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Post by Element Zero on Feb 22, 2017 17:15:57 GMT
The issue I had with the writing of Krem's story was that they seemed to twist the Qun as we'd known it into pretzels, in order to allow for Krem's and Bull's partnership. I'm not sure why the Qun, the monolithic institution of intolerance (in the name of order), needed to be okay with their friendship. It felt weird, contradictory and more than a bit like a retcon, even if it technically wasn't one.
The second awkward moment comes if you decide to be an ass and ask inappropriate, insensitive questions. I only did this once, because I wanted to see what dialogue was written in reply. (This is an RPG, after all.) Bull gives the Inquisitor a dressing down, and the Inquisitor is not able to reply, weigh in with any opinion, or anything of the sort. I can see how some would feel like this was BioWare delivering them a much needed lesson, since they were insensitive enough to select the aforementioned dialogue option. I definitely felt scolded; but I also felt like my PC deserved it, so... While I think this could've been written better, I don't have too much of a personal issue with it, since I never experience it in-game. (I'm not an ass, and can't bring myself to RP such a dolt, either.)
Krem's a cool dude. I like his character and rarely think of his "difference", except when it's mentioned in-game. This doesn't mean that the writing couldn't have been more nuanced. They'll hopefully get better with practice.
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Post by alanc9 on Feb 22, 2017 17:17:19 GMT
Hear hear, i was just annoyed by the absurdity of having to deal with dorian's personal issue whilst there are you know...demons falling from the sky. Having to? What are you talking about?
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Post by Iakus on Feb 22, 2017 17:22:30 GMT
The issue I had with the writing of Krem's story was that they seemed to twist the Qun as we'd known it into pretzels, in order to allow for Krem's and Bull's partnership. I'm not sure why the Qun, the monolithic institution of intolerance (in the name of order), needed to be okay with their friendship. It felt weird, contradictory and more than a bit like a retcon, even if it technically wasn't one. That much is true. But I headcanon it as Bull lying to himself that his Chargers would be accepted under the Qun. They are a bunch of societal outcasts, mages, and criminals who don't fit anywhere else. No way in Hell would they fit any better under the Qun
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Post by The Elder King on Feb 22, 2017 17:32:19 GMT
The issue I had with the writing of Krem's story was that they seemed to twist the Qun as we'd known it into pretzels, in order to allow for Krem's and Bull's partnership. I'm not sure why the Qun, the monolithic institution of intolerance (in the name of order), needed to be okay with their friendship. It felt weird, contradictory and more than a bit like a retcon, even if it technically wasn't one. That much is true. But I headcanon it as Bull lying to himself that his Chargers would be accepted under the Qun. They are a bunch of societal outcasts, mages, and criminals who don't fit anywhere else. No way in Hell would they fit any better under the Qun That much is obvious, but I think the point he made is that a person like Krem would be accepted.
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Post by alanc9 on Feb 22, 2017 17:40:27 GMT
The issue I had with the writing of Krem's story was that they seemed to twist the Qun as we'd known it into pretzels, in order to allow for Krem's and Bull's partnership. I'm not sure why the Qun, the monolithic institution of intolerance (in the name of order), needed to be okay with their friendship. It felt weird, contradictory and more than a bit like a retcon, even if it technically wasn't one. Turns out we didn't really know the Qun, then. This is wholly consistent with the way the series is handling lore. We didn't know anything about elven history either.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2017 17:55:08 GMT
The issue I had with the writing of Krem's story was that they seemed to twist the Qun as we'd known it into pretzels, in order to allow for Krem's and Bull's partnership. I'm not sure why the Qun, the monolithic institution of intolerance (in the name of order), needed to be okay with their friendship. It felt weird, contradictory and more than a bit like a retcon, even if it technically wasn't one. The second awkward moment comes if you decide to be an ass and ask inappropriate, insensitive questions. I only did this once, because I wanted to see what dialogue was written in reply. (This is an RPG, after all.) Bull gives the Inquisitor a dressing down, and the Inquisitor is not able to reply, weigh in with any opinion, or anything of the sort. I can see how some would feel like this was BioWare delivering them a much needed lesson, since they were insensitive enough to select the aforementioned dialogue option. I definitely felt scolded; but I also felt like my PC deserved it, so... While I think this could've been written better, I don't have too much of a personal issue with it, since I never experience it in-game. (I'm not an ass, and can't bring myself to RP such a dolt, either.) Krem's a cool dude. I like his character and rarely think of his "difference", except when it's mentioned in-game. This doesn't mean that the writing couldn't have been more nuanced. They'll hopefully get better with practice. Thanks, you said it way better than i ever could. I am just a bit worried as in the next Dragon Age game we might get our first transsexual companion and possible love Interest, Maevaris. I want them to handle it better than they did Krem, make it feel natural and not dropped in the dialogue tree out of the blue. We'll see when the time comes. Over to being skeptic about ME:A.
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Post by simsimillia on Feb 22, 2017 18:04:52 GMT
Krem wasn't exactly a high point in writing and as mentioned before not very elegant. Krem simply didn't have all that much else going on that defined him as a a character, mostly because he was very minor. The companions are not just defined by their Gender or Sexual orientation. Though I really doubt that it'll be a while before a major Transgender/Transsexual Character shows up in Triple A title.
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Post by Element Zero on Feb 22, 2017 18:24:04 GMT
The issue I had with the writing of Krem's story was that they seemed to twist the Qun as we'd known it into pretzels, in order to allow for Krem's and Bull's partnership. I'm not sure why the Qun, the monolithic institution of intolerance (in the name of order), needed to be okay with their friendship. It felt weird, contradictory and more than a bit like a retcon, even if it technically wasn't one. Turns out we didn't really know the Qun, then. This is wholly consistent with the way the series is handling lore. We didn't know anything about elven history either. True enough. It just made Sten's whole "women can't be warriors" thing seem strange. Maybe we didn't know the Qun, but I assumed a Sten would know it pretty well. The new lore opens up a whole can of goofy worms. It's their world, and they do an amazing job with it, but I feel their desire to address real world injustice may have clouded their judgment in this case. It's an opinion, not a fact, and not something I care to debate at length, since I'm in pain, and that debate has played out as many times as the Reapers' Cycles.
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Post by The Elder King on Feb 22, 2017 18:28:12 GMT
Turns out we didn't really know the Qun, then. This is wholly consistent with the way the series is handling lore. We didn't know anything about elven history either. True enough. It just made Sten's whole "women can't be warriors" thing seem strange. Maybe we didn't know the Qun, but I assumed a Sten would know it pretty well. The new lore opens up a whole can of goofy worms. It's their world, and they do an amazing job with it, but I feel they're desire to address real world injustice may have clouded their judgment in this case. It's an opinion, not a fact, and not something I care to debate at length, since I'm in pain, and that debate has played out as many times as the Reapers' Cycles. I think it might work in a way. Sten in his talk with FemWarden had one reply where he said the Warden is a man then, so maybe transgender men are allowed in such sense in the Qun. It does gets a bit messy though, expecially because it clashes a bit with the rigidity of the Qun.
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Post by Element Zero on Feb 22, 2017 18:36:22 GMT
True enough. It just made Sten's whole "women can't be warriors" thing seem strange. Maybe we didn't know the Qun, but I assumed a Sten would know it pretty well. The new lore opens up a whole can of goofy worms. It's their world, and they do an amazing job with it, but I feel they're desire to address real world injustice may have clouded their judgment in this case. It's an opinion, not a fact, and not something I care to debate at length, since I'm in pain, and that debate has played out as many times as the Reapers' Cycles. I think it might work in a way. Sten in his talk with FemWarden had one reply where he said the Warden is a man then, so maybe transgender men are allowed in such sense in the Qun. It does gets a bit messy though, expecially because it clashes a bit with the rigidity of the Qun. That's not the messy part. What about the reverse? Do transgender women suddenly become men, again, while they are soldiers? It's just not sensible at all. The rest of the Qun makes sense to me. I wouldn't want to live under it, but I understand their logic and motivations. (I even think I have surmised its origins, but that's a different thread.) This transgender bit, though, is silly. It was tacked on for Krem, and needlessly so. Who cares if the Qun accepts Krem? He's a Vint, anyway. Bull could've expressed his personal thoughts on the matter, and that could've been the end of it. We don't need the Qun to validate it. As it is now, we have this weird side bit of the Qun that seems out of sorts. It will almost have to be revisited, if only to demonstrate how "un-stupid" it actually is.
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Post by anacronian on Feb 22, 2017 18:43:42 GMT
Imagine that for just once an NPC come to you and say: "Hey"
You: "hey..sooo what's wrong Is your father an asshole?"
NPC: "Nope"
You: "hmm did you have a traumatic childhood?"
NPC: "Nope"
You: "Hmm I give up.."
NPC: "Well I know where there is some tech that can really help us in our m..."
You: "Wait wait wait.. you mean to tell me You are proposing a mission centered around the premises of going somewhere to get something beneficial to our mission?"
NPC: "Well yeah ..Yes."
You: "I do not know how to react to that...I feel dizzy"
NPC: "Hey deep breaths sir..breathe breathe"
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2017 19:34:22 GMT
I would say that Krem was unimportant enough to the overall experience to where I didn't have any issues with how he was handled. He's a side character with very little dialogue. I haven't played Inquisition since 2014 and I literally don't remember a single conversation I had with him. I don't remember how the topic came up, and I don't remember how the replies went.
I do remember that I didn't have to opt into that conversation, though. So it being "forced down our throats" is actually a load of IronBullshit.
As for the topic of doing quests centered around companion's personal issues, that's, as far as I know, in every single Bioware game, and most RPGs as a whole. It doesn't really matter if the world is ending, people have their own shit to do too. Complaining about those kinds of missions is actually really stupid.
Hell, the world could be ending right this second, and we'd still be on the internet arguing about fucking video games until the day we all die. Humans are petty. People care about their lives and the people in them. That would never stop being the case, regardless of whether or not the world was ending. Especially when there's times of peace to actually think about your own problems, such as what Haven, Skyhold, the Normandy, and the party camp offers.
If you hate Dorian's mission because it's "not about demons" or the end of the world or what the hell ever, I'm sorry to say that you probably have some other issues you're not addressing.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2017 19:46:31 GMT
Turns out we didn't really know the Qun, then. This is wholly consistent with the way the series is handling lore. We didn't know anything about elven history either. True enough. It just made Sten's whole "women can't be warriors" thing seem strange. Maybe we didn't know the Qun, but I assumed a Sten would know it pretty well. The new lore opens up a whole can of goofy worms. It's their world, and they do an amazing job with it, but I feel their desire to address real world injustice may have clouded their judgment in this case. It's an opinion, not a fact, and not something I care to debate at length, since I'm in pain, and that debate has played out as many times as the Reapers' Cycles. I actually wish I could remember more specifics so I could engage a little more in this discussion, but I don't think Sten is wrong about the Qun. Maybe Iron Bull means that Krem would be accepted as long as he identified as a man. Maybe that's naivety on Bull's part, or maybe Qunari law just has workarounds like that. Maybe Sten is just traditional, and it's not a law at all, just a cultural expectation. Maybe they would have to hide the fact that Krem is really a woman, and no one would care enough to check. Maybe Iron Bull is just projecting his own beliefs on his people, assuming that his Chargers will be accepted when there would really be more resistance. There's a million ways it could work, and most of them center around Bull's character, which, admittedly, isn't anything like any other Qunari we've seen in Dragon Age. Maybe Bull is just different. He knows the Qun well and all that, but he's been overseas for a long time. Maybe he's just changed. I really don't think Krem being accepted into the Qun would be as lorebreaking as you're making it sound.
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Post by alanc9 on Feb 22, 2017 19:56:34 GMT
Turns out we didn't really know the Qun, then. This is wholly consistent with the way the series is handling lore. We didn't know anything about elven history either. True enough. It just made Sten's whole "women can't be warriors" thing seem strange. Maybe we didn't know the Qun, but I assumed a Sten would know it pretty well. The new lore opens up a whole can of goofy worms. It's their world, and they do an amazing job with it, but I feel their desire to address real world injustice may have clouded their judgment in this case. It's an opinion, not a fact, and not something I care to debate at length, since I'm in pain, and that debate has played out as many times as the Reapers' Cycles. But nothing Sten actually said is contradicted. Krem isn't a woman.
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Post by Element Zero on Feb 22, 2017 20:07:35 GMT
True enough. It just made Sten's whole "women can't be warriors" thing seem strange. Maybe we didn't know the Qun, but I assumed a Sten would know it pretty well. The new lore opens up a whole can of goofy worms. It's their world, and they do an amazing job with it, but I feel their desire to address real world injustice may have clouded their judgment in this case. It's an opinion, not a fact, and not something I care to debate at length, since I'm in pain, and that debate has played out as many times as the Reapers' Cycles. But nothing Sten actually said is contradicted. Krem isn't a woman. Like I mentioned in another post, it's when you get into other situations that it starts to fall apart. Do transgender qunari women become men once more while soldiering? Are they simply barred from the craft? What if they make the decision after becoming soldiers? Are they sent to the Ben-Hassrath, allowed to keep fighting as part-time men, or kicked out and sent to do "women's work"? It just gets weird. It's nothing that can't be handled by a skilled writer. I didn't get the "skilled writer" vibe from this element of DAI, though. They'll need someone better at world- and culture-building to clean up this tangle. @snowwhite , I agree. Nothing they added is any irrecoverable mess. It's just messy, and I don't think it felt very well thought out, as presented. I expect we'll get a pretty good look at the qunari in the next chapter. It should be fun.
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Post by amleth on Feb 22, 2017 20:07:36 GMT
Hear hear, i was just annoyed by the absurdity of having to deal with dorian's personal issue whilst there are you know...demons falling from the sky. Having to? What are you talking about? Exp is exp
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Post by amleth on Feb 22, 2017 20:08:24 GMT
Hear hear, i was just annoyed by the absurdity of having to deal with dorian's personal issue whilst there are you know...demons falling from the sky. You must have hated most of the loyalty missions in ME2 then. Yes, they were godawful.
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Post by Iakus on Feb 22, 2017 20:11:02 GMT
True enough. It just made Sten's whole "women can't be warriors" thing seem strange. Maybe we didn't know the Qun, but I assumed a Sten would know it pretty well. The new lore opens up a whole can of goofy worms. It's their world, and they do an amazing job with it, but I feel they're desire to address real world injustice may have clouded their judgment in this case. It's an opinion, not a fact, and not something I care to debate at length, since I'm in pain, and that debate has played out as many times as the Reapers' Cycles. I think it might work in a way. Sten in his talk with FemWarden had one reply where he said the Warden is a man then, so maybe transgender men are allowed in such sense in the Qun. It does gets a bit messy though, expecially because it clashes a bit with the rigidity of the Qun. He has similar banters with Morrigan, Leliana, and Wynne as well
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Post by Iakus on Feb 22, 2017 20:12:14 GMT
That much is true. But I headcanon it as Bull lying to himself that his Chargers would be accepted under the Qun. They are a bunch of societal outcasts, mages, and criminals who don't fit anywhere else. No way in Hell would they fit any better under the Qun That much is obvious, but I think the point he made is that a person like Krem would be accepted. That's what he tells himself. The truth is a different matter.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2017 20:23:24 GMT
@element Zero , That's fair, tbh. I hope they do end up addressing it. Not just because I would like more explanation and detail on the matter, but also because BioWare is pretty good at respectfully handling these issues. Not perfect, mind you, but it does create a small sense of pride when a game you like allows everyone to feel included without becoming a shallow political message. I like inclusion. I just hate the compromises some developers make to have it.
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Post by alanc9 on Feb 22, 2017 22:33:57 GMT
But nothing Sten actually said is contradicted. Krem isn't a woman. Like I mentioned in another post, it's when you get into other situations that it starts to fall apart. Do transgender qunari women become men once more while soldiering? Are they simply barred from the craft? What if they make the decision after becoming soldiers? Are they sent to the Ben-Hassrath, allowed to keep fighting as part-time men, or kicked out and sent to do "women's work"? It just gets weird. I should have responded at the time, yeah. A transgender woman under the Qun couldn't be in the army in the first place. By definition she'd be in a female profession. You don't get to "make a decision" about this under the Qun, any more than you get to make a decision about any other aspect of identity under the Qun. Identity is assigned, not chosen. And if you don't have a fixed gender identity, that just means that you have a broken mind and need re-education. if someone suddenly switches gender identities later in life, I presume that would be a reeducation matter too, though how it would be resolved is a bit unclear. I can see the tamassrans going either way on that, though if I absolutely had to place a bet, it would be on r storing the originally assigned identity, not matter what the cost to the individual in question. But it would be their call, not hers.
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Post by alanc9 on Feb 22, 2017 22:41:39 GMT
That much is obvious, but I think the point he made is that a person like Krem would be accepted. That's what he tells himself. The truth is a different matter. I don't see why he'd be wrong about that. The Qun runs on Insane Troll Logic anyway; it's not like they'd care what Krem has under the codpiece as long as he's fulfilling his duties under the Qun.
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Post by Iakus on Feb 22, 2017 22:44:59 GMT
That's what he tells himself. The truth is a different matter. I don't see why he'd be wrong about that. The Qun runs on Insane Troll Logic anyway; it's not like they'd care what Krem has under the codpiece as long as he's fulfilling his duties under the Qun. He also thinks Cassandra would do well under the Qun. And she clearly thinks of herself as a woman. Wait, why are we debating this in a Mass Effect thread?
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Post by Element Zero on Feb 22, 2017 22:48:09 GMT
Like I mentioned in another post, it's when you get into other situations that it starts to fall apart. Do transgender qunari women become men once more while soldiering? Are they simply barred from the craft? What if they make the decision after becoming soldiers? Are they sent to the Ben-Hassrath, allowed to keep fighting as part-time men, or kicked out and sent to do "women's work"? It just gets weird. I should have responded at the time, yeah. A transgender woman under the Qun couldn't be in the army in the first place. By definition she'd be in a female profession. You don't get to "make a decision" about this under the Qun, any more than you get to make a decision about any other aspect of identity under the Qun. Identity is assigned, not chosen. And if you don't have a fixed gender identity, that just means that you have a broken mind and need re-education. if someone suddenly switches gender identities later in life, I presume that would be a reeducation matter too, though how it would be resolved is a bit unclear. I can see the tamassrans going either way on that, though if I absolutely had to place a bet, it would be on r storing the originally assigned identity, not matter what the cost to the individual in question. But it would be their call, not hers. This is definitely how I'd write it, moving forward. It's the only way that works with established lore, honestly. We'll see how BioWare decides to handle it. With tamassrans, they may not care how one identifies, as long as the person continues to fulfill their role. As long as you don't seem to be having some type of existential crisis, maybe you escape the reeducators as a tamassran?
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Post by Element Zero on Feb 22, 2017 22:50:12 GMT
I don't see why he'd be wrong about that. The Qun runs on Insane Troll Logic anyway; it's not like they'd care what Krem has under the codpiece as long as he's fulfilling his duties under the Qun. He also thinks Cassandra would do well under the Qun. And she clearly thinks of herself as a woman. Wait, why are we debating this in a Mass Effect thread?I've thought this a few times, but there didn't seem to be anything else going on worth mentioning. I'm sure a whole new batch of MEA concerns will arise with the next Demo Video.
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