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Post by Catilina on Sept 21, 2017 19:13:06 GMT
I was so angry about it, I kicked Anders out of the party for two rl days. I don't want to see his face. Justice murdered two innocents whom he professed he was defending. When I finally came to see Anders he's like ... ' Woe is me, I'm so sorry I killed that poor woman. I hope her relatives will think the Templars are responsible for her death..." He can take his fake sorry and stick it where I want to put his staff. Because for all his sorry, if I were to tell him that Justice is using his body to commit crimes and he needs to consider the means of separating Justice from him, I have no doubt Anders would fight me to death. OMG, I'm so glad I'm not the only one that heard that. It's out of scene and folks were saying they'd never heard it, and then defended his saying it as well, when it was the most disgusting cowardly thing ever to say. EVER. @_@ I know this sentence, while, as I remember only once happened in my worlds. This may be a coward thinking, but Anders is not a coward, he risks his life in every day in Kirkwall, he doesn't fear the death, but he fears because of his purpose, and here seems this is a very practical thinking. He committed this murder, what can risk his goal, if it turns out. Seems everything against his cause: Ella's death, Justice's unpredictability, the blood mages... But he believes, that his fight is right. If he gives up this fight, everything was meaningless: the merging with Justice, and all his efforts for it, so far. And Otto Alric was guilty. One or more murder on his invoice, no matter. Anders has his doubts, and his fears, he feels bad, but if it needs, he really cold and determined. Remember, before Dissent, in the clinic, when Hawke tell him, that he doesn't want to lose him, due of Justice and the mage-issues, he says: "Nothing else inside me". This isn't fully right, but still shows, how much he insist to it.
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Post by phoray on Sept 21, 2017 19:17:24 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2017 19:37:38 GMT
*hits DA2 with a shovel* How dare you be so GOOD that you're making me feel so bad about all these characters!
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Post by phoray on Sept 21, 2017 19:40:40 GMT
*hits DA2 with a shovel* How dare you be so GOOD that you're making me feel so bad about all these characters! I love DA2. have played it fully 3 times, still haven't seen everything. I become more and more attached to Fenris, more and more angry at Anders.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 21, 2017 19:47:59 GMT
Justice doesn't coming out, if Anders able to controlling himself. Only he emerges, if Anders out of control, or perhaps, if he needs help. Anders was able to handle the situation. This situation wasn't dangerous, Cullen only was idiot, but not attacked them. Why? This is a very good question... bad writing... (how I hate this "explanation") Okay, PERHAPS there's a possible explanation: Anders the healer in the Darktown, and hes work can keep relatively calm the refugees. Perhaps, this is a reason, that the Templars doesn't intervene. Justice doesn't coming out, if Anders able to controlling himself.That's the problem though, Justice comes out for lesser crimes and baits than that. Cullen basically professes support for the tranquility in a no sugar coat way and Anders is shouting a really angry retort, and he's comparing Cullen to the man he went berserk over. If he's as bad as that guy, by Justice logic he needs to be dead. Okay, PERHAPS there's a possible explanation: Anders the healer in the Darktown, and hes work can keep relatively calm the refugees. Perhaps, this is a reason, that the Templars doesn't intervene.
I'm extremely unclear about the rules that apply to apostate mages. Apparently it's not enough to carry a big staff on your back to automatically set a horde of Templars chasing after you. Something needs to be triggered before they react. In which cases do Templars invoke the law to take an apostate to the Circle and in which cases they ignore an apostate standing right under their nose? While being an apostate, from the lawful Templars, does not automatically provoke an attack, it still is Templars' responsibility to find apostates and take them to the Circle. Obviously the Templars show no mercy to the malifecarum who have reports or suspicions against them harming civilians, but if the apostates are not known for specific crimes, than sometimes Templars don't attempt to take them into custody, at least not immediately. I have no idea based on which grounds. Also, I've remembered a detail from the quest where we save Cullen from a possessed recruit. I had Bethany with me and when Cullen punches the recruit, she speak up against him. To which he says something along the lines of, 'I don't need advice from an apostate how to do my job.' So, he IS aware that she's a magic user, but back then makes zero attempt to get her. However, he does show up later if Hawke doesn't take her to the Deep Roads. I guess you could explain that Cullen saw what Hawke could do during the battle and doesn't want to pick a fight 1 vs 4 over an apostate who just saved his life when he has vital information that needs to be reported. But, later you stroll with mages in front of him and he doesn't react either, but neither do all those other Templars. So... I really don't get the rules in which cases the Templars can take a suspect apostate into custody. While it makes little sense, obviously, I'm glad that a fight didn't occur between those two as I like them both. In this case I can't even guarantee I would have backed Anders. Right now I'm FURIOUS with Anders. During that confrontation with Ser A, Justice MURDERED that poor mage woman. Prior to that Justice killed his Tranquil friend. It's interesting how Cullen gets a reputation for harassing mages, but for all the shit he says, I have not yet encountered a scene (I'm not confident there will not be one in the future as Cullen is a psychological mess. I sincerely hope not.) where Cullen would attack a tranquil or run a sword through an unarmed mage who is begging for mercy. Of all the people... Anders does that. I was so angry about it, I kicked Anders out of the party for two rl days. I don't want to see his face. Justice murdered two innocents whom he professed he was defending. When I finally came to see Anders he's like ... 'Woe is me, I'm so sorry I killed that poor woman. I hope her relatives will think the Templars are responsible for her death..." He can take his fake sorry and stick it where I want to put his staff. Because for all his sorry, if I were to tell him that Justice is using his body to commit crimes and he needs to consider the means of separating Justice from him, I have no doubt Anders would fight me to death. My Hawke is the one to talk because I'm RPing the darker one. She refused to save one of the three dwarven brothers in favour of a sword and then lied about it. That's why (well that and I NEED a mage in my damn party) I added Anders back. But, I'm not happy with him atm and I don't want him in my party, just his skills. Next game I will take Topor's deal to have an excuse to attack Justice in the Fade. He has overstayed his welcome in Ander's body and needs to be kicked out of there. Although, I very much doubt he'll be killed in that act. DA2 is vexing me at present. Me at the start of the game: Hurray! I get 3 mages to choose from! Bethany - dies in the Deep Roads. Anders - I murder innocents! xD (Hawke - get out of my party!) Merill - The magic talent tree you've trained me in is USELESS. Also, *grab Hawke's throat* GIMMEGIMMEGIMME back my creepy artifact! I want to fix an obviously demonic looking mirror!!!' I don't trust that blasted mirror. It seriously looks EVIL. I don't trust that crazy kid not to pickpocket my Hawke either for that artifact. I kicked her out of the party too. My Hawke is a useless rogue. I walked around in a crippled party for days that consists of four physical DD because I only half-trust Fenris, Avelyn and Varric. Everyone else is absolutely unreliable. Even my evil Hawke wants to get away from the crazy mages. It's very annoying since that's my favourite class and I heavily rely on mages in fights to get the job done At the moment Justice doesn't feel the danger. Cullen only speaks, and Anders angry, but under control. Don't forget, in Kirkwall, he every day meets with the Tranquils, and knows the Templars' positions about the Tranquility. He's not an uncontrollable abomination, he can handle Justice, true, many times has hard moments... And he doesn't bloodthirsty, nor Justice. In Dissent, there was a direct danger, just as in the Chantry. Justice, not like a human, he in the heat of the battle, easily misunderstood the situation, because he doesn't have any reason to kill her. Hawke can stop him, in friendship and rivalry too, probably not in the neutral zone. And: In Feynriel quest we can see, how Justice behaves if Hawke deals with the sloth demon. He really has a problem with demons. Why do you think, that Justice killed Karl? Not. This was Anders. __________ Kirkwall's Templars are weird. You mentioned Bethany in "Enemies among us" quest, and that Cullen calls her as "Apostate". But if Hawke speaks with him in the Gallows, he only says, that he heard rumors about Hawke/Hawke's sister, and he hopes, that these rumors aren't the truth.
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Post by phoray on Sept 21, 2017 19:51:56 GMT
One flaw of DA2 is Mage Hawke makes no sense considering the hyper vigilant strike fast mentality that Meredith encourages.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 21, 2017 20:00:41 GMT
*hits DA2 with a shovel* How dare you be so GOOD that you're making me feel so bad about all these characters! I love DA2. have played it fully 3 times, still haven't seen everything. I become more and more attached to Fenris, more and more angry at Anders. Hey, Anders/Justice's good, he's the most complicated character! You can love or hate him, he's the best!
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Post by phoray on Sept 21, 2017 20:04:18 GMT
I love DA2. have played it fully 3 times, still haven't seen everything. I become more and more attached to Fenris, more and more angry at Anders. Hey, Anders/Justice's good, he's the most complicated character! You can love or hate him, he's the best! He's only complicated.... BECAUSE HE LET A DEMON INSIDE HIM!
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Post by Catilina on Sept 21, 2017 20:11:54 GMT
One flaw of DA2 is Mage Hawke makes no sense considering the hyper vigilant strike fast mentality that Meredith encourages. I think, this was the intention. Hawke starts as a mage supporter: this clear with his/her background. But later turns out that maybe nothing is so simple. There's many reason to hate mages, not only the Templars (I suppose: not, but many people found his/her own reason). Hawke's whole story's about that. Hawke can be a disappointing burned out person, who doesn't trust even his/her own magic.
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Post by cmoe on Sept 21, 2017 20:12:40 GMT
Hey, Anders/Justice's good, he's the most complicated character! You can love or hate him, he's the best! He's only complicated.... BECAUSE HE LET A DEMON INSIDE HIM! Phoray!!! Really? Must I move all the furniture out of the way?
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Post by Catilina on Sept 21, 2017 20:13:09 GMT
Hey, Anders/Justice's good, he's the most complicated character! You can love or hate him, he's the best! He's only complicated.... BECAUSE HE LET A DEMON INSIDE HIM! "I'm not a demon!" Haha: "I'm not your slave!"
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Post by phoray on Sept 21, 2017 20:18:17 GMT
He's only complicated.... BECAUSE HE LET A DEMON INSIDE HIM! "I'm not a demon!" Haha: "I'm not your slave!" Anders suffers under the mental lashings of a Demon that will never let him rest! help Anders fight against this slavery! Help him maintain his identity in spite of insurmountable odds! And then, when all is lost, put your best friend down when he's nicely asked you to free him from the constant battle of trying to be Anders underneath all that Vengeance!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2017 20:25:09 GMT
*hits DA2 with a shovel* How dare you be so GOOD that you're making me feel so bad about all these characters! I love DA2. have played it fully 3 times, still haven't seen everything. I become more and more attached to Fenris, more and more angry at Anders. I hope I won't get TOO angry. For my 2nd playthrough I'm planning an extremist 'mage rights!' mage who will romance Anders. Old attachments die hard. This will be rather different than my DAO mage where I've never felt compelled to rebel. My mage stance was probably similar to Wynne or Irving. Based on what I've seen so far, my general world point of view is gradually shifting towards Templars in DA2 and Inq. 'I want freedom.' seems like a moral platform to go by. But, what IS freedom? There is the freedom of, 'I wish to see a sunrise outside these tower walls that I could never leave and feel the comfort of my family.' And there is the freedom of, 'I want to blow up churches and not be held accountable for the crimes I commit because they were for the good of a cause.' When I consider choosing the mages' side, I ask myself WHAT am I supporting, freedom or lawlessness? Don't tell me those mages who summon abominations to their cause do it for the 1st reason. It bothers me that these are precisely the mages who put themselves in charge of the resistance.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 21, 2017 20:37:18 GMT
"I'm not a demon!" Haha: "I'm not your slave!" Anders suffers under the mental lashings of a Demon that will never let him rest! help Anders fight against this slavery! Help him maintain his identity in spite of insurmountable odds! And then, when all is lost, put your best friend down when he's nicely asked you to free him from the constant battle of trying to be Anders underneath all that Vengeance! These feelings all his own feeling too. You can help him to live with Justice, or you can kill him. Perhaps, if the separation exists, then help them to found the way, but I'm not sure about it, and I'm not sure, that Anders wants to risk Justice's life: he feels responsibility about his condition. And if Justice already a demon, he will kill Anders: for this attempt, he takes the control over him finally, no doubt. But there are opinions I read, that in the case of Anders/Justice the simple Avvar-kind separation doesn't exist: they already merged, just as Flemeth/Mythal. In this case, Anders and Justice must try to live with situation try to help with Justice do not twist, or kill them both.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2017 20:43:34 GMT
Justice doesn't coming out, if Anders able to controlling himself.That's the problem though, Justice comes out for lesser crimes and baits than that. Cullen basically professes support for the tranquility in a no sugar coat way and Anders is shouting a really angry retort, and he's comparing Cullen to the man he went berserk over. If he's as bad as that guy, by Justice logic he needs to be dead. Okay, PERHAPS there's a possible explanation: Anders the healer in the Darktown, and hes work can keep relatively calm the refugees. Perhaps, this is a reason, that the Templars doesn't intervene.
I'm extremely unclear about the rules that apply to apostate mages. Apparently it's not enough to carry a big staff on your back to automatically set a horde of Templars chasing after you. Something needs to be triggered before they react. In which cases do Templars invoke the law to take an apostate to the Circle and in which cases they ignore an apostate standing right under their nose? While being an apostate, from the lawful Templars, does not automatically provoke an attack, it still is Templars' responsibility to find apostates and take them to the Circle. Obviously the Templars show no mercy to the malifecarum who have reports or suspicions against them harming civilians, but if the apostates are not known for specific crimes, than sometimes Templars don't attempt to take them into custody, at least not immediately. I have no idea based on which grounds. Also, I've remembered a detail from the quest where we save Cullen from a possessed recruit. I had Bethany with me and when Cullen punches the recruit, she speak up against him. To which he says something along the lines of, 'I don't need advice from an apostate how to do my job.' So, he IS aware that she's a magic user, but back then makes zero attempt to get her. However, he does show up later if Hawke doesn't take her to the Deep Roads. I guess you could explain that Cullen saw what Hawke could do during the battle and doesn't want to pick a fight 1 vs 4 over an apostate who just saved his life when he has vital information that needs to be reported. But, later you stroll with mages in front of him and he doesn't react either, but neither do all those other Templars. So... I really don't get the rules in which cases the Templars can take a suspect apostate into custody. While it makes little sense, obviously, I'm glad that a fight didn't occur between those two as I like them both. In this case I can't even guarantee I would have backed Anders. Right now I'm FURIOUS with Anders. During that confrontation with Ser A, Justice MURDERED that poor mage woman. Prior to that Justice killed his Tranquil friend. It's interesting how Cullen gets a reputation for harassing mages, but for all the shit he says, I have not yet encountered a scene (I'm not confident there will not be one in the future as Cullen is a psychological mess. I sincerely hope not.) where Cullen would attack a tranquil or run a sword through an unarmed mage who is begging for mercy. Of all the people... Anders does that. I was so angry about it, I kicked Anders out of the party for two rl days. I don't want to see his face. Justice murdered two innocents whom he professed he was defending. When I finally came to see Anders he's like ... 'Woe is me, I'm so sorry I killed that poor woman. I hope her relatives will think the Templars are responsible for her death..." He can take his fake sorry and stick it where I want to put his staff. Because for all his sorry, if I were to tell him that Justice is using his body to commit crimes and he needs to consider the means of separating Justice from him, I have no doubt Anders would fight me to death. My Hawke is the one to talk because I'm RPing the darker one. She refused to save one of the three dwarven brothers in favour of a sword and then lied about it. That's why (well that and I NEED a mage in my damn party) I added Anders back. But, I'm not happy with him atm and I don't want him in my party, just his skills. Next game I will take Topor's deal to have an excuse to attack Justice in the Fade. He has overstayed his welcome in Ander's body and needs to be kicked out of there. Although, I very much doubt he'll be killed in that act. DA2 is vexing me at present. Me at the start of the game: Hurray! I get 3 mages to choose from! Bethany - dies in the Deep Roads. Anders - I murder innocents! xD (Hawke - get out of my party!) Merill - The magic talent tree you've trained me in is USELESS. Also, *grab Hawke's throat* GIMMEGIMMEGIMME back my creepy artifact! I want to fix an obviously demonic looking mirror!!!' I don't trust that blasted mirror. It seriously looks EVIL. I don't trust that crazy kid not to pickpocket my Hawke either for that artifact. I kicked her out of the party too. My Hawke is a useless rogue. I walked around in a crippled party for days that consists of four physical DD because I only half-trust Fenris, Avelyn and Varric. Everyone else is absolutely unreliable. Even my evil Hawke wants to get away from the crazy mages. It's very annoying since that's my favourite class and I heavily rely on mages in fights to get the job done At the moment Justice doesn't feel the danger. Cullen only speaks, and Anders angry, but under control. Don't forget, in Kirkwall, he every day meets with the Tranquils, and knows the Templars' positions about the Tranquility. He's not an uncontrollable abomination, he can handle Justice, true, many times has hard moments... And he doesn't bloodthirsty, nor Justice. In Dissent, there was a direct danger, just as in the Chantry. Justice, not like a human, he in the heat of the battle, easily misunderstood the situation, because he doesn't have any reason to kill her. Hawke can stop him, in friendship and rivalry too, probably not in the neutral zone. And: In Feynriel quest we can see, how Justice behaves if Hawke deals with the sloth demon. He really has a problem with demons. Why do you think, that Justice killed Karl? Not. This was Anders. __________ Kirkwall's Templars are weird. You mentioned Bethany in "Enemies among us" quest, and that Cullen calls her as "Apostate". But if Hawke speaks with him in the Gallows, he only says, that he heard rumors about Hawke/Hawke's sister, and he hopes, that these rumors aren't the truth. At the moment Justice doesn't feel the danger. Cullen only speaks, and Anders angry, but under control.
I always wandered if Justice has some sort of telepathic or emotional link that allows him to tap into personal motivations and judge people on the spot. I mean, Cole outright mind reads. Although, Cullen says a lot of BS, Justice does not react to him as a threat. The spirits seem to know Cullen's mind better than Cullen. Hawke can stop him, in friendship and rivalry too, probably not in the neutral zone.Oooohhh! So, now it's Hawke's fault IS IT that he cannot stop Justice from murdering an innocent. That's a VERY low excuse. Hey... did you hear that Hawke? It's all YOUR fault! Naturally. Ju stice, not like a human, he in the heat of the battle, easily misunderstood the situation
Yes, of course, let's give him a misunderstood cookie there. It obviously makes it ok. Why do you think, that Justice killed Karl? Not. This was Anders.
I wandered about it too. Because Anders claims that he had too much darkness in him which corrupted Justice. So, it seems like the link is locked and feeds both ways. Nor is it a fact that without Justice Anders wouldn't eventually arrive to a point where he would commit crimes. Kirkwall's Templars are weird. You mentioned Bethany in "Enemies among us" quest, and that Cullen calls her as "Apostate". But if Hawke speaks with him in the Gallows, he only says, that he heard rumors about Hawke/Hawke's sister, and he hopes, that these rumors aren't the truth.
Did you have Bethany in your party in both cases?
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Post by phoray on Sept 21, 2017 20:48:39 GMT
Anders suffers under the mental lashings of a Demon that will never let him rest! help Anders fight against this slavery! Help him maintain his identity in spite of insurmountable odds! And then, when all is lost, put your best friend down when he's nicely asked you to free him from the constant battle of trying to be Anders underneath all that Vengeance! These feelings all his own feeling too. You can help him to live with Justice, or you can kill him. Perhaps, if the separation exists, then help them to found the way, but I'm not sure about it, and I'm not sure, that Anders wants to risk Justice's life: he feels responsibility about his condition. And if Justice already a demon, he will kill Anders: for this attempt, he takes the control over him finally, no doubt. But there are opinions I read, that in the case of Anders/Justice the simple Avvar-kind separation doesn't exist: they already merged, just as Flemeth/Mythal. In this case, Anders and Justice must try to live with situation try to help with Justice do not twist, or kill them both. Justice's life is unnatural in it's current form and Anders shouldn't feel guilty for giving Justice a shot. but Justice can always go inhabit another fresh corpse. Why this dioesn't come up? It's only his demon desire to be inside a functioning mage body without people trying to constantly kill him that maintains his presence within Anders. If you can admit that Anders forcing Justice out may make Justice kill him implies you think he's a demon already. WE can not give preference to the abomination of a Spirit inside a person's body to that person's dentiement (unlike the Avaar, who get helped by the joining.) I think by encouraging them to merge on the friendship path makes separation unlikely. Keeping them at odds is the best shot, then taking Anders to various places. Avaar, Rivain, Tevinter. And this only if Justice refuses to leave. I maintain he doesn't wish to.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2017 20:53:30 GMT
He's only complicated.... BECAUSE HE LET A DEMON INSIDE HIM! Phoray!!! Really? Must I move all the furniture out of the way? No need. All your furniture will also be corrupted. Are you planning to invite a friendly spirit to reside in your head?
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Post by Catilina on Sept 21, 2017 20:54:50 GMT
I love DA2. have played it fully 3 times, still haven't seen everything. I become more and more attached to Fenris, more and more angry at Anders. I hope I won't get TOO angry. For my 2nd playthrough I'm planning an extremist 'mage rights!' mage who will romance Anders. Old attachments die hard. This will be rather different than my DAO mage where I've never felt compelled to rebel. My mage stance was probably similar to Wynne or Irving. Based on what I've seen so far, my general world point of view is gradually shifting towards Templars in DA2 and Inq. 'I want freedom.' seems like a moral platform to go by. But, what IS freedom? There is the freedom of, 'I wish to see a sunrise outside these tower walls that I could never leave and feel the comfort of my family.' And there is the freedom of, 'I want to blow up churches and not be held accountable for the crimes I commit because they were for the good of a cause.' When I consider choosing the mages' side, I ask myself WHAT am I supporting, freedom or lawlessness? Don't tell me those mages who summon abominations to their cause do it for the 1st reason. It bothers me that these are precisely the mages who put themselves in charge of the resistance. When I played as DAO, I felt so angry, I would destroy this Tower with the closed doors! Didn't you feel that? Closed doors separated the freedom, but no doors on the bedchambers! Did you saw that girl in the Tower Chantry? Ugh! That was painful! She's one of the best arguments against the Chantry's Circle-system. Ant this is why I never get Wynne, but Anders, with his escape attempts, was fascinating! And Justice/Anders's conversations were fantastic When I got these two in one, and romanceable for a man too! Oh my! ____ By the way: Anders/Justice never wanted lawlessness. He wanted good (livable) law. All he wanted is freedom and love, as everyone and for everyone.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2017 21:01:57 GMT
Steering this into a slightly different direction because the comments are interesting, but I'm also trying to avoid reading that article fully because I'm still in Hinterlands and will be spoiled. But, I've noticed a similar trait in Sten except to less subtle and manipulative degree. Sten: Alistair draw your sword. Alistair: No. Sten: (with approval) So you have a spine after all. Show it more often. It's like he's poking humans with a stick to see their reactions and analyze them. I've never disposed of a feeling that it's a psychological study of the enemy for a future invasion authorized by Arishok. At the same time it's respectful of his study subjects and he's trying to help in a peculiar way. He even shows compassion. If you have him in the party when you're going to magi tower, he praises Cullen for withstanding the torture. I was surprised, since Warden is the only other person in the entire Ferelden Sten deems worthy of an open compliment. Sometimes I get this funny feeling that Sten is like Wynne distributing advice in his own manner. Stem and Bull seem to be quite similar in temperament and character. Both work from logic and impersonal in studying, always taking the measure of the person and trying to understand them from that point. Yes and gathering and testing that person. The Arishok in DA2 was all emotion and driven by his emotions. If Sten was in that position I don't think there would have been a battle. That's true. I think that situation could have been resolved differently with Sten in charge. With Alistair, it was like Sten was acknowledging the possibility of Alistair becoming the King of Ferelden and Sten wanted to know what kind of a man this King would be. At the same time, Sten believes that a good leader should be more decisive and distributes that advice to Alistiar, although if the Qunari were to engage in a conflict, they wouldn't benefit from a stronger Ferelden King.
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Post by fylimar on Sept 21, 2017 21:11:20 GMT
adonnielI never had that conversation with Anders since I either saved Ella or didn't do the quest at all. But that is really low, hoping the templars get blamed for his murder. I do like the character, he has some depth (although the best and greatest character is and always will be Varric of course ), but he can be a real dick sometimes and I don't think, it can be entirely blamed on Justice. But I agree with phoray that Justice seems to have changed a lot since he merged with Anders - and that he might be a demon now. I think, the merging was by far the most stupid thing both of them did until ... well from one of your last posts you already heard about a certain church blowing up... Kirkwall isn't the sanest place either - if you do another playthrough, watch out for messages from the 'Band of Three', the quest is called 'Enigma of Kirkwall'. It's nothing big, but you get some nice theories and explanations about why Kirkwall has so much problems with serial killers, generally unpleasent people and blood mages (Kirwall is basically Thedas Arkham). The DLC Legacy explains it too. It made me think, that maybe Anders and Justice would have been fine, even merged, if they had stay the hell away from Kirkwall.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 21, 2017 21:13:36 GMT
These feelings all his own feeling too. You can help him to live with Justice, or you can kill him. Perhaps, if the separation exists, then help them to found the way, but I'm not sure about it, and I'm not sure, that Anders wants to risk Justice's life: he feels responsibility about his condition. And if Justice already a demon, he will kill Anders: for this attempt, he takes the control over him finally, no doubt. But there are opinions I read, that in the case of Anders/Justice the simple Avvar-kind separation doesn't exist: they already merged, just as Flemeth/Mythal. In this case, Anders and Justice must try to live with situation try to help with Justice do not twist, or kill them both. Justice's life is unnatural in it's current form and Anders shouldn't feel guilty for giving Justice a shot. but Justice can always go inhabit another fresh corpse. Why this dioesn't come up? It's only his demon desire to be inside a functioning mage body without people trying to constantly kill him that maintains his presence within Anders. If you can admit that Anders forcing Justice out may make Justice kill him implies you think he's a demon already. WE can not give preference to the abomination of a Spirit inside a person's body to that person's dentiement (unlike the Avaar, who get helped by the joining.) I think by encouraging them to merge on the friendship path makes separation unlikely. Keeping them at odds is the best shot, then taking Anders to various places. Avaar, Rivain, Tevinter. And this only if Justice refuses to leave. I maintain he doesn't wish to. Justice still killable: lost his memory and his identity (if Solas's right). Not this is the death? Of course not excluded, that Justice was already a demon when he awakened in Kristof corpse... or even in the Fade... Or corrupted during the adventures / from Kristof's memories... there are many ways, how you can interpret him, and we didn't speak about Anders yet... I never excluded, that Justice already a demon – in the rivalry, he has a big chance to be twisted –, but I think there are some pieces of evidence for that he didn't. I said: IF Justice already a demon, he would kill Anders... The rivalry doesn't help on them, they already merged. The rivalry able to uncertain Anders in his faith, and to hate Justice (himself), but not to keep away to Justice. Only the friendship can help him to found the balance in his mind.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2017 21:15:33 GMT
____ By the way: Anders/Justice never wanted lawlessness. He wanted good (livable) law. All he wanted is freedom and love, as everyone and for everyone. And you may demonstrate that love by turning everyone into abominations through the blood magic rituals and blowing up churches. There is a difference between what people say they want and what they actually stand for. The mages turn to means which are considered evil by anyone with common sense to obtain freedom - to lawless means. That's why you end up with a world slate where mages fight mages and Templars fight Templars and abandon the Chantry. They see the wrong in it.
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Post by phoray on Sept 21, 2017 21:20:09 GMT
The rivalry doesn't help on them, they already merged. The rivalry able to uncertain Anders in his faith, and to hate Justice (himself), but not to keep away to Justice. Only the friendship can help him to found the balance in his mind. But even in friendship path, Justice wants to kill Ella for SPEAKING. And how is blowing up a chantry "finding the balance" in his mind? all friendship does is make him okay with/ agree with the voice in his head demanding he do something extreme. This isn't friendship, it's enablement.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 21, 2017 22:02:44 GMT
The rivalry doesn't help on them, they already merged. The rivalry able to uncertain Anders in his faith, and to hate Justice (himself), but not to keep away to Justice. Only the friendship can help him to found the balance in his mind. But even in friendship path, Justice wants to kill Ella for SPEAKING. And how is blowing up a chantry "finding the balance" in his mind? all friendship does is make him okay with/ agree with the voice in his head demanding he do something extreme. This isn't friendship, it's enablement. No. The friendship about that he must try to control himself, and live with this spirit inside, and Hawke helps him in it. The rivalry about that he has some disgusting inside him, what he must hate: so to live with that "thing", absolutely excluded. Not Justice says to him, that needs to believe in freedom, he believed in even without Justice. He just considers the fight hard, and the change unbelievable. Justice helped him to believe in the impossible, and to fight for it. Justice wants to kill someone who considers him demon, as the Templars. Justice IS dangerous. To live with him IS dangerous. But the men can learn, and the spirits can learn. Justice didn't emerge after this, only when Corypheus forced, but try to protect Anders. When in a rivalry he emerged, didn't hurt Hawke, only yelled at him/her (I do not surprise, if I would hear that stupid answer, I would howl!), and retreated. To blow up the Chantry, to ignithe the spark of the revolution was his goal, why would change that, even in friendship? Not mentioned, that Hawke can support that, or kill him... even in friendship. And the rivalry also cant prevent this act. So: what is the benefit of the rivalry? He not able to take the responsibility for his act ... Seems a great benefit, isn't it? Eh, you know my opinion
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Post by Catilina on Sept 21, 2017 22:26:30 GMT
At the moment Justice doesn't feel the danger. Cullen only speaks, and Anders angry, but under control. Don't forget, in Kirkwall, he every day meets with the Tranquils, and knows the Templars' positions about the Tranquility. He's not an uncontrollable abomination, he can handle Justice, true, many times has hard moments... And he doesn't bloodthirsty, nor Justice.
In Dissent, there was a direct danger, just as in the Chantry. Justice, not like a human, he in the heat of the battle, easily misunderstood the situation, because he doesn't have any reason to kill her. Hawke can stop him, in friendship and rivalry too, probably not in the neutral zone. And: In Feynriel quest we can see, how Justice behaves if Hawke deals with the sloth demon. He really has a problem with demons.
Why do you think, that Justice killed Karl? Not. This was Anders. __________
Kirkwall's Templars are weird. You mentioned Bethany in "Enemies among us" quest, and that Cullen calls her as "Apostate". But if Hawke speaks with him in the Gallows, he only says, that he heard rumors about Hawke/Hawke's sister, and he hopes, that these rumors aren't the truth. At the moment Justice doesn't feel the danger. Cullen only speaks, and Anders angry, but under control.
I always wandered if Justice has some sort of telepathic or emotional link that allows him to tap into personal motivations and judge people on the spot. I mean, Cole outright mind reads. Although, Cullen says a lot of BS, Justice does not react to him as a threat. The spirits seem to know Cullen's mind better than Cullen. Hawke can stop him, in friendship and rivalry too, probably not in the neutral zone.Oooohhh! So, now it's Hawke's fault IS IT that he cannot stop Justice from murdering an innocent. That's a VERY low excuse. Hey... did you hear that Hawke? It's all YOUR fault! Naturally. Ju stice, not like a human, he in the heat of the battle, easily misunderstood the situation
Yes, of course, let's give him a misunderstood cookie there. It obviously makes it ok. Why do you think, that Justice killed Karl? Not. This was Anders.
I wandered about it too. Because Anders claims that he had too much darkness in him which corrupted Justice. So, it seems like the link is locked and feeds both ways. Nor is it a fact that without Justice Anders wouldn't eventually arrive to a point where he would commit crimes. Kirkwall's Templars are weird. You mentioned Bethany in "Enemies among us" quest, and that Cullen calls her as "Apostate". But if Hawke speaks with him in the Gallows, he only says, that he heard rumors about Hawke/Hawke's sister, and he hopes, that these rumors aren't the truth.
Did you have Bethany in your party in both cases? 1. Justice in Anders' head or rather Justice is a part of Anders. He knows Anders' thoughts, just as Anders knows his thoughts. ( "Justice does not approve of my obsession with you") So: Justice feels what Anders feels. And: Anders able to withhold Justice (also Dissent quest, the first moment at Alric, when Justice appeared, Anders hold back him, but later he lost the control, and focused on the battle). 2. No, this certainly NOT Hawke's fault, this clearly Justice's fault. But: why I wrote that, it shows, that Anders/Justice able to hear the truth, even in heat of the battle. 3. Not a cookie, a dangerous spirit... but sexy, when glow. 4. I suppose between them existed a pact: if anyone of them be a Tranquil, the other will kill him. Do you think, Anders was evil there? No. 5. As I remember, yes. ____________ My opinion about Anders/Justice only a different view (probably rare), what perhaps can help you in the radical pro-mage game. I also tried the Templar end, but that was just uncomfortable.
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