing) and more Humanity Rules the Space that I have in mind.
Terra Firma wants to isolate Earth from entire galaxy, including other human colonies, while Cerberus wants human dominance of galactic affairs. This is the only ideological distinction we got with Cerberus and it mainly comes from the books. So you want humanity to be the villains?
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Post by SwobyJ on Nov 30, 2023 22:54:47 GMT
(Personally)
I wouldn't mind Humanity being the villains just as the Krogan (killing billions?) were and Geth (killing billions) and Quarians (made the things that killed billions and created risk of them killing billions more) were. That is, they do a lot of really, really, unforgivably bad things, that one day it'd still be best if a way was found for them to be forgiven, with enough atonement. And I guess keep the scale of things smaller so it doesn't take like, centuries, and have humans immediately be a part of the solution in fixing this issue.
But really I could be really into one game ... and likely just one ... where all the 4 Council species get ALL their dirty laundry out, and all are forced by circumstances, the protagonist, and the other species to face their demons and their slide into their worst cultural tendencies before something pulls everyone from the precipice of a near-Reaper-Cycle damaging galactic conflict.
Get into the nitty gritty of humanity's supremacist streak, and protective xenophobia. Understand that ideologies don't die just from the death of one man and one organization. Get into Asari history and secret policies coming back to bite them. Resurrect the lore of asari rather... magical mindflayer-lite capacity over others. Get into the Turian tribalism, having never actually left entirely, and put them through a period where its terribly resurfaced and even worsened in new context. Get into Salarians' more avid willingness to research and develop the most drastic of solutions in order to fulfill desired logical outcomes. Have them get into these problems relatively quickly (not years but perhaps decades to short centuries of setup) so that its too overwhelming of a change that can be eased away. Fall of the Republic vibes.
For Andromedans, get many in MW mad at the people from there for 'bringing your problems over here', while Andromedans (Nexus Council and otherwise) may also be able to provide some help in assisting the galaxy in getting along again. Bonus points if its the Krogan, Geth, and Quarians that do a lot on the more helpful side too, at least on balance. Ha.
Really I just want the shine to come off the long-standing leaders, and I don't feel like the shock of the Reaper War should be enough. I didn't like how much the MET was more on an automatic 'Military good' and 'Established powers good enough' while only barely coming up by the end with notes that 'Some non-military entities also good' and 'The downtrodden also deserve something of a seat at the table I guess'. The Asari are simply enlightened or otherwise annoying, and that's about it. The Turians got over their stuff long ago, big deal, and they were kinda right about the Krogan! The Salarians didn't have to face full consequences of actions because it was the Turians who initiated the Genophage, more or less. Overall, they're the goodies on the Council that also happen to be not as goodie as the best of humanity because Go Humanity, and the Bad Humans were mostly Cerberus anyway. So lets put some dirt onto everyone, from material that already exists, let alone new problems.
Of course have the expected Mass Effecty tone, and end the story on some level of plausible hope for the future, but sure. And I think its also a difficult story to do after a trilogy about the galaxy coming together, so I'm not expecting an explosion into Galactic War but instead a whole bunch of smaller conflicts that risk future annihilation if they continue to spin out of control. And personally? I don't really care if it happens to include Reapers or Reaper tech on some level. Its whatever, Reapers are a part of the setting to me, even if I think there should never be another story that's about a central conflict against them. What we haven't had, is the politics of the MW spiraling out of control. They can do the BW thing of some Capitalized Force being a problem too (Blight, Scourge, whatever), but I'm interested in what the powers actually do to each other, being at the forefront.
I don't expect the next game to do anything like this, but I could buy into it if they did. I don't believe in any singular "We're past X" (Unification Wars, early asari history, Cerberus destruction, etc) conflict moment in itself, for a setting. We don't just fix things with the magic wand. I'd appreciate a game that understood that message, while also allowing easy enough RP to inspire us to work hard at improving things anyway. (And yeah, recognize that a magic wand (Crucible) can help with some things too, directly/indirectly. I think expanding the handwavey tech of Crucible would only help in worldbuilding instead of just forgetting it happened.)
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Post by Croatsky on Dec 1, 2023 10:57:26 GMT
It's less Earthexit( that's Terra Firma thing) and more Humanity Rules the Space that I have in mind.
Terra Firma wants to isolate Earth from entire galaxy, including other human colonies, while Cerberus wants human dominance of galactic affairs. This is the only ideological distinction we got with Cerberus and it mainly comes from the books. So you want humanity to be the villains? N7 Day teaser gave me the vibes that N7 Agent is a villain, on top of Liara feeling very negative towards humanity in encrypted audio log.
So it does look like BioWare is heading to that direction.
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Post by SwobyJ on Dec 1, 2023 17:35:17 GMT
ME1 tease gave vibes that we'd answer or deny distress calls and it'd have a substantial effect (it doesn't).
ME2 tease gave vibes that Shepard was dead (they were) and somehow a Geth (a platform in a vague sense was).
ME3 tease - this one is less extreme - gave vibes that Shepard was turning his back to Earth. I've seen more than one theory than that Shepard was rejecting saving Earth, just due to the focus on shadows around them.
MEA tease gave vibes that we're a cowboy N7, but either that was a mislead at the time or they shifted over to being AI young adult with daddy N7 Ryder.
So to twist the current 'vibes' around, N7 agent isn't a villain but either a rival or a fake N7 or whatever. And Humanity isn't a Huge Problem but just increasingly agitating in more recent years/ages enough that Liara has personally had enough of our crap that she has to sweep up. Just one way of looking at it.
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Post by helios969 on Dec 1, 2023 18:01:43 GMT
But...can Cerberus exist without TIM? It's hard to imagine any character Bioware might come up with having the force of personality and ruthlessly focused drive to replace him. I kind of think TIM is Cerberus. Maybe he figured out how to do a consciousness download to be dropped in a cloned body at a later date...a failsafe he put into place if his plan to control the Reapers failed. In Andromeda, Cora will become The Illusive Woman(TIW). Cerberus will rule Andromeda. In the Milky Way, TIM will return. How so? Simple. The guy did say the details have changed over time. He also has changed the story at least once. The TIM Shepard encounters on the Citadel was a clone. The real TIM is in hiding. ME4 will feature the rebuilding of Cerberus to their former glory they experienced in ME2. I don't think Cora is ruthless enough. I would love an Illusive Woman though. I'd like to see a super sultry woman who uses sex as just another tool for manipulation. Whatever pressure point she can lean on to advance Human interest's across the galaxy is fair game.
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Post by Phantom on Dec 1, 2023 21:32:54 GMT
In Andromeda, Cora will become The Illusive Woman(TIW). Cerberus will rule Andromeda. In the Milky Way, TIM will return. How so? Simple. The guy did say the details have changed over time. He also has changed the story at least once. The TIM Shepard encounters on the Citadel was a clone. The real TIM is in hiding. ME4 will feature the rebuilding of Cerberus to their former glory they experienced in ME2. I don't think Cora is ruthless enough. I would love an Illusive Woman though. I'd like to see a super sultry woman who uses sex as just another tool for manipulation. Whatever pressure point she can lean on to advance Human interest's across the galaxy is fair game. well Delilah (one of my fandom characters) could be a potential replacement for T.I.M. Yes she is an super sultry woman will happily use sex as a tool of manipulation. I can go into detail if asked
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Post by themikefest on Dec 1, 2023 23:29:06 GMT
In Andromeda, Cora will become The Illusive Woman(TIW). Cerberus will rule Andromeda. In the Milky Way, TIM will return. How so? Simple. The guy did say the details have changed over time. He also has changed the story at least once. The TIM Shepard encounters on the Citadel was a clone. The real TIM is in hiding. ME4 will feature the rebuilding of Cerberus to their former glory they experienced in ME2. I don't think Cora is ruthless enough. I would love an Illusive Woman though. I'd like to see a super sultry woman who uses sex as just another tool for manipulation. Whatever pressure point she can lean on to advance Human interest's across the galaxy is fair game. She doesn't have to be ruthless. Cunning and charming will do. She will bring Cerberus to the forefront in Andromeda leading to them being a powerhouse. She won't have to worry about being around a lame duck, an Initiative that is a bunch of refugees. In fact it will be Cerberus that will defeat the kett. All Initiative people will go to her knowing she can get stuff done. She is the hero Andromeda needed.
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