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Post by phoray on Sept 21, 2017 22:44:32 GMT
Eh, you know my opinion Yes, I do. But I do so love to fight with you. I go extreme to really goad you.
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Post by cmoe on Sept 21, 2017 22:49:41 GMT
As usual, amazing screenshots!
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Post by Catilina on Sept 21, 2017 22:50:32 GMT
Eh, you know my opinion Yes, I do. But I do so love to fight with you. I go extreme to really goad you.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2017 22:51:09 GMT
When I played as DAO, I felt so angry, I would destroy this Tower with the closed doors! Didn't you feel that? Closed doors separated the freedom, but no doors on the bedchambers! Did you saw that girl in the Tower Chantry? Ugh! That was painful! She's one of the best arguments against the Chantry's Circle-system.
Anders was taken to the Circle after he had a chance to form an attachment to the outside world and that's why he flees back to it. Why should my mage rebel against the only home she had ever known which has given her education and treated her well all her life? Maybe if she was older and would have grown out of the tower she would gradually get curious about the outside and restrictions would pose more problems for her, but she's very young when Duncan comes and at that point getting a solid education to pass the Harrowing had kept her busy enough and interested inside the tower. It's been said that she has a considerable magic talent and she's respected and probably a good student who constantly gets praise, and judging by a random bicheees conversation behind her back even envied. Irving and Gregor are an example where a corrupt system can get the best benefit out of it possible because they both are respectful of each other and both get a voice to keep things in balance at the tower. Unlike Kirkwell, Gregor doesn't allow the Templars to miss use their power. The Circle mages aren't the beaten Meredith mages. In the world that has significant inequality, when you have a purpose in the tower and get treated well, it does seem like an acceptable compromise.
The fact that my mage is elven only strengthens that position. The tower has less racial inequality than the world outside. In the tower, my mage was respected based on her merit and knowledge. She didn't get the 'you're inferior because you're an elf' talk. She did not take kindly when she went outside and learned that lots of people have a problem with her race. Nor was she very impressed with the Alianage. Her response to seeing it was, 'Thank Andraste I was raised in the Tower and not in this dump.'
While I see that girl at the church pointing out the fundamental problem - being a mage is perceived as a curse - all I see is a weak willed individual, not a strong argument. I think Anders in the Awakening presents the same argument in a stronger fashion (and that's why I love him in the Awakening) - he points out the same thing by saying, 'It's like when you're a mage, you're automatically a threat and everyone needs to be protected from you. There is NOTHING you can do to prove yourself!'
However, how right is he when he meets HoF who IS a mage and is given power and respect across the country?
This is why when it comes down to mage/templar conflict, if I were to choose a character with a philosophy most similar to my own, I'd say Vivienne. Vivi is a mage, but she wants to ally with the Templars and so do I because what mages promote at that point is Anarchy, whereas the Templars represent a broken system that must be heavily reformed. The Chantry must be changed and one of the first things that must be corrected is this imposed misconception that being a mage immediately should be perceived as something horrible. But, NO, I have absolutely no desire to destroy the Circle. I have no desire to burn every Tower down. I think Conor is a strong argument of what happens when you give the mage an education outside the tower. You still need the official infrastructure. The Tower must function as a school - just not the school you can never leave - that equality must apply to everyone. The Templars are still NEEDED in the reformed structure - just new laws must be passed that would act as a safety mechanism to ensure they do not abuse their power.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 21, 2017 23:03:25 GMT
When I played as DAO, I felt so angry, I would destroy this Tower with the closed doors! Didn't you feel that? Closed doors separated the freedom, but no doors on the bedchambers! Did you saw that girl in the Tower Chantry? Ugh! That was painful! She's one of the best arguments against the Chantry's Circle-system.
Anders was taken to the Circle after he had a chance to form an attachment to the outside world and that's why he flees back to it. Why should my mage rebel against the only home she had ever known which has given her education and treated her well all her life? Maybe if she was older and would have grown out of the tower she would gradually get curious about the outside and restrictions would pose more problems for her, but she's very young when Duncan comes and at that point getting a solid education to pass the Harrowing had kept her busy enough and interested inside the tower. It's been said that she has a considerable magic talent and she's respected and probably a good student who constantly gets praise, and judging by a random bicheees conversation behind her back even envied. Irving and Gregor are an example where a corrupt system can get the best benefit out of it possible because they both are respectful of each other and both get a voice to keep things in balance at the tower. Unlike Kirkwell, Gregor doesn't allow the Templars to miss use their power. The Circle mages aren't the beaten Meredith mages. In the world that has significant inequality, when you have a purpose in the tower and get treated well, it does seem like an acceptable compromise.
The fact that my mage is elven only strengthens that position. The tower has less racial inequality than the world outside. In the tower, my mage was respected based on her merit and knowledge. She didn't get the 'you're inferior because you're an elf' talk. She did not take kindly when she went outside and learned that lots of people have a problem with her race. Nor was she very impressed with the Alianage. Her response to seeing it was, 'Thank Andraste I was raised in the Tower and not in this dump.'
While I see that girl at the church pointing out the fundamental problem - being a mage is perceived as a curse - all I see is a weak willed individual, not a strong argument. I think Anders in the Awakening presents the same argument in a stronger fashion (and that's why I love him in the Awakening) - he points out the same thing by saying, 'It's like when you're a mage, you're automatically a threat and everyone needs to be protected from you. There is NOTHING you can do to prove yourself!'
However, how right is he when he meets HoF who IS a mage and is given power and respect across the country?
This is why when it comes down to mage/templar conflict, if I were to choose a character with a philosophy most similar to my own, I'd say Vivienne. Vivi is a mage, but she wants to ally with the Templars and so do I because what mages promote at that point is Anarchy, whereas the Templars represent a broken system that must be heavily reformed. The Chantry must be changed and one of the first things that must be corrected is this imposed misconception that being a mage immediately should be perceived as something horrible. But, NO, I have absolutely no desire to destroy the Circle. I have no desire to burn every Tower down. I think Conor is a strong argument of what happens when you give the mage an education outside the tower. You still need the official infrastructure. The Tower must function as a school - just not the school you can never leave - that equality must apply to everyone. The Templars are still NEEDED in the reformed structure - just new laws must be passed that would act as a safety mechanism to ensure they do not abuse their power. Yes, ofc, this is a valid argument: if anyone doesn't know any other home/parents, then his master's house is his home, and his master's his parent. (Orana, Fenris, most of the Circle Mages) Many people argue with Wynne. But look at: Wynne was an orphan, who lived in a terrible "family", her live was a nightmare. Ofc, she felt secure in the Circle. The Chantry took away Wynne's child (because of the mages' children, just as the mages themselves are the Chantry's property), and she was loyal to the Circle still, despite, that she was not happy to lose her child. Interesting story... (especially the Templar father's version) This is a massive Stockholm Syndrome, I suppose. According to Wynne, Rhys was taken from his mother shortly after his birth as she was too weak from the birth to stop it. Rhys' father, a templar of Kinloch Hold, however, contends in a rather impassioned letter that Wynne willingly gave their child up in order to remain securely in the Circle. Ugh, Vivienne! Terrible! (I usually gather the Circle-books, just for refusing to give her, and I usually doesn't go for her personalk quest: she's a politician, my Inquisitors can't trust in his intention, and he doesn't tell her reasons...) Connor, Meredith's sister and Thrask daughter is very strong examples AGAINST the Circle system.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2017 23:33:39 GMT
Connor, Meredith's sister and Thrask daughter is very strong examples AGAINST the Circle system. Yes in a sense that the reason why mothers refuse to surrender their children to the Circle is because they will not be allowed to see their children again and because it is perceived as a curse. That's why they hide the magic talent until some insane accident occurs instead of immediately giving their children to the Circle. However - all children MUST get education. If the child possess skills beyond regular education curriculum, there must be special schools provided that will teach them those skills. You cannot just destroy the Circles because they must function as schools. That's why you bring the reform in and make sure that you get rid of the mind set that magic is curse and all that bs about not being allowed to communicate with the relatives ever again. But - you can't just hide your kid in the basement and hope for the best. The tragedy in Redcliffee is an example that you need a place to educate magically gifted children. That's the problem with rebel mages - blow up all schools and kill all Templars! We won't be needing them...
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 21, 2017 23:36:50 GMT
To be fair, most of the rebel mages don't want that and write people like Anders off as the madman he is. In fact if you side with them they create the College on Enchanters, which is basically a Circle system but with a lot more freedom for the mages. They don't really want war with the Templars either, hence going to the Conclave to try to end the war with peace talks.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2017 23:51:41 GMT
To be fair, most of the rebel mages don't want that and write people like Anders off as the madman he is. In fact if you side with them they create the College on Enchanters, which is basically a Circle system but with a lot more freedom for the mages. They don't really want war with the Templars either, hence going to the Conclave to try to end the war with peace talks. That's because they gain a new leadership and your Inquisitor influences them. They go bananas when left on their own. Both Templars and Mages benefit from the alliance with the Inquisition because it motions their resources and allegiances into a reformation system.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2017 0:07:22 GMT
Day 21: The Noob Inquisitor Log
- Went looking for the nice ruins owner to thank him for giving us shelter from the zombie horde. Found him performing the worst set of dancing moves in Thedas on the stairs and badly singing off key 'Ima put Inquisitor's head on the pike.' - Told him better people have tried, which sounded vaguely familiar. While I puzzled over which super cool person may have said that, the ruins owner fell down the stairs and died. Oh well, good riddance to that, though, I suspect Beard may have pushed him. - Followed some muffled shuffling and discovered a bunch of guys we've been looking for in the basement. They say their imprisonment was horrible since the ruins owner was making them watch his rehearsals, but they remained sitting in the cell after I opened the door. - Figured I should take chances with the zombies in case the ruins owner had relatives and ran straight into what looked like one. The guy claimed he talks to the sky spirits and thanked me for erasing this horrible embarrassment to the family from history. I acted friendly and invited him to tea in Haven since he's like ten feet tall and has a big club. He said he'll see me around.
Approval meter: - 17 cold
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Post by Catilina on Sept 22, 2017 0:13:04 GMT
Connor, Meredith's sister and Thrask daughter are very strong examples AGAINST the Circle system. Yes in a sense that the reason why mothers refuse to surrender their children to the Circle is because they will not be allowed to see their children again and because it is perceived as a curse. That's why they hide the magic talent until some insane accident occurs instead of immediately giving their children to the Circle. However - all children MUST get education. If the child possess skills beyond regular education curriculum, there must be special schools provided that will teach them those skills. You cannot just destroy the Circles because they must function as schools. That's why you bring the reform in and make sure that you get rid of the mind set that magic is curse and all that bs about not being allowed to communicate with the relatives ever again. But - you can't just hide your kid in the basement and hope for the best. The tragedy in Redcliffee is an example that you need a place to educate magically gifted children. That's the problem with rebel mages - blow up all schools and kill all Templars! We won't be needing them... The revolution was necessary. And the education is necessary. Destroying the old: this is the feature of revolution, but always build a new one instead of the old. Hopefully better. (I suppose, with this purge, the Chantry got a chance to rebuild without corruption and chose the right way, and already serve the Maker and Andraste, instead of the corruption.) Of course, there were rebel mages who wanted to destroy everything, but I don't think, these ones were the majority. Even Anders knows, how important is the education (Bethany/Anders banter).
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Post by Catilina on Sept 22, 2017 0:19:01 GMT
To be fair, most of the rebel mages don't want that and write people like Anders off as the madman he is. In fact if you side with them they create the College on Enchanters, which is basically a Circle system but with a lot more freedom for the mages. They don't really want war with the Templars either, hence going to the Conclave to try to end the war with peace talks. That's because they gain a new leadership and your Inquisitor influences them. They go bananas when left on their own. Both Templars and Mages benefit from the alliance with the Inquisition because it motions their resources and allegiances into a reformation system. Mandatory education. Effective anti-magic forces, with MAGES, Seekers, and Templars (if possible without lyrium addiction). Registration (phylactery system). This trio would guarantee freedom, security, and trust. (Anders believes, that the Circle is the best in the education and the training – just for sake of truth.)
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2017 0:27:36 GMT
I love DA2. have played it fully 3 times, still haven't seen everything. I become more and more attached to Fenris, more and more angry at Anders. Hey, Anders/Justice's good, he's the most complicated character! You can love or hate him, he's the best! I'm angry with Anders because I heart him dearly and it saddens me that he's losing the good in him step by step. That's the beauty and tragedy of Dragon Age. Some people travel towards the Redemption. And some travel away from it, leaving those tender moments behind that forged a mark in your heart.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 22, 2017 0:35:55 GMT
Hey, Anders/Justice's good, he's the most complicated character! You can love or hate him, he's the best! I'm angry with Anders because I heart him dearly and it saddens me that he's losing the good in him step by step. That's the beauty and tragedy of Dragon Age. Some people travel towards the Redemption. And some travel away from it, leaving those tender moments behind that forged a mark in your heart. Oh, I like Cullen: he let Anders and my Hawke run, and help to rebel the other Circles! This is why I can like him. This is a good start to redeem himself...
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Post by melbella on Sept 22, 2017 1:53:41 GMT
Curtain call, Valeria. End of Trespasser, in her words. One more fight. Viddasala dies or I will. Makes no difference to me any more. I'm still disappointed we don't get to kill Viddasala ourselves.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2017 2:01:32 GMT
Yes, ofc, this is a valid argument: if anyone doesn't know any other home/parents, then his master's house is his home, and his master's his parent. (Orana, Fenris, most of the Circle Mages) Many people argue with Wynne. But look at: Wynne was an orphan, who lived in a terrible "family", her live was a nightmare. Ofc, she felt secure in the Circle. The Chantry took away Wynne's child (because of the mages' children, just as the mages themselves are the Chantry's property), and she was loyal to the Circle still, despite, that she was not happy to lose her child. Interesting story... (especially the Templar father's version) This is a massive Stockholm Syndrome, I suppose.
Just because somebody doesn't wish to resort to violence in order to gain their means, doesn't mean they have a syndrome or are unaware that their rights are being trampled. Both Irving and Wynne are wise and educated people who are perfectly aware of what's going on. Have you ever considered that Anders gets away with as many escape attempts as he does without being tranquilised precisely because Irving fights for his rights? You can fight something by submission too. Had Irving been controversial and angry, he would have never gained Gregor's respect and wouldn't have the same ability to negotiate with him for concessions. The reason why things are as smooth in the tower as they are because Irving is not like Anders, otherwise, Anders would be long sitting with a brand across his forehead perfectly indifferent and happy because Irving would have no voice and no trust by being openly antagonizing to authorities. Just because somebody doesn't wish to be miserable about their entire life doesn't mean they see no wrongs in society or suffer the Stockholm Syndrome. You don't have to be constantly antagonistic towards the environment you've been raised in in order to perceive wrongs in it. Irving and Wynne acknowledge those wrongs, they just go a different way than Anders in dealing with it.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 22, 2017 2:26:40 GMT
Yes, ofc, this is a valid argument: if anyone doesn't know any other home/parents, then his master's house is his home, and his master's his parent. (Orana, Fenris, most of the Circle Mages) Many people argue with Wynne. But look at: Wynne was an orphan, who lived in a terrible "family", her live was a nightmare. Ofc, she felt secure in the Circle. The Chantry took away Wynne's child (because of the mages' children, just as the mages themselves are the Chantry's property), and she was loyal to the Circle still, despite, that she was not happy to lose her child. Interesting story... (especially the Templar father's version) This is a massive Stockholm Syndrome, I suppose.Just because somebody doesn't wish to resort to violence in order to gain their means, doesn't mean they have a syndrome or are unaware that their rights are being trampled. Both Irving and Wynne are wise and educated people who are perfectly aware of what's going on. Have you ever considered that Anders gets away with as many escape attempts as he does without being tranquilised precisely because Irving fights for his rights? You can fight something by submission too. Had Irving been controversial and angry, he would have never gained Gregor's respect and wouldn't have the same ability to negotiate with him for concessions. The reason why things are a smooth in the tower as they are because Irving is not like Anders, otherwise, Anders would be long sitting with a brand across his forehead perfectly indifferent and happy because Irving would have no voice in being openly antagonizing to authorities. Just because somebody doesn't wish to be miserable about their entire life doesn't mean they see no wrongs in society or suffer the Stockholm Syndrome. Okay. Nothing wrong with if you and your children are properties. A wise man happily accepts his place. Orana loves her master, and felt sorry for her, after, that she killed her father for his blood. Fenris killed his protectors, for his master. And... "he would have never gained Greagoir's respect"? Why would a mage fight for a Templar's respect? This just wrong! The mere thought terrified me! You think, that to accept a system, what makes zombie from a man due to some escape attempts is normal? The Calenhad Tower just "gives" Anders' lover to Kirkwall, because Kirkwall Circle needed new talents... (Probably the old talents already tranquilized...) This is same as the slave trading. The open conflict the only solution such a situation. Sadly you're right, many mages and slaves do not have any other home, and fear from the freedom. That society, what allows such a system, is wrong. The system is evil.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2017 2:48:21 GMT
And... "he would have never gained Greagoir's respect"? Why would a mage fight for a Templar's respect? This just wrong! The mere thought terrified me! So, you refuse to acknowledge that Templars are human beings and believe that all of them do not deserve respect just for choosing to be Templars? Doesn't your tremulous, fire sputtering argument choose a foundation that ALL sentient beings must be treated with respect? That's the most hypocritical claim ever. If you wish to be treated with respect, you must give respect.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 22, 2017 2:52:42 GMT
And... "he would have never gained Greagoir's respect"? Why would a mage fight for a Templar's respect? This just wrong! The mere thought terrified me! So, you refuse to acknowledge that Templars are human beings and believe that all of them do not deserve respect just for choosing to be Templars? Doesn't your tremulous, fire sputtering argument choose a foundation that ALL sentient beings must be treated with respect? That's the most hypocritical claim ever. If you wish to be treated with respect, you must give respect. As a man, not as a superior. Respect the man, not a position. It's terrifying, if I hear, that a slave/captive must earn his master/prison guard's respect. It's just wrong.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2017 3:03:05 GMT
So, you refuse to acknowledge that Templars are human beings and believe that all of them do not deserve respect just for choosing to be Templars? Doesn't your tremulous, fire sputtering argument choose a foundation that ALL sentient beings must be treated with respect? That's the most hypocritical claim ever. If you wish to be treated with respect, you must give respect. As a man, not as a superior. Respect the man, not a position. So, you believe that Irving respects Gregor based on his position and not on the fact that he's an honourable and reasonable man? I think he's wiser than that. It's terrifying, if I hear, that a slave/captive must earn his master/prison guard's respect. It's just wrong.
The mages don't have to earn anything. How they choose to interact with the Templars depends on their own philosophy.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 22, 2017 3:07:31 GMT
As a man, not as a superior. Respect the man, not a position. So, you believe that Irving respects Gregor based on his position and not on the fact that he's an honourable and reasonable man? I think he's wiser than that. What's honorable about Greagoir? That he accepts NOT to kill every little child in the Circle IF the warden kills the Abominations? What a virtue! He would able to close the doors! Not to protect the mages, no. Closed the doors. NOT to kill anyone, not a virtue.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2017 3:09:09 GMT
So, you believe that Irving respects Gregor based on his position and not on the fact that he's an honourable and reasonable man? I think he's wiser than that. What's honorable about Greagoir? That he accepts NOT to kill every little child in the Circle, IF the warden kill the Abominations? What a virtue! He would able to close the doors! Not protect the mages, no. Closed the doors. I think you're side stepping your own argument. You went about yelling how the Templars are evil of all evils because they deny mages humanity, yet turned right around and denied Templars theirs. You're saying the only way a mage can respect a Templar is because they're in awe with their position of authority/power and worship that.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 22, 2017 3:17:34 GMT
What's honorable about Greagoir? That he accepts NOT to kill every little child in the Circle, IF the warden kill the Abominations? What a virtue! He would able to close the doors! Not protect the mages, no. Closed the doors. I think you're side stepping your own argument. You went about yelling how the Templars are evil of all evils because they deny mages humanity, yet turned right around and denied Templars theirs. When did I say that the Templars aren't human? I just said: NOT to kill anyone, is not a virtue. Greagoir seems not as bad as Meredith. This also not a virtue, I suppose, but correct me if I am wrong...
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2017 3:25:26 GMT
I think you're side stepping your own argument. You went about yelling how the Templars are evil of all evils because they deny mages humanity, yet turned right around and denied Templars theirs. When did I say that the Templars aren't human?I just said: NOT to kill anyone, is not a virtue. Greagoir seems not as bad as Meredith. This also not a virtue, I suppose, but correct me if I am wrong... And... "he would have never gained Greagoir's respect"? Why would a mage fight for a Templar's respect? This just wrong! The mere thought terrified me!
Here. You dehumanize the Templars by casting them into a faceless 'all jailors' category. And claim that mages only wish to gain their respect because they suffer from a mass syndrome. Otherwise, no normal mage would want to talk to/negotiate with a Templar. So the only way for you to be normal mage is to hate on the Templars. Otherwise you've got that mass syndrome thingy.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 22, 2017 3:31:44 GMT
When did I say that the Templars aren't human?I just said: NOT to kill anyone, is not a virtue. Greagoir seems not as bad as Meredith. This also not a virtue, I suppose, but correct me if I am wrong... And... "he would have never gained Greagoir's respect"? Why would a mage fight for a Templar's respect? This just wrong! The mere thought terrified me!
Here. This is not that. You wrote that, because Irving was so wise, that he didn't want to escape from the Circle, because he would such an idiot than Anders, he have never gained Gregoir's respect. Okay, we don't speak about "Templar" and "Mage". We speak about humans. So a man can't respect another man, who wants to be free? A man can respect another man only for his obedience?
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