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Post by Catilina on Oct 7, 2017 23:13:00 GMT
My very first post talked about an example where Irving surrendered to the Templars peacefully and nobody killed him. This is Annulment being used as intended. The situation you're describing is what happens when the Right of Annulment is misused. Those mages would start fighting because they would think that Templars would corrupt the law and kill them instead of arresting as the Annulment demands. Once again, you're using as an example a situation when the law that's intended to do something else is being criminally misused. This is a huge part of the problem with Kirkwall because no one has faith that the laws the Chantry sets for itself will actually be followed. This doesn't mean the law is originally intended to promote mass murder. There are a lot of lawful mages willing to abide by the system and they don't want to fight at all. They would have disarmed had they believed that Annulment would be used properly. This is one fundamental difference between Circle of Magi in DAO and Kirkwall incidents. At the Cirle, Irving has faith that Gregor will follow the law properly and surrenders. At Kirkwall, mages have zero faith that Templars will follow even their own rules. This is why they start throwing fireballs instead of surrendering. Of course, the system is perfect! – No. The system is inherently evil. Of course, the good mages are obedient, and if they obedient ENOUGH, maybe, MAYBE the Templars, let them alive. Of course, who doesn't want to sit on his/her ass, and waiting for someone whim, rather wants to fight for his/her life, is guilty.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2017 23:19:33 GMT
the Chantry the power to purge a Circle entirely IF they rule it irredeemable
This still does not imply mass murdering the innocents. That big 'if' is used in a case when every single person was turned into abomination. This still doesn't mean that if some mage surrendered and was proven to be innocent they would be executed anyway.
The same way it says 'any time.' Any time means the catastrophe isn't going to wait for a specific hour and day of the week to strike. This doesn't mean you're allowed to call on Annulment on a whim. There has to be a powerful justification.
I'm getting an impression that people think that with Annulment enacted the Templars are just allowed to run inside the Circle and stab dead everything that moves in it for funzies without getting any punishment. That's not how it works.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 7, 2017 23:22:45 GMT
Just as Meredith and her Templars was punished for their abuses... No. We saw in Kirkwall, that Meredith was able to do anything that she wanted, without any consequence. The Starkhaven Templars also. They killed random mages for time to time to keep in fear the others (Thrask), without any consequence. ___ The Templars can't perform the Annulment without the Chantry, but the Chantry can. Anytime. And there no one able to question the reasons (and no one interest about the reasons). Why Irving agreed? Because he's an old man, who never wanted to rebel. He's a slave, and don't want to be free. He allowed Uldred to play with Blood Magic. ___ The Chantry really needed that purge, I suppose. What are you talking about? The Chantry declares Meredith's actions to be criminal. Irving should rebel against what? What is in your understanding of rebelling in a situation where the tower was overrun by abominations? Did you want Irving to remove his staff and start throwing fireballs at Gregor? Did you want him to murder Gregor for invoking the right on Annulment to prove that Chantry is evil? You disprove of Irving's actions for agreeing to disarm in that situation. I suppose he should have started a bloody fight that would have murdered the remaining Templars and mages that survived the catastrophe? Do share oh wise one, what would you have done in Irving's shoes in that situation. You are awfully critical of him. When the Chantry declares Meredith as a criminal? after, that she become an abomination, and wanted to destroy the whole Kirkwall? Great. I spoke about that Irving accepts the Right of Annulment as theory, that Irving able to accept his fate in the Tower. And didn't tried to leave or rebel. This is sad. He's not really guilty. The system is evil.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2017 23:24:43 GMT
My very first post talked about an example where Irving surrendered to the Templars peacefully and nobody killed him. This is Annulment being used as intended. The situation you're describing is what happens when the Right of Annulment is misused. Those mages would start fighting because they would think that Templars would corrupt the law and kill them instead of arresting as the Annulment demands. Once again, you're using as an example a situation when the law that's intended to do something else is being criminally misused. This is a huge part of the problem with Kirkwall because no one has faith that the laws the Chantry sets for itself will actually be followed. This doesn't mean the law is originally intended to promote mass murder. There are a lot of lawful mages willing to abide by the system and they don't want to fight at all. They would have disarmed had they believed that Annulment would be used properly. This is one fundamental difference between Circle of Magi in DAO and Kirkwall incidents. At the Cirle, Irving has faith that Gregor will follow the law properly and surrenders. At Kirkwall, mages have zero faith that Templars will follow even their own rules. This is why they start throwing fireballs instead of surrendering. Of course, the system is perfect! – No. The system is inherently evil. Of course, the good mages are obedient, and if they obedient ENOUGH, maybe, MAYBE the Templars, let them alive. Of course, who doesn't want to sit on his/her ass, and waiting for someone whim, rather wants to fight for his/her life, is guilty. I am getting an impression that I'm not heard. I am not arguing over whether I believe the Right of Annulment is good or evil. Did you see me somewhere say that the Right of Annulment is perfect or that Chantry is perfect? No. I don't recall stating my option on on either of those points.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 7, 2017 23:28:31 GMT
the Chantry the power to purge a Circle entirely IF they rule it irredeemableThis still does not imply mass murdering the innocents. That big 'if' is used in a case when every single person was turned into abomination. This still doesn't mean that if some mage surrendered and was proven to be innocent they would be executed anyway. The same way it says 'any time.' Any time means the catastrophe isn't going to wait for a specific hour and day of the week to strike. This doesn't mean you're allowed to call on Annulment on a whim. There has to be a powerful justification. I'm getting an impression that people think that with Annulment enacted the Templars are just allowed to run inside the Circle and stab dead everything that moves in it for funzies without getting any punishment. That's not how it works. And Anders and Solas' ball was the power to purge the chantry. Because they rule it irredeemable. You really don't see, what evil system is this? There's nothing good in it.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 7, 2017 23:31:38 GMT
Of course, the system is perfect! – No. The system is inherently evil. Of course, the good mages are obedient, and if they obedient ENOUGH, maybe, MAYBE the Templars, let them alive. Of course, who doesn't want to sit on his/her ass, and waiting for someone whim, rather wants to fight for his/her life, is guilty. I am getting an impression that I'm not heard. I am not arguing over whether I believe the Right of Annulment is good or evil. Did you see me somewhere say that the Right of Annulment is perfect or that Chantry is perfect? No. I don't recall stating my option on on either of those points. Why you defend the Annulment, if you think, that this is evil? I don't understand.
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Post by vonuber on Oct 7, 2017 23:31:59 GMT
As interesting as this discussion is, shouldn't it be taken to its own thread?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2017 23:43:39 GMT
What are you talking about? The Chantry declares Meredith's actions to be criminal. Irving should rebel against what? What is in your understanding of rebelling in a situation where the tower was overrun by abominations? Did you want Irving to remove his staff and start throwing fireballs at Gregor? Did you want him to murder Gregor for invoking the right on Annulment to prove that Chantry is evil? You disprove of Irving's actions for agreeing to disarm in that situation. I suppose he should have started a bloody fight that would have murdered the remaining Templars and mages that survived the catastrophe? Do share oh wise one, what would you have done in Irving's shoes in that situation. You are awfully critical of him. When the Chantry declares Meredith as a criminal? after, that she become an abomination, and wanted to destroy the whole Kirkwall? Great. I spoke about that Irving accepts the Right of Annulment as theory, that Irving able to accept his fate in the Tower. And didn't tried to leave or rebel. This is sad. He's not really guilty. The system is evil. Umm... yes... first a person commits a crime and then they are declared criminal... that's how the world works. No? Or do you wish to imprison everyone before they commit a crime? You could argue that the Chantry law took too long to investigate her offenses - nobody is disagreeing with you there that the law is failing - but this does not change the law itself. The problem is people failing to institute a law - not a law. For example law: 'if you steal from someone you are put in jail for a year (or whatever)' Is this law fair? Yes. What if someone steals but it takes 50 years to investigate that person while that person is free? Does this make the law itself unfair? No. It's the system failing. This doesn't mean this specific law is bad. Not every single person is a radical like Anders. Even in Kirkwall mages fight for different reasons. Some radicals like Anders fought the Chantry because they want it completely annihilated and they believe every single law coming out of it to be inherently evil. A lot of mages got involved in the fighting not because they hate current laws. They fought because they lost faith in the Chantry following its own laws. This doesn't mean they wanted to see the Chantry blown up. A lot of mages condemn Anders. Just because you're a mage doesn't mean you're obligated to share a common belief that the only way is to destroy the Chantry entirely. There are a lot of mages like Vivi and Irving who prefer to settle it without radical movements.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2017 23:46:25 GMT
I am getting an impression that I'm not heard. I am not arguing over whether I believe the Right of Annulment is good or evil. Did you see me somewhere say that the Right of Annulment is perfect or that Chantry is perfect? No. I don't recall stating my option on on either of those points. Why you defend the Annulment, if you think, that this is evil? I don't understand. I'm not defending it. I'm clarifying what the law is meant to do. In case you failed to notice I said, 'On my evil warden, I've invoked the Right of Annulment.' Just because I don't equate a certain law to mass murder, doesn't mean I think it's perfect or am defending it. I played 5 DAO games. Only in one of them I used the Annulment and I claimed it was on evil Warden. When I did invoke Annulment, however, I've discovered that I used to have certain misconceptions about it. It was not as brutal as I first imagined it to be.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 8, 2017 0:12:03 GMT
When the Chantry declares Meredith as a criminal? after, that she become an abomination, and wanted to destroy the whole Kirkwall? Great. I spoke about that Irving accepts the Right of Annulment as theory, that Irving able to accept his fate in the Tower. And didn't tried to leave or rebel. This is sad. He's not really guilty. The system is evil. Umm... yes... first a person commits a crime and then they are declared criminal... that's how the world works. No? Or do you wish to imprison everyone before they commit a crime? You could argue that the Chantry law took too long to investigate her offenses - nobody is disagreeing with you there that the law is failing - but this does not change the law itself. The problem is people failing to institute a law - not a law. For example law: 'if you steal from someone you are put in jail for a year (or whatever)' Is this law fair? Yes. What if someone steals but it takes 50 years to investigate that person while that person is free? Does this make the law itself unfair? No. It's the system failing. This doesn't mean this specific law is bad. Not every single person is a radical like Anders. Even in Kirkwall mages fight for different reasons. Some radicals like Anders fought the Chantry because they want it completely annihilated and they believe every single law coming out of it to be inherently evil. A lot of mages got involved in the fighting not because they hate current laws. They fought because they lost faith in the Chantry following its own laws. This doesn't mean they wanted to see the Chantry blown up. A lot of mages condemn Anders. Just because you're a mage doesn't mean you're obligated to share a common belief that the only way is to destroy the Chantry entirely. There are a lot of mages like Vivi and Irving who prefer to settle it without radical movements. Meredith for years committed criminal offenses. And Elthina knew this. NO ONE wanted to investigate. Anders was the first, who wanted to search for the evidence. No. This was not fair. Leliana was investigating ONLY the Resolutionist activity, not Meredith's crimes. Anders was Andrastian and wanted to live in a world, where the law serves the people. This current law, serves the evil. Irving did nothing against the system. Orana (Hadriana's slave) also did nothing against the system, in fact, felt sorry for Hadriana, this means, the slavery is good, and who wants to fight against is too impatient (Andraste, Shartan)...? Vivienne also did nothing against the system. And Vivienne got her chance only from Anders and Fiona, whom she despised, and from Solas' ball.
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Post by melbella on Oct 8, 2017 0:14:46 GMT
As interesting as this discussion is, shouldn't it be taken to its own thread? Aren't you the one always posting non-DA pics in this thread? Pot....kettle.
So, arguing about the Right of Annulment is what I did in DA today.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2017 0:20:11 GMT
As interesting as this discussion is, shouldn't it be taken to its own thread? My apologies. //collects her stuff and rolls out
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2017 0:34:01 GMT
As interesting as this discussion is, shouldn't it be taken to its own thread? Aren't you the one always posting non-DA pics in this thread? Pot....kettle.
So, arguing about the Right of Annulment is what I did in DA today.
Well... that comment did not spring up randomly. It comes out of my game play because it is something I've encountered in DAO and then analyzed. It's my reaction to the game play. I suppose I could just say. "Today I went to the tower and my warden used the Right on Annulment. It was not as horrible as I thought it would be." However, the discussion did steer too far from the game topic.
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Post by Nimlowyn on Oct 8, 2017 1:31:31 GMT
Found myself in Howe's prison. Killed Howe, rescued Soris, put two and two together when I got Vaughan...but I let him go because there is a blight and a civil war going on and I need every voice possible at the Landsmeet. Zevran was a bit cross but he respects me enough not to make too much of a fuss.
Busted Anora out, got caught by Cauthrien and her goons, surrendered and counted on my rogue buddies Leliana and Zevran to bust me out, which they did. Got back to Eamon's pad and had a conversation, in which I discovered that Anora wants to remain queen, which is a pretty good development for me because yes blight yes civil war but muh boyfriend.
Now it's time to check out some funny business in the alienage.
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Post by cmoe on Oct 8, 2017 3:08:23 GMT
As interesting as this discussion is, shouldn't it be taken to its own thread? My apologies. //collects her stuff and rolls out You are such a troublemaker!!! What I did in DA? Read this thread!!!
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Post by cmoe on Oct 8, 2017 3:10:18 GMT
Tonight, Calistyn got back on the road. She met some people then shot them (a recurring theme), closed some Rifts, endangered some wildlife, met a pornstar masquerading as a Warden then baked some cookies. I do like this Crestwood map. I have to say for the bajillionth time, you have amazing screenshots!
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Post by House Targaryen on Oct 8, 2017 4:27:19 GMT
Did some venturing in that place that place That is a whole lot of no where. I was waiting for some war table missions to get done before I did Here Lies the Abyss. Now that those missions are done, started Here Lies. Knocked on the door at the Warden fortress, they told us to get lost so we broke down their door. Found the misled Warden commander and had Blackwall tell here what is up. Chased after the Warden tool and her handler and confronted the Big Evil Demon Dragon Thingy. Now we entered into the Fade. This is totally awesome! I got the power! You have to ask, you old stick in the mud? I'm high as a kite. Ugh that dude that is next to you is one evil MOFO. You're his tool and you just don't know it. Preach them the gospel, Blackwall! I feel a cold evil stare from behind me. Hope Sera still isn't mad at me and she's just staring at that evil magister. I'm going to bitch slap you like I did to your cousins. Free falling. This is one bad trip, dudes. If I ignore y'all I'll wake up and this will be a bad dream.
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Post by vonuber on Oct 8, 2017 11:34:52 GMT
Tonight, Calistyn got back on the road. She met some people then shot them (a recurring theme), closed some Rifts, endangered some wildlife, met a pornstar masquerading as a Warden then baked some cookies. I do like this Crestwood map. I have to say for the bajillionth time, you have amazing screenshots! It's why it takes me so long to get anywhere in the game
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2017 13:19:54 GMT
Day 38: Noob Inquisitor Log - Snuck back into Hinterlands wandering what happened to the place after the ghouls were done with it. - Aghh!! Ack! Nice evil dragon! Please don't incinerate me! (repeatedly) All I want is to stab the red hissing goo. I don't want your cute crocodile babies that keep chewing through the plate armour on my shins. And this used to be such a peaceful bandit and abomination filled neighbourhood! - Galloped along the road towards Redcliffe to pay a visit to a noble Teagan who sent Inquisition a letter to get us to do his dirty work of kicking uninvited guests from his mine. - Found a bunch of people with problems, but not their Arl. - Stupid Varric drowned me in the lake by getting underfoot when I was jumping from boat to docks. Approval meter: +6 neutral @cmoe20
met some people then shot them (a recurring theme)At least it's like that. Mine is, met a bunch of people and got mobbed by them.
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Post by xMissWoox on Oct 8, 2017 14:22:04 GMT
I've been creating various Wardens in DAO to assign them to my Keep worldstates. During one of the Amell origins, this happened, which cracked me up:
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Post by fylimar on Oct 8, 2017 15:15:18 GMT
I've been creating various Wardens in DAO to assign them to my Keep worldstates. During one of the Amell origins, this happened, which cracked me up: When does that happen? I never encountered that - looks very strange BTW: your avatar looks like a female Negan, at least clothing wise - is that outfit a mod for MEA or is that in the original game? (It is from MEA, isn't it? I haven't played the game yet, but have seen tons of character pics over in the MEA forum)
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Post by fylimar on Oct 8, 2017 15:46:11 GMT
A bit more of Jyoti Hawkes adventures (or misadventures...) A new pet - we call him Snuggles. He doesn't fit in Gamlens house and since he tried to eat first Moya, the dog, and then peasants in Lowtown, we had to find him a nice cave outside of Kirkwall - Aveline was throwing a fit with all the people complaining about burn marks and Snuggles trying to eat them ... whiners. A classical Hawke quote This is our newest group member, he likes bondage and doesn't talk too much and he is a a bit of a religious zealot, so be nice and don't make fun of his religion (I'm looking at you two, Isabella and Anders - diplomacy for once) Yeah right, because the Qun is so super for mages - I always wanted to get my mouth sewn shut, looks comfortable ... not (go to hell, diplomacy) Ok, Anders, it's the knight captain, be nice and look unmagey, we are only wanderers admiring nature and the random corpses lying around - wave and smile ... wave and smile I like that banter with Viveka - tramp of Darktown always makes me laugh And another classical Hawke Did I mention, that I so love Emeric? He is one of the nicest minor npcs in that game, together with Sol and Charade and I adore him to pieces.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2017 16:50:02 GMT
I've been creating various Wardens in DAO to assign them to my Keep worldstates. During one of the Amell origins, this happened, which cracked me up: Nope. There's no blood magic at the Circle.
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Post by xMissWoox on Oct 8, 2017 17:28:38 GMT
I've been creating various Wardens in DAO to assign them to my Keep worldstates. During one of the Amell origins, this happened, which cracked me up: When does that happen? I never encountered that - looks very strange BTW: your avatar looks like a female Negan, at least clothing wise - is that outfit a mod for MEA or is that in the original game? (It is from MEA, isn't it? I haven't played the game yet, but have seen tons of character pics over in the MEA forum) The rage demon you fight at the end of the Harrowing set my Amell on fire, and I guess the status just continued through subsequent cutscenes. And the outfit my avatar is wearing is the 'jacket' casual outfit. As far as I know its in the base game.
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Post by Liadan on Oct 8, 2017 17:43:46 GMT
Cousland and her companions finally decided to go to Orzammar. Once they arrived they discovered that king Endrin was dead and the assembly couldn`t decide on a king. After meeting with the representatives of both candidates for the throne they decided to allied with Lord Harrowmont. First task: enter the Proving fighting as Harrowmont champion and win. Second task: defeat Jarvia. Third task: Find Branka: Near the entrance to the Deap Roads they were stop by Oghren, Branka`s husband, who asked to come along. After fighting a lot of darkspawn they finally found Ortan Thaig. There they met Ruck, restored and fought a demon, fought a lot of awful spiders and finally discovered that Branka went to the Dead Trenches. Just as they arrived in the Dead Trenches they saw a massive darkspawn horde led by the Archdemon. Helped the Legion of the Dead, led by Kardol, fight some Darkspawn. They started hearing someone chanting and followed the voice until they found Hespith, a female dwarf that was a member of Branka`s house and were her lover, who was captured by the Darkspawn. After asking her about Branka she runs away. They followed her only to discovered another member of the house, Laryn, another female dwarf now turned into a Broodmother. After defeating the Broodmother, they finally found Branka, who was obsessed with the anvil of the Void. She forced them to advance through all the trapped area in order to reach the Anvil. After passing all the trapped rooms they finally met Caridin, the inventor of the Anvil, who was turned into a golem. The warden decided to help Caridin destroy the anvil wich made Branka attacked them. After defeating Branka, Caridin used the anvil one last time to fourge a crown for the king of Orzammar. The warden destroyed the anvil as agreed and Caridin jumped into the lava. Back to the Assembly in Orzammar, the warden gave the crown to Harrowmont and he was crowned king. Prince Bhelen didn`t accept the outcome and started a fight. After Bhelen was defeated king Harrowmont promised that the dwarves will aid the wardens fight the blight.
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