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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Jan 7, 2017 2:27:11 GMT
We still can't say for sure what the overall structure of the game will be other than that we know there's critical path, we know there are side-quests and both are marked on the right of the screen with objective checklists and we know the Nexus has a level-up system simultaneous to the player's own level as well as credit funds.
Being the skeptic as I ever am I have this feeling that despite what BioWare says this is still just DA:I overall in the approach despite how much they say ME1 is a big inspiration -- you can definitely see the ME1-ness in several parts. It seems to have an XP stat showing up every time you make a kill, there's inventory again, it's Mass Effect and not Dragon Age etc. but I'm really worried about the objectives shown in the sneak peeks and how they seem like DA:I-stuff not to mention all we've heard from Gameinformer and more.
I'm replaying ME1 at the moment and boy... it never disappoints. It's my 8th playthrough and I am counting two side-missions (that is full conversations with dialogue trees with multiple outcomes) that I have never seen before and all the usual ones on top of these and man, it's just so impressive how much cinedesign is put into completely player-driven, optional content that has nothing to do with the critical path. It's basically a precursor to DA:I's open-ended design but this didn't force you to ever even bother and the crit-path isn't gated behind it. There's a number of side-missions in DA:I that come to mind where it's actually very much like ME1 side missions, just without cinematic dialogue or multiple outcomes (but those are in the game too).
The biggest takeway I have from ME1's side-content is that it's just brimming with memorable stories, even if they're not fully fledged 3-act plots, but it just feels like everywhere you go you may end up bumping into a conversation that feels every bit as highlighted and fully-fledged as something you'd encounter in the main plot, and that is where I feel BioWare at a certain point got worse (with ME3 and onwards mostly). There's this clear gap nowadays between the really, highly polished, main crit-path content and the companion scenes or the side-fluff or the grindy open-world part of the games. I really miss how much ME1 and ME2 and DA2 etc. respected the need to have objectives that depended on the player's own initiative to do them, which had the same amount of importance (for lack of better word) as main-path content.
I never understood the turning away from cinematic conversations for "less important stuff" or the way characters only had comment-style dialogue to comment on the latest mission in ME3 or DA:I's lack of cinematic cameras for a good chunk of the overall dialogue. If it's a budget constraint I smell poorly allocated resources (namely 8 romance options per game) and why couldn't they just keep what they did with ME2 but then just improve that as their budget increased ever so slightly?
With ME:A I get the feeling that most of the side-quests will be busywork and "kill this and that" as suggested by the objectives shown in the footage, which all relate to clearing the area of X enemy faction or something to that effect. Combat will be fun enough that we'll want to do this, but I'm still super skeptical as to whether ME:A will have some legit, proper, worthwhile side-questing (note, fully-fledged missions in exclusive maps launched from galaxy map aren't side-quests IMO)
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Post by zarrokhai on Jan 7, 2017 3:00:39 GMT
Well, Bioware did say they took inspiration from Witcher 3's sidequests this time around instead of DA:I. And we haven't really seen anything much about sidecontent other than the loyalty missions. My guess is that it's going to be a mix of both fully-fledged sidequests and fetchquests. We do have a crafting system which means we will be scanning for resources throughout the game. It will be inevitable that some quests make use of that scanning system.
My only hope is that they minimize the fetchquests as much as possible. That was my number one issue with DA:I. The overwhelming amount of fetchquests was what turned me away from making more playthroughs on that game (Which is crazy, as I usually makes dozens of playthroughs on Bioware games).
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Post by derrame on Jan 7, 2017 3:10:24 GMT
well, if they really took inspiraton in witcher 3 side quests, then they will be interesting, fun, exciting, and wth a good context and not repetitive and most of them will have diferent outcomes
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Post by crossngen on Jan 7, 2017 3:15:10 GMT
With ME:A I get the feeling that most of the side-quests will be busywork and "kill this and that" as suggested by the objectives shown in the footage, which all relate to clearing the area of X enemy faction or something to that effect. Combat will be fun enough that we'll want to do this, but I'm still super skeptical as to whether ME:A will have some legit, proper, worthwhile side-questing (note, fully-fledged missions in exclusive maps launched from galaxy map aren't side-quests IMO) The reason you're thinking this way is because MEA has the journal on the screen updating your quest progression as you go, unlike the first trilogy. In Thane's recruitment mission when you get to the elevator you're not told you need to clear out the henchmen in the room, but you assume so because A. it's a linear level without any other options to advance, and B. because the closed elevator infront of you is blocked by a number of mercs. In an open world where you have so many directions to go to, especially if you have a mission inside said open worlds you need these simple guidelines of "Find X" "Collect Y for X" and "Kill a number of Zs in order to advance towards X". Even the lauded Witcher 3 did this.
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Post by Xerxes52 on Jan 7, 2017 5:21:07 GMT
well, if they really took inspiraton in witcher 3 side quests, then they will be interesting, fun, exciting, and wth a good context and not repetitive and most of them will have diferent outcomes Indeed. I've been clearing out my backlog of contracts and so far they've all been enjoyable. Also being able to haggle for better pay is something I really like.
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Post by colfoley on Jan 7, 2017 5:32:05 GMT
I'm confident. I am confident because of the way they are handling the marketing. Back when we got the Crestwood demo in DA I it was clear that it was just an example of what a quest might mean. It was a conglomaration of your typical DA I quest all told and was not supposed to be indicitive of either side quests or main quests. Fast forward to the Game Awards video and the quest we saw was a lot more likely a side quest. A nice little murder mystery side quest to boot which seemed to involve an actual story, IE meeting with Kelly and then going out in the outback to investigate. This quest by itself already looks about better then 80% of the side quests we got in DA I.
Besides BioWare has done good side quests before, they just need to remember how to do them.
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Post by shodiswe on Jan 7, 2017 6:02:06 GMT
There will also be a lot of resource grinding.
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Post by Trilobite Derby on Jan 7, 2017 6:05:18 GMT
It's not Mass Effect unless the sidequests are stupid in some way.
ME1: Oh, race against time? Let's poke around random planets forever. ME2: No dialogue from your friends, minimal dialogue from Shepard, and that whole messy race against time thing again. ME3: Sidequest by eavesdropping!
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 7, 2017 6:08:10 GMT
It's not Mass Effect unless the sidequests are stupid in some way. ME1: Oh, race against time? Let's poke around random planets forever. ME2: No dialogue from your friends, minimal dialogue from Shepard, and that whole messy race against time thing again, ME3: Sidequest by eavesdropping!
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Post by Trilobite Derby on Jan 7, 2017 6:10:43 GMT
Toooo be fair to Mass Effect 3, there were a lot of sidequests (Mass Effect 2 companions, Citadel ones, the ones Hackett gives you) that were pretty much everything you WANT in a sidequest...
But it doesn't exactly reduce the awkwardness factor of "Hey, I managed to find the thing you were talking about kthxbai."
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Post by Cypher on Jan 7, 2017 6:22:53 GMT
Plenty of Inquisition took inspiration from ME1 anyway--largely because ME1 took inspiration from more traditional RPGs of the time to begin with--so even if it does lean more toward Inquisition than ME1, the base of the two are still the same.
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Post by Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger on Jan 7, 2017 6:23:06 GMT
It's not Mass Effect unless the sidequests are stupid in some way. ME1: Oh, race against time? Let's poke around random planets forever. ME2: No dialogue from your friends, minimal dialogue from Shepard, and that whole messy race against time thing again, ME3: Sidequest by eavesdropping! Great. Now I officially can't sleep. If ME:A is like this ... no. Especially with that grin. Otherwise maybe.
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Post by Xerxes52 on Jan 7, 2017 6:46:18 GMT
It's not Mass Effect unless the sidequests are stupid in some way. ME1: Oh, race against time? Let's poke around random planets forever. ME2: No dialogue from your friends, minimal dialogue from Shepard, and that whole messy race against time thing again, ME3: Sidequest by eavesdropping! That comic never fails to get a chuckle out of me. Maybe ME:A should have one eavesdropping quest, that promptly ends with the PC getting slapped with a protective order on completion.
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Post by Lebanese Dude on Jan 7, 2017 7:58:27 GMT
Perhaps BioWare should drop companions and instead devote its stories and writing to side quests. Perhaps then people will be satisfied.
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Post by colfoley on Jan 7, 2017 8:15:20 GMT
Perhaps BioWare should drop companions and instead devote its stories and writing to side quests. Perhaps then people will be satisfied. That certainly 'worked' for the Witcher (made the adventure seem awfully lonely though.)
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Post by kumazan on Jan 7, 2017 9:32:20 GMT
Perhaps BioWare should drop companions and instead devote its stories and writing to side quests. Perhaps then people will be satisfied. That certainly 'worked' for the Witcher (made the adventure seem awfully lonely though.) Well Geralt spends like half of the last three books bitching that he should do that alone, so wish granted. I would have loved a few semi permanent companions à la Milva, Regis, Cahir and Angoulême, but in the end is good that CDPR went that way, I already have BioWare for companions, and I like variety in my games. Edit: That should read half of all the books, but I feel generous today. Back on topic, I'm confident they got the feedback from Inquisition. They have repeated several times they don't want filler quests, and that they got inspiration from Witcher 3, where sidequests were the best from the game. Now how exactly they implemented these ideas is anyone's guess at this point.
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Post by SofNascimento on Jan 7, 2017 9:36:39 GMT
If we judge by ME1 (minus the repetitive environments and terrible gameplay) and ME2 it will be handled quite well.
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Post by javeart on Jan 7, 2017 9:48:41 GMT
The thing about side missions for me it's that is preferable quality over quantity. Personally, I don't need nowhere near 60-80 hours of side-quests and I would rather have half of those (maybe even a third) and have some more resources devoted to each of them. I don't know if this could left the big maps a little empty, but I don't really need that many big maps either...
In any case, I'm optimistic about MEA
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Post by Lebanese Dude on Jan 7, 2017 11:11:38 GMT
The thing about side missions for me it's that is preferable quality over quantity. Personally, I don't need nowhere near 60-80 hours of side-quests.. See this is what bugs me. I know you aren't being malicious about it but this is a very common complaint that is based on a few facts and a lot of hyperbole For one, every map had its own set of zone story quests independent of the main quests. While pursuing the main quests, you can do the zone story quests. They were often interesting and full of story elements. Then you have the side quests which contain very little story elements. You can complete the main quests, the zone story quests, and the main companion quests without ever exploring the map fully or doing a single side quest. In fact the entire point of the side quests is to promote exploration. Neither are required nor necessary. They are there for the player to pursue at their own discretion. The side quests themselves take almost no time whatsoever if pursued in tandem with the story quests. They definitely do not take 60-80 hours. Perhaps you're referring to actual exploration, which was an aspect of the game that the devs were very clear with. If you're not a fan of it, then that's fine. It being a BioWare game does not imply that they will always use the same templates no matter what. Now people aren't completely wrong. Like any open world game, doing ALL the exploration and side quests ( completionist runs) is a lot of effort, especially on consequent playthroughs where you already experienced it all once before. After my first playthrough, I didn't bother with all that and started tailoring my exploration to my character. Doing a completionist run at this point is just ridiculous. While playing my hardcore templar warrior, I mainly chased rifts and completed chantry-related side quests. I scoffed at helping any elf and definitely did not help mages. I certainly did not tread on heathen elven grounds were possible. My douche-rogue never killed a single dragon because why risk my life for something so trivial. I only did side quests that had clear-cut rewards, never doing anything out of the "goodness" of her heart. (On a similar note, I never crafted, opting to sell all my mats for gold) So the side quests, while trivial, had an RP opportunity in helping to shape my character, even when they didn't involve speech. ---- Of course this still bothered a lot of people, and I respect that. I expect the devs do too, and this time they'll try to incorporate more zone story quests and less side quests. However expecting all side quests to go away when the game is STILL advertised as a game heavy on exploration is just going to disappoint you. I do think that people need to stop expecting the game to offer them all the roleplaying opportunities with zero effort on the player's part. You can tailor any mechanic to fit your roleplaying needs. You'll have more fun that way.
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Post by fialka on Jan 7, 2017 14:29:19 GMT
The thing about side missions for me it's that is preferable quality over quantity. Personally, I don't need nowhere near 60-80 hours of side-quests.. *snip for length See, I agree that the main 'zone quests' as you call them were really well done and interesting. And there were some great little 'stories within stories' if you looked around those areas as you moved through the quest in letters and journals and such. I don't think Inquisition gets enough credit for those. Even some of those side quests you got in the war table were pretty cool. It's unfortunate that the complete lack of cutscenes and face-to-face conversations took so much away from them though. I think that was a huge mistake on the developer's part, which I hope MEA learns from. Otherwise, the quality of the storytelling wasn't bad at all. But if they do take inspiration from The Witcher 3, which supposedly has very good sidequests, then, cool. I have no issues with them learning from games that do certain things well. And I did think Inquisition did a lot well. The fetch quests weren't one of them, because they felt more like an overwhelming chore list than a fun set of optionals: Shard collection, else I miss out on exploring one of the most beautiful cavern in the game and some character buffs and a neat bit of lore. Astrariums, which offered the best equipment, a neat puzzle, and more lore. Mosaic pieces, which, again, if you're lore nerd are hard to ignore, and it gets you more dialogue from sorta interesting dwarf guy. Elven artifacts for Solas, circle books for Vivienne, warden stuff for Blackwall, so on and so forth if I want a bit of extra companion dialogue or an extra quest.... Bottles - which, okay, I can ignore those, but I don't necessarily know that's what I'm searching for. Fetch quests for starving villagers and stuff - okay I can ignore those I suppose. Bring note A to tree B - I suppose I can force myself to not care about that. Requisitions - I did learn not to bother with those unless I happened to have the stuff. I want to specialize! - Wait, another fetch quest....? I want to customize Skyhold! - Resource gathering, you don't say.... I want to craft/upgrade my potions! - Right, resource gathering it is.... It was just waaaayyyyyy too much! I know all of those are optional, and are supposed to encourage you to explore, and I do like to explore. The problem with the exploration in DAI is that the areas were so large, and so densely packed with repetitive enemy encounters, I didn't feel like exploring was very fun. I'm that lore nerd who loves to read every codec and explore every stupid cave and talk to every person and find every note.... but on the way I had to fight 15 identical groups of Venatori, and another 10 identical pack of wolves, and if I picked up that journal page, I'd have to backtrack and find the other five, which meant a whole lot of walking around in circles in search mode. And then I'd turn in that ram meat or that letter to a grieving lover and I'd get rewarded with a distant conversation with a character whose face I barely saw, or an excess of power points I had nothing to spend on. So they didn't even feel rewarding to me as a player. Even the war table missions - there were some very cool ones, but outside of reading stuff, it didn't seem to matter 90% of the time what you chose to do. There was no dialogue outside the war room with anyone, I didn't get to meet the majority of the characters I was reading about, and so on. Now, I actually loved Inquisition. While I didn't find the main plot particularly strong or the main villain particularly compelling, I did enjoy the main quests a lot. As you said, the main side quest for each area was typically well done too. The companions and side characters and party banter were the best we've ever seen. The romances were varied and felt a lot more natural than before. The amount of lore we got was fantastic, the crafting I actually found fun for the first time, and the environments were beautiful. Unfortunately the side quests, for all their potential, fell flat in some way or another, or just lacked that something that made me feel like, yes, I feel accomplished. I feel satisfied with what I just did. I feel rewarded. That was worth it.Anyway, there's my criticism of Inquisition, in a very large nutshell. And why I think it's fine if they take inspiration from it as long as they improve on it instead of going 'that was good enough.' Because in the end it unfortunately wasn't. I think that's where that quality over quantity thing comes in. I would have preferred they removed a handful of those things I mentioned if it meant they could've allocated the resources to elevating others.
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Post by javeart on Jan 7, 2017 14:58:11 GMT
I didn't meant to say that those 60-80 hours of side quests were mandatory at all, I don't know how am I supposed to have implied that. You're forced to do a certain amount of them, though, because you don't get power enough to go on only with main missions, and that part really annoyed me, but the amount of time you'd need to unlock them is much, much more less (maybe something like 5-10 hours? and though I complain about that a lot, I didn't here I meant only that I'd rather have less of them and have better ones. I also don't really understand why would you differentiate between zone story-quests and side-quest. Personally, I never though of them like that, when I say side-quests I mean only non main, non-companion-quests, and some have more narrative content than others, of course. Now, I'm not saying there should be none of those with less narrative content (though I'd like it there were less in proportion) what I'm saying, again, is that I think that if there were less of them (both types) maybe all of them could be better (and just in case, that doesn't mean either, that I thought all of DAI's were bad and uninteresting, and that I didn't like any of them) As for saying 60-80 hours of side-quest, you're right in that I'm including in that estimate a lot of exploration, because unlocking them and completing them requires that exploration in a lot of cases. It's not as simple as side-quest=explorations, because it's true that some of them you can do while you're completing main missions (that said, there quite a few maps in DAI that played no part in any main mission at all), and some exploration is required to complete some of the mains mission, whether you're interested or not about possible side-quest (like going through the base camp in Crestwood to the cave where Stroud/Alistaitr hides). But my math was much simpler, and I don't think that's super far off: I said 60-80 hours, considering that a more/less completionist pt rarely means less than 100 hours (most people says about +150 hours, but that includes a lot of crafting, wandering, etc, I imagine) and that main missions and companion quests rarely will take you more than, what, 20 hours? I don't know, how much would you say side-missions amount to in DAI in terms of hours? How off would you say I am? And, of course, this is just my personal preferences and opinions, I always try to make clear that I'm only talking about I see things and what I like and what I don't. And I'm not expecting nothing radically different for MEA, just a reasonable improvement over DAI (improvement, from my point of view, again, in case it nees to be said), that's what I meant when I said I'm optimistic. edit: whatever the amount of hours of side-quest you say there's in DAI, I'm going to say that I'd be fine with half of it, though, that part is invariable
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Post by cribbian on Jan 7, 2017 16:04:06 GMT
It's not Mass Effect unless the sidequests are stupid in some way. ME3: Sidequest by eavesdropping! They also counted as exploration, at least according to Chris Priestley
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Post by The Arbiter on Jan 7, 2017 16:45:25 GMT
Well, Bioware did say they took inspiration from Witcher 3's sidequests this time around instead of DA:I. And we haven't really seen anything much about sidecontent other than the loyalty missions. My guess is that it's going to be a mix of both fully-fledged sidequests and fetchquests. We do have a crafting system which means we will be scanning for resources throughout the game. It will be inevitable that some quests make use of that scanning system. My only hope is that they minimize the fetchquests as much as possible. That was my number one issue with DA:I. The overwhelming amount of fetchquests was what turned me away from making more playthroughs on that game (Which is crazy, as I usually makes dozens of playthroughs on Bioware games). I seriously hope they do not copy Witcher's own side quests. I do hope they do something else original... something unique. I have no idea what but something different.
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Post by The Arbiter on Jan 7, 2017 16:47:30 GMT
Perhaps BioWare should drop companions and instead devote its stories and writing to side quests. Perhaps then people will be satisfied. That certainly 'worked' for the Witcher (made the adventure seem awfully lonely though.) Witchers majority of the time do work alone
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December 2016
derrame
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
DerrameNeutral
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Post by derrame on Jan 7, 2017 16:55:32 GMT
the witcher trilogy has the bests side quests ever, hopefully Bioware learns from it
(ME2 too)
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