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Post by FiendishlyInventive on Jun 20, 2024 3:49:43 GMT
How I envy people their ability to just decide that something isn't worth thinking about for a few seconds. *sighs wistfully* Seeing as the fear of/potential to become pregnant is a pretty central aspect of femininity, and the narratives of most women's life stories if you look just a couple of years past their early 20's, you could argue that completely downplaying and dismissing that factor in games streamlines the roleplaying experience into an essentially male one. Do whatever you think is right, make your mark on the world, have a guy in every port if you want! No, no, don't worry about suddenly having to work your life around having a baby strapped to your stomach for nine months due to either trauma or a very hormonally impaired split-second decision, and a biologically induced sense of responsibility for another human life that's commonly understood to be the strongest emotional force in the universe ruling your priorities until the day you die! That stuff is for NPC women to bother their pretty little heads with! We've definitely had a little bit of a Daddening in video games the last decade and a half, as male gamers have grown up. Has there been a feminine equivalent I haven't picked up on? The only games I remember playing a mother in is Fable 2 and 3. And they pretty much made it a male experience, too, by instantaneously conjuring the kids into existence and making them someone else's problem by default. Not all women can get pregnant, playing as a father can in videogaming terms just mean taking care of someone, whereas the acts of potentially getting pregnant and how it fundamentally changes your life, can probably never be gamified in a respectful way whatsoever. Add to this most narratives around the subject are deliberately transgressive like Silent Hill 3 that came out twenty years ago now, and reject pregnancy ultimately, and socially people have become more progressive since; to have such a narrative device in a roleplaying game becomes a very touchy thing indeed. In fantasy? The opening thesis statement of House of the Dragon involves the agency of women being taken away because of their capacity to give birth. That even the hypothetical male, the "default" will be put above the rest.
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Post by Noxluxe on Jun 20, 2024 6:42:19 GMT
Not all women can get pregnant, playing as a father can in videoganing terms just mean taking care of someone, whereas the acts of potentially getting pregnant and how it fundamentally changes your life, can probably never be gamified in a respectful way whatsoever. Add to this most narratives around the subject are deliberately transgressive like Silent Hill 3 that came out twenty years ago now, and reject pregnancy ultimately, and socially people have become more progressive since; to have such a narrative device in a roleplaying game becomes a very touchy thing indeed. In fantasy? The opening thesis statement of House of the Dragon involves the agency of women being taken away because of their capacity to give birth. That even the hypothetical male, the "default" will be put above the rest. I can see it's a very touchy subject for you. Not so sure about "people". Some of us actually came from mothers who were by and large women. It's kind of a thing. And dismissing it as "probably can't be done in a respectful way" is ridiculous, if that's the case then it's obviously your ideas about what is and isn't respectful that need adjustment, in progressive terms. As it has always been with all other things that have ever been seen as "too touchy" to respectfully or disrespectfully explore in any storytelling context. I'll never understand how arbitrarily treating whatever personally discomforts you as above human understanding and exploration, IE: medieval royalty, the Catholic Church and the Word of God, is supposed to be "progressive". And for the record, fatherhood isn't just about "taking care of someone", in video game terms or otherwise, as the fantastic games with fatherhood as a central and nuanced theme clearly demonstrate. And House of the Dragon is a phenomenal example of women showing their character and determination (and individual character flaws) in how they reckon with and try to defy or work around that culturally enforced lack of agency, and has single-handedly turned the greatest pop culture disappointment in history around on the basis of that unflinching and empathetic writing, and very little else. I call bullshit on whatever point you think you're making there.
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Post by FiendishlyInventive on Jun 20, 2024 13:28:31 GMT
Not all women can get pregnant, playing as a father can in videoganing terms just mean taking care of someone, whereas the acts of potentially getting pregnant and how it fundamentally changes your life, can probably never be gamified in a respectful way whatsoever. Add to this most narratives around the subject are deliberately transgressive like Silent Hill 3 that came out twenty years ago now, and reject pregnancy ultimately, and socially people have become more progressive since; to have such a narrative device in a roleplaying game becomes a very touchy thing indeed. In fantasy? The opening thesis statement of House of the Dragon involves the agency of women being taken away because of their capacity to give birth. That even the hypothetical male, the "default" will be put above the rest. I can see it's a very touchy subject for you. Not so sure about "people". Some of us actually came from mothers who were by and large women. It's kind of a thing. And dismissing it as "probably can't be done in a respectful way" is ridiculous, if that's the case then it's obviously your ideas about what is and isn't respectful that need adjustment, in progressive terms. As it has always been with all other things that have ever been seen as "too touchy" to respectfully or disrespectfully explore in any storytelling context. I'll never understand how arbitrarily treating whatever personally discomforts you as above human understanding and exploration, IE: medieval royalty, the Catholic Church and the Word of God, is supposed to be "progressive". And for the record, fatherhood isn't just about "taking care of someone", in video game terms or otherwise, as the fantastic games with fatherhood as a central and nuanced theme clearly demonstrate. And House of the Dragon is a phenomenal example of women showing their character and determination (and individual character flaws) in how they reckon with and try to defy or work around that culturally enforced lack of agency, and has single-handedly turned the greatest pop culture disappointment in history around on the basis of that unflinching and empathetic writing, and very little else. I call bullshit on whatever point you think you're making there. You thought I was disagreeing with you on the basis of being transgender but I agree; I just have concerns about depiction and implementation. I also have some very close friends who are cisgender lesbians for which getting pregnant does not exist as a core part of their experience of femininity in any sense. (I do not believe pregnancy equates to motherhood, all women can potentially be mothers, even lesbians, such as all men can hypothetically be fathers, but not all women can get pregnant not all men can get women pregnant.) Everything I said existed within the context of how videogames can having difficulty tackling said concepts with nuance, and usually when gamified resort to using it as a vessel for fear around pregnancy and body horror (that being why I brought up Silent Hill 3), that being to say I have never seen a videogame tackle the positives in addition to the negatives which an RPG requires. I do not question the ability to tell great stories about motherhood (See Gris) or fatherhood through the medium itself, nor stories about specific experiences of pregnancy either, I do question the ability to gamifiy the agency around being pregnant and the act of pregnancy in an RPG. Totally agree with what you wrote on House of the Dragon apart from your tone towards me but I understand the misunderstanding. I tried to coyly refer to the ending of the first episode without giving away what actually happens. For all the praise Paddy Considine (I'm biased being Irish) rightly got, Emma D'Arcy might be my favourite actor on that show, and I have no doubt their identity informs their performance of having a role put on to them by others.
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Post by Noxluxe on Jun 20, 2024 21:19:21 GMT
You thought I was disagreeing with you on the basis of being transgender but I agree; I just have concerns about depiction and implementation. I also have some very close friends who are cisgender lesbians for which getting pregnant does not exist as a core part of their experience of femininity in any sense. (I do not believe pregnancy equates to motherhood, all women can potentially be mothers, even lesbians, such as all men can hypothetically be fathers, but not all women can get pregnant not all men can get women pregnant.) Everything I said existed within the context of how videogames can having difficulty tackling said concepts with nuance, and usually when gamified resort to using it as a vessel for fear around pregnancy and body horror (that being why I brought up Silent Hill 3), that being to say I have never seen a videogame tackle the positives in addition to the negatives which an RPG requires. I do not question the ability to tell great stories about motherhood (See Gris) or fatherhood through the medium itself, nor stories about specific experiences of pregnancy either, I do question the ability to gamifiy the agency around being pregnant and the act of pregnancy in an RPG. Totally agree with what you wrote on House of the Dragon apart from your tone towards me but I understand the misunderstanding. I tried to coyly refer to the ending of the first episode without giving away what actually happens. For all the praise Paddy Considine (I'm biased being Irish) rightly got, Emma D'Arcy might be my favourite actor on that show, and I have no doubt their identity informs their performance of having a role put on to them by others. No, I thought you were disagreeing with me because you're gun-shy about using and tackling really potent human emotional themes in games or gameplay just because it's rarely been done at all, let alone well, before, and you evidently have complicated feelings about them yourself, for whatever reason that doesn't concern me. Which is a fundamentally conservative, specifically anti-progressive point. No idea about all this other stuff you're putting on me. Nobody said anything to do with pregnancy was required for femininity, just that pregnancy is a big and largely untapped theme within it when it comes to video games. Also no idea what you mean about "gamifying the agency around being pregnant" or the "act" of pregnancy in an RPG. Roleplaying games are no strangers to contracting player characters with flavorful and extended debuffs either on accident or through choices, that it's up to you how you want to handle or come to terms with as a roleplayer. Sure there are always people who categorically avoid anything mechanically disadvantageous just to optimize their performance in the game, but those players aren't actually playing the game as an RPG. If the writing and atmosphere bear it out then there's no reason why the challenge of an in-game pregnancy process couldn't be viewed as super rewarding and affirming despite the extra effort required. Or like a damning duty you can grit your teeth and bear out, or rebel against and try to reject, for that matter, which says just as much about your character. Just like it does in real life. And every single decision point along that way by definition would be an expression of feminine agency that games don't have currently. I don't know about Emma D'Arcy, either. By the time she comes in, her character's journey seems to be more about doubling down and trying to defend the people she loves from the consequences of choices she and others made when she was younger, and the discord caused by the weaknesses her pretenses have left in their right to live and hold power for her enemies to exploit. The actress playing her younger self dealt with issues of identity and expectations in her episodes, but by the time she's grown it's pretty definitively all about motherhood, revenge, leadership and the struggles of a woman trying to command the respect of men. Anything is possible, but I don't see the line between those themes and the actress' transgender identity specifically. Definitely not denying that she does a good job, though, or that her playing such an iconic mother role, transgender or not, is pretty strong representation. The choice of casting on the show is brilliant and fantastic all-around. Casting actors and actresses who add something extra and unexpected on top of being more than competent and suited for the roles, rather than instead of. I suspect you and I disagree about the appropriate emotional reaction to the end of the first episode, though. Understanding the thinking going on behind the various parties, especially in retrospect, that's a seriously cringy and terrifying moment of a little girl being kicked way out of her depth, and her family and country condemned to terrible strife because the grown men around her are either too blind or too corrupt to stop the trainwreck they're about to launch.
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Post by FiendishlyInventive on Jun 21, 2024 5:20:30 GMT
"Seeing as the fear of/potential to become pregnant is a pretty central aspect of femininity, and the narratives of most women's life stories if you look just a couple of years past their early 20's, you could argue that completely downplaying and dismissing that factor in games streamlines the roleplaying experience into an essentially male one."
This was the reason I brought up types of women who can not get pregnant and lesbians, because although I largely agree with what you wrote- I disagree that it streamlines the roleplaying experience into an essentially male one as that ignores or invalidates their experiences of femininity.
I think pregnancy in videogaming absolutely ought to be tackled, but tackling it without diminishing how existential it can be in a roleplaying environment appears difficult, (not therefore not worth doing though) mechanically speaking Morrigan comes to mind and how that role I thought had only barely worked in the future titles in terms of feeling any differentiation.
I think the fundamental mistake in the first episode was already made by the time it starts, that being to push Aemma to have more children to the point Viserys deemed her death acceptable in the pursuit of a potential male heir, (setting aside feudalism obviously not good) Rhaenryra "deserved" to be the heir; just not under the circumstances the people around her placed her in. Although it is in itself another confiscation of her agency, as you may recall, she only wished to see the world with Alicent and eat cake.
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Post by Noxluxe on Jun 22, 2024 3:16:00 GMT
"Seeing as the fear of/potential to become pregnant is a pretty central aspect of femininity, and the narratives of most women's life stories if you look just a couple of years past their early 20's, you could argue that completely downplaying and dismissing that factor in games streamlines the roleplaying experience into an essentially male one." This was the reason I brought up types of women who can not get pregnant and lesbians, because although I largely agree with what you wrote- I disagree that it streamlines the roleplaying experience into an essentially male one as that ignores or invalidates their experiences of femininity. I think pregnancy in videogaming absolutely ought to be tackled, but tackling it without diminishing how existential it can be in a roleplaying environment appears difficult, (not therefore not worth doing though) mechanically speaking Morrigan comes to mind and how that role I thought had only barely worked in the future titles in terms of feeling any differentiation. I think the fundamental mistake in the first episode was already made by the time it starts, that being to push Aemma to have more children to the point Viserys deemed her death acceptable in the pursuit of a potential male heir, (setting aside feudalism obviously not good) Rhaenryra "deserved" to be the heir; just not under the circumstances the people around her placed her in. Although it is in itself another confiscation of her agency, as you may recall, she only wished to see the world with Alicent and eat cake. No, it doesn't. Essentially. Not exclusively. If the way I phrased that "invalidates" someone's idea about their own gender, then it's on them for having built a weak and fragile identity that depends on the off-hand affirmation of some random person on another continent, not on me for having summarized the gender experience without accounting for the less-than-a-percentage outliers. And occasionally feeling ignored is unfortunately the practical reality for any and all minorities in the world, whether you're left-handed, autistic or born without depth perception. I don't hold myself responsible for that, and don't complain when generalizations are made that don't specifically make me feel included because of personal idiosyncrasies of my own, either. That'd be narcissism, to say that the general population can't be addressed without acknowledging special little me, too. And in a feudal society, which was the most stable large-scale government model we had to facilitate peaceful transfer of power until the printing press was invented and peasants learned to read, allowing for elections, the line of succession was supposed to be clear and pre-established regardless of individual merits, exactly because the alternative was rampant civil wars between rival claimants. Making Rhaenyra heir (and I have no idea why you'd think she "deserved" it) was an obvious invitation to civil war just in terms of how society works. That she was a clearly irresponsible and selfish brat who immediately went to work on undermining her own position by obviously having heirs with anyone she liked and passing them off as products of a royal marriage didn't help, but the die was cast the moment Viserys put her very easily opposed claim over his brother's much more assertive and straightforward one, which would then have passed on to his own first son with his next wife without any trouble, as was tradition. No burning down the kingdom to re-secure it because one half predictably went "Do we really have to listen to this woman?" necessary. Frankly, you're the one dismissing Rhaenyra's agency. She could have run away or flown off on her dragon to eat cake the rest of her life any time she wanted. She'd just have had to earn or bake it herself, without all the lovely benefits of being a royal princess. Which unfortunately means that you're co-responsible for the country not erupting into war. Which was the part she decided not to take seriously. Those are all choices that tell you something about Rhaenyra and what matters to her. That's what agency is. Not just being told/"allowed"/empowered to do whatever you want without having to face the consequences, but choosing how to to deal with the situation you're in and the responsibilities and opportunities you have according to your values and desires.
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Post by FiendishlyInventive on Jun 22, 2024 20:49:35 GMT
Essentially "Used to emphasize the basic, fundamental, or intrinsic nature of a person or thing."
But it is not the intrinsic experience of all women, is it? Nor does the absence make that therefore a male experience because significantly more than one percent choose not to get pregnant either. (Perhaps you simply missed the difference between the social roles and general biological proclivities.) With my underlining of what I thought of monarchy I obviously meant deserved as much as any man. It is repeated multiple times in the story no rule exists that disavows women rulers, it is simply without any precedent, apart from if you count the sister wives of Aegon the Conquerer.
I had given you the benefit of the doubt but I have no interest in going in circles.
I'm not going to continue this "discussion" further, being that you're more interested in putting words in my mouth than having a conversation about what I ultimately wrote.
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Post by Noxluxe on Jun 22, 2024 23:21:28 GMT
Essentially "Used to emphasize the basic, fundamental, or intrinsic nature of a person or thing." But it is not the intrinsic experience of all women, is it? Nor does the absence make that therefore a male experience. (Perhaps you simply missed the difference between the social roles and general biological proclivities.) With my underlining of what I thought of monarchy I obviously meant deserved as much as any man. It is repeated multiple times in the story no rule exists that disavows women rulers, it is simply without any precedent, apart from if you count the sister wives of Aegon the Conquerer. I had given you the benefit of the doubt but no more. I'm not going to continue this "discussion" further, being that you're more interested in putting words in my mouth than having a conversation about what I ultimately wrote. Oooh. "All." and "Therefore a male experience" with no qualifier to show I was generalizing both the social and biological proclivities of women vs men. Yeah, I'm totally the one putting words in your mouth. No misrepresenting what I said there, none at all. And that's not true. It's not without precedent. There having been a great council to decide between a male descendant from a female line and a female descendant from the male line of the current king makes it clear that not only are women not prevented from inheriting the ruling seat, they obviously have the right in theory, in the absence of a direct male heir. Or that'd have been a massive waste of time. It just so happens that any man present at such a vote would be painfully aware of all the other men who would happily take the opportunity to back her generally more competitive, ruthless and war-loving male relatives (coughDaemoncough) in asserting their own power at her and her children's expense. Which usually meant either imprisoning, forcibly marrying or killing her and her descendants, as has happened repeatedly in history when a ruling monarch failed to leave a male heir and we tried to make do with his daughter. Don't know about you, but to me the prospect of likely condemning the country to internal conflict and a woman and her children to slavery or death along with a few thousand soldiers and peasants, and a shitton of resources, generally makes something enough of a bad idea to outweigh the obvious and superficial social justice benefits. And HotD does a great job showcasing exactly that.
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Post by DragonEffect on Jul 2, 2024 0:09:28 GMT
Answering OP's question (even though they were obviously trolling ![:P](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/CeRUIfXurYhaBmWjMBkt.png) )... I was actually surprised not to see my Fem!Hawke with child in between Acts and 3. I would've loved to see her have a child with Fenris or Sebastian. Bethany would be a great aunt and Mama Hawke would become a proud grandma. Dunno about Carver as an uncle and honestly don't care ![:coolstory:](//storage.proboards.com/6576594/images/BeKJgeLJd0twKvhErKZw.png) . Plus, I would love to see them play with the dog in the courtyard. But the father not necessarily had to be one of our companions. Hawke could've had a fling with an NPC from one of the DLCs - why not? -and later found out they were with child. As for the Inquisitor, I like to believe they would postpone the decision to have a child after the defeat of Corypheus, simply because they were facing an immortal being with unfathomable magical powers. Not exactly a fine prospect for starting a family. So I headcanon my Inq having a child with Cullen AFTER Corypheus goes on a one way trip to the Fade, and taking precautions to NOT get pregnant before that. Simple as that.
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