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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 8, 2023 8:00:24 GMT
Which yes, are crap, but are also the norm and maybe even tame for most of the other institutions of Thedas. I entirely agree that the Crows are just one shitty organisation among many that exploit the ordinary people for the benefit of the ruling elite. If Solas' plan was simply to nuke the status quo (much like he did with the Evanuris) I'd probably go along with it, although I admit that, as with the elves, it would probably result in a lot of unnecessary bloodshed of ordinary people during the civil strife that followed, with just another equally oppressive and exploitative regime assuming power at the end of it. it is noteworthy that the Wardens themselves have been consistently well liked in the fandom and by the writers, so much so that their actions at Adamant are somewhat regarded as poor writing since the Wardens would never do what they did there...I disagree but still it is out there. My objection to the Warden plot was not that they would not be capable of such action as an organisation because clearly they do regard stopping the Blight as taking precedence over anything else. In fact I do share Solas' view that there must be better ways of dealing with the threat than infecting your recruits with the taint, particularly when the world is not actually in the throws of a Blight, so the justification that this is necessary to destroy the Arch-demon doesn't really apply. What I objected to was the fact that they were all so incredibly stupid that they didn't question why everyone started hearing the Calling, when apparently they knew that the two remaining Arch-demons were still deep underground, and why they immediately trusted Erimond and his idea to head into the Deep Roads to kill them with an "army" of demons. Had this never been suggested in the past if they knew where they were located? Could it be that it had been considered but the impossibility of reaching them with such limited numbers was an impediment to its success? Did they really think that bolstering their numbers with a small number of demons would make any difference? (bearing in mind it would seem only the small number of Warden mages could summon and control them). What did they think would happen if the mage controlling the demon was killed? The main objection to this idea, though, was the fact that, as I say above, they knew they weren't in a Blight because the Arch-demons were still underground, so why the panic? Wardens are constantly hearing the Calling and dying off between Blights and yet somehow the Order has survived down the years. Either send or, better still, travel to Warden HQ to find out if their experience was universal and what their leadership think they should do about it. Instead, they follow the lead of some random dude who just happens to show up and, let's face it, whose demeanor just shrieked untrustworthy. Could they not have had him portrayed as at least giving the impression he was genuinely concerned and having the sort of charm and charisma that could have one them over? This was a problem with a lot of those working with Corypheus; they were generally unlikable or smarmy and it was hard to imagine why people would be taken in by them.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 8, 2023 8:24:21 GMT
This why Zevron betrays the Crows he was tricked into killing his girlfriend because his boss thought he was getting to cocky and arrogant and wanted to humble him and teach him a lesson. According to WoT, the reason she was killed is that it was discovered she was a legitimate heir to the throne of Antiva and there was a danger of a cult opposing the current king using her for political ends. So, a deal was done with House Arainai that if they eliminated her, they would be advanced to 8th Talon. This being the case, since she had apparently been in contact with the cult, technically she was a traitor to the Crown and thus to the Crows who support the regime. Now even assuming this wasn't the reason driving her elimination in DAO, I hardly think their Master would have ordered the elimination of one trained assassin in order to teach the other a lesson. There are surely better ways of humbling him than wasting a valuable resource? So, whilst Zevran may have believed it was intended to punish him and so his lover was an innocent victim, I think the WoT version is plausible that he and Taliesin were told the contract was a test (or their loyalty?) and he later discovered their Master advanced in status on the back of it, which is why he regarded his lover as a victim of his ambition rather than of her own. I seem to recall Zevran said that he had been told, by Taliesin, that she had betrayed him personally. As for what broke him, he says that she begged him not to kill her, said that she loved him and had not betrayed him but that he carried out the order regardless of what they had been to one another, then discovered she hadn't betrayed him and she had genuinely loved him.
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Post by colfoley on Jul 8, 2023 11:12:56 GMT
Which yes, are crap, but are also the norm and maybe even tame for most of the other institutions of Thedas. I entirely agree that the Crows are just one shitty organisation among many that exploit the ordinary people for the benefit of the ruling elite. If Solas' plan was simply to nuke the status quo (much like he did with the Evanuris) I'd probably go along with it, although I admit that, as with the elves, it would probably result in a lot of unnecessary bloodshed of ordinary people during the civil strife that followed, with just another equally oppressive and exploitative regime assuming power at the end of it. it is noteworthy that the Wardens themselves have been consistently well liked in the fandom and by the writers, so much so that their actions at Adamant are somewhat regarded as poor writing since the Wardens would never do what they did there...I disagree but still it is out there. My objection to the Warden plot was not that they would not be capable of such action as an organisation because clearly they do regard stopping the Blight as taking precedence over anything else. In fact I do share Solas' view that there must be better ways of dealing with the threat than infecting your recruits with the taint, particularly when the world is not actually in the throws of a Blight, so the justification that this is necessary to destroy the Arch-demon doesn't really apply. What I objected to was the fact that they were all so incredibly stupid that they didn't question why everyone started hearing the Calling, when apparently they knew that the two remaining Arch-demons were still deep underground, and why they immediately trusted Erimond and his idea to head into the Deep Roads to kill them with an "army" of demons. Had this never been suggested in the past if they knew where they were located? Could it be that it had been considered but the impossibility of reaching them with such limited numbers was an impediment to its success? Did they really think that bolstering their numbers with a small number of demons would make any difference? (bearing in mind it would seem only the small number of Warden mages could summon and control them). What did they think would happen if the mage controlling the demon was killed? The main objection to this idea, though, was the fact that, as I say above, they knew they weren't in a Blight because the Arch-demons were still underground, so why the panic? Wardens are constantly hearing the Calling and dying off between Blights and yet somehow the Order has survived down the years. Either send or, better still, travel to Warden HQ to find out if their experience was universal and what their leadership think they should do about it. Instead, they follow the lead of some random dude who just happens to show up and, let's face it, whose demeanor just shrieked untrustworthy. Could they not have had him portrayed as at least giving the impression he was genuinely concerned and having the sort of charm and charisma that could have one them over? This was a problem with a lot of those working with Corypheus; they were generally unlikable or smarmy and it was hard to imagine why people would be taken in by them. Point of order the Calling is something the Wardens here regardless of whether or not there is a Blight or an Arch-demon is active or not. At the end of their lives they all hear the Calling which portends when the Taint is going to get to them and get them killed to where they aren't able to do anyone any good. As for the plan itself I think the idea is that it is a fairly desperate one true, but I don't think its a stupid one. The disparity of forces between the Wardens and the Darkspawn made it hard to get to the Arch demons. The False Calling made it much more attractive to pursue that option especially when someone is giving you a solution on how to help even the scales, and we know a few demons could be powerful enough to really help even the scales combined with the Wardens forces. Maybe enough for success, maybe not. And because of the False Calling and the idea they were all going to die, understandable they'd be desperate enough to try the plan, and it makes a fair bit of sense why they wouldn't neccessarily just go on up to Weishaupt either. Which, keep in mind with all their secrets as well, if the Wardens all die...no more Wardens, no more Wardens, no more ability to truly fight the Blight. And since their impending doom meant they couldn't wait for the Blight to come to them, they had to go to the Blight. Which always should have been an option just the number of Darkspawn would've made it impossible. As for the likeability of the servants of Corypheus that's not really relevent to the issue at hand. In any number of situations we may not be able to work with people or insititutions that we like, this is both a matter of fiction and a real world truthood. Common cause makes the most unlikliest of bedfellows all the time. So our personal feelings on Livius Erimond doesen't really matter to the legitimacy of his plan (though I personally quite enjoyed the character). He came to the Wardens with a plan, a logical plan based on what they knew, and given the Wardens liberal usage of the tactic before 'any means to stop the Blight' the usage of Demons wouldn't have even caused them to turn their noses up. Yes, they had reservations, that much is clear, but without decisive evidence Clarel couldn't have just dismissed Erimond, given the situation, on a whim either.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jul 8, 2023 11:14:31 GMT
As for what broke him, he says that she begged him not to kill her, said that she loved him and had not betrayed him but that he carried out the order regardless of what they had been to one another, then discovered she hadn't betrayed him and she had genuinely loved him. Not just that he carried out the order, but treated her like absolute garbage as he did it, specifically laughed in her face and said even if her feelings and words were true he didn’t care before Taleisen slit her throat and he stood over her watching her die and spat on her. So he knows how much he hurt her in her final moments.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 8, 2023 15:54:48 GMT
Point of order the Calling is something the Wardens here regardless of whether or not there is a Blight or an Arch-demon is active or not. I knew this. My point was that the only reason to panic would be if a Blight was imminent. Since the Calling is something Wardens hear as a matter of course, the fact they all started hearing it at the same time was odd but hardly a reason to think they should immediately go in search of the last two Arch-demons. The reason Wardens head into the Deep Roads normally is to go out in a blaze of glory fighting darkspawn and hope they get a quick death as a result. This is not the same as seeking out the Arch-demons, which would require a long term, carefully organised campaign to even get anywhere near them. It is not a quick fix either with or without the demons. And because of the False Calling and the idea they were all going to die, understandable they'd be desperate enough to try the plan, and it makes a fair bit of sense why they wouldn't neccessarily just go on up to Weishaupt either. Which, keep in mind with all their secrets as well, if the Wardens all die...no more Wardens, no more Wardens, no more ability to truly fight the Blight. They should at least have contacted them. According to the Last Flight, there were no messages out of Orlais (yet strangely enough they were still getting them from Denerim). The leadership didn't think this odd because sometimes the local commanders would go off radar if they were organising an expedition in the Deep Roads but Clarel should most certainly have sent some sort of message to Weisshaupt because there was every likelihood they would not return and that would leave no Wardens on the surface in Orlais. She couldn't just assume their mission would be a success. A small extra point. If they were all hearing the false Calling, then surely they would realise the direction of the Calling had changed from that of the Arch-demons. If fact, if the Calling was coming from Corypheus, amplified by the Nightmare demon, wouldn't they realise it was coming from above ground? I thought the Calling was hearing the Arch-demon's song all the time and knowing from that the taint was getting a grip. So our personal feelings on Livius Erimond doesen't really matter to the legitimacy of his plan (though I personally quite enjoyed the character). He came to the Wardens with a plan, a logical plan based on what they knew, and given the Wardens liberal usage of the tactic before 'any means to stop the Blight' the usage of Demons wouldn't have even caused them to turn their noses up So given the Wardens' fabled secrecy, they didn't question how this non Warden knew they had a problem and how to fix it? Not only that but apparently Clarel knew about Corypheus and yet didn't think it might be a good idea to go after him. After all, he was an ancient darkspawn, so he came under their remit. If she had sent a group of Wardens after him and they didn't come back, all the more reason to keep up the search, not abandon the surface to go on a suicide mission down below. It is clear we won't agree on this but I just wanted to make it clear that I didn't object to the plot because I had an Alistair type admiration for the Wardens. However, as a military order, I did expect their leaders to show a bit of discipline and strategic planning.
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Post by colfoley on Jul 9, 2023 8:09:18 GMT
Point of order the Calling is something the Wardens here regardless of whether or not there is a Blight or an Arch-demon is active or not. I knew this. My point was that the only reason to panic would be if a Blight was imminent. Since the Calling is something Wardens hear as a matter of course, the fact they all started hearing it at the same time was odd but hardly a reason to think they should immediately go in search of the last two Arch-demons. The reason Wardens head into the Deep Roads normally is to go out in a blaze of glory fighting darkspawn and hope they get a quick death as a result. This is not the same as seeking out the Arch-demons, which would require a long term, carefully organised campaign to even get anywhere near them. It is not a quick fix either with or without the demons. And because of the False Calling and the idea they were all going to die, understandable they'd be desperate enough to try the plan, and it makes a fair bit of sense why they wouldn't neccessarily just go on up to Weishaupt either. Which, keep in mind with all their secrets as well, if the Wardens all die...no more Wardens, no more Wardens, no more ability to truly fight the Blight. They should at least have contacted them. According to the Last Flight, there were no messages out of Orlais (yet strangely enough they were still getting them from Denerim). The leadership didn't think this odd because sometimes the local commanders would go off radar if they were organising an expedition in the Deep Roads but Clarel should most certainly have sent some sort of message to Weisshaupt because there was every likelihood they would not return and that would leave no Wardens on the surface in Orlais. She couldn't just assume their mission would be a success. A small extra point. If they were all hearing the false Calling, then surely they would realise the direction of the Calling had changed from that of the Arch-demons. If fact, if the Calling was coming from Corypheus, amplified by the Nightmare demon, wouldn't they realise it was coming from above ground? I thought the Calling was hearing the Arch-demon's song all the time and knowing from that the taint was getting a grip. So our personal feelings on Livius Erimond doesen't really matter to the legitimacy of his plan (though I personally quite enjoyed the character). He came to the Wardens with a plan, a logical plan based on what they knew, and given the Wardens liberal usage of the tactic before 'any means to stop the Blight' the usage of Demons wouldn't have even caused them to turn their noses up So given the Wardens' fabled secrecy, they didn't question how this non Warden knew they had a problem and how to fix it? Not only that but apparently Clarel knew about Corypheus and yet didn't think it might be a good idea to go after him. After all, he was an ancient darkspawn, so he came under their remit. If she had sent a group of Wardens after him and they didn't come back, all the more reason to keep up the search, not abandon the surface to go on a suicide mission down below. It is clear we won't agree on this but I just wanted to make it clear that I didn't object to the plot because I had an Alistair type admiration for the Wardens. However, as a military order, I did expect their leaders to show a bit of discipline and strategic planning. Yes I did forget to acknowlege in my post about the uh, to quote Fiona, the convenience of Erimond's arrival there. Though to the best of my knowledge not sure how much we know about Erimond's arrival to the Wardens other then he did end up attached to them eventually. Even still though that wouldn't be enough information to dismiss him or his plan outright. Like it wasn't for Fiona to turn down the Tevinter Imperium. When you are drowing you are bound to accept help from the first person who offers you a hand up.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 9, 2023 12:36:41 GMT
Even still though that wouldn't be enough information to dismiss him or his plan outright. Like it wasn't for Fiona to turn down the Tevinter Imperium. When you are drowing you are bound to accept help from the first person who offers you a hand up. Dear Lord, don't get me started on Fiona! Admittedly, some of my objections were based on what I knew from Asunder, but even leaving that aside, her actions were downright treachery to the monarch of Ferelden and their citizens. The monarch offered the mages the sanctuary of their country, even though it was taking a considerable political risk in doing so. However, there was no indication that the monarch intended rescinding that protection until after their betrayal. Redcliffe Castle is probably the most defensible in all Ferelden, certainly when you have an army of mages to man the battlements. Any attack by the Templars would be seen as an act of aggression against Ferelden and the mages should have had no trouble in defending their position until the monarch was able to intervene with their own forces. Instead, she not only indentured all the mages to a Tevinter Magister but surrendered the castle to him as well, giving up control to a foreign power. Even if there were no Corypheus in the background, that was an utter betrayal of a friendly nation and pretty much confirmed the generally held belief that the moment mages are given their freedom, they will ally with Tevinter and restore the Imperium. Thanks for nothing, Fiona. To make matters worse, we weren't even allowed to judge her and, if we are stupid enough to continue to give the mages autonomy, she continues as their leader. Why on earth would I trust her? At least if we conscript them we have some control over her future actions but I still feel that either way we should have been given the option to replace her. My only consolation is that if I did conscript them, it results in the Bright Hand, who are the only group of mages who seem willing and able to stand up to Vivienne in the future, unlike the Fiona led College of Enchanters, and who, as free mages, endeavour to exemplify what decent mages should be.
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Post by theascendent on Jul 9, 2023 14:24:34 GMT
Do the Antivan Crows have Mages in their ranks? I have a vague recollection of an Antivan Crow who was a Blood Mage in the Last Flight novel. You would think that using blood Mages to stage 'accidents' or 'suicides' would be less incriminating than a slit throat as opposed to someone 'falling' down a flight of stairs or 'tumble' off a balcony. Then again they seem to like being flamboyant and having people 'know' they did the deed, but don't have sufficient evidence to 'prove' it. Just like to know what options any potential Mage origin might have as opposed to the default Tevinter Mage that I will probably pick. That seems to be a running theme in the promotional material the trio of Antivan Rogue, Tevinter Mage and Grey Warden Warrior. It would be more interesting to see the other varieties of Grey Wardens Rogue, or Tevinter Warrior, or any other variation.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 9, 2023 18:02:41 GMT
Do the Antivan Crows have Mages in their ranks? I have a vague recollection of an Antivan Crow who was a Blood Mage in the Last Flight novel. They did back then but that was 400 years ago, so circumstances could have changed in the interim. They probably never had that many, most likely just the odd apostate they managed to blackmail into working for them in exchange for protection. You would think that using blood Mages to stage 'accidents' or 'suicides' would be less incriminating than a slit throat as opposed to someone 'falling' down a flight of stairs or 'tumble' off a balcony. I assume you mean the mage stages accidents like "falling down a flight of stairs", although I don't see how a mage is more capable of doing this than a regular operative with a bit of trip wire. I imagine the blood mage would be really useful for gaining information via torture when you don't want to leave any physical damage to give away what you have done. According to the Core Rule Book, the spell Wrack is the reason blood mages have such a fearsome reputation. It is also possible to gain information via Thought Taking. Neither of these spells have featured in game but are part of the lore concerning blood mage abilities. Any mage would be useful for targets who are known to employ magic, so they can nullify it even if they don't use offensive magic against them. Then again they seem to like being flamboyant and having people 'know' they did the deed, but don't have sufficient evidence to 'prove' it. This is probably the chief reason you wouldn't hear about them using mages. Even if magic was employed on the job, they would likely conceal that fact and make it appear as though it was just a normal assassin who did the deed. Too much evidence of the use of illegal magic might drawn the unwanted attention of the Templars, who might turn a blind eye to a mage in their ranks with the odd bribe of lyrium but might draw the line at repeated obvious use of illicit magic. That seems to be a running theme in the promotional material the trio of Antivan Rogue, Tevinter Mage and Grey Warden Warrior I doubt they will make the options this limited. It would all but rule out a Vashoth mage, as I doubt the ruling elite of Tevinter are prepared to train up such a person, even if they have never been in the Qun. More likely, if they are going with different factions, then an alternative mage background might be a Lord of Fortune, as they are based in Rivain where there is a long tradition of non-Circle mages, although the actual Seers are always female. The Grey Wardens can obviously be possible for any class. Incidentally, the Tevinter Sicarri also have mages but always from slave families that are held to ransom to ensure their loyalty, according to TN, although I assume they must need actual citizens to run the organisation, so a Tevinter Altus could be in charge of a group of operatives. This group also have rogues and warriors. So, may be the background would not be Tevinter mage but Tevinter Sicarri. This could bring in dwarves and Vashoth, as I imagine the latter might be useful when infiltrating Qunari settlements on Seheron.
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Post by Cyberstrike on Jul 10, 2023 16:03:44 GMT
Even still though that wouldn't be enough information to dismiss him or his plan outright. Like it wasn't for Fiona to turn down the Tevinter Imperium. When you are drowing you are bound to accept help from the first person who offers you a hand up. Dear Lord, don't get me started on Fiona! Admittedly, some of my objections were based on what I knew from Asunder, but even leaving that aside, her actions were downright treachery to the monarch of Ferelden and their citizens. The monarch offered the mages the sanctuary of their country, even though it was taking a considerable political risk in doing so. However, there was no indication that the monarch intended rescinding that protection until after their betrayal. Redcliffe Castle is probably the most defensible in all Ferelden, certainly when you have an army of mages to man the battlements. Any attack by the Templars would be seen as an act of aggression against Ferelden and the mages should have had no trouble in defending their position until the monarch was able to intervene with their own forces. Instead, she not only indentured all the mages to a Tevinter Magister but surrendered the castle to him as well, giving up control to a foreign power. Even if there were no Corypheus in the background, that was an utter betrayal of a friendly nation and pretty much confirmed the generally held belief that the moment mages are given their freedom, they will ally with Tevinter and restore the Imperium. Thanks for nothing, Fiona. To make matters worse, we weren't even allowed to judge her and, if we are stupid enough to continue to give the mages autonomy, she continues as their leader. Why on earth would I trust her? At least if we conscript them we have some control over her future actions but I still feel that either way we should have been given the option to replace her. My only consolation is that if I did conscript them, it results in the Bright Hand, who are the only group of mages who seem willing and able to stand up to Vivienne in the future, unlike the Fiona led College of Enchanters, and who, as free mages, endeavour to exemplify what decent mages should be.
There is a difference between giving sanctuary and picking a side a war, given that the Templars were already in the Hinterlands near Redcliffe and some of the mages there were already using blood magic I think the monarch of Ferelden was going to revoke the sanctuary one way or another and sooner or later.
They either going to let the mages and templars kill each other and hope that their fighting would be contain to Redcliffe and the Hinterlands and after that then they would go in and mop what's left of the mages and Templars with their army. Or maybe they were hoping that the Conclave would've gotten resulted in a peace treaty.
Or that a group like the Inquisition would come in straighten the mess out, but I think that sanctuary was all the monarch of Ferelden was ever going to give and once the Magister came in and kicked Arl out of his own castle that was the final straw. But honestly they were probably going to revoke the sanctuary status of the mages sooner or later.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jul 10, 2023 19:51:17 GMT
There is a difference between giving sanctuary and picking a side a war, given that the Templars were already in the Hinterlands near Redcliffe and some of the mages there were already using blood magic I think the monarch of Ferelden was going to revoke the sanctuary one way or another and sooner or later. Giving the mages sanctuary was picking sides. No other nation or leader had done as much. May be Justinia had been pulling the strings behind the scenes but the codex says this, about Anora: The people believe her rule wise and well-reasoned, and they fully supported her decision to give the rebel mages safe harbor in Redcliffe following an impassioned speech she delivered in Denerim six months ago.So this wasn't a last minute decision on her part but something she did before the Conclave, presumably to allow the mages and their leaders in particular to attend. I guess this may have been why Justinia chose Haven for the venue, because the Queen had been supportive of the mages. I presume that the Templars rolled up to Therinfall when they heard that the mages were in residence at Redcliffe, so they were the unauthorised, unwelcome intruders. (I never understood why we need the Orlesian nobility to give their approval if we go to the Templars because it was in Ferelden, so they had no authority there). When the rebel mages took over both the town and castle, forcing Arl Teagan to flee for the capital, her support among the nobility dwindled rapidlyNotice it was only after the mages kicked out Teagan that the nobility in particular withdrew their support for this action and it was the intervention of Alexius that caused the mages to do this. So, kicking out Teagan wasn't the final straw, it was the action that resulted in support being withdrawn. This is why I say that Fiona knowingly betrayed not only the monarch but also the people of Ferelden by her action. Admittedly, not much is said about Alistair's attitude towards the mages in Inquisition but we do know from DA2 that he gives sanctuary to mages fleeing Kirkwall because Meredith chews him out about it. So, if anything his support for the mages begins even further back and Fiona, as Grand Enchanter, would be aware of this. I'm sure that the monarch was hoping the Conclave would result in a peace treaty but they invited the mages, not the Templars, and thus it was an utter betrayal by Fiona, as leader of those mages, to sell out the kingdom by giving its most defensible castle to a foreign power.
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