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Post by warbaby2 on Dec 6, 2016 12:14:38 GMT
This is a joke thread... right? How dare you say that about OP!? He is really serious, just look at all he post he has made in the thread........ It is evident that he is dead serious. Video games are serious business... there are people that make a lot of money bitching about the looks of video game characters, after all.
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Post by SofaJockey on Dec 6, 2016 12:25:00 GMT
I would also like to reference Poe's Law:
Poe's law is an Internet adage that states that, without a clear indicator of the author's intent, it is impossible to create a parody of extreme views so obviously exaggerated that it cannot be mistaken by some readers or viewers as a sincere expression of the parodied views.
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Post by hammerstorm on Dec 6, 2016 12:37:59 GMT
I base my statement on the fact that OP decided to create a thread about his "opinion", then leave it as the arguments started. But I have seen my share of stupid and crazy opinions in real life, so I'm not saying that this is a troll thread.
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Post by SofaJockey on Dec 6, 2016 12:40:47 GMT
I think the OP has 'form'...
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2016 12:46:45 GMT
Solas example was a prove of what you said was inaccurate. Then you have changed your narrative and you told me we girl talk too much about love interests fangirling. Then you say Tali is an exception. I don't know what to say because it seems whatever I tell you, you will say I'm wrong because it doesn't adjust of what you expected. I think you are the first person who says the Asari are too different to be mistaken for a human. Now I'm impressed. By the way, Jack was another interesting love interest. She was beautiful and bald. And when I say beautiful, I refer to all her precious face. Yeah, of course! Anti-femminist narrative it's been used for so long because it's right! As slavery! As murder! As Oppression? As MagevsTemplars! Solas example was meant to prove that my proof is inaccurate? We're in a thread about women being ugly in games. I make an argument that the most discussed women and the ones with most fan content are always attractive and your counter-argument is fucking Solas thread. That's like being in a discussion about trucks not being discussed much and saying "Not true!!! Look at this Supra thread!!!". It's completely irrelevant to this discussion. And the part about fangirling is simply true. As was said before, it's usually women that make fanart of their LIs and also, as I mentioned before, tend to discuss them more. If you can't accept facts then you're delusional. And yes, I made Tali an exception because she is one. If you have ~30 LIs from various games and all of their discussions aren't matching Tali's then she's clearly something unusual and hence an exception. I have certain suspicions on why she's so popular but I'm afraid I won't be able to share them since they would probably get many people angry. Least to say it has to do with sociology and a very popular (and unhealthy) mentality of many young men and boys nowdays. And of course you're jumping to extremes again, trying to be funny, attempting to ridicule me indirectly. It won't work though, rest assured. I just said to just give it a thought and that there might be some truth in it. As for your examples, they all had their reasons for happening. Usually mostly invalid, but there was always at least a bit of truth to them, especially if you were willing to look from a broader point of view, of which you're clearly uncapable judging by your reactions to my posts. So, now we have feminists, fangirls, many unhealthy young men and boys as having tastes in women in video games that do not exactly match yours. Your majority is becoming less pronounced in your posts. And, again, trying to qualify negatively every other gamer does not really make you sympathetic. Really, do try Blade and Soul, I think you will have a blast in Cinderlands.
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Post by readher on Dec 6, 2016 13:17:36 GMT
Solas example was meant to prove that my proof is inaccurate? We're in a thread about women being ugly in games. I make an argument that the most discussed women and the ones with most fan content are always attractive and your counter-argument is fucking Solas thread. That's like being in a discussion about trucks not being discussed much and saying "Not true!!! Look at this Supra thread!!!". It's completely irrelevant to this discussion. And the part about fangirling is simply true. As was said before, it's usually women that make fanart of their LIs and also, as I mentioned before, tend to discuss them more. If you can't accept facts then you're delusional. And yes, I made Tali an exception because she is one. If you have ~30 LIs from various games and all of their discussions aren't matching Tali's then she's clearly something unusual and hence an exception. I have certain suspicions on why she's so popular but I'm afraid I won't be able to share them since they would probably get many people angry. Least to say it has to do with sociology and a very popular (and unhealthy) mentality of many young men and boys nowdays. And of course you're jumping to extremes again, trying to be funny, attempting to ridicule me indirectly. It won't work though, rest assured. I just said to just give it a thought and that there might be some truth in it. As for your examples, they all had their reasons for happening. Usually mostly invalid, but there was always at least a bit of truth to them, especially if you were willing to look from a broader point of view, of which you're clearly uncapable judging by your reactions to my posts. So, now we have feminists, fangirls, many unhealthy young men and boys as having tastes in women in video games that do not exactly match yours. Your majority is becoming less pronounced in your posts. And, again, trying to qualify negatively every other gamer does not really make you sympathetic. Really, do try Blade and Soul, I think you will have a blast in Cinderlands. I swear, holding myself back is getting harder and harder with every post that misinterprets what I say in the author's favor. I said it already, but you seemed to miss it, so I'll say it again. We're in a thread about FEMALE love interests for MALE players being ugly. With that in mind, let's adress your post. Why should feminists by interested in what female LIs for male players look like? They won't be the ones romancing them. They should focus on what men will look like since they'll be romacing them. I'll leave lesbians out, because they'll obviously be romancing females as well, but it will be a small number of feminists, which is in turn already small number of females overall. Then we have fangirls. Please, tell me where I said fangirls have tastes that do not match yours. In fact, they do, because they're romancing MEN and not WOMEN. I only mentioned fangirls, because women tend to fuss about LIs in games more, be it by forum threads, or fanart. They were only mentioned to counter ridiculous and irrelevant argument of Solas being popular, so it's not always attractive females that are most popular. Well, duh, Solas is popular among WOMEN, and we're talking about who's most popular for MEN. And last, few posts ago I actually said that Tali has traits that most men would find attractive. I even romanced her myself. I never said males who find her attractive are unhealthy. I said that the unusual amount of discussion resolving around her on forums is a becaue of some men with unhealthy mentality. You're twisting my words, whether on purpose or not I will probably never know, but I'm really getting tired of that. And finally, I hate Japanese/Asian games (and anime and all that stuff as well for that matter), their aesthetics especially. The only exception is Lineage 2, simply because it's an amazing MMO. That means I won't take up on your recommendation.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2016 13:24:37 GMT
What an interesting development.
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Post by lynroy on Dec 6, 2016 13:26:14 GMT
Dammit, Donk. Share!
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Post by readher on Dec 6, 2016 13:37:38 GMT
I'm just tired of saying the same thing over and over again because my posts are being misinterpreted (and considering how many times I already elaborated on the points constantly being raised, I'm fairly sure it's on purpose) and straight females arguing with me that they know better what straight men find attractive, especially when I provide many arguments that support my stance, as opposed to irrelevant arguments or none at all coming from the other side. Just look at any ranking of females online and tell me how many short-haired women are there (spoiler alert: there will be none). Of course there will be few people in the comments saying that they don't actually find x or y attractive, but there's a very high chance that p, q, r and z will still appeal to them. That's because they're all in universally attractive group, which will appeal to MAJORITY of men. Why would they make all women look so that they will only appeal to small minorities of men, especially since whether you like it or not straight males are still a large majority of all players, even in BioWare games.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2016 13:44:08 GMT
So, now we have feminists, fangirls, many unhealthy young men and boys as having tastes in women in video games that do not exactly match yours. Your majority is becoming less pronounced in your posts. And, again, trying to qualify negatively every other gamer does not really make you sympathetic. Really, do try Blade and Soul, I think you will have a blast in Cinderlands. I swear, holding myself back is getting harder and harder with every post that misinterprets what I say in the author's favor. I said it already, but you seemed to miss it, so I'll say it again. We're in a thread about FEMALE love interests for MALE players being ugly. With that in mind, let's adress your post. Why should feminists by interested in what female LIs for male players look like? They won't be the ones romancing them. They should focus on what men will look like since they'll be romacing them. I'll leave lesbians out, because they'll obviously be romancing females as well, but it will be a small number of feminists, which is in turn already small number of females overall. Then we have fangirls. Please, tell me where I said fangirls have tastes that do not match yours. In fact, they do, because they're romancing MEN and not WOMEN. I only mentioned fangirls, because women tend to fuss about LIs in games more, be it by forum threads, or fanart. They were only mentioned to counter ridiculous and irrelevant argument of Solas being popular, so it's not always attractive females that are most popular. Well, duh, Solas is popular among WOMEN, and we're talking about who's most popular for MEN. And last, few posts ago I actually said that Tali has traits that most men would find attractive. I even romanced her myself. I never said males who find her attractive are unhealthy. I said that the unusual amount of discussion resolving around her on forums is a becaue of some men with unhealthy mentality. You're twisting my words, whether on purpose or not I will probably never know, but I'm really getting tired of that. And finally, I hate Japanese/Asian games (and anime and all that stuff as well for that matter), their aesthetics especially. The only exception is Lineage 2, simply because it's an amazing MMO. That means I won't take up on your recommendation. You hate the females characters in the Asian games too, not just BioWARE/Obsi's games? A lot of people, including a copious number of males love it. Again, males are not a monolith group as far as their tastes go, and you keep actually presenting yourself as, well, a minority. Which I find ironic.
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Post by readher on Dec 6, 2016 13:50:01 GMT
I swear, holding myself back is getting harder and harder with every post that misinterprets what I say in the author's favor. I said it already, but you seemed to miss it, so I'll say it again. We're in a thread about FEMALE love interests for MALE players being ugly. With that in mind, let's adress your post. Why should feminists by interested in what female LIs for male players look like? They won't be the ones romancing them. They should focus on what men will look like since they'll be romacing them. I'll leave lesbians out, because they'll obviously be romancing females as well, but it will be a small number of feminists, which is in turn already small number of females overall. Then we have fangirls. Please, tell me where I said fangirls have tastes that do not match yours. In fact, they do, because they're romancing MEN and not WOMEN. I only mentioned fangirls, because women tend to fuss about LIs in games more, be it by forum threads, or fanart. They were only mentioned to counter ridiculous and irrelevant argument of Solas being popular, so it's not always attractive females that are most popular. Well, duh, Solas is popular among WOMEN, and we're talking about who's most popular for MEN. And last, few posts ago I actually said that Tali has traits that most men would find attractive. I even romanced her myself. I never said males who find her attractive are unhealthy. I said that the unusual amount of discussion resolving around her on forums is a becaue of some men with unhealthy mentality. You're twisting my words, whether on purpose or not I will probably never know, but I'm really getting tired of that. And finally, I hate Japanese/Asian games (and anime and all that stuff as well for that matter), their aesthetics especially. The only exception is Lineage 2, simply because it's an amazing MMO. That means I won't take up on your recommendation. You hate the females characters in the Asian games too, not just BioWARE/Obsi's games? A lot of people, including a copious number of males love it. Again, males are not a monolith group as far as their tastes go, and you keep actually presenting yourself as, well, a minority. Which I find ironic.
I can't believe you're doing it again. I pointed out that I HATE them, not that I think majority of men will find women in asian games unattractive. You're once again twisting words to suit your agenda. I can find someone unattractive but at the same time recognize that most men would find her attractive, something you apparently can't grasp.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2016 13:52:10 GMT
You hate the females characters in the Asian games too, not just BioWARE/Obsi's games? A lot of people, including a copious number of males love it. Again, males are not a monolith group as far as their tastes go, and you keep actually presenting yourself as, well, a minority. Which I find ironic.
I can't believe you're doing it again. I pointed out that I HATE them, not that I think majority of men will find women in asian games unattractive. You're once again twisting words to suit your agenda. I can find someone unattractive but at the same time recognize that most men would find her attractive, something you apparently can't grasp. But you said that your tastes in women represent the majority of men? So, how can you find unattractive something that most men find attractive?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2016 13:52:21 GMT
I forgive you for you know not what you do. And Aria's kiss made her romanceable in some people's book, just as Samara was romanceable for the same reason in some people's book. Just sayin'. But shouldn't we be talking about butterfaces? Let's get back to that, woman who thinks she's qualified to speak on behalf of hetero men without all the fallout that would occur in the opposite scenario. Thanks, Jesus. In Aria regard, if you consider a kiss she gives you in a moment with no consequences whatsover a romance, well... I... don't know how to tell you but... that is not a romance. That's barely a nod to the players. Samara has special romance content in Citadel DLC and its roots comes from ME2 rejecting romance. It's well established as a romance option in ME3 (even when some people don't think so if you don't obtain a trophy for that). Aria is just a kiss and the kiss is simply not mentioned again. I'm so qualified to speak on behalf of hetero men the same way you are so qualified to speak on behalf of Deadpool (he is funny Goddamit!! TRY TO BE FUNNY! I DARE YOU! COME ON! I BELIEVE IN YOU SON!!!)Reading comprehension skills -- try to use them. I dare you! Come on I believe in you, whatever you're supposed to be! Now I know why your posts are are so regrettable. "Some people" -- did I say Deadpool? Nope. But Deadpool loves seeing you bend yourself out of shape to argue points Deadpool has no stake in. Squirrel! Deadpool has your red herring right here. *grabs Deadpool* Now go fetch. Wow, Dalinne. What time did YOU go to bed last night, hmm? Judging from your timestamp, looks like Deadpool was on your mind before your head hit that pillow. Good to see Deadpool can satisfy you in ways your boyfriend can't or won't, baby. Report to the ship immediately. No, wait. Don't.
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Post by readher on Dec 6, 2016 13:56:49 GMT
I can't believe you're doing it again. I pointed out that I HATE them, not that I think majority of men will find women in asian games unattractive. You're once again twisting words to suit your agenda. I can find someone unattractive but at the same time recognize that most men would find her attractive, something you apparently can't grasp. But you said that your tastes in women represent the majority of men? So, how can you find unattractive something that most men find attractive? My tastes in real women, yes. Asian games with their anime-style graphics are hardly representation of that. There are many REAL asian women I find attractive. Your argument is equal to saying "well, most women find muscular men attractive, surely they're attracted to a 10m tall bag of muscular meat character from Tekken as well". Again, irrelevant.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2016 14:00:04 GMT
But you said that your tastes in women represent the majority of men? So, how can you find unattractive something that most men find attractive? My tastes in real women, yes. Asian games with their anime-style graphics are hardly representation of that. There are many REAL asian women I find attractive. Your argument is equal to saying "well, most women find muscular men attractive, surely they're attracted to a 10m tall bag of muscular meat character from Tekken as well". Again, irrelevant. I thought we were discussing of what Cora would look like? Aka a video-game character? An animated toon?
All I really hope to see is that you go easy on the majority argument and stop trying to pre-emptively insult everyone who you think might disagree with what you personally want, the boys, the fangirls, the feminists, etc. If you just spoke for yourself, and did not try to belittle others, I'd totally emphasize with your deepest heart desire for Cora to have pony tail, red-gold hair, sizable bosom and big luminous eyes, or whatever else is that you wish she looks like. Post pictures, whatever. But talk for yourself, please, and try to be kinder to others.
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Post by readher on Dec 6, 2016 14:09:05 GMT
My tastes in real women, yes. Asian games with their anime-style graphics are hardly representation of that. There are many REAL asian women I find attractive. Your argument is equal to saying "well, most women find muscular men attractive, surely they're attracted to a 10m tall bag of muscular meat character from Tekken as well". Again, irrelevant. I thought we were discussing of what Cora would look like? Aka a video-game character? An animated toon?
All I really hope to see is that you go easy on the majority argument and stop trying to pre-emptively insult everyone who you think might disagree with what you personally want, the boys, the fangirls, the feminists, etc. If you just spoke for yourself, and did not try to belittle others, I'd totally emphasize with your deepest heart desire for Cora to have pony tail, red-gold hair, sizable bosom and big luminous eyes, or whatever else is that you wish she looks like. Post pictures, whatever. But talk for yourself, please, and try to be kinder to others.
Video-game character, yes. But in a game where characters (at least human ones) are modelled after real ones. As in, the artstyle of human characters aims to represent people as they look in real life. Asian games don't do that. And I didn't insult anyone, not sure where your claim comes from. I just don't understand why people who won't be romancing female characters anyway are the ones that defend their unattractive looks the most. It should be of no concern to them. And once again, I've provided many arguments that support my majority argument. It is others that argue with me that are unable to provide countering one, hence I see no reason not to keep my stance.
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Post by fialka on Dec 6, 2016 14:20:35 GMT
I said my piece on this subject (back on the first page I believe) and was going to leave it at that. But, like watching a train wreck, I can't seem to stay away from this thread. But I do want to clarify one point that was made be other posters, because I made a similar point in my post.
The reason people bring up male LIs and characters in this thread is for the sake of comparison. I'll give an example from Inquisition, because I was personally involved in a lot of those conversations in the lead up to its release. At any given time, there would be a minimum of three, sometimes more, active threads (and here's where I give a huge shout out to the mods here for merging threads like these) scattered throughout the forums complaining that the female LIs and characters were ugly, manly, not hot enough, take your pick. The idea of a politically correct 'agenda' being behind it was a common one. Men who disagreed were largely ignored or labeled SJWs and women who disagreed were labeled feminists (oh noes!) or SJWs.
Meanwhile I can think of all of one thread (and I remember it clearly, down to the avatar of the OP, because I think it really was just the one) started by a woman complaining about ugly men. As with this thread, many posters went in to disagree that that was true or that it mattered. The interesting thing is, the vast majority of them were women.
Which brings up the question: why does this seem to be such a big deal to so many men, and men specifically? That's why it's brought up in threads like these. Because women don't seem to feel the same way. At least not strongly enough to be vocal about it. In fact, some of the most popular male LIs, with the most devoted fanbases, aren't conventionally attractive at all (Solas and Garrus, for example). And it's certainly not because women don't appreciate attractive LIs (see: Cullen, Alistair, Fenris).
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Post by Ahriman on Dec 6, 2016 14:32:01 GMT
Which brings up the question: why does this seem to be such a big deal to so many men, and men specifically? Because men like visual attractiveness and women search for other qualities? I guess we'll never know, some secrets should be never uncovered.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2016 14:51:46 GMT
I thought we were discussing of what Cora would look like? Aka a video-game character? An animated toon?
All I really hope to see is that you go easy on the majority argument and stop trying to pre-emptively insult everyone who you think might disagree with what you personally want, the boys, the fangirls, the feminists, etc. If you just spoke for yourself, and did not try to belittle others, I'd totally emphasize with your deepest heart desire for Cora to have pony tail, red-gold hair, sizable bosom and big luminous eyes, or whatever else is that you wish she looks like. Post pictures, whatever. But talk for yourself, please, and try to be kinder to others.
Video-game character, yes. But in a game where characters (at least human ones) are modelled after real ones. As in, the artstyle of human characters aims to represent people as they look in real life. Asian games don't do that. And I didn't insult anyone, not sure where your claim comes from. I just don't understand why people who won't be romancing female characters anyway are the ones that defend their unattractive looks the most. It should be of no concern to them. And once again, I've provided many arguments that support my majority argument. It is others that argue with me that are unable to provide countering one, hence I see no reason not to keep my stance.
Uhm, I suggest considering not summarily calling other men "unhealthy" or ascribing negative qualities to "fangirls" and "feminists", as that what comes across as ugly, and if possible no outright crudity, like cussing. Less drama, less soap box, less "I am right because I am right", less stubborn statements that whatever anyone else is saying is wrong and irrelevant because it is not what you are saying. Just stick to what you love, not what you hate, and you will be surprised how much more cordial and fun chatting will become, and how it will lead to agreement, rather than tension.
You also were the one that have provided statements showing yourself as a someone who disagrees with other males on the matters of attractiveness of the female characters in the videogames, with both Tali and anime.
Being a female gamer does not mean that one won't play a male PC, and romances written for a male PC. Finally, we all will play with the same squad, that has a limited number of characters, so we all are curious what species they are and how they look like. Hence the interest in the female squad mates is perfectly natural from anyone who plans to play Andromeda.
I honestly doubt anyone really wants Cora to look like a-girl-next-door aka Sara (whose face is customizable). Tbh, Sara does have your main prerequisite of feminine beauty, the pony tail. And, yes, I know it's not her hair, it's her face that in this case is under scrutiny.
Again, I am sure Cora will be at least very pretty if not an outright pageant beauty or a slightly more down to earth take on Asian anime.
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Post by readher on Dec 6, 2016 15:12:31 GMT
Video-game character, yes. But in a game where characters (at least human ones) are modelled after real ones. As in, the artstyle of human characters aims to represent people as they look in real life. Asian games don't do that. And I didn't insult anyone, not sure where your claim comes from. I just don't understand why people who won't be romancing female characters anyway are the ones that defend their unattractive looks the most. It should be of no concern to them. And once again, I've provided many arguments that support my majority argument. It is others that argue with me that are unable to provide countering one, hence I see no reason not to keep my stance.
Uhm, I suggest considering not summarily calling other men "unhealthy" or ascribing negative qualities to "fangirls" and "feminists", as that what comes across as ugly, and if possible no outright crudity, like cussing. Less drama, less soap box, less "I am right because I am right", less stubborn statements that whatever anyone else is saying is wrong and irrelevant because it is not what you are saying. Just stick to what you love, not what you hate, and you will be surprised how much more cordial and fun chatting will become, and how it will lead to agreement, rather than tension.
You also were the one that have provided statements showing yourself as a someone who disagrees with other males on the matters of attractiveness of the female characters in the videogames, with both Tali and anime.
Being a female gamer does not mean that one won't play a male PC, and romances written for a male PC. Finally, we all will play with the same squad, that has a limited number of characters, so we all are curious what species they are and how they look like. Hence the interest in the female squad mates is perfectly natural from anyone who plans to play Andromeda.
I honestly doubt anyone really wants Cora to look like a-girl-next-door aka Sara (whose face is customizable). Tbh, Sara does have your main prerequisite of feminine beauty, the pony tail. And, yes, I know it's not her hair, it's her face that in this case is under scrutiny.
Again, I am sure Cora will be at least very pretty if not an outright pageant beauty or a slightly more down to earth take on Asian anime.
I never said that what fangirls do (fuss about their LIs) is wrong. I only made a point that it's women that tend to do that and not men. Feminists I already talked a lot about, and I will say negative things about them, because the negativity is valid. I respect early XX century feminists a lot. What it has become nowdays? Not at all. And you're saying I disagree on matter of attractiveness of Tali again, whereas I said few post ago that I consider her fairly attractive myself (as I romanced her) and I think she is a character that majority men would find attractive (due to her traits and body before face reveal, and then her revealed face only expands on that). And you missed the part where I said that while I can consider someone unattractive myself, I can recognize that most men would find her attractive. That's the case with anime. My point about attractive women rankings gives great example of that. I know that just because someone is female it doesn't mean she won't play MC or romance female characters. But most people who will play as male and romance females will be straight males and it will be an overwhelming majority, I can assure you of that. It's only natural said romanceable characters should be attractive to that group first and foremost. And I certainly hope you're true on Cora, because I'm done with not having anyone even remotely attractive to romance in a game from studio which is nowdays known mostly for romance in their games. Seriously, I don't demand top models. As I said before, I meet a lot of women who are universally beautiful every day and they're real, normal women, not some superstars that end up on magazine covers. So why all females BW makes since Inquisition have to be so unattractive. It's not that they're of average beauty and I demand models, it's that they're straight up unattractive for a large majority. I'm not overly picky, I almost always find someone to romance in any game featuring it, yet I didn't romance anyone in Inquisition, a game from a studio that probably puts the most focus on romance in all the industry, and neither did any of my friends. It was a precedence and unless Cora turns out to be good looking Andromeda will continue the trend.
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Post by fialka on Dec 6, 2016 15:20:11 GMT
Which brings up the question: why does this seem to be such a big deal to so many men, and men specifically? Because men like visual attractiveness and women search for other qualities? I guess we'll never know, some secrets should be never uncovered. So... in others words, men are inherently shallow, and women aren't? Alright then, Bioware, here's how to focus your resources from now on: For the female LIs just focus on making them as hot as possible. And then funnel all your best writing and character building into the guys. They can look however. Works for me (In case it's not obvious, this post is a joke.)
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Post by SofaJockey on Dec 6, 2016 15:33:42 GMT
These threads are sometimes best watched rather than participated in
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readher
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
Posts: 203 Likes: 171
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Post by readher on Dec 6, 2016 15:39:41 GMT
These threads are sometimes best watched rather than participated in It sure saves you nerves
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Post by Ahriman on Dec 6, 2016 16:11:09 GMT
Because men like visual attractiveness and women search for other qualities? I guess we'll never know, some secrets should be never uncovered. So... in others words, men are inherently shallow, and women aren't? Right on the spot.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2016 17:21:05 GMT
So... in others words, men are inherently shallow, and women aren't? Right on the spot. at least you admit it.
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