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Post by Heimdall on Jan 3, 2017 13:36:58 GMT
To be brief because typing lengthy posts one handed on the train is hard:
I agree with the criticisms that certain big quests should not have been purely done through the war table. Most egregiously through the Lavellan storyline, events with those kind of reprocussions should not have been relegated to a few lines of text. I think sending agents on some high stakes missions makes sense to a degree, the Inquisitor can't be everywhere, but such events should have greater consequences and story presence outside the war table.
The one seriously missed opportunity was crafting. The war table should have been a way for us to get materials, at least the more common ones, in bulk. It seems the devs were worried about disincentivizing resource gathering altogether, but that could have remained for rare plants and materials. It should not have been more efficient for the Inquisitor to walk all the way to the hinterlands to gather elfroot than sending minions to do it on the wartable. The devs seemed caught between wanting us to be able to delegate like a real leader does and still keeping us as an adventuring company.
That being said, I expect the new PC is not going to be leading an organization. If my theory is right and we end up with dual protagonist scenario where the new PC is working for the Inquisition through Dorian in Tevinter, I could see war table opportunities for the new PC cropping up as the new PC gains their trust and might be able to manage some operations. More interestingly, I'd like to see the Inquisitor making some war table decisions that have a direct impact on the world as explored and experienced by the new PC.
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correctamundo
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Post by correctamundo on Jan 3, 2017 13:42:40 GMT
Yes, the Lavellan clan screw-up must've been a deadline thing. Time just ran out. But I do like that we can royally screw up our own life. I was as much in shock as most must have been when it dawned on me that I just mismanaged my whole family to Death, and no reaction at all...Something just must have been lost there.
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Post by thats1evildude on Jan 3, 2017 15:15:34 GMT
I think that more WT operations should have had a Power cost rather than a time requirement. That would have helped address the Power glut in the main game. And if they had it so that the resource-gathering missions cost power but brought in more resources, that would be even better. There is only a power glut if you do everything, which is not guaranteed. On my very first play I was struggling for power. As I said in my post, you can't control how people play the game. Then you don't get to do some of the optional WT operations that require Power. You want the extra rewards, put in the work.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Jan 3, 2017 16:20:40 GMT
I wasn't referring to struggling for power on optional missions, but on main missions.
The combined power for accessing the Here Lies the Abysss mission is 36 total power. That is a lot if you're not doing a lot of extra questing and such.
1 Unlock Crestwood - 8 2 Unlock Western Approach - 8 3 Here Lies the Abyss - 20
Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts costs 30.
Now of course I do everything, even skip those requisitions, and do have a glut of power, but not on that first play.
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Post by melbella on Jan 3, 2017 16:33:26 GMT
That's probably one reason why the influence peddler is a thing. For every 1 item you buy from him, regardless of cost, you get 1 power.
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Post by javeart on Jan 3, 2017 16:46:12 GMT
That's probably one reason why the influence peddler is a thing. For every 1 item you buy from him, regardless of cost, you get 1 power. Not to derail the thread, but I can't help myself because it's my biggest problem with DAI That guy helps, if you have the money, but if you don't have the power you surely wont have the money either, though that's a minor problem, because you can get it by other means (not that getting it by other means is so much fun either), but I have found no other way to get the influence to get the guy in the first place, than doing some side missions. I really hate it. Why force anyone to do side missions if they don't want to? What's the point? I find it so annying But again, and bringing it back to topic , I have no problem with power being requiered for the WT, since that is optional, I'd rather use it in that, and it kind of makes sense, and especially if used to get resources, I think it's fair trade
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Post by melbella on Jan 3, 2017 16:51:10 GMT
Well, I guess if you are playing an rpg, side missions go with the territory. That's how you gain xp, loot, gold, etc. Why should DAI be any different?
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Post by javeart on Jan 3, 2017 17:08:08 GMT
Well, I guess if you are playing an rpg, side missions go with the territory. That's how you gain xp, loot, gold, etc. Why should DAI be any different? I'm not against side missions at all, I'm not saying DAI shouldn't have them. I enjoy doing them in some pt, and I always usually do most of them in other games (DA2 is my favourite in this regard) I just don't want to be forced to do them, particularly because I don't like DAI side missions as much as I do in other games. And I have never had this problem in other DA games, I have always been able to skip any side mission I don't feel like doing. That was my point edit: that is not the point of the thread, I know, so I'll stop now
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Post by Nightscrawl on Jan 3, 2017 17:08:35 GMT
Well, I guess if you are playing an rpg, side missions go with the territory. That's how you gain xp, loot, gold, etc. Why should DAI be any different? Well, this doesn't apply to me, but some people, on their 10th play or whatever, want to get through some of the content and don't bother with anything that's not required.
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Post by Heimdall on Jan 3, 2017 17:25:29 GMT
Well, I guess if you are playing an rpg, side missions go with the territory. That's how you gain xp, loot, gold, etc. Why should DAI be any different? Well, this doesn't apply to me, but some people, on their 10th play or whatever, want to get through some of the content and don't bother with anything that's not required. I dunno, I don't think it's necessary to cater the main path to minimalists. They actually kinda did in DAI, which is part of why the Corypheus fight was so underwhelming. The better way to handle that particular aspect might be level scaling, but regarding side content: I'm of the view that requiring some side content to proceed is okay as long as it isn't too much. I mean, that's basically the whole premise of DA2's first act "Go forth and do crap for coin." As for where that balance is, I have no idea, I'm too much of a completionist and haven't had this problem in most games outside of JRPGs that all but require grinding to proceed.
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Post by javeart on Jan 3, 2017 17:44:18 GMT
Well, this doesn't apply to me, but some people, on their 10th play or whatever, want to get through some of the content and don't bother with anything that's not required. I dunno, I don't think it's necessary to cater the main path to minimalists. They actually kinda did in DAI, which is part of why the Corypheus fight was so underwhelming. The better way to handle that particular aspect might be level scaling, but regarding side content: I'm of the view that requiring some side content to proceed is okay as long as it isn't too much. I mean, that's basically the whole premise of DA2's first act "Go forth and do crap for coin." As for where that balance is, I have no idea, I'm too much of a completionist and haven't had this problem in most games outside of JRPGs that all but require grinding to proceed. Why would be not including power requirements, something that have never been included before, suddenly catering to minimalists? I don't even consider myself a minimalist (well, maybe with DAI because as I said, I don't enjoy its side-mission as much, so I ony have 2 +100 hours pt and 2 +50 hours pt, and lots of fast pt) I just don't always play the game the same way. And in DA2, in the first act, there are 6 obligatory mission, IIRC, plus all the recruitments, I don't think you need to do any side missions if you don't want to. You ave also the guy that lends you money, but I don't think I have ever needed him. I don't remember being forced to do side missions in DAO either. In ME, there's ME2, but in DA, I think is only DAI. Again, I'm not saying I want them to stop doing something they have always done, it's the opposite. I feel like i'm hijacking the thread, I'm sorry
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Post by Heimdall on Jan 3, 2017 18:12:43 GMT
I dunno, I don't think it's necessary to cater the main path to minimalists. They actually kinda did in DAI, which is part of why the Corypheus fight was so underwhelming. The better way to handle that particular aspect might be level scaling, but regarding side content: I'm of the view that requiring some side content to proceed is okay as long as it isn't too much. I mean, that's basically the whole premise of DA2's first act "Go forth and do crap for coin." As for where that balance is, I have no idea, I'm too much of a completionist and haven't had this problem in most games outside of JRPGs that all but require grinding to proceed. Why would be not including power requirements, something that have never been included before, suddenly catering to minimalists? I don't even consider myself a minimalist (well, maybe with DAI because as I said, I don't enjoy its side-mission as much, so I ony have 2 +100 hours pt and 2 +50 hours pt, and lost of fast pt) I just don't always play the game the same way. And in DA2, in the first act, there are 6 obligatory mission, IIRC, plus all the recruitments, I don't think you need to do any side missions if you don't want to. You ave also the guy that lends you money, but I don't think I have ever needed him. I don't remeMber being forced to do side mission in DAO either. In ME, there's ME2, but in DA, I think is only DAI. Again, I'm not saying I want them to stop doing something they have always done, it's the opposite. I feel like i'm hijacking the thread, I'm sorry Well, I'm thinking in the sense of catering to minimal effort beyond the primary path, not power requirements specifically, the same applies if you avoided all side quests in DAO. In DAO it was a total non-issue because of level scaling, so I don't have a problem with it. I think that's a good way to handle it. In DA2, I know there were main quests, but if you didn't look in the journal you wouldn't be able to tell the difference and that's how I tend to think of them. I do think it's pretty difficult to get 50g doing only those six quests, but I'm not sure off the top of my head. I'm not saying I think there should be a big sidequest barrier to progress or that I liked the power system, I just don't think requiring a few sidequests, especially if it doesn't matter which ones, is unreasonable. DAI used its power requirement as a level barrier really, especially early on (And becoming less effective later). If you had not accumulated enough power there was a good chance you were probably underleveled for the new content. It was also part of the devs' attempt to give you a sense for the Inquisition's power in game, give you a sense of the Inquisition accumulating power and using it to expand across Thedas. I think this turned out to be a rather clumsy tool, but I can see the narrative and gameplay purpose it was meant to serve.
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correctamundo
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Post by correctamundo on Jan 3, 2017 18:46:43 GMT
In a game like DAO side quests like Lost souls, Still Waters, Silence on the plains etc are obligate glued into the main quests. You can skip some but most you're stuck with whether you like it or not. Unless you mod them out - like skip the fade. And even if the total power to push hHere lies the abyss forward is 36 and 8 of those is Crestwood I don't see the problem because if a player can't be bothered with Still Waters, Caer Bronach, and a camp on the way then well... That is eleven power, with burden of command you get 13. I mean i don't see anything different there than dealing with Jarvia, Cultists in the temple, undead in the elven ruins etc.
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Post by javeart on Jan 3, 2017 18:54:18 GMT
Well, I'm thinking in the sense of catering to minimal effort beyond the primary path, not power requirements specifically, the same applies if you avoided all side quests in DAO. In DAO it was a total non-issue because of level scaling, so I don't have a problem with it. I think that's a good way to handle it. In DA2, I know there were main quests, but if you didn't look in the journal you wouldn't be able to tell the difference and that's how I tend to think of them. I do think it's pretty difficult to get 50g doing only those six quests, but I'm not sure off the top of my head. I'm not saying I think there should be a big sidequest barrier to progress or that I liked the power system, I just don't think requiring a few sidequests, especially if it doesn't matter which ones, is unreasonable. DAI used its power requirement as a level barrier really, especially early on (And becoming less effective later). If you had not accumulated enough power there was a good chance you were probably underleveled for the new content. It was also part of the devs' attempt to give you a sense for the Inquisition's power in game, give you a sense of the Inquisition accumulating power and using it to expand across Thedas. I think this turned out to be a rather clumsy tool, but I can see the narrative and gameplay purpose it was meant to serve. I see. If it's a matter of leveling, I think I agree, and in fact I actually enjoy the challenge of going through the game with basic equipment and underleveled, but I don't have any problem with lowering the difficulty if at some point I get too frustrated, and I think it's the way it should be if you're doing a fast pt, I'm ok with that. I'm just against the power requirement thing :/ Though I understand what you mean, but if the Inquisition growth it's something really important to the game, I'd prefered if they would have found a way to add it to the main path, and make a mission or two (with their own cinematics, etc) related to this, though personally I'm fine with the main path being just about Corypheus, and all the Inquisition stuff being relegated mostly to side missions (for me there would be still a matter of quality over quantity here, but that's a different question), so you can do it if you feel like exploring that part of the story. I'd rather have as many main missions tied specifically to Corypheus as they could give us (and if on top of that, I wasn't forced to do side missions in every pt, it would have been perfect for me )
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Post by Nightscrawl on Jan 3, 2017 19:09:40 GMT
In a game like DAO side quests like Lost souls, Still Waters, Silence on the plains etc are obligate glued into the main quests. You can skip some but most you're stuck with whether you like it or not. Unless you mod them out - like skip the fade. And even if the total power to push hHere lies the abyss forward is 36 and 8 of those is Crestwood I don't see the problem because if a player can't be bothered with Still Waters, Caer Bronach, and a camp on the way then well... That is eleven power, with burden of command you get 13. I mean i don't see anything different there than dealing with Jarvia, Cultists in the temple, undead in the elven ruins etc. I was just giving those as examples of the amounts of power required. I mean, I did stuff on my first play, so I don't know why I was lacking for power at certain times. By the end of the game I was just fine. Keep in mind that this is November 2014 here, so I'm not going to recall exactly how I played for the first time.
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Post by javeart on Jan 3, 2017 19:17:19 GMT
In a game like DAO side quests like Lost souls, Still Waters, Silence on the plains etc are obligate glued into the main quests. You can skip some but most you're stuck with whether you like it or not. Unless you mod them out - like skip the fade. And even if the total power to push hHere lies the abyss forward is 36 and 8 of those is Crestwood I don't see the problem because if a player can't be bothered with Still Waters, Caer Bronach, and a camp on the way then well... That is eleven power, with burden of command you get 13. I mean i don't see anything different there than dealing with Jarvia, Cultists in the temple, undead in the elven ruins etc. I never thought of Jarvia as a side mission, Harrowmond asks you to do that, and the same goes for the fade or the cultists. You actually made me doubt and I looked up in the wiki if they were considered as such, butI don't see them in the category side-quest... it would have surprised me it they were, since all of them are tied to the main story. Tied to the main story in a way Still Waters is not, IMO, and that's the difference (lack of cinematics don't help for me, either) though specifically this one I like and it's very easy to do in your way to Stroud refuge, so is one I always do. Lost souls and Silence in the plains is a different matter, since I don't even unlock Fallow Mire if I'm doing a fast pt (you have to do quite a few things to get back the 8 power points it costs to unlock it) and I only unlock Exalted Plains because of Solas's quest (and again, once I'm there, I have to do some side-quests just to get even, but i usually choose helping the Dalish instead of helping the Orlesians). Btw, I like Before the Dawn, because it is tied to the main story, and it's a pain, precisely because of the power points, because you have to unlock Emprise du Lion and the Emerald Graves... I'm thinking now that power requirements not only hurts my enjoyment of a pt focused in main missions, but also made it harder to enjoy the side missions I like... But the things is, that taking out power requirement would hurt no one, that's what I don't get. Who benefits from needing 30 points to unlock a mission or 8 points to unlock a new map? What good does this system make?
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Post by gervaise21 on Jan 3, 2017 19:29:00 GMT
That cumulative effect of which advisor you used to determine the "type" of Inquisition you are was another reason for my backlog first time round. I wanted to be either diplomatic or espionage but there were so many missions where Leliana was obviously the best choice it was taking forever to work through my list. Meanwhile Cullen twiddled his thumbs because I didn't want a military organisation. I assumed that the game would take it into account even if you were only using him to collect resources.
Then at the end of the day it didn't really make much difference what sort of organisation you were. There was one mention of it by Morrigan but so far as I could tell it didn't affect the outcomes in any other way in the epilogue. It was like the upgrades to Skyhold. It didn't really mean anything.
Now instead of having us running around looking for elfroot in order to upgrade Skyhold, may be it should have been dependent on how many War Table missions you complete of a particular type. So each mission has only one advisor in charge of it but you have only a certain number you are allowed to do. That way you never get to do them all in one run through and depending on which ones you choose, determines how the Keep is upgraded. Choose mostly espionage and Skyhold upgrades differently to if you choose mostly diplomacy or military.
It may well be that is what they originally intended. You will recall they said we would be able to upgrade the Keeps according to your type of Inquisition and I think that probably applied to Skyhold as well. Then they admitted they run out of time and so the other Keeps could not be customised at all and Skyhold was limited to Chantry Garden versus nature Garden; mage tower versus Templar tower and infirmary versus military training ring.
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Post by correctamundo on Jan 3, 2017 21:19:22 GMT
In a game like DAO side quests like Lost souls, Still Waters, Silence on the plains etc are obligate glued into the main quests. You can skip some but most you're stuck with whether you like it or not. Unless you mod them out - like skip the fade. And even if the total power to push hHere lies the abyss forward is 36 and 8 of those is Crestwood I don't see the problem because if a player can't be bothered with Still Waters, Caer Bronach, and a camp on the way then well... That is eleven power, with burden of command you get 13. I mean i don't see anything different there than dealing with Jarvia, Cultists in the temple, undead in the elven ruins etc. I never thought of Jarvia as a side mission, Harrowmond asks you to do that, and the same goes for the fade or the cultists. You actually made me doubt and I looked up in the wiki if they were considered as such, butI don't see them in the category side-quest... it would have surprised me it they were, since all of them are tied to the main story. Tied to the main story in a way Still Waters is not, IMO, and that's the difference (lack of cinematics don't help for me, either) though specifically this one I like and it's very easy to do in your way to Stroud refuge, so is one I always do. Lost souls and Silence in the plains is a different matter, since I don't even unlock Fallow Mire if I'm doing a fast pt (you have to do quite a few things to get back the 8 power points it costs to unlock it) and I only unlock Exalted Plains because of Solas's quest (and again, once I'm there, I have to do some side-quests just to get even, but i usually choose helping the Dalish instead of helping the Orlesians). Btw, I like Before the Dawn, because it is tied to the main story, and it's a pain, precisely because of the power points, because you have to unlock Emprise du Lion and the Emerald Graves... I'm thinking now that power requirements not only hurts my enjoyment of a pt focused in main missions, but also made it harder to enjoy the side missions I like... But the things is, that taking out power requirement would hurt no one, that's what I don't get. Who benefits from needing 30 points to unlock a mission or 8 points to unlock a new map? What good does this system make? Jarvia is main quest because reasons. Nothing else. There is a hidden power requirement to progress the main quest. It just goes by another name. You should just be able to run past the guard into the deep roads. In DAI they give us a choice and it's a bad thing? Still waters is very much tied to the main story of the Inquisition. Remember "restore order, find those responsible, with or without your approval"? And there are "cinematics" tied to the Still waters questline. Personally I don't care either way about the power requirements because I will do the side-quests anyway. Just as I do them in DAO and DA2. I guess it is there as a guide to progress. In a game like DAO it's very linear. You have to go through these mooks to get to boss. In DAI you get a much larger choice of mooks to go through.
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Post by vertigomez on Jan 3, 2017 21:22:24 GMT
I really loved the war table for the sense of scope it gave you. It made you feel like the head of an international organization, hearing from petitioners and delegating tasks to your advisors. I doubt we'll see the exact same thing in the next game because (I'm guessing) we'll be small fry compared to the Inquisitor... more like Hawke or the Warden before they became Warden-Commander.
I think it'd be interesting to have a companion version; whoever isn't on your four-man team can be sent to collect supplies or deal with bandits or something when you're away. It'd be on a smaller scale than the war table and you'd have more "advisors" (in this case, just your leftover companions).
No more killing your family off-screen and not having any emotional reaction, though. That was ridiculous. :/
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Post by javeart on Jan 3, 2017 21:39:05 GMT
Jarvia is main quest because reasons. Nothing else. There is a hidden power requirement to progress the main quest. It just goes by another name. You should just be able to run past the guard into the deep roads. In DAI they give us a choice and it's a bad thing? Still waters is very much tied to the main story of the Inquisition. Remember "restore order, find those responsible, with or without your approval"? And there are "cinematics" tied to the Still waters questline. Personally I don't care either way about the power requirements because I will do the side-quests anyway. Just as I do them in DAO and DA2. I guess it is there as a guide to progress. In a game like DAO it's very linear. You have to go through these mooks to get to boss. In DAI you get a much larger choice of mooks to go through. About jarvia, the fade, the cultists, etc being masked side-missions and about the "restoring order" line being enough as to make any side quest tied to the main mission just because you solve a problem, I guess we just have to agree to disagree, particularly because I feel bad already for talking so much about something that's not the topic. I'm glad to know though that if I was so lucky that the power requeriment system was never to be included again it wouldn't bother you (and hopefully no one else)
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Post by amoebae † on Jan 5, 2017 17:30:11 GMT
If they were to keep the general concept of the war table, as a gameplay mechanic I'd prefer to see fewer quests, but more meaningful ones. I'd like to see it integrated better into the rest of the game. It would feel more worthwhile and less like busy work if the war table was a way of deciding whether to allocate tasks to your various soldiers or whether to go on the mission yourself - with the reward being scaled appropriately. It could be integrated more fully into the other side quests that are picked up along the way, allowing them to be carried out by subordinates if desired.
What this would mean is that while you want to help out the starving and cold people at the Crossroads in The Hinterlands, (and if you want to benefit from some kind of power reward for it,) you could go to the war table and direct a small group of scouts to collect ram meat instead of either you doing it yourself or avoiding it completely. At the same time, some of the missions that were started at the war table could be embarked upon by you and your team mates, but only if you'd want to.
It would require there being far fewer war table missions, but with the correct allocation of resources it could make this busy work more meaningful, better integrated, and revamp the other busy work of random in-the-field side quests as well.
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Post by parsival on Jan 7, 2017 10:34:29 GMT
I really liked the war table missions and the subtle ways one required skill and judgement (and a little luck!) to get the best outcomes. My only suggestion for improvement would have been to link them to the multi-player game in some way - perhaps a successful war table mission could have unlocked a useable Agent, for example.
Having said that, I think it's generally a moot point - I don't see them returning in DA:4, as I don't think the main character will be leading an Inquisition size organisation.
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Post by witchcocktor on Jan 7, 2017 12:40:54 GMT
I mean, it really depends on what the story of DA4 is? The war table wasn't just there as a map, but it was part of building the Inquisition, gathering fame and resources, and determining the direction the Inquisition will take, as well as enhancing the Inquisitor's role as a leader (and what kind of a leader). If the story of DA4 isn't going to be running any sort of big political organization, I'm not sure how war table could be implemented as nothing else but a map with quest markers.
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Post by Sanunes on Jan 7, 2017 14:06:03 GMT
I really liked the war table missions and the subtle ways one required skill and judgement (and a little luck!) to get the best outcomes. My only suggestion for improvement would have been to link them to the multi-player game in some way - perhaps a successful war table mission could have unlocked a useable Agent, for example. Having said that, I think it's generally a moot point - I don't see them returning in DA:4, as I don't think the main character will be leading an Inquisition size organisation. If they have any ties to MP from SP, people will riot again and I just don't see them wanting to open that can of worms again. Even though they said multiple times it was a mistake when checking the final numbers in Mass Effect 3 people still complain that they intentionally made it so you needed MP for the "breath ending".
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Post by melbella on Jan 7, 2017 18:35:52 GMT
A WT might be a way to involve the Inquisitor in DA4. Inquisitor picks a WT op - new PC gets it done.
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