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Post by spacebeetle on Jan 15, 2017 18:58:47 GMT
Yes. Normandy was a Alliance frigate while Tempest is a civilian scout ship. And that changes things how? Normandy is a fast stealth-recon frigate-sized ship, and she's armed. Which means that fast and stealthy ships can be armed. T empest is about the same in size. They are going into complete unknown. Who would suggest that it's a good idea to skip the weapons? How is scouting Andromeda any less dangerous than scouting MW? They can't add any support or protection for the unarmed Nomad and/or troops.What are they going to do if there's a local version of Thrasher Maw nearby? Fly away asap? Nope.  The tempest is not a frigate. It's a long range scout ship: like Hawker Siddeley Harrier VS Sr71 in RL. Different roles. Credit to Euderion on deviantart for the pic |
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Post by keiji on Jan 15, 2017 19:00:45 GMT
Aaryn Flynn has confirmed the same thing on twitter after I asked him :
"Nope no weapon. What's the link to the BSN thread?"
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Post by colfoley on Jan 15, 2017 19:10:59 GMT
And goodbye suspension of disbelief, I will miss you. Yet again this project has made an utterly moronic choice by doing this. There is absolutely no way this would be approved and financed by any group in the Mass Effect universe because they know how dangerous the universe can be. But hey, this is Bioware's Mass Effect team we are talking about. Of course they don't let things like logic stand in their way. Now quickly, look at the shiny graphics that they dangle like keys in front of a toddler since that's what they think we are apparently. or they are being logical and lore consistent. |
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 15, 2017 19:12:14 GMT
And goodbye suspension of disbelief, I will miss you. Yet again this project has made an utterly moronic choice by doing this. There is absolutely no way this would be approved and financed by any group in the Mass Effect universe because they know how dangerous the universe can be. But hey, this is Bioware's Mass Effect team we are talking about. Of course they don't let things like logic stand in their way. Now quickly, look at the shiny graphics that they dangle like keys in front of a toddler since that's what they think we are apparently. or they are being logical and lore consistent. No, no they aren't. |
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 15, 2017 19:13:07 GMT
And that changes things how? Normandy is a fast stealth-recon frigate-sized ship, and she's armed. Which means that fast and stealthy ships can be armed. T empest is about the same in size. They are going into complete unknown. Who would suggest that it's a good idea to skip the weapons? How is scouting Andromeda any less dangerous than scouting MW? They can't add any support or protection for the unarmed Nomad and/or troops.What are they going to do if there's a local version of Thrasher Maw nearby? Fly away asap? Nope. The tempest is not a frigate. It's a long range scout ship: like Hawker Siddeley Harrier VS Sr71 in RL. Different roles. Credit to Euderion on deviantart for the pic Ignoring the thrusters and comparing only the fuselage, they are about the same size actually. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2017 19:14:54 GMT
And goodbye suspension of disbelief, I will miss you. Yet again this project has made an utterly moronic choice by doing this. There is absolutely no way this would be approved and financed by any group in the Mass Effect universe because they know how dangerous the universe can be. But hey, this is Bioware's Mass Effect team we are talking about. Of course they don't let things like logic stand in their way. Now quickly, look at the shiny graphics that they dangle like keys in front of a toddler since that's what they think we are apparently. "Saren is going to attack the Citadel, be prepared!" "That we believe you, and we are ready for him. But your Ilos story is a little far-fetched, so you're grounded!" "Oh well! Wait, when did we discover he plans to attack the Citadel?" "Shepard, you were dead for two years, we brought you back to life, the Collectors which you've never heard about before are attacking human colonies, they are working for the Reapers, the Alliance will not help you, your former crewmates are not available, you know us as terrorists but we will give you a ship and a crew, and you are going to stop them. Bros?" "Bros." "Shepard, we need to go to the Council to get help against the Reapers." "The Citadel?! The fight's here!" "Here is an Ardat Yakshi monastery where the Reapers are converting them to banshees!" "Didn't you say only three of them existed? Did you perhaps forget about the place where your other daughters lived all this time, with more ardat yakshi asari?" "We've located where Kai Leng is! After he left Thessia, he went to Horizon! We've extrapolated his destination!" "But didn't he gave the the Catalyst to the Illusive Man on their base before he went there?! How the hell?" "We will attack Cerberus headquarters and in doing so, will have to retake Earth afterwards because the Reapers will know where the Crucible is!" "What, how?" "Doesn't matter, it's because reasons!" "But we don't know what the Catalyst is yet. Why are we going to deploy all of our fleets to Earth and possibly jeopardize the whole war effort before knowing what the thing that can actually grant us victory is?" "Well, we found out that the Citadel is the Catalyst, and it is now on Earth!" "Uhhh... okay! That's surprisingly convenient." |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2017 19:16:30 GMT
The problem is that you are calling them "defenseless" like speed and stealth aren't defenses. There are many animals in nature that use speed and camouflageas defenses instead of teeth/fangs/and claws. It has defenses, just not offensive defenses. I'm glad someone here pointed that out. Maneuverability, speed, armor, and shields are defenses. Guns only allow you to return fire (engage in combat), which is not always advisable. Also, some wiki notes about ship to ship combat: masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/StarshipsFrigates are light escort and scouting vessels. They often have extensive GARDIAN systems to provide anti-fighter screening for capital ships, and carry a squad of marines for security and groundside duty.The most important role filled by frigates is reconnaissance. For defense, fleets surround themselves with spheres of scouting frigates scanning for enemy ships and transmitting warnings to the main body. Frigates achieve high FTL cruise speeds because of their high-performance drives. They also have proportionally larger thrusters and lighter design mass, allowing them greater maneuverability. In combat, speed and maneuverability make frigates immune to long-range fire of larger vessels.masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Codex/Ships_and_VehiclesShip mobility dominates space combat; the primary objective is to align the mass accelerator along the bow with the opposing vessel's broadside. Battles typically play out as artillery duels fought at ranges measured in thousands of kilometers, though assault through defended mass relays often occur at "knife fight" ranges as close as a few dozen kilometers.
Most ship-to-ship engagements are skirmishes between patrol vessels of cruiser weight and below, with dreadnoughts and carriers only deployed in full-scale fleet actions. Battles in open space are short and often inconclusive, as the weaker opponent generally disengages.
Once a ship enters FTL flight the combat is effectively over; there are no sensors capable of tracking them, or weapons capable of damaging them. The only way to guarantee an enemy will stand and fight is to attack a location they have a vested interest in, such as a settled world or a strategically-important mass relay.Heat limits the length and intensity of ship-to-ship combat. Starships generate enormous heat when they fire high-energy weapons, perform maneuvering burns, and run on-board combat electronics. It's possible that the reason the Nomad is not fitted with weaponry is because it was also designed for speed and maneuverability, intended to flee rather than engage. Cutscenes are usually designed to set an emotional tone, and are often inconsistent with lore. |
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Post by Ocelot on Jan 15, 2017 19:19:10 GMT
What about those 4 little points at the front and back. They could have easily made guns out of those.
It literally doesn't have to be powerful, just some sort of defence is enough.
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Post by themikefest on Jan 15, 2017 19:21:15 GMT
Not that it matters much since they mentioned already the Pathfinder has military skills, and at least the siblings had military training as well, but technically, Ryder and squadmates operate after arriving in andromeda, and knowing the situation isn't as peaceful as the Initiative seemed to think. As I said in another thread, it seems they want to make the Initiative intentionally dumb and pacifist. At this point I wouldn't ever bet on the presence of other ships with weapons. As I said in another thread. If I was invited by the Jein woman to go to Andromeda, my question to her is what weapons and defenses would these ships have and what weapons would the car have? She will give me a funny look. But it's a question I would ask. I guess its the military in me that would ask. That is one of the reasons why I would never go to Andromeda. |
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 15, 2017 19:21:32 GMT
The problem is that you are calling them "defenseless" like speed and stealth aren't defenses. There are many animals in nature that use speed and camouflageas defenses instead of teeth/fangs/and claws. It has defenses, just not offensive defenses. I'm glad someone here pointed that out. Maneuverability, speed, armor, and shields are defenses. Guns only allow you to return fire (engage in combat), which is not always advisable. Also, some wiki notes about ship to ship combat: masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/StarshipsFrigates are light escort and scouting vessels. They often have extensive GARDIAN systems to provide anti-fighter screening for capital ships, and carry a squad of marines for security and groundside duty.The most important role filled by frigates is reconnaissance. For defense, fleets surround themselves with spheres of scouting frigates scanning for enemy ships and transmitting warnings to the main body. Frigates achieve high FTL cruise speeds because of their high-performance drives. They also have proportionally larger thrusters and lighter design mass, allowing them greater maneuverability. In combat, speed and maneuverability make frigates immune to long-range fire of larger vessels.masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Codex/Ships_and_VehiclesShip mobility dominates space combat; the primary objective is to align the mass accelerator along the bow with the opposing vessel's broadside. Battles typically play out as artillery duels fought at ranges measured in thousands of kilometers, though assault through defended mass relays often occur at "knife fight" ranges as close as a few dozen kilometers.
Most ship-to-ship engagements are skirmishes between patrol vessels of cruiser weight and below, with dreadnoughts and carriers only deployed in full-scale fleet actions. Battles in open space are short and often inconclusive, as the weaker opponent generally disengages.
Once a ship enters FTL flight the combat is effectively over; there are no sensors capable of tracking them, or weapons capable of damaging them. The only way to guarantee an enemy will stand and fight is to attack a location they have a vested interest in, such as a settled world or a strategically-important mass relay.Heat limits the length and intensity of ship-to-ship combat. Starships generate enormous heat when they fire high-energy weapons, perform maneuvering burns, and run on-board combat electronics. It's possible that the reason the Nomad is not fitted with weaponry is because it was also designed for speed and maneuverability, intended to flee rather than engage. The Tempest has no way ton defend the crew on the ground or allies/innocents who need help though. All it can do is run and hide like a coward. That's my issue. As for the Nomad, no the reason is because Bioware didn't want to have to design the game with both kinds of combat in mind so they stripped it of weaponry. Because oh yeah, a 100 lb gun is totally going to stop it from being fast and maneuverable but an 800 pound krogan is no issue. |
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Post by colfoley on Jan 15, 2017 19:22:18 GMT
or they are being logical and lore consistent. No, no they aren't. consider: the only privately held ship that had weapons in the OT that we saw was the SR2. A ship made by a terrorist organization. Consider: the citadel has made a treaty outlawing the development of drednaughts. The arks are massive ships, putting weapons on them would count as a dreadnaught. Consider: the turians enforced the other well known treaty, on a species they never met before, WITH WEAPONS FIRE. Consider even the mercenaries in the Terminus systems also did not run around in armed ships. Conclusion: if the AI armed itself it would have likely been declared an illegal PMC which would have caused the council to issue a deadly response. Conclusion: only an insane person would arm the AI. |
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Post by Sartoz on Jan 15, 2017 19:25:21 GMT
,.-~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸-(_MEA_)-,.-~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸
Ryder's mission objectives is to scout for suitable colony worlds and report back to the Nexus. To do that, the Pathfinders gets a hybrid ship designed for that purpose. The Tempest is both a Scout vessel with Stealth tech and also has research facilities. The latter allows Ryder to upgrade gear from possible new alien tech they find.
This makes sense. The Nexus and ARKs are in no way designed to be like Commander Adama's Battlestar Galactica. Thus, the need to hide until humanity has a strong beach head in the cluster.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2017 19:27:40 GMT
consider: the only privately held ship that had weapons in the OT that we saw was the SR2. A ship made by a terrorist organization. Consider: the citadel has made a treaty outlawing the development of drednaughts. The arks are massive ships, putting weapons on them would count as a dreadnaught. Consider: the turians enforced the other well known treaty, on a species they never met before, WITH WEAPONS FIRE. Consider even the mercenaries in the Terminus systems also did not run around in armed ships. Conclusion: if the AI armed itself it would have likely been declared an illegal PMC which would have caused the council to issue a deadly response. Conclusion: only an insane person would arm the AI. Consider: We are going into a completely unknown region with at least 80.000 people to start a new life there (OUT of the COUNCIL JURISDICTION), there won't be any Council to defend us in case something goes wrong, so their rules don't apply anymore. We need means to defend ourselves. Even the briefings mention that the Arks, or at least the Nexus would be defended by fighters (IIRC) Only an insane person would not arm the AI. |
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 15, 2017 19:28:26 GMT
consider: the only privately held ship that had weapons in the OT that we saw was the SR2. A ship made by a terrorist organization. Consider: the citadel has made a treaty outlawing the development of drednaughts. The arks are massive ships, putting weapons on them would count as a dreadnaught. Consider: the turians enforced the other well known treaty, on a species they never met before, WITH WEAPONS FIRE. Consider even the mercenaries in the Terminus systems also did not run around in armed ships. Conclusion: if the AI armed itself it would have likely been declared an illegal PMC which would have caused the council to issue a deadly response. Conclusion: only an insane person would arm the AI. No, there are other privately-owned ships we encounter that have had weaponry. Not a main cannon, but smaller guns to defend themselves. The Arks would only be considered a dreadnought if equipped with a large central rail cannon once it reaches a certain size. Having GUARDIAN lasers wouldn't classify them as such. The Terminus Systems ships are armed to the teeth. We see this. No, only if they armed them with a large central cannon would they be even close to breaking the Treaty of Farixen. Having smaller armament that can still defend the ships wouldn't be seen as an issue and would be seen as smart since they know how dangerous the universe is. Conclusion: Only an insane person would send tens of thousands of people to a new galaxy with no means to defend themselves other than small arms. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2017 19:29:14 GMT
The Tempest has no way ton defend the crew on the ground or allies/innocents who need help though. All it can do is run and hide like a coward. That's my issue. The Tempest has a very specific purpose. The AI may have other ships equipped for military use. Also: if the Tempest needed armaments for anything that actually occurs in the story, it would have them. Maybe - and I'll be disappointed if I find I can no longer snipe enemies from a distance, as I could with ME1 (in or out of the Mako). Either way, these things aren't make or break for me. |
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 15, 2017 19:33:05 GMT
The Tempest has no way ton defend the crew on the ground or allies/innocents who need help though. All it can do is run and hide like a coward. That's my issue. The Tempest has a very specific purpose. The AI may have other ships equipped for military use. Also: if the Tempest needed armaments for anything that actually occurs in the story, it would have them. Maybe - and I'll be disappointed if I find I can no longer snipe enemies from a distance, as I could with ME1 (in or out of the Mako). Either way, these things aren't make or break for me. That is small comfort when those ships you mention, if they exist, are a day away. They'll just come to see the ruins and corpses of what could have been living breathing people if we had means to defend them. What, is everyone involved in the Andromeda Initiative clairvoyant and know the events of the game thus know they don't need guns? You'll still be able to snipe long distance on foot. They just designed the game around on-foot combat. I'm glad for you, truly. However this plus their other decisions are making it very close to breaking this for me. |
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wright1978
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Post by wright1978 on Jan 15, 2017 19:33:51 GMT
Personally i can't see any logic that convinces me that a pleasure yacht is the best choice for the very specific purpose of exploring a new galaxy.
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Post by colfoley on Jan 15, 2017 19:34:10 GMT
consider: the only privately held ship that had weapons in the OT that we saw was the SR2. A ship made by a terrorist organization. Consider: the citadel has made a treaty outlawing the development of drednaughts. The arks are massive ships, putting weapons on them would count as a dreadnaught. Consider: the turians enforced the other well known treaty, on a species they never met before, WITH WEAPONS FIRE. Consider even the mercenaries in the Terminus systems also did not run around in armed ships. Conclusion: if the AI armed itself it would have likely been declared an illegal PMC which would have caused the council to issue a deadly response. Conclusion: only an insane person would arm the AI. Consider: We are going into a completely unknown region with at least 80.000 people to start a new life there (OUT of the COUNCIL JURISDICTION), there won't be any Council to defend us in case something goes wrong, so their rules don't apply anymore. We need means to defend ourselves. Even the briefings mention that the Arks, or at least the Nexus would be defended by fighters (IIRC) Only an insane person would not arm the AI. they were in council space during construction though. As far as fighters are concerned the council didn't think those threatening. consider: the only privately held ship that had weapons in the OT that we saw was the SR2. A ship made by a terrorist organization. Consider: the citadel has made a treaty outlawing the development of drednaughts. The arks are massive ships, putting weapons on them would count as a dreadnaught. Consider: the turians enforced the other well known treaty, on a species they never met before, WITH WEAPONS FIRE. Consider even the mercenaries in the Terminus systems also did not run around in armed ships. Conclusion: if the AI armed itself it would have likely been declared an illegal PMC which would have caused the council to issue a deadly response. Conclusion: only an insane person would arm the AI. No, there are other privately-owned ships we encounter that have had weaponry. Not a main cannon, but smaller guns to defend themselves. The Arks would only be considered a dreadnought if equipped with a large central rail cannon once it reaches a certain size. Having GUARDIAN lasers wouldn't classify them as such. The Terminus Systems ships are armed to the teeth. We see this. No, only if they armed them with a large central cannon would they be even close to breaking the Treaty of Farixen. Having smaller armament that can still defend the ships wouldn't be seen as an issue and would be seen as smart since they know how dangerous the universe is. Conclusion: Only an insane person would send tens of thousands of people to a new galaxy with no means to defend themselves other than small arms. and yet you give no examples. |
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Post by Giant Ambush Beetle on Jan 15, 2017 19:35:36 GMT
consider: the only privately held ship that had weapons in the OT that we saw was the SR2. A ship made by a terrorist organization. Consider: the citadel has made a treaty outlawing the development of drednaughts. The arks are massive ships, putting weapons on them would count as a dreadnaught. Consider: the turians enforced the other well known treaty, on a species they never met before, WITH WEAPONS FIRE. Consider even the mercenaries in the Terminus systems also did not run around in armed ships. Conclusion: if the AI armed itself it would have likely been declared an illegal PMC which would have caused the council to issue a deadly response. Conclusion: only an insane person would arm the AI. With a mission of this magnitude I have a hard time imagining they weren't allowed to install a couple of turrets on vehicles for safety measures. That just makes no sense. Be honest, if you were part of this project, would you be ok with this decision? Exploring stuff in the Mass Effect Universe with small arms only and no way to call for backup, air support etc.? |
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 15, 2017 19:35:44 GMT
No, there are other privately-owned ships we encounter that have had weaponry. Not a main cannon, but smaller guns to defend themselves. The Arks would only be considered a dreadnought if equipped with a large central rail cannon once it reaches a certain size. Having GUARDIAN lasers wouldn't classify them as such. The Terminus Systems ships are armed to the teeth. We see this. No, only if they armed them with a large central cannon would they be even close to breaking the Treaty of Farixen. Having smaller armament that can still defend the ships wouldn't be seen as an issue and would be seen as smart since they know how dangerous the universe is. Conclusion: Only an insane person would send tens of thousands of people to a new galaxy with no means to defend themselves other than small arms. and yet you give no examples. What part would you like an example of? |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2017 19:39:09 GMT
Personally i can't see any logic that convinces me that a pleasure yacht is the best choice for the very specific purpose of exploring a new galaxy. And there isn't any. People saying the contrary are just trying to find an excuse to defend this poor gaming mechanics. Of course if the devs decide that we will find no threat in space or while driving the Nomad, obviously there won't be any, but that is so unrealistic in a game setting with already established (and rich) lore that it hurts my heart. We may as well have flying humans throwing moons and destroying entire star systems with their fists, if that's the fantasy people here can defend. It's just creating a universe and don't sticking by your own rules. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2017 19:43:16 GMT
Consider: We are going into a completely unknown region with at least 80.000 people to start a new life there (OUT of the COUNCIL JURISDICTION), there won't be any Council to defend us in case something goes wrong, so their rules don't apply anymore. We need means to defend ourselves. Even the briefings mention that the Arks, or at least the Nexus would be defended by fighters (IIRC) Only an insane person would not arm the AI. they were in council space during construction though. As far as fighters are concerned the council didn't think those threatening. No, there are other privately-owned ships we encounter that have had weaponry. Not a main cannon, but smaller guns to defend themselves. The Arks would only be considered a dreadnought if equipped with a large central rail cannon once it reaches a certain size. Having GUARDIAN lasers wouldn't classify them as such. The Terminus Systems ships are armed to the teeth. We see this. No, only if they armed them with a large central cannon would they be even close to breaking the Treaty of Farixen. Having smaller armament that can still defend the ships wouldn't be seen as an issue and would be seen as smart since they know how dangerous the universe is. Conclusion: Only an insane person would send tens of thousands of people to a new galaxy with no means to defend themselves other than small arms. and yet you give no examples. I mean, seriously? So you suppose, per your logic, the Council would have given the green light to a project with this magnitude and send 80.000 people to their deaths, they would have forbidden the development of the Ai defenses just because they were building it in their territory? And if they did built all this in secret from the Council why would they bother with their laws? I'm sorry, I'm just gonna leave. |
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Post by Iakus on Jan 15, 2017 19:44:00 GMT
I wonder how many times in the game we will be like "it would be just great if I could ask for air support". From the trailers we already know at least one. |
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drainingdragon
Draining Dragon
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by Draining Dragon on Jan 15, 2017 19:50:14 GMT
I wonder how many times in the game we will be like "it would be just great if I could ask for air support". From the trailers we already know at least one. NO TIME FOR AERIAL BOMBARDMENT |
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Champion of the Raven Queen
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3,489
maximusarael020
1,651
August 2016
maximusarael020
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
MaximusArael020
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Post by maximusarael020 on Jan 15, 2017 19:57:17 GMT
they were in council space during construction though. As far as fighters are concerned the council didn't think those threatening. and yet you give no examples. I mean, seriously? So you suppose, per your logic, the Council would have given the green light to a project with this magnitude and send 80.000 people to their deaths, they would have forbidden the development of the Ai defenses just because they were building it in their territory? And if they did built all this in secret from the Council why would they bother with their laws? I'm sorry, I'm just gonna leave. They don't need Council approval or a "green light". It is privately funded. That doesn't necessarily mean it's secret (I know there is controversy in the marketing about whether it is a secret initiative) and if it is not secret then they would still have to follow council laws. Now, once they get to Andromeda they would not, so if the could arm their vehicles or build weapons for ships while they are there is another argument. |
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