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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2017 16:09:39 GMT
fylimar Err whoops.. I always mix everyone's names up. I feel so bad that Thrask died. Sadly, in my play through he also makes mistakes. When they kidnap Merill, Grace demands to kill the hostage. When Thrask denies her, Grace kills Thrask - I really wish his death could have been avoided. It is made clear that Thrask knew that some of the mages he worked with were blood mages, but he was turning a blind eye to it. In the end one of those blood mages killed him.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 22, 2017 16:12:22 GMT
I know the Templar side, and I already wrote my answers. This will not change. Sorry.I wasn’t trying to change your point of view. You’re the one who attacked one of the points I was discussing. All I said was how I feel bad for killing the Templars too in that situation. You went on to write accusing paragraphs how all Templars are in league with the evil Chantry and thus it’s all good for killing them in that situation. It sounds like it makes you angry when people discuss any other alternative than siding with mages. You’re the one who tried to change my point of view without even knowing what my point of view is. Funny part is, I said earlier that after siding with Tempars the choice of siding with mages seems like a better one. That doesn’t mean I have to be all joyful about killing Templars, especially when there are personal examples like Carver and Cullen being amongst them. The point is: Hawke doesn't KILL the Templars. Hawke FIGHTS against this Templars. But if Hawke supports Meredith, Hawke supports to KILL the mages. Not to only FIGHT against them: to KILL them. Sorry I worded badly before. Killing anyone or fighting against anyone is not same. (At least in my eyes.) This is why I don't feel bad if I support the mages. And I said: once my Hawke chose the Templars at the finish because he didn't want to fight against his brother. It was not the right decision. It was a personal and emotional decision.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2017 16:18:39 GMT
I know the Templar side, and I already wrote my answers. This will not change. Sorry.I wasn’t trying to change your point of view. You’re the one who attacked one of the points I was discussing. All I said was how I feel bad for killing the Templars too in that situation. You went on to write accusing paragraphs how all Templars are in league with the evil Chantry and thus it’s all good for killing them in that situation. It sounds like it makes you angry when people discuss any other alternative than siding with mages. You’re the one who tried to change my point of view without even knowing what my point of view is. Funny part is, I said earlier that after siding with Tempars the choice of siding with mages seems like a better one. That doesn’t mean I have to be all joyful about killing Templars, especially when there are personal examples like Carver and Cullen being amongst them. The point is: Hawke doesn't KILL the Templars. Hawke FIGHTS against this Templars. But if Hawke supports Meredith, Hawke supports to KILL the mages. Not with FIGHT against them: with KILL them. Sorry I worded badly before. Killing anyone or fighting against anyone is not same. (At least in my eyes.) This is why I don't feel bad if I support the mages. I'm talking about the physical act of ending someone's life.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 22, 2017 16:25:37 GMT
The point is: Hawke doesn't KILL the Templars. Hawke FIGHTS against this Templars. But if Hawke supports Meredith, Hawke supports to KILL the mages. Not with FIGHT against them: with KILL them. Sorry I worded badly before. Killing anyone or fighting against anyone is not same. (At least in my eyes.) This is why I don't feel bad if I support the mages. I'm talking about the physical act of ending someone's life. Still not same. But of course, a war is sad. If Hawke just sits on a corner, they still killing each other. But finishing that quickly can cause fewer victims. And supporting the aggressors, just because they have good-hearted people among them as well, is same as supporting the oppressed people who also have some corrupted people among them? I just said the two sides isn't same, not even similar. Everywhere are benevolent and malevolent people. The principle is important. Not mentioned, the DA2 never was about everyone will be happy.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2017 16:39:06 GMT
I'm talking about the physical act of ending someone's life. Still not same. But of course, a war is sad. If Hawke just sits on a corner, they still killing each other. But finishing that quickly can cause fewer victims. And supporting the aggressors, just because they have good-hearted people among them, is same as supporting the oppressed people who also have corrupted people among them? Not mentioned, the DA2 never was about everyone will be happy. Did I say anything about supporting? All I said was I feel bad about killing Templars. Can you please stop pretending that you know which side I support.
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Post by fylimar on Oct 22, 2017 16:42:20 GMT
fylimar Err whoops.. I always mix everyone's names up. I feel so bad that Thrask died. Sadly, in my play through he also makes mistakes. When they kidnap Merill, Grace demands to kill the hostage. When Thrask denies her, Grace kills Thrask - I really wish his death could have been avoided. It is made clear that Thrask knew that some of the mages he worked with were blood mages, but he was turning a blind eye to it. In the end one of those blood mages killed him. Yes, Thrasks death made me sad too. I liked him, he was a bit naive in many aspects, but he meant well. He doesn't have a lot of insight about human nature though. I distrusted Grace from the moment, she convinced me to kill the one templar, who actually tried to help her - that btw is another thing, I would have loved to have been able to address: telling Thrask that the mages, he tried to save just tried to convince to kill me. Oh and Grace defending her obviously very mad and very murdering boyfriend didn't make it better. Grace is the character, I disliked the second most, right after Petrice and just before Alrik (at least you can deal with Alrik directly).
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Post by Catilina on Oct 22, 2017 16:44:14 GMT
Still not same. But of course, a war is sad. If Hawke just sits on a corner, they still killing each other. But finishing that quickly can cause fewer victims. And supporting the aggressors, just because they have good-hearted people among them, is same as supporting the oppressed people who also have corrupted people among them? Not mentioned, the DA2 never was about everyone will be happy. Did I say anything about supporting? All I said was I feel bad about killing Templars. Can you please stop pretending that you know which side I support. Okay, you're right.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2017 16:45:43 GMT
Did I say anything about supporting? All I said was I feel bad about killing Templars. Can you please stop pretending that you know which side I support. Okay, you're right. Why are you arguing with me for three pages about how I'm wrong to support Templars when I didn't even claim that I support them?
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Post by Catilina on Oct 22, 2017 16:46:39 GMT
fylimar Err whoops.. I always mix everyone's names up. I feel so bad that Thrask died. Sadly, in my play through he also makes mistakes. When they kidnap Merill, Grace demands to kill the hostage. When Thrask denies her, Grace kills Thrask - I really wish his death could have been avoided. It is made clear that Thrask knew that some of the mages he worked with were blood mages, but he was turning a blind eye to it. In the end one of those blood mages killed him. Yes, Thrasks death made me sad too. I liked him, he was a bit naive in many aspects, but he meant well. He doesn't have a lot of insight about human nature though. I distrusted Grace from the moment, she convinced me to kill the one templar, who actually tried to help her - that btw is another thing, I would have loved to have been able to address: telling Thrask that the mages, he tried to save just tried to convince to kill me. Oh and Grace defending her obviously very mad and very murdering boyfriend didn't make it better. Grace is the character, I disliked the second most, right after Petrice and just before Alrik (at least you can deal with Alrik directly). This whole quest at mage side is weird again... But yes: Grece was mad because of the death of Decimus. Starkhaven Circle made a lot of mad(wo)man. Quentin was from the Starkhaven Circle too.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 22, 2017 16:48:15 GMT
Why are you arguing with me for three pages about how I'm wrong to support Templars when I didn't even claim that I support them? Because you said, the two sides are similar. I know, I attract people to arguing against me, even if they tend to agree with me. I suppose, I'm aggressive a bit and uncompromising.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2017 16:52:07 GMT
Why are you arguing with me for three pages about how I'm wrong to support Templars when I didn't even claim that I support them? Because you said, the two sides are similar. Yes. Both sides have good people in them whom I don't want dead. You said so yourself that both groups have good and bad people in them.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 22, 2017 16:54:45 GMT
Because you said, the two sides are similar. Yes. Both sides have good people on them whom I don't want dead. You said so yourself that both groups have good and bad people in them. Nobody wants dead. This not means that both sides are same.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2017 17:00:00 GMT
Yes. Both sides have good people on them whom I don't want dead. You said so yourself that both groups have good and bad people in them. Nobody wants dead. This not means that both sides are same. I didn't claim mages and Templars had the same amount of power. I said there are good people on Templar side and I feel bad killing them. Both groups have good and bad in them - they're not different in this aspect.
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Post by fylimar on Oct 22, 2017 17:01:03 GMT
Yes, Thrasks death made me sad too. I liked him, he was a bit naive in many aspects, but he meant well. He doesn't have a lot of insight about human nature though. I distrusted Grace from the moment, she convinced me to kill the one templar, who actually tried to help her - that btw is another thing, I would have loved to have been able to address: telling Thrask that the mages, he tried to save just tried to convince to kill me. Oh and Grace defending her obviously very mad and very murdering boyfriend didn't make it better. Grace is the character, I disliked the second most, right after Petrice and just before Alrik (at least you can deal with Alrik directly). This whole quest at mage side is weird again... But yes: Grece was mad because of the death of Decimus. Starkhaven Circle made a lot of mad(wo)man. Quentin was from the Starkhaven Circle too. Was Quentin from Starkhaven? Well, I will play the quest again shortly, so I will pay more attention to the letters and stuff in Quentins lair. But I did get the feeling, that Grace was just a bad person, no matter where she did come from. And I would have understood, that she was momentarily out of her mind for loosing her boyfriend (although I would call it good riddance), but she killed Thrask six years later and he was never anything but kind to her, he even helped her in the fight for freedom. And then he disagreed in a mild mannered way and she gets all Hannibal Lecter on him.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 22, 2017 17:03:06 GMT
Nobody wants dead. This not means that both sides are same. I didn't claim mages and Templars had the same amount of power. I said there are good people on Templar side and I feel bad killing them. Both groups have good and bad in them - they're not different in this aspect. Yes. There are good-hearted Magisters and malevolent slaves. They're not different...
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Post by Catilina on Oct 22, 2017 17:04:24 GMT
This whole quest at mage side is weird again... But yes: Grece was mad because of the death of Decimus. Starkhaven Circle made a lot of mad(wo)man. Quentin was from the Starkhaven Circle too. Was Quentin from Starkhaven? Well, I will play the quest again shortly, so I will pay more attention to the letters and stuff in Quentins lair. But I did get the feeling, that Grace was just a bad person, no matter where she did come from. And I would have understood, that she was momentarily out of her mind for loosing her boyfriend (although I would call it good riddance), but she killed Thrask six years later and he was never anything but kind to her, he even helped her in the fight for freedom. And then he disagreed in a mild mannered way and she gets all Hannibal Lecter on him. Quentin is an escaped mage from Starkhaven's Circle of Magi, a blood mage with considerable knowledge of necromancy who was driven insane by the death of his wife. You're right about Grece... she was a revengeful bitch. And thought that Hawke betrayed them, this is why the Templars caught them.
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Post by fylimar on Oct 22, 2017 17:07:19 GMT
Was Quentin from Starkhaven? Well, I will play the quest again shortly, so I will pay more attention to the letters and stuff in Quentins lair. But I did get the feeling, that Grace was just a bad person, no matter where she did come from. And I would have understood, that she was momentarily out of her mind for loosing her boyfriend (although I would call it good riddance), but she killed Thrask six years later and he was never anything but kind to her, he even helped her in the fight for freedom. And then he disagreed in a mild mannered way and she gets all Hannibal Lecter on him. Quentin is an escaped mage from Starkhaven's Circle of Magi, a blood mage with considerable knowledge of necromancy who was driven insane by the death of his wife. You're right about Grece... she was a revengeful bitch. Thanks for clearing that up, I mostly run through his lair. I read Orsinos letter, but mostly I like to have that quest done, it's so sad
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2017 17:11:52 GMT
I didn't claim mages and Templars had the same amount of power. I said there are good people on Templar side and I feel bad killing them. Both groups have good and bad in them - they're not different in this aspect. Yes. There are good-hearted Magisters and malevolent slaves. They're not different... In your opinion Templars = slavers. Anyone who is a part of a Templar system = slaver and cannot be good by default. No compromise. My views are not as radical as yours and I don't feel like being attacked for finding something good in Templars.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 22, 2017 17:15:11 GMT
Yes. There are good-hearted Magisters and malevolent slaves. They're not different... In your opinion Templars = slavers. Anyone who is a part of a Templar system = slaver and cannot be good by default. No compromise. My views are not as radical as yours and I don't feel like being attacked for finding something good in Templars. According to Fenris, there are noble Magisters, who suited well their position (first time at Gallows). Dorian is a part of the system, still, we can say, he's a good man. But the slavery's evil, no compromise. This not about the Templars, they are misled by the Chantry. This is about the Chantry. Many Templars really try to protect people. But this is an evil system, no compromise. You're right, no compromise.
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Post by anarchy65 on Oct 22, 2017 17:32:40 GMT
Is this really a discussion? LOL
No matter which side you choose in any conflict, there will be "good people" on both sides. If you decide to fight against nazis to protect jews, you'll have to kill some nazis who are "good people" that were doing what they were told. If you decide to help slaves, you'll fight against some slavers who are "good people". The problem, the bigger picture is the system: Slavery is wrong, nazism is wrong, chantry system is wrong, tyranny is wrong, etc. And hey, if you fight against people because they want to kill innocent mages, I consider that self-defense.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2017 17:42:56 GMT
In your opinion Templars = slavers. Anyone who is a part of a Templar system = slaver and cannot be good by default. No compromise. My views are not as radical as yours and I don't feel like being attacked for finding something good in Templars. According to Fenris, there are noble Magisters, who suited well their position (first time at Gallows). This not about the Templars, they are misled by the Chantry. This is about the Chantry. Many Templars really try to protect people. But you're right, this is an evil system, no compromise. The way you and I play the game is completely different. Your goal in the game is to bring about mage revolution because you cannot compromise on them obtaining freedom and all means used are justified towards that goal. My Hawke is played in a completely different manner where she's centered around personal survival and her inner moral compass. She deals with each situation independently rather than pitting each action against a bigger picture. Mage summoning demons = bad -> stab. Templar abusing mage = bad -> stab. She is an independent power not committed to any side up until she's forced to pick a side by the game. If you simplify and sum up her position it would be: you guys are both nuts.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 22, 2017 17:52:05 GMT
According to Fenris, there are noble Magisters, who suited well their position (first time at Gallows).
This not about the Templars, they are misled by the Chantry. This is about the Chantry. Many Templars really try to protect people. But you're right, this is an evil system, no compromise. The way you and I play the game is completely different.
Your goal in the game is to bring about mage revolution because you cannot compromise on them obtaining freedom and all means used are justified towards that goal.
My Hawke is played in a completely different manner where she's centered around personal survival and her inner moral compass. She deals with each situation independently rather than pitting each action against a bigger picture. Mage summoning demons = bad -> stab. Templar abusing mage = bad -> stab. She is an independent power not committed to any side up until she's forced to pick a side by the game. If you simplify and sum up her position it would be: you guys are both nuts. I said, I have a Hawke who chose the Templars for Carver. (I felt bad.) And there are many reasons to support the Templars: Hawke can believe, that they can restore the order in the city with killing the Mages (hardly, Meredith seems lunatic tyrant, but still, we can say, but the Chantry and the Templars seem powerful). This also can be a "good" reason, and the cost only the annulment and possibly to betray Bethany... everything has a cost, yes. Varric, for example, supports more if Hawke chose the Templars. For this reason. To fight for the mages has cost too: to face with Templar Carver. Never forget: he chose his fate, and he would be able to leave Meredith. But if you talk with Warden Carver, when Hawke chose the Templar side, Carver will be angry, because Hawke betrayed his/her own fellows. He still supports Hawke, bit not so happy. Bethany of course, similar.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2017 17:57:32 GMT
Is this really a discussion? LOL No matter which side you choose in any conflict, there will be "good people" on both sides. If you decide to fight against nazis to protect jews, you'll have to kill some nazis who are "good people" that were doing what they were told. If you decide to help slaves, you'll fight against some slavers who are "good people". The problem, the bigger picture is the system: Slavery is wrong, nazism is wrong, chantry system is wrong, tyranny is wrong, etc. And hey, if you fight against people because they want to kill innocent mages, I consider that self-defense. If you have a brother working for the nazis and you don't want him to die that doesn't make you nazi supporter. It means you'll be upset if your brother dies. You're right. This argument IS stupid.
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Post by anarchy65 on Oct 22, 2017 17:59:59 GMT
Is this really a discussion? LOL No matter which side you choose in any conflict, there will be "good people" on both sides. If you decide to fight against nazis to protect jews, you'll have to kill some nazis who are "good people" that were doing what they were told. If you decide to help slaves, you'll fight against some slavers who are "good people". The problem, the bigger picture is the system: Slavery is wrong, nazism is wrong, chantry system is wrong, tyranny is wrong, etc. And hey, if you fight against people because they want to kill innocent mages, I consider that self-defense. If you have a brother working for the nazis and you don't want him to die that doesn't make you nazi supporter. It means you'll be upset if your brother dies. You're right. This argument IS stupid. It doesn't make your choice "right" either. It only makes it emotional and personal.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2017 18:09:36 GMT
If you have a brother working for the nazis and you don't want him to die that doesn't make you nazi supporter. It means you'll be upset if your brother dies. You're right. This argument IS stupid. It doesn't make your choice "right" either. It only makes it emotional and personal. I never said that Templar choice is the right one and Mage is the wrong one. You don't even know what my opinion is on this matter. Did you even read the entire discussion before going ahead and comparing me to a nazi? That is completely offensive.
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