SaikyoMcRyu
N3
Servant
Protected By Fabrication Rights Management (FRM)
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by SaikyoMcRyu on Jan 4, 2017 11:02:03 GMT
As many of you know, the BioWare mods locked the romance discussion threads on the now-closed BSN forums in 2013. As the old forums are now offline because BioWare loves us, I assume this was done because people were being jerks to each other over various aspects of the different love interests in the game. With this site being the de facto ME:A forum, does anyone have suggestions on how to manage the huge spike in romance discussions that will follow the game's release? What are some ground rules, if any, that should be put in place for this forum to keep it friendly? The full forum rules, which cover a large number of situations, are here.Personally, I would recommend closely policing "Fantastic Racism" discussions, as I believe those were the cause of a lot of flamewars on the old BSN. For a variety of reasons, a lot of people take it personally when someone trashes an entire fantasy race of non-existent beings. This sounds dumb to casual gamers, but I saw a number of topics spiral out of control because of this exact reason (making the old debates on how exactly Ashley Williams views aliens looks tame). Such discussions get magnified when concerning a LI. Not trying to second guess the mods here, who have done a great job - I just hope we can agree to discuss character and romance topics in ME:A politely and keep this mindset when the game is released. Keep in mind that the release will probably bring a large number of new members in, which will create a big workload for the mods. If veteran members of this community help steer discussions in a calmer direction, I think we'll all support a better environment in which to discuss ME:A. Edit: Re-titled to read "post-release"
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2017 12:25:29 GMT
I'm still spewing I wasn't around for Tali's sweat and the diehard Miranda fanboyism In all seriousness though, the mods here are sparkling compared to the moronic mods on the original BSN forum. Without a doubt there will be a lot of tension and flaming, but at least these guys will examine the context of discussions before dishing out bans and punishments, so it will be fair. I think the shitstorm will be inevitable, especially when people can't romance who they want due to "character-gated" romance options, or somebody gets offended by X showing off too much arse or cleavage, or Y and Z are "too ugly", etc.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2017 13:08:25 GMT
Dunno about mods, I will just keep out of anything that turns unfriendly. Normally I self censor at two exchanges that repeat the same thing, and if a user's wording or position is unpleasant, I use block function and go browse The good old flame warriors website to distruct myself from the need to say something, when there is really no need, just want. Works wonders.
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Post by hammerstorm on Jan 4, 2017 13:10:39 GMT
I will just trust the Mods to do their best. And if we look at what is in this part of the forum already, I think the Mods are capable of judging threads fair. (I for instance should have closed a couple stupid and unnecessary threads, which explain why I never tried to be a mod). But it will be interesting (kind of) to see what sort of stupid threads that will pop up after release.
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Post by Muddy Boots on Jan 4, 2017 15:35:44 GMT
I'll put my trust in the mods. If a thread is getting uncomfortable for me and too vicious, I'll just avoid it and go in search for a more mature discussion on some other topic.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Jan 4, 2017 15:45:50 GMT
Well, if you guys would like one mod's perspective on a few things: I firmly believe the nuking of the romance section on the old BSN was pure Priestly spite and laziness (or whatever else makes someone not do their job) and I have never been shy in saying so. I'm fairly confident none of our mods have this problem. Having started out in the Romance section, Miranda thread (and yes, I was there during the so-called Miranda Civil War) I know and understand the heights of insane obsession passion these things can reach. So I know what to expect and have no fear of meeting it head-on. I am one of many so I can't officially declare policy at this time, but as long as I'm around, I will try my damndest to make sure the Romance section is allowed to do its thing while still getting the moderation it needs to keep the craziness manageable. Anyway, we'll keep this thread in mind when deciding what if any additional policies need to be put in place for the Andromeda romance section. I commend the forethought in getting the ball rolling on this discussion though, your feedback is always welcome. And I appreciate our current efforts being appreciated
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2017 15:52:22 GMT
Miranda civil war? What'd I miss?
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Jan 4, 2017 16:03:34 GMT
I'll put my trust in the mods. If a thread is getting uncomfortable for me and too vicious, I'll just avoid it and go in search for a more mature discussion on some other topic. yeah this is what I tend to do as well on various forums I have an account on or use.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Jan 4, 2017 16:05:19 GMT
Miranda civil war? What'd I miss? Boy if I had a nickel for everytime I've summarized it. Oh wait, I do, and I can't buy shit with it. Basically people had different interpretations of Miranda and some people thought theirs should be the only viewpoint, or accused the other side of thinking that. A shitshow followed. More in depth explanation here.
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Post by Crim on Jan 4, 2017 17:35:39 GMT
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Post by Syv on Jan 4, 2017 17:59:09 GMT
I was there when it happened. There was no reason to lock the entire romance section. That was pure laziness and stupidity from Chris Priestly, one of the worst mods I've ever witnessed. Zero sense of honesty and zero sense of duty with this guy. The whole exagerration and hyperbole from some bsn posters pointing out this ridiculous story as a proof that the former forum was " toxic " still amaze me to be honest. Yes some shit show, but not worse than what we've seen either on this forum in other topics or in the former bsn in the dragon age franchise. It was located. The issue is more how Chris Priestly handled the whole thing than anything else.
For those whose who didn't witness the story, just imagine two hostile threads with few people a bit too passionate about a character involved, two threads that at worst you would just need to lock to stop the whole thing, end of story. Instead of that, you have a whole forum locked, where other folks surprised who have done nothing wrong were punished. It was such a small thing in comparison to the sanction to me, such a little thing that many folks even months after didn't even know the reason why the entire section was locked, what exactly happened, a big confusion. And yet, you would think that such a big deal, an horrible thing, would be known by all. I mean, an entire forum was forbidden, it's not nothing.
I personally don't think the mods or the community particularly need to worry about anything, no need to " have a big plan ", as if we should expect the worst lol. From what I've seen, the romance character threads in the dragon age forum were totally okay. We are not children... No reason it shouldn't happen with Mass effect. I'm not in favor of creating a specific policy. I don't see why.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2017 18:05:59 GMT
Heh, Miranda's Civil War... funny. I still remember the Great Unrest Over Aerie and the original Character Characterization pitched battles based on the ten soundset lines and a biography snippet from the first BG. Now, those were the titanic clashes and I will remember the wild times of the early internet for the rest of my life. It taught me that the truest statement about a human is that there is no accounting for taste.
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Post by Crim on Jan 4, 2017 19:13:43 GMT
Well, if you guys would like one mod's perspective on a few things: I firmly believe the nuking of the romance section on the old BSN was pure Priestly spite and laziness (or whatever else makes someone not do their job) and I have never been shy in saying so. I'm fairly confident none of our mods have this problem. I remember when I went to the London Comic Con of 2012, Bioware staff were in attendance, Jessica and Chris were answering some Q&As. Someone asked about romances in games, aha Priestly really doesn't like em. So I wasn't all that surprised that things went down the way they did after that.
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Post by SofaJockey on Jan 4, 2017 19:29:28 GMT
I'm with CrutchCricket , locking threads is not a good strategy if a little gentle weeding will suffice. There's always going to be a few 'Tali's Sweat / Boobs / Arse' threads, the key is whether they stay relatively benign. Mod preference is to allow most subjects to try to have a discussion so long as they don't get hateful. The last big fight I saw was back on BSN Prime over the 'DAI key glitch'... Now we have a launch date we will have to discuss how we handle SPOILERS more specifically... Ideas and thoughts about how we have a terrific Character and Romance sub-forum at and past launch would be welcome
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Post by wright1978 on Jan 4, 2017 20:32:26 GMT
The problem on the old BSn was mods basically abandoned the romance sub-forum resulting in antagonisation & off topic discussion becoming commonplace. Miranda fan split just seemed like it was used as a handy excuse to close forum because they didn't want to take the time to engage. So as long as mods stay actively engaged and intervening to ensure on topic civilish discourse i don't see there being an issue.
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Post by SofaJockey on Jan 4, 2017 21:11:19 GMT
The problem on the old BSn was mods basically abandoned the romance sub-forum resulting in antagonisation & off topic discussion becoming commonplace. Miranda fan split just seemed like it was used as a handy excuse to close forum because they didn't want to take the time to engage. So as long as mods stay actively engaged and intervening to ensure on topic civilish discourse i don't see there being an issue. I would also be useful if people hit the 'report' button if trouble's brewing. Unless it's done maliciously it's ok to report if concerned but unsure. We'll take a look without being too heavy-handed. This forum generates nearly 2,000 posts per day, that's a fair amount of ground to cover.
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Post by Raga on Jan 4, 2017 21:55:55 GMT
I think one thing that always caused some tension was that a lot of people, especially new ones, didn't wrap their minds around the fact that a given character thread basically became that character's fan club. The threads were full of people who really, really, really liked Garrus or Tali or Thane or whoever and not so much people who just wanted to talk and analyze things. This meant the threads were *extremely* unfriendly to legitimate criticisms of characters, and yet you couldn't open a second character thread for criticism because it was considered a duplicate. It also meant that all the diehard fans got their meaty discussions done long before you showed up and frequently don't want to bring them back up, often because they know it will cause drama among their most passionate members. That combination of factors turned a thread into nothing but a chat thread with some half-arsed reposted fanart put up now and then to keep it "on topic." There was no clear place to go if you just wanted to talk about "character's X's dumb choice on this mission" but didn't really want to do so in a temple of memes dedicated to their greatness. This scenario was also candy for trolls who happened to hate a particular character for whatever reason and just wanted to bait people. The Tali thread was plagued with trolls.
I think a fundamental question that never got answered on the old forum was "Is a given character thread allowed to develop into an explicit fan club or not?" The mods seemed not to want that to happen but never really took any steps to prevent it from happening. I think their logic was "well, there's groups for that." What ended up happening was that character threads just became recruiting stations for character groups, their PR department more or less.
I actually don't mind the dedicated fanclub spaces because I was a member of several of them but that does cause problems for newcomers and it invites trolls. I think if mods take a hard line on threads being overly hostile to character criticism, getting off topic and chatty, and people trolling character threads, the worst problems will be avoided.
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Post by lilyenachaos on Jan 4, 2017 22:10:58 GMT
The mods here are doing a great job so far. I don't doubt that things will get crazy when MEA is released, but I plan to avoid this section at that point anyways because I don't want to run across a spoiler. (Unless I get impatient and decide that spoilers are good, which is what usually ends up happening.)
A few of the threads here have gotten dicey but they've been taken care of when it got to the point of no return. I don't see any point in worrying about it.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Jan 4, 2017 23:01:35 GMT
I think one thing that always caused some tension was that a lot of people, especially new ones, didn't wrap their minds around the fact that a given character thread basically became that character's fan club. The threads were full of people who really, really, really liked Garrus or Tali or Thane or whoever and not so much people who just wanted to talk and analyze things. This meant the threads were *extremely* unfriendly to legitimate criticisms of characters, and yet you couldn't open a second character thread for criticism because it was considered a duplicate. It also meant that all the diehard fans got their meaty discussions done long before you showed up and frequently don't want to bring them back up, often because they know it will cause drama among their most passionate members. That combination of factors turned a thread into nothing but a chat thread with some half-arsed reposted fanart put up now and then to keep it "on topic." There was no clear place to go if you just wanted to talk about "character's X's dumb choice on this mission" but didn't really want to do so in a temple of memes dedicated to their greatness. This scenario was also candy for trolls who happened to hate a particular character for whatever reason and just wanted to bait people. The Tali thread was plagued with trolls. I think a fundamental question that never got answered on the old forum was "Is a given character thread allowed to develop into an explicit fan club or not?" The mods seemed not to want that to happen but never really took any steps to prevent it from happening. I think their logic was "well, there's groups for that." What ended up happening was that character threads just became recruiting stations for character groups, their PR department more or less. I actually don't mind the dedicated fanclub spaces because I was a member of several of them but that does cause problems for newcomers and it invites trolls. I think if mods take a hard line on threads being overly hostile to character criticism, getting off topic and chatty, and people trolling character threads, the worst problems will be avoided. Excellent points. These things were brought up back in the day as well. I think whether a thread was intended to just be a fan club or whether analysis was welcome was partially determined by the OP and the regulars of the thread. I can't speak for the other threads as I wasn't in them as much, but the Miranda thread did try to be more about discussion and analysis in addition to fan gushing. The thing is, the regulars there had some ideas already well developed and not easy to change and a few newcomers came in thinking "discussion" meant a few exchanges and people would get around to their way of thinking. I've seen this happen in both romance threads and general discussion threads, if arguments go too long and there are multiple people arguing one side, the smaller side will feel "ganged up on" and like they don't have a voice. People say they want discussion but in some cases, it means "discuss for x replies/amount of time and then either agree with me or just break off". But how many people hold one opinion or support an argument shouldn't be a factor or at least certainly not more than the logic of the argument itself. Personally I think the one thread per character rule still works best. Unlike the official BSN we have no private group support so that's not an option for anything. I think we can encourage all character threads to label themselves "Support and Discussion" threads to include and encourage the latter but the majority of users and/or thread regulars in each thread will do what the majority of users and/or thread regulars will do- we can't micromanage that. Edit: Thankfully we may have prempted this problem somewhat. SofaJockey and others in their considerable wisdom, have already created character threads for the known squad members but they are merely labeled "official threads", not support or fan threads. We can follow that up with the expectation that discussion and analysis from multiple perspectives will be housed within.
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Post by fialka on Jan 4, 2017 23:08:38 GMT
I agree the mods here do a great job, and the couple times I reported something they were quick to respond.
Yes, character threads do inevitably form into fanclubs, and trolls inevitably exist. I was part of the Solas thread on the old BSN, however, and I thought it was a pretty good mix of super-fans, lore nerds who just liked the character because he was interesting, and people who didn't like whatever about him and wanted to discuss it. And it worked out fine. Where there trolls, or people who were outright rude, or people who took their love a bit too far? Sure, but that was the minority. Even on this site, I ventured into the Anders thread and expected the usual love vs. hate, and was pleasantly surprised at the intelligent, civil discussions on both sides about the character.
Of course it's different right after a game comes out. People do get kinda crazy, and it can get heated. Especially when you get new people who just come in here to troll, and other new people who don't know any better than to ignore them. I think in the worst case scenario, if a character thread has gotten super hostile and out of control, the mods could just temporarily lock it for a couple days so people can cool down. That way you're not punishing everyone forum-wide, but you let people know that if they want to continue discussing a character, they need to behave.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2017 23:10:54 GMT
I think one thing that always caused some tension was that a lot of people, especially new ones, didn't wrap their minds around the fact that a given character thread basically became that character's fan club. The threads were full of people who really, really, really liked Garrus or Tali or Thane or whoever and not so much people who just wanted to talk and analyze things. This meant the threads were *extremely* unfriendly to legitimate criticisms of characters, and yet you couldn't open a second character thread for criticism because it was considered a duplicate. It also meant that all the diehard fans got their meaty discussions done long before you showed up and frequently don't want to bring them back up, often because they know it will cause drama among their most passionate members. That combination of factors turned a thread into nothing but a chat thread with some half-arsed reposted fanart put up now and then to keep it "on topic." There was no clear place to go if you just wanted to talk about "character's X's dumb choice on this mission" but didn't really want to do so in a temple of memes dedicated to their greatness. This scenario was also candy for trolls who happened to hate a particular character for whatever reason and just wanted to bait people. The Tali thread was plagued with trolls. I think a fundamental question that never got answered on the old forum was "Is a given character thread allowed to develop into an explicit fan club or not?" The mods seemed not to want that to happen but never really took any steps to prevent it from happening. I think their logic was "well, there's groups for that." What ended up happening was that character threads just became recruiting stations for character groups, their PR department more or less. I actually don't mind the dedicated fanclub spaces because I was a member of several of them but that does cause problems for newcomers and it invites trolls. I think if mods take a hard line on threads being overly hostile to character criticism, getting off topic and chatty, and people trolling character threads, the worst problems will be avoided. This was an issue in the DAI section as well. Not gonna mention names or anything but when I was a BSN "newb" I started posting in a character thread and got told off for making dirty jokes about said character. One was a private message from a wannabe thread dictator and the other one was well.. Quite frankly just a bitch.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Jan 4, 2017 23:18:19 GMT
Indeed. And speaking of the games coming out, another aspect that apparently shaped some character threads in the past was the hope/idea that the devs would take note of things people liked about the characters and emphasize them or do more with them in the coming games. This included keeping threads in the top of the page and padding page counts with art/ random chat. Boy, look at that thread, it has 1000 pages! That must mean people like that character! These things should obviously be mitigated by a) the clean slate Andromeda provides and we are not the official forums. There are some BioWare devs registered here and more probably lurking every now and then. But there is zero reasonable expectation that they'll actually read, much less act on anything here because we're just a fan page. Hell, that's a possible reason why they closed the BSN to begin with. Hopefully people realize that and take a more chill attitude towards posting since the aforementioned "posting with an agenda" shouldn't be a thing.
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Post by SofaJockey on Jan 4, 2017 23:22:54 GMT
If someone wants to criticize a character and does so politely, then they'll get mod backing to do that. If someone goes on to be disruptive and behave like an ass, then they'll get mod 'help' to stop
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Post by Raga on Jan 5, 2017 0:13:18 GMT
Also, wanted to follow-up by saying that the mods here have been doing an excellent job. One of the best improvements from the old BSN is that I actually *see* mods interacting with people and not just showing up way after the whole world has already caught fire.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2017 0:34:19 GMT
The mods here are doing a great job as everyone has said, one thing I would appreciate is that I have noticed that some of my posts have been shadow edited. Which is fine if I broke a rule I would just ask that they would send me a message and say "Hey douche bag you cant say that here" So I know what I did do wrong.
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