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Post by masterwarderz on Dec 11, 2016 3:33:28 GMT
Oi! o.o If anything I'm the Yandere archetype. Catch my eye and like a cat with a shiny, squeaky bauble I will never let go. Yanderes are sweet on the outside though. While you might be obsessive, you seem to fit the tsundere archetype much better. Tsunderes can be obsessive as well. Erm. They don't have to be. ._. I mean they can be just as blunt and crude as anyone. But sure they can be pleasant. Just as anyone else can be, but that's just a secondary trait, what defines them is obsession and devotion to a single party over all others. You could say it's the highest form of monogamy Besides I dislike the Tsundere trope. If you like someone why hide it? If your infatuated you should be open with that and express your feelings, and that's that. Also Tsundere have the habit of beating up their love interests out of petty embarrassment or anger. To be frank? That's retarded. Tsundere rarely gain my approval as characters.
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Post by masterwarderz on Dec 11, 2016 3:50:16 GMT
I think it was better to live in ignorance... These character traits rarely come to the west in modern literature. ._. Mores a pity for it too.
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Post by Verro on Dec 11, 2016 4:12:17 GMT
Yanderes are sweet on the outside though. While you might be obsessive, you seem to fit the tsundere archetype much better. Tsunderes can be obsessive as well. Erm. They don't have to be. ._. I mean they can be just as blunt and crude as anyone. But sure they can be pleasant. Just as anyone else can be, but that's just a secondary trait, what defines them is obsession and devotion to a single party over all others. You could say it's the highest form of monogamy Besides I dislike the Tsundere trope. If you like someone why hide it? If your infatuated you should be open with that and express your feelings, and that's that. Also Tsundere have the habit of beating up their love interests out of petty embarrassment or anger. To be frank? That's retarded. Tsundere rarely gain my approval as characters. ''They don't have to be.
._. I mean they can be just as blunt and crude as anyone.''
I've yet to see one that is though.
''what defines them is obsession and devotion to a single party over all others.''To the point of being crazy and violent about it. Tsunderes are just as obsessive as yanderes. Difference is tsundere obsessiveness doesn't lead to stabbings. ''Besides I dislike the Tsundere trope.
If you like someone why hide it? If your infatuated you should be open with that and express your feelings, and that's that.
Also Tsundere have the habit of beating up their love interests out of petty embarrassment or anger. To be frank? That's retarded.
Tsundere rarely gain my approval as characters.''Reinforcing my opinion of you, that you're a tsundere.
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Post by masterwarderz on Dec 11, 2016 4:24:31 GMT
Erm. They don't have to be. ._. I mean they can be just as blunt and crude as anyone. But sure they can be pleasant. Just as anyone else can be, but that's just a secondary trait, what defines them is obsession and devotion to a single party over all others. You could say it's the highest form of monogamy Besides I dislike the Tsundere trope. If you like someone why hide it? If your infatuated you should be open with that and express your feelings, and that's that. Also Tsundere have the habit of beating up their love interests out of petty embarrassment or anger. To be frank? That's retarded. Tsundere rarely gain my approval as characters. ''They don't have to be.
._. I mean they can be just as blunt and crude as anyone.''
I've yet to see one that is though.
''what defines them is obsession and devotion to a single party over all others.''To the point of being crazy and violent about it. Tsunderes are just as obsessive as yanderes. Difference is tsundere obsessiveness doesn't lead to stabbings. ''Besides I dislike the Tsundere trope.
If you like someone why hide it? If your infatuated you should be open with that and express your feelings, and that's that.
Also Tsundere have the habit of beating up their love interests out of petty embarrassment or anger. To be frank? That's retarded.
Tsundere rarely gain my approval as characters.''Reinforcing my opinion of you, that you're a tsundere. *Nods* fair enough. Think what you will.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2016 6:52:07 GMT
Shepard wasn't strong enough? I think that protagonists of this type that you can customize to your liking would be the closest you can come to appeasing everyone. Yup, this is what I was going to post. And the more customizable the character is (looks, personality, everything), the more people you'll please. One of the worst things about Star Wars: TFA is Rey being ridiculously good at everything. Luke and Anakin took years of training to hone their abilities and they had pitfalls (Luke lost is fucking arm too, BTW) whereas she just does everything perfectly with no training at all. From combat, to engineering, to piloting, to using the force.
Kylo Ren wiped out Luke's Jedi academy and he's been been taught by the incredibly powerful sith for years, and she more than matches him with, again, no training whatsoever.
Hell she even teaches Han how to fix the Millennium Falcon. Yea, no. About Rey: I'd say you're only partly right. It's not true she has no training/experience with combat, engineering, and piloting. She does have some experience with all of those things.
While she's very good with a staff, this visibly translates to only being moderately good with a saber and pretty bad with a blaster. It's also worth noting that Ren wasn't trying to kill her, he was trying to fight her into submission/turn her and was injured.
She has a lot of experience with engineering/mechanics, including some knowledge of the Falcon specifically. While I grant it's a bit odd for her to fix it faster than Han, Han isn't used to having some guy install compressors and the like on his ship; Rey is familiar with those things.
And let's not forget that force-sensitives generally make great pilots due to having incredible (prescient, even) reflexes and "reaction time". I don't think her piloting the Falcon was any more out-there than Anakin being a very good pod racer at 9 years old or Luke being able to fly an X-Wing with no training because the design shares many things in common with what he'd piloted before. Not to mention Rey still managed to knock the Falcon into some things.
So I'd say the only thing that she might be a bit too good at is using the force, considering everyone else, even Anakin, took longer to attune their senses and skills.
But with all that in mind, I think people are blowing her "Mary Sue-ness" out of proportion, fairly unsurprisingly. I have no proof of course, but based on the patterns I've seen, I think Rey gets more hate than she deserves partly because she's a female protagonist (and partly because it's Star Wars, a lot to live up to). I think if she was another guy, she'd get less hate and be called a "Mary Sue" less, considering there are plenty of male characters with these traits that just don't end up getting that much criticism in my experience. It's more controversial to have a female lead, which is stupid beyond words, but it's how it is, and controversial characters will get analyzed more deeply.
It will be interesting to see the reaction to Jin Urso, whom I personally have no opinion on before I see the movie.
An explanation after the fact is much less satisfying than a well written story. The problem with TFA is more than just this character or that, it's more that the plot of TFA is largely an inferior reboot of "A New Hope". Considering how much potentially good material was just open and ready for the writers of this movie in the SW extended universe, going with an inferior reboot instead of making something even remotely original is simply an inexcusable cash-grab.Well, they did say they wanted to do something fairly familiar first (it has been over a decade since the prequels and 3 since the originals after all), and mix it up with something original for the next films, so we'll just have to see if they live up to that. Personally, I didn't really mind it being a bit familiar, especially because it was obvious how aware the writers were about that, for instance: "So how do we blow it up? There's always a way to do that." You should just ... I genuinely think we live in 2 entirely different universes I so wish I could explore your mind (well, maybe not ) and see what has made you think like that
Frozen is clichéd feminist tripe??? Have you even seen the movie???
There are 2 scenes which could MAYBE if you go fully nuts could somehow translate in the right mind as being feminist, but I think there has been a misunderstanding somewhere
Scene a)
Hans is going to kill Elsa, and Anna sacrifices herself (well, kinda) to save her sisters life, blocking Hans' sword with her hand which turns into ice, instead of going to Kristoff and sharing a true loves kiss to save herself
What it could be interpreted as: I dont need a man! Men suck!
What it actually is: Anna prioritizing her sister over herself/maybe romance with Kristoff (which is a super logical decision actually, since she hasnt known Kristoff for so long and her sister is gonna die if she doesnt do anything... like seriously her sister is gonna DIE... its a no brainer )
Scene
"The only frozen heart around here is yours" *punch*
What it could be interpreted as: A strong woman showing how physically superior she is to the stupid man by punching him and making him fall off the side of the boat
What it actually is: the villain getting what he deserves, which only happens in like... 99% of movies ever made regardless of the genders of the protagonists
Plus, if you also use like the same crazy logic that would have to be used to even come close to being clichéd feminist tripe, youd come to a completely different crazy conclusion
Quote:
"You dont tell him what to do, I do!" - Kristoff to Anna, when she tries to tell Sven to jump, showing that a man can do whatever he want with his own possessions
Also "For The First Time In Forever" (my favorite Frozen song) is literally just about how desperate Anna is for a man
"Fixer Upper" is a song telling Anna to settle for a less-than-perfect man (although it does get turned around part way through when its said that Anna is already engaged)... not exactly the most pro-woman thing to sing about (although what can you expect from trolls )
Also, Hans tricks Anna, and planned to marry her to gain power, showing that getting married to a woman is only a good thing if you marry into a higher social status... so you know, women are just there so men can get power, its the only logical conclusion ofc
Also, a woman has to ask a man for help to walk up a mountain, he also saves her life during the wolf scene (then she also saves his, so I guess thats equal)... also Kristoff is like the voice of reason through the entire movie, instead of women because women are ofc too emotional to think logically
Hans also (after revealing his plan to Anna), leaves her to die, where she gets saved by Olaf (a snowMAN), showing that women cant look after themselves without male help
And Elsa endangers quite a lot of people in the movie, her sister being one of them, showing that women are emotionally unstable
... believe it or not, a movie can just be... a movie
So yeah, make silly comments and youll get silly comments in return
And while its safe to say Frozen isnt the type of movie youd probably be into (youre probably a tad out of its target audience... although then again so am I since its probably for people younger than 27 but I still love it ) but it isnt a feminist movie... it has female protagonists, but thats literally all and as I said about Star Wars up there "not everything with a female character in is about feminism... you know that right???" And as I also said, Frozen is about the lengths that 2 sisters go to look after each other, its about love between siblings, and it also touches on some pretty mature subjects for a Disney movie, Elsa especially in all of her beautifulness its designed to make people happy, and its a beautiful movie... it only teaches positive things, and is INSANELY quotable
So yeah, Frozen
Its beautiful, and has well portrayed female protagonists
True facts
And that right there is what I was illustrating above: That there are so many interpretations of these things, and a lot of them are overthinking things, while a great deal more are under-thinking them. What do you choose to see? It's good that you can do a thought experiment where you make points for another side, even if you know they're dumb points Without knowing what the writers were thinking/intending specifically while making these scenes (and the ones in Star Wars and everything else), I feel like we're all underequipped to debate them. Edit: Quoting/spoiler-tag troubles There are so many interpretations of things yup I have the tendency to look at things less from a developer/writer perspective and more from the perspective of the characters... because if a movie/game/whatever is a good one you can do that and its good so eh I admit, I over think things a lot, but theres fun to be had in that well, sometimes... depends on your type of over thinking I guess Especially with what ive seen said about Frozen and TFA, I genuinely wonder if peoples opinions about other things in life have a tendency to suck the life and the beauty out of some movies (Frozen in particular here because its just so beautiful I mean if theyre looking at movies they dont like and judging them from a particular perspective and ignoring like everything else using the same kind of logic... ofc theyre not gonna have a positive opinion on it Frozen might be my favorite movie ever made
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2016 7:10:26 GMT
You really think so? Ultimately I lack the inclination nor motivation to engage over this movie, but suffice to say its narrative instantly turned me sour to it, I don't like the original source material, why would I like the watered down run off? Also the one dimensional characters, last minute villain revelations, comic conclusion all in all just remind me of what Disney has been pumping out for decades, abet in more interesting formats. Though you did stumble on one point of contention, not every female lead provides feminist narrative, no but when the hacky writer and director of the flick is themselves a feminist, I really need no other explanation for the plot of the movie. The one writing it is responsible for it. I suggest folks just read the god awful story by Hans Andersen for a less modern politically motivated narrative, its still cliched bullshit, but at the least its time period specific cliched bullshit and lacks the modern infection of Progressivism in it. One dimensional characters isnt true whatsoever, like at all Ok so, I would love to be an author/writer, and when I start writing not every character I write and not every plot I write agrees with me in some way... one of the most recent ones basically has a segment where the protagonist is talking to her kid and says something along the lines of "ive murdered a lot of people, but its ok, Im a good mom" ... I dont agree with that If you look for one explanation, youll only find that explanation and be blind to everything else open mind, open heart and ill convert you to a Frozen fanboy yet (that was a joke) Or was it??? *prepares Frozen Fanmaker 5000*
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Post by Shinobu on Dec 11, 2016 18:54:40 GMT
Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind Moana Judy Hopps Marge Gunderson Ellen Ripley Buffy Sarah Connor
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Post by CrutchCricket on Dec 11, 2016 19:35:00 GMT
Funny thing about Sarah Connor- when people try to hold her up as some feminist ideal Linda Hamilton slams them down. Because in T2, Connor is a broken, emanciated shell of a woman haunted by the apocalypse and slowly becoming the thing she hates and fears so much. Maybe don't use her as a role model for your daughter?
Not pictured above: strong woman who don't need no man.
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Post by masterwarderz on Dec 11, 2016 19:38:08 GMT
Funny thing about Sarah Connor- when people try to hold her up as some feminist ideal Linda Hamilton slams them down. Because in T2, Connor is a broken, emanciated shell of a woman haunted by the apocalypse and slowly becoming the thing she hates and fears so much. Maybe don't use her as a role model for your daughter? Not pictured above: strong woman who don't need no man. Underworld is a shitty music video turned film franchise tbh
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Post by CrutchCricket on Dec 11, 2016 19:42:55 GMT
Underworld is a shitty music video turned film franchise tbh That was still talking about Sarah Connor. I knew I should've quoted. Underworld was awesome until they got rid of two thirds of what made it good: Bill Nighy and Michael Sheen. I love Kate Beckinsale but even her in leather can't make up for shitty writing and boring plot.
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Post by masterwarderz on Dec 11, 2016 19:47:34 GMT
Underworld is a shitty music video turned film franchise tbh That was still talking about Sarah Connor. I knew I should've quoted. Underworld was awesome until they got rid of two thirds of what made it good: Bill Nighy and Michael Sheen. I love Kate Beckinsale but even her in leather can't make up for shitty writing and boring plot.
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Post by PATPATPATlol on Dec 11, 2016 21:28:49 GMT
I want a strong female protagonist to have her way with me
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Post by fylimar on Dec 19, 2016 22:14:13 GMT
About Clarice Starling: After reading the end of Hannibal, I'm a bit biased about her. But for most parts, she is a strong female character.
Most women in A Song of Ice and Fire (more than in the tv show imo) are very strong - Brienne, Arya, Daenerys, Catlyn, Asha, the Sand Snakes (only the book version), Sansa - they are all brave and strong in different ways
All the women in Firefly were very strong
Delenn and Ivanova in Babylon 5
And also she is a sidekick, I have to mention Donna Noble from Doctor Who. After all the young, doe eyed companions, she was like a fresh wind, being realistsic and idealistic at the same time and not being so amazed by the Doctor, that she didn't give him hell, when he deserved it.
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Post by Lady Artifice on Dec 20, 2016 0:53:03 GMT
It's in vogue, as is often the case, to say "Oh, these people today..."
The reality, however, is an impulse toward fault finding is part of human nature. It was always the case, and it always will be. The priorities of a society can shift, but not as much as people seem to assume.
With fictional characters, the question has always been, "Does this character please and interest me?"
Personal politics have always been part of that. Stories like Pride and Prejudice, Anne of Green Gables, and Little Women got almost as much of it as modern stories do. The only difference is, back then their only resource, if any, was to rant at the writers via the mail.
Nowadays we can all rant at each other about it too.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2016 2:11:18 GMT
I have always thought that Anne Parillaud played out a script that was a great balance for a female protagonist. It seems to me there is a big difference in books and movies or alternate media, especially in the US. US protagonists tend to be very pretty instead of fitting into the norm or average for appearance and that is bound to skew the overall weighting of a role.
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Post by KingDarious BBB on Dec 20, 2016 2:29:03 GMT
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Post by Sweet FA on Dec 20, 2016 2:57:17 GMT
This actor took an established male sci-fi character and she transformed it into an altogether tougher character............
Katee Sackhoff as Kara Thrace "Starbuck" BSG
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Post by CrutchCricket on Dec 20, 2016 15:44:48 GMT
All the women in Firefly were very strong Delenn and Ivanova in Babylon 5 All of B5's women were well written and not to be trifled with in their own way I think. Catherine Sakai, Talia Winters, Lyta Alexander, Na'Toth. Firefly is also a good example.
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Post by fylimar on Dec 20, 2016 16:08:29 GMT
All the women in Firefly were very strong Delenn and Ivanova in Babylon 5 All of B5's women were well written and not to be trifled with in their own way I think. Catherine Sakai, Talia Winters, Lyta Alexander, Na'Toth. Firefly is also a good example. You are right of course with the Babylon 5 women - I would add Timov to the list, but since the thread was about leading ladies, I restrained myself from naming them all, although they deserve it
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Post by Hier0phant on Dec 20, 2016 16:10:57 GMT
This actor took an established male sci-fi character and she transformed it into an altogether tougher character............ Katee Sackhoff as Kara Thrace "Starbuck" BSG She would have made a good Carol Danvers.
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Post by Kenny Bania on Dec 20, 2016 16:21:27 GMT
This actor took an established male sci-fi character and she transformed it into an altogether tougher character............ Katee Sackhoff as Kara Thrace "Starbuck" BSG Starbuck sucked. Nearly put me off the show. Nearly.
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Post by masterwarderz on Dec 20, 2016 18:48:23 GMT
Got ruined by shit writing.
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Post by o Ventus on Dec 20, 2016 19:08:33 GMT
I think a female protagonist, for most any kind of story that is not a sappy romance, would need to be "strong" by default. Not to say that a female can't be strong in a sappy romance, but those stories do not typically feature much in the way of physical conflict and possible death. Of course this isn't even a gendered issue, in any story with a violent conflict that the protagonist takes part in, they must be strong, either physically or mentally or both, regardless of their gender.
That said, some of my favorites include Ellen Ripley (as well as her daughter Amanda Ripley), Princess Kitana, Wonder Woman, and Samantha Byrne.
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Post by Arijon van Goyen on Dec 20, 2016 20:16:51 GMT
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Post by masterwarderz on Dec 20, 2016 21:35:09 GMT
Wasn't she all smoochie smoochie with Baird?
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