leafspring
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by leafspring on Dec 20, 2016 12:06:52 GMT
Since this might not be that interesting for most people, I'll give a quick tl;dr:
OP's building a Google Docs-based database with all the character, power, weapon, enemy, etc. information for MEAMP that can be used for creating calculators, charts and whatever else people come up with.
Back in the prime days of ME3MP and BSN, a couple people (myself included) built calculators for specific purposes (damage-optimization, builds, survivability, enemy stats etc.). I think most of them were based on Google Docs while some were web-based. Mine was part of the latter category which is also the reason why it's no longer available (thanks, server f*ckup). The problem was that most of these had their own database behind them, so a lot of time was wasted inputting data that someone else already had and pretty much neither of them contained all the data. For this reason I planned on creating a database that contains all the relevant data once the next Mass Effect MP comes around. I think I even made a post about that on the old BSN but that was a couple years ago. Now with Andromeda at the doorstep, I started building said database. Since there's no actual information available on Andromeda MP right now, I'm using the ME3 content to gauge what fields and categories it probably needs. Once the beta hits, I'll be able to adjust it to the actual content. It will definitely contain the following:- Characters
- Weapons
- Passive Abilities/Stat Changes (think Fitness evolutions and the like)
- Active Abilities
- Gear
- Attachments
- Consumeables
- Enemies
I'm also thinking about including maps with spawns, wave data and other stuff (whatever that might be). As a framework I use Google Docs (Sheets) to be independent from rented servers and because most calculators/tools (if there will be any that is) will likely be using Google Docs as well. Also, Sheets allows a data export as JSON, so even if someone wants to use the database for a web-based service, they could do that. The preliminary database layout is pretty much done and I'm now checking against ME3 if I could represent all relevant information from that game. That should be a pretty accurate estimation of what's still missing. Once the db contains actual information on Andromeda, I'll post a link to the it so it can be used by anyone who's interested (btw. IMPORTRANGE allows importing data into a Sheet frome external sources). I will also use this post for updates/changelogs etc. once the time comes. Until then feel free to share your own ideas on what the database should contain because I'm sure there are things I didn't think of.
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Post by SofaJockey on Dec 20, 2016 12:29:32 GMT
This is a wonderful idea, leafspring if you need mod support to increase accessibility, just say.
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franken
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age Inquistion
PSN: the-franken
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Post by franken on Dec 20, 2016 16:25:34 GMT
I guess it would just fall under passive abilities, but hidden attributes like acceleration, strafe, and top run speed are always nice to know. Maybe note which weapons can/can't pierce cover with mods since that isn't really explicitly stated in game. Hopefully Bioware will disable equipping weapon mods that do literally nothing for a gun in Andromeda, but that might not happen. It would be really nice to see if a mod works at a glance in a fan-made character builder if it isn't already made explicit in game.
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leafspring
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by leafspring on Dec 20, 2016 19:00:37 GMT
This is a wonderful idea, leafspring if you need mod support to increase accessibility, just say. Thanks a lot. (though I'm not entirely sure what you mean with increased accessibility) I guess it would just fall under passive abilities, but hidden attributes like acceleration, strafe, and top run speed are always nice to know. Maybe note which weapons can/can't pierce cover with mods since that isn't really explicitly stated in game. Hopefully Bioware will disable equipping weapon mods that do literally nothing for a gun in Andromeda, but that might not happen. It would be really nice to see if a mod works at a glance in a fan-made character builder if it isn't already made explicit in game. I added run, walk and strafe speed as these are indeed interesting character specifics. Not so sure about acceleration, though, because that might turn out to be a lot of different entries (idle -> walk, walk -> run, idle -> strafe, whatever -> jet pack etc.) with potentially very little use. But I guess that depends on how much difference it actually makes in the game. And good point about the piercing - added that as well as a flag for headshots.
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Post by SofaJockey on Dec 20, 2016 20:08:27 GMT
This is a wonderful idea, leafspring if you need mod support to increase accessibility, just say. Thanks a lot. (though I'm not entirely sure what you mean with increased accessibility) I guess it would just fall under passive abilities, but hidden attributes like acceleration, strafe, and top run speed are always nice to know. Maybe note which weapons can/can't pierce cover with mods since that isn't really explicitly stated in game. Hopefully Bioware will disable equipping weapon mods that do literally nothing for a gun in Andromeda, but that might not happen. It would be really nice to see if a mod works at a glance in a fan-made character builder if it isn't already made explicit in game. I added run, walk and strafe speed as these are indeed interesting character specifics. Not so sure about acceleration, though, because that might turn out to be a lot of different entries (idle -> walk, walk -> run, idle -> strafe, whatever -> jet pack etc.) with potentially very little use. But I guess that depends on how much difference it actually makes in the game. And good point about the piercing - added that as well as a flag for headshots. I could sticky it when the time is right
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glitch89
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I'm sorry. Yes. Energy field good.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: ByteHalf
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Post by glitch89 on Dec 21, 2016 1:22:27 GMT
Nice. I'm pretty sure this will come in handy for many people.
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leafspring
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by leafspring on Dec 21, 2016 13:26:38 GMT
Thanks a lot. (though I'm not entirely sure what you mean with increased accessibility) I added run, walk and strafe speed as these are indeed interesting character specifics. Not so sure about acceleration, though, because that might turn out to be a lot of different entries (idle -> walk, walk -> run, idle -> strafe, whatever -> jet pack etc.) with potentially very little use. But I guess that depends on how much difference it actually makes in the game. And good point about the piercing - added that as well as a flag for headshots. I could sticky it when the time is right I kinda figured as much (after I had posted reply of course). I guess we'll see where things go and if it turns out the way it's supposed to. And if it does, a sticky would be awesome.
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Post by Cyonan on Dec 21, 2016 21:28:25 GMT
I think by the end of ME3MP I was maintaining most of the google docs sheets which included weapon stats, enemy stats, and enemy spawns.
I'm planning on taking up my datamining ways again once ME:A launches. I've even considered using a personal site to host all of the data because google sheets did a number of things which really bothered me back in those days, and I've had that site sitting there for years not doing much beyond a few web development tests I needed over the years.
Though as a host for others to pull the data from, it might be better to use Google's pre-existing stuff rather than recreate a whole thing myself.
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leafspring
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Post by leafspring on Dec 21, 2016 23:58:01 GMT
I remember you from the BSN days - did some great work back then. We had a couple exchanges about the mechanics (damage reduction in particular I think) as well if I remember correctly.
The problem I see with using anything other than Google Docs is mostly the accessibility. Anyone can use Sheets and import data from other docs but few people are familiar with writing PHP or the like against an SQL database. Plus they'd need proper hosting of the resulting web pages as well. A possible solution would be having scripts automatically generate XML or CSV files from the database that can be used in Google Docs. But that seems like an awful lot of work for something that could be simply done with Sheets instead.
Anyway, if you'll be around data-mining as well, it probably makes sense to coordinate the efforts in some way. No use in acquiring and providing the same data twice...
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TheThirdRace
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MEA MP Builder
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: TheThirdRace
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Post by TheThirdRace on Dec 22, 2016 2:43:49 GMT
It would be a great help yes.
I'm currently laying the ground work for a complete web builder. I've been working on the project for a while now and I should be ready when the game comes out. As soon as the game comes out, I start the builder UI design, enter the data and it should be ready within the first 2 to 4 weeks from release.
I don't want to give up too much information just yet, but this is a big project (3+ years of support, etc.). I intend it to be THE reference for builds on MEA:MP.
So any work done on your part to get that data would be greatly appreciated.
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leafspring
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Post by leafspring on Dec 22, 2016 18:41:26 GMT
Now that's one hell of tease right there... Two to four weeks after release sounds like a reasonable timeframe to gather the data and provide it in decent form. I'm also working on adding something similar to views from the database world (basically metatables aggregating data from the actual data tables for ease of use). If you let me know what you need (and how), I can keep that in mind when creating those and also come up with a good way to access the data (it sounds like you're planning on an independent web project, not something within Google Docs). If you want to stay independent instead, though, and just copy the data over manually, that's fine too of course.
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Post by SofaJockey on Dec 22, 2016 19:10:40 GMT
Whatever you guys do, we'd like to make sure people can see it, use it and discuss it.
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TheThirdRace
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MEA MP Builder
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: TheThirdRace
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Post by TheThirdRace on Dec 22, 2016 20:20:24 GMT
Yes, the builder will be an independent web project entirely. It's my own website, built from the ground up.
I started the project with the goal of offering a MEAMP builder and adding features that have been sorely missing in the previous builder for ME3MP and DAIMP. We'll see how it goes...
As for what I'll need, obviously the data is extremely important. I'll use JSON so if the google docs can export in that format then I should be able to use it as a base.
If you want, we could have a Skype call between us after the game is out so we can coordinate our efforts. Ideally, if we can zero in the best way to present the data, that data could be used for multiple projects.
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Heroicmass
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XBL Gamertag: HeroicMass
Prime Posts: Not sure
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Post by Heroicmass on Dec 22, 2016 21:40:09 GMT
in all seriousness, you guys do wonderful work
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leafspring
N2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by leafspring on Dec 22, 2016 22:05:00 GMT
Can't wait to see what you're coming up with.
As for data access - there's an add-on to export sheets to a JSON-file so that part seems to be covered. Once the beta hits and I know what table layouts are needed exactly, I can provide you with a database schema as well as a sample JSON you can use for testing and feedback.
And if I'm lucky enough to actively take part in the beta, it might even contain proper data.^^
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Post by Cyonan on Dec 22, 2016 23:05:36 GMT
I remember you from the BSN days - did some great work back then. We had a couple exchanges about the mechanics (damage reduction in particular I think) as well if I remember correctly. The problem I see with using anything other than Google Docs is mostly the accessibility. Anyone can use Sheets and import data from other docs but few people are familiar with writing PHP or the like against an SQL database. Plus they'd need proper hosting of the resulting web pages as well. A possible solution would be having scripts automatically generate XML or CSV files from the database that can be used in Google Docs. But that seems like an awful lot of work for something that could be simply done with Sheets instead. Anyway, if you'll be around data-mining as well, it probably makes sense to coordinate the efforts in some way. No use in acquiring and providing the same data twice... Exporting a database to CSV is actually a pretty easy thing to do, but I still think despite that that it would be easier to just do everything via google sheets since it does a whole lot of extra stuff for us that wouldn't need to be rebuilt from scratch. It'd be nice to be able to datamine the beta test and see what I could get out of it, but from the looks of things it wont be on PC which is the platform I'm on.
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Post by Pearl on Dec 23, 2016 2:23:07 GMT
It'd be nice to be able to datamine the beta test and see what I could get out of it, but from the looks of things it wont be on PC which is the platform I'm on. Assuming I make it in to the beta, I'll be taking as many notes as I can. Unfortunately it'll all be hand-testing so it wouldn't be suitable for database/spreadsheet entry in my opinion, but I want to be able to provide enough info so that people can get a general idea of everything (assuming Bioware doesn't do something like a discussion embargo).
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MEA MP Builder
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: TheThirdRace
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Post by TheThirdRace on Dec 23, 2016 3:28:10 GMT
It'd be nice to be able to datamine the beta test and see what I could get out of it, but from the looks of things it wont be on PC which is the platform I'm on. Assuming I make it in to the beta, I'll be taking as many notes as I can. Unfortunately it'll all be hand-testing so it wouldn't be suitable for database/spreadsheet entry in my opinion, but I want to be able to provide enough info so that people can get a general idea of everything (assuming Bioware doesn't do something like a discussion embargo). "discussion embargo" is mostly to be sure nothing gets in the public view (social media, blogs, gaming news, etc.). I doubt Bioware could track emails between people keeping things under wrap, even if some of those people aren't officially in the Beta. I, for one, would love to get a couple screenshots for the skills so I can have a good idea of how things are organized and start on the builder. I have no intention of releasing anything before the game is out, but it would be very nice to have something ready as soon as the game is out or soon after. I did apply for Beta, but they aren't taking any PC players... Any "contribution" before the game is out would be greatly appreciated, I just want to start working on the project sooner... (this way I get to play more when the game actually releases)
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Post by Pearl on Dec 23, 2016 5:51:20 GMT
Assuming I make it in to the beta, I'll be taking as many notes as I can. Unfortunately it'll all be hand-testing so it wouldn't be suitable for database/spreadsheet entry in my opinion, but I want to be able to provide enough info so that people can get a general idea of everything (assuming Bioware doesn't do something like a discussion embargo). "discussion embargo" is mostly to be sure nothing gets in the public view (social media, blogs, gaming news, etc.). I doubt Bioware could track emails between people keeping things under wrap, even if some of those people aren't officially in the Beta. I, for one, would love to get a couple screenshots for the skills so I can have a good idea of how things are organized and start on the builder. I have no intention of releasing anything before the game is out, but it would be very nice to have something ready as soon as the game is out or soon after. I did apply for Beta, but they aren't taking any PC players... Any "contribution" before the game is out would be greatly appreciated, I just want to start working on the project sooner... (this way I get to play more when the game actually releases) I completely understand how you feel. I'll do what I can, again, assuming I get selected for the beta.
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Post by Cyonan on Dec 23, 2016 5:53:20 GMT
It'd be nice to be able to datamine the beta test and see what I could get out of it, but from the looks of things it wont be on PC which is the platform I'm on. Assuming I make it in to the beta, I'll be taking as many notes as I can. Unfortunately it'll all be hand-testing so it wouldn't be suitable for database/spreadsheet entry in my opinion, but I want to be able to provide enough info so that people can get a general idea of everything (assuming Bioware doesn't do something like a discussion embargo). Given that it's a console beta test I don't imagine as anybody will be able to use any debugging tools to get the specifics anyway. I'd love it if BioWare actually included the numbers in-game for things like weapon stats, but I'm not gonna hold my breath on that one =P A part of me wonders if at least some of the reason that they don't want to do a PC beta test is because of dataminers.
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leafspring
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Post by leafspring on Dec 23, 2016 11:14:28 GMT
It'd be nice to be able to datamine the beta test and see what I could get out of it, but from the looks of things it wont be on PC which is the platform I'm on. Unfortunately it'll all be hand-testing so it wouldn't be suitable for database/spreadsheet entry in my opinion, but I want to be able to provide enough info so that people can get a general idea of everything. That'd be awesome, a "general idea of everything" is exactly what I'm looking for in the beta. I do have a PS4 myself but in case I'm not selected for the beta, it's good to know there'll be someone around feeding us the info. Assuming I make it in to the beta, I'll be taking as many notes as I can. Unfortunately it'll all be hand-testing so it wouldn't be suitable for database/spreadsheet entry in my opinion, but I want to be able to provide enough info so that people can get a general idea of everything (assuming Bioware doesn't do something like a discussion embargo). Given that it's a console beta test I don't imagine as anybody will be able to use any debugging tools to get the specifics anyway. I'd love it if BioWare actually included the numbers in-game for things like weapon stats, but I'm not gonna hold my breath on that one =P A part of me wonders if at least some of the reason that they don't want to do a PC beta test is because of dataminers. Rumor has it that's part of the reason. Though, as someone working in a somewhat similar field, I'd guess that it's mostly just the amount of work a PC beta requires compared to a console release. As for the debugging tools: I'm not sure that'll actually be possible even with the PC version. With ME3 BioWare didn't really give a crap about protecting the game from reverse engineering and hacking, but with MEA things might be different. I wouldn't be surprised if they actively prevent debugging measures this time around.
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Post by Cyonan on Dec 23, 2016 18:19:26 GMT
]Rumor has it that's part of the reason. Though, as someone working in a somewhat similar field, I'd guess that it's mostly just the amount of work a PC beta requires compared to a console release. As for the debugging tools: I'm not sure that'll actually be possible even with the PC version. With ME3 BioWare didn't really give a crap about protecting the game from reverse engineering and hacking, but with MEA things might be different. I wouldn't be surprised if they actively prevent debugging measures this time around. Well they wont be able to prevent us from poking around in the game files. The Frostbite Engine is a bit harder to work with than the Unreal Engine was, but that's not going to stop us from getting into it which we already did with DA:I. Though they might not be as okay with letting me use the memory scanning software in multiplayer. If that's the case, I'm sure I'll still find a way to run those tests.
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leafspring
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Post by leafspring on Dec 23, 2016 19:51:45 GMT
]Rumor has it that's part of the reason. Though, as someone working in a somewhat similar field, I'd guess that it's mostly just the amount of work a PC beta requires compared to a console release. As for the debugging tools: I'm not sure that'll actually be possible even with the PC version. With ME3 BioWare didn't really give a crap about protecting the game from reverse engineering and hacking, but with MEA things might be different. I wouldn't be surprised if they actively prevent debugging measures this time around. Well they wont be able to prevent us from poking around in the game files. They could if they wanted to but that'd be a lot of effort for pretty much no gain (no harm at all in extracting some stats from files). And if they didn't do it for DAI I don't see why they'd start with MEA. By the way: What tools are you using for live memory access?
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Post by Cyonan on Dec 23, 2016 21:26:29 GMT
Well they wont be able to prevent us from poking around in the game files. They could if they wanted to but that'd be a lot of effort for pretty much no gain (no harm at all in extracting some stats from files). And if they didn't do it for DAI I don't see why they'd start with MEA. By the way: What tools are you using for live memory access? It's also the engine that every EA studio uses so they'd want to naturally protect it against people trying to hack it for games like say, Battlefield, but if they haven't protected it to that level by now I don't see them doing it just for ME:A. They're probably happy with what it's currently at. I can't actually remember the name of the software I used, though it could technically have been used to cheat. I used to lock the HP of certain enemies so I wouldn't kill them, and such things could have been applied to my own HP so that I couldn't ever die. BioWare was just forgiving about letting me use those tools to run my tests.
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Post by geezer117 on Dec 27, 2016 20:40:05 GMT
I found info on dodge and melee to be useful. Like DR and speed.
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