Iakus
N7
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 21,290 Likes: 50,647
inherit
402
0
Dec 21, 2018 17:35:11 GMT
50,647
Iakus
21,290
August 2016
iakus
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
|
Post by Iakus on Oct 3, 2016 18:52:12 GMT
Way back in ME1 - they opened the idea by giving the player a choice whether or not to recommend gene therapy for Rebecca's child (i.e. side with the uncle in overriding the mother's choice or siding with the mother in taking the risk of a "natural" heart disease). The told us about things like the Reapers luring Alliance officers into talks of peace so they could indoctrinate them "in the name of peace." If they didn't want us to be able to interpret that there could be a dark side to synthesis, they would not have put that sort of suggestion into the game. The dark side of synthesis was shown as well as the potential benefits that inserting AI med tech could have (i.e. Quarians with boosted immune system, babies without heart conditions, etc.). Too bad Rebekkah couldn't tell Shepard to take a hike. I know I would have. Why would I want some stranger voicing their opinion on what I choose to do to my unborn baby? The green is something that is forced. Not by the thing, but by Shepard. No one has a choice when Shepard takes the plunge into the beam of goodies Excuse me, Rebekah, but I have some literature on new gene therapy treatments. They're in Docking Bay D24
|
|
Tewais
N1
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire
Posts: 8 Likes: 16
inherit
1684
0
Jun 24, 2022 14:03:05 GMT
16
Tewais
8
Sept 27, 2016 18:15:29 GMT
September 2016
tewais
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire
|
Post by Tewais on Oct 3, 2016 20:19:38 GMT
Please read the above. The downside of Synthesis is there and it is shown in the game and was foreshadowed in the game prior to the ending. I have and I've read your others posts too. Still unconvinced. :/ For Miranda, Okeer, and so on, it's something I've noticed too (it's fairly obvious) but how is this shown in the ending? In what way? No one seems to suffer of the emotional toll of being engineered and no one point out the hum..."lost purpose of their imperfect previous selves" either... (It's a real question, by the way.) These questions were raised during the game (no one is saying otherwise) but these implications aren't shown in the ending. The speech of the shepalyst in control (even the paragon one) is clearly in the grey area, it may or not have some unpleasant implications one day of another. The soundtrack is a bit grim. (It may be just me, but the paragon speech freaks me out even more than the renegade one.) In destroy, well, must admit that I don't like Hackett's speech that much (they will rebuild? what a surprise! and here I thought everyone will sit on his ass forever) but the loss of EDI and the Geth is acknowledged (they could have insisted on their loss a bit more but it's there). It's heavily implied than the galaxy will be vigilant to not let a race of synthetics raised again (and the galaxy may or may not succeed). The soundtrack isn't particularly joyful either. In Synthesis, EDI who was alive in London is "more" alive (apparently) and she's with her loved one. Everyone is ok. Wreav is peaceful (it may be the only glimpse to some unpleasant implications...but you must have Wreav). The soundtrack is close to the galaxy map one, familiar and reassuring. "As a galaxy, we can now live the lives we have wished for; taking our steps into a new and wonderful future, where organics and synthetics can coexist peacefully. With peace across the galaxy and unlimited access to knowledge, to recover the greatness that was lost, and surpass it. We will reclaim our worlds...and the stars. As the line between synthetic and organic disappears, we may transcend mortality itself,..." Where is the acknowledgement of the moral questions raised during the game concerning this choice? Oh, well, we can also agree to disagree, those endings (all of them) as they are presented in both the original and the EC version are still a total disappointing mess for me from the concept to the execution... so my only hope for Andromeda is that the endings will be left behind and none set up as canon.
|
|
inherit
♨ Retired
24
0
Nov 26, 2024 12:38:10 GMT
26,299
themikefest
15,635
August 2016
themikefest
21,655
15,426
|
Post by themikefest on Oct 3, 2016 20:27:59 GMT
Excuse me, Rebekah, but I have some literature on new gene therapy treatments. They're in Docking Bay D24 Shepard: Do you know anything about the crucible? catalyst: Yes. It creates a portal. Shepard: To where? catalyst: To docking bay D24. There you will find a red, blue and green box. Shepard: What do you mean? catalyst: The red box is to destroy the reapers. The blue box is to control the reapers. The green box is to merge machine and organics. Be aware. Once you open a box, there is no turning back.
|
|
Iakus
N7
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 21,290 Likes: 50,647
inherit
402
0
Dec 21, 2018 17:35:11 GMT
50,647
Iakus
21,290
August 2016
iakus
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
|
Post by Iakus on Oct 3, 2016 20:38:39 GMT
And I am saying (again) that the ending intended to be the "best" was Synthesis. Not what ended up being the fan favorite. MEHEM is based on Destroy largely because it is the simplest. Making a happy ending mod out of Control or Synehisis would, I am given to understand, be more difficult due to the requirement of an explanation as to what's going on that a "Reaper off switch" simply doesn't need. That said, I suspect that a big part of the reason why Destroy is so popular is because Shepard can be implied to have survived. If such an ending was available under all three colors, I am certain Red would lose some support. The problem with "everything is perfect" in Green is that not everybody would be cool with it. Some would be quite violently opposed to it. Yet we do not see any of that. EDI even says that transhumanism is a contentious topic among humans. This in turn makes one wonder how this universal peace can come about so suddenly and completely in such a diverse society. Even the krogan are peaceful, even under conditions which would start a civil war otherwise If your "proof" of intent is just the EMS scale, then clearly Destroy Shepard Lives was intended to be the "best" ending... involving the most effort by the player to achieve. As for MEHEM, I don't care why it was chosen... I'm saying they named it a "happy ending" mod. The "completeness" of the transformation (making everyone think exactly alike) IS the negative shown... and it is clearly shown. The thought that there are problems with making everyone this alike is brought into the game several times - first with Wrex in the elevator on the Citadel ME1 when he chastises Ashley or Kaidan for indicating that he's not what they expected and Wrex responds sarcastically with: "Right. Because you humans have a wide range of cultures and attitudes, but krogan all think and act exactly alike." With Javik, when he indicates that part of the downfall of the Protheans was that everyone followed the empire and then admits that this cycle's diversity might be what saves them. EDI touches on it when describing what the Quarians did wrong when they made the geth when she indicates that individuals develop preferences. They aren't showing everyone with the glowing green eyes to make everyone think the ending is perfect... their showing it that way to make people feel unsettled. If they wanted Synthesis to be adopted as the perfect solution, they would not have put it out there as a basic change in every organic's DNA... They inserted the flaw... why can't you give them credit for that? If it was meant to be anything more than an easter egg, I'd agree. But it took on a life of its own when people saw how awful the endings were and poor, faceless, torso-Shep was pretty much the only silver lining to be found. "Happy Ending" mod was supposed to be ironic. Because, you know Shepard is shown to actually live and is something more than a charred torso lying in debris. Making everyone think alike is shown. But it is not shown to be anything but a positive. Everyone is happy, peaceful, coming back stronger than ever. Oh and now EDI is ALIVE!!!! Like she hadn't told me that already before receiving Shepard's "organic energy" And don't think I find Synthesis unique in this. Nobody gives a sh*t when EDI and the geth die in Destroy. Noone mentions it or cares. Similarly, no one seems to care about their new robotic overlords in Control. Unless buildings blow up when the wave hits, it looks like there's very little in the way of negative consequences for any choice. But for the fact that everyone is too numb to see what they have lost in the name of survival.
|
|
DoomsdayDevice
N3
Oh, me so scrubby! Me pugging long time! --- 78 URs to go
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate
Prime Posts: 2357
Posts: 351 Likes: 1,027
inherit
794
0
1,027
DoomsdayDevice
Oh, me so scrubby! Me pugging long time! --- 78 URs to go
351
August 2016
hipsterjack
Mass Effect Trilogy, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate
2357
|
Post by DoomsdayDevice on Oct 3, 2016 21:10:54 GMT
I think the problem here is discussing from different perspectives. On the one hand, "what did the devs intend" is talked about. On the other, it's RPing Shepard in the moment. So, yeah, in the moment there's no reason to assume Shepard should trust anything the Intelligence has to say. (I'm not a fan of using Catalyst because that's in terms of making the Crucible work - an energy source, basically - while the Intelligence is the thing created by the Leviathans.) If I were talking to the thing that had been committing constant genocide over the course of the past billion years or so - and which had even created the mass relays to speed up the process - I'd be suspicious of anything it had to say. The horrors the Reapers created are, to me, evidence that it's not just doing a job, but making it far worse than it has to be. They could just kill us, but instead they make us suffer. Why would I trust a being who thinks that's a good idea? We also generally fight wars to a point of "surrender" or "negotiation" of a cease fire agreement. To do this and end a war does require a level of trust between the leaders of the warring parties as well as a level of trust between the people and the leader representing them. The writing is such that the player can also interpret the completion of the Crucible as being a sufficient enough threat to effectively invoke a "surrender" from the Reaper leader (i.e. the Catalyst)... and then proceed to negotiate that "cease fire" treaty with it. So, the in moment reason to perhaps trust the Catalyst is if Shepard believes the Crucible is enough of an intimidation to invoke a "surrender" rather than an elaborate con job. I would expect even a surrendering leader to at least try to negotiate a way to save his/her people from extinction. I'm not trying to convince you that it's a good idea... In some IRL circumstances, negotiating a trust between warring parties has been a better idea than subjugating the "losing" party to the point of where an even worse regime rises up in rebellion a few years later (e.g. Germany WW1 to WWII). All I've been saying is that the game is written with some open ground here for different people playing Shepards of different personalities to logically interpret the situation differently by assigning different levels of importance to the variety of little details present in the game. The only "intention" I'm giving the developers is the intention to write a game that can be interpreted in more than one way. Was it done completely without their personal biases showing through?... No, it was not. They are only human after all. Were they intentionally trying to lead and mislead people into believing what they personally might believe about the situation? I don't think so. If that was their intention, the game would have been written with far stronger messages overall... without all the vague language and innuendoes tearing people in bi-polar directions. Should I trust or believe that people here are writing their posts in an unbiased way? No... not when they frame in comments like ""We've seen no other examples than horrific ones." when, quite clearly, that is not what was presented within the time frame the game covered. We've seen no other examples of Reaper-tech based organic-synthetic hybridization than horrific ones, but the Quarian / Geth situation could be the only example if we knew how it worked out in the long run in a scenario where the conflict hasn't been resolved. On the other hand I can throw around copious amounts of horrific examples. But let's agree to disagree. I'd like to address the other argument, where you're making comparisons to real life situations about resolving conflicts and trusting your enemies. In real life, we're not facing an enemy that's been around for a billion years, is vastly more intelligent than anything we could even imagine, and is known to be able to influence people's thoughts, control their behaviour, and rewrite entire neural pathways just by letting a few trinkets lie around for them to toy with. We're talking about an intelligence that has conned at least twenty thousand civilizations into "ascension", and has "harvested" at least a hundred thousand other civilizations. An intelligence that can read your mind and your memories and use those to show you completely realistic illusions. No one can afford to pass up the opportunity of technical (or in the Geth's case: spiritual) advancement that its tech offers; the Citadel, the relays, it's all nothing but a trap. Study the tech, fall into the trap. Not only that, it knows its psychology. It knows how to manipulate mental weaknesses, like how humans always want to save everyone. And perhaps the greatest weakness it knows is that an organic will do anything, if offered hope. The Reaper intelligence is the greatest example you will ever find of a perfect con man. The Crucible was possibly the biggest trap of all. Like all other "Prothean" tech, we just find it somewhere conveniently close to Earth, it's conveniently easy to use and build, even though we have no idea how it works. It's genius. Make the silly organics find the blueprints to a supposed super weapon. Give them hope. They'll pour an ungodly amount of resources into the thing that would have otherwise been spent on the war against you. In the end they themselves will have constructed the device for you that'll help them ascend, and they won't even realize it. It's so devious, so clever. Giving them hope and letting them build the thing that'll end them. That's the kind of con man we're talking about. It would be like Trump not only succeeding in getting the Mexicans to pay for the wall, but also in letting them build it themselves. And not only that, when the thing is finished, having it come to life and wiping Mexico off the face of the Earth, and having the Mexicans welcoming it with flowers and festivities because they'd been tricked into thinking it's the second coming of Christ. That's the kind of con man the Reaper intelligence is.
|
|
Tewais
N1
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire
Posts: 8 Likes: 16
inherit
1684
0
Jun 24, 2022 14:03:05 GMT
16
Tewais
8
Sept 27, 2016 18:15:29 GMT
September 2016
tewais
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire
|
Post by Tewais on Oct 3, 2016 21:13:26 GMT
And don't think I find Synthesis unique in this. Nobody gives a sh*t when EDI and the geth die in Destroy. Noone mentions it or cares. Similarly, no one seems to care about their new robotic overlords in Control. Unless buildings blow up when the wave hits, it looks like there's very little in the way of negative consequences for any choice. But for the fact that everyone is too numb to see what they have lost in the name of survival. You're right. I still think that synthesis got a pass even more than the other endings, it's the ideal solution after all They aren't mentioned but you see a slide of EDI and/or the Geth when Hackett talk about the ones we lost (I know, it's far from enough but it's there). The shepalyst's speeches are terrifying...at least, to me and that's why I see them as less "dishonest" than what is shown in synthesis but sure, people doesn't seems too worried about their new..hum... "leader". *sigh* All in all, I'm probably too dumb or something to get the uplifting and inspiring experience I was suppose to enjoy.
|
|
inherit
1480
0
1,080
gothpunkboy89
2,311
September 2016
gothpunkboy89
|
Post by gothpunkboy89 on Oct 4, 2016 1:00:43 GMT
We also generally fight wars to a point of "surrender" or "negotiation" of a cease fire agreement. To do this and end a war does require a level of trust between the leaders of the warring parties as well as a level of trust between the people and the leader representing them. The writing is such that the player can also interpret the completion of the Crucible as being a sufficient enough threat to effectively invoke a "surrender" from the Reaper leader (i.e. the Catalyst)... and then proceed to negotiate that "cease fire" treaty with it. So, the in moment reason to perhaps trust the Catalyst is if Shepard believes the Crucible is enough of an intimidation to invoke a "surrender" rather than an elaborate con job. I would expect even a surrendering leader to at least try to negotiate a way to save his/her people from extinction. I'm not trying to convince you that it's a good idea... In some IRL circumstances, negotiating a trust between warring parties has been a better idea than subjugating the "losing" party to the point of where an even worse regime rises up in rebellion a few years later (e.g. Germany WW1 to WWII). All I've been saying is that the game is written with some open ground here for different people playing Shepards of different personalities to logically interpret the situation differently by assigning different levels of importance to the variety of little details present in the game. The only "intention" I'm giving the developers is the intention to write a game that can be interpreted in more than one way. Was it done completely without their personal biases showing through?... No, it was not. They are only human after all. Were they intentionally trying to lead and mislead people into believing what they personally might believe about the situation? I don't think so. If that was their intention, the game would have been written with far stronger messages overall... without all the vague language and innuendoes tearing people in bi-polar directions. Should I trust or believe that people here are writing their posts in an unbiased way? No... not when they frame in comments like ""We've seen no other examples than horrific ones." when, quite clearly, that is not what was presented within the time frame the game covered. We've seen no other examples of Reaper-tech based organic-synthetic hybridization than horrific ones, but the Quarian / Geth situation could be the only example if we knew how it worked out in the long run in a scenario where the conflict hasn't been resolved. On the other hand I can throw around copious amounts of horrific examples. But let's agree to disagree. I'd like to address the other argument, where you're making comparisons to real life situations about resolving conflicts and trusting your enemies. In real life, we're not facing an enemy that's been around for a billion years, is vastly more intelligent than anything we could even imagine, and is known to be able to influence people's thoughts, control their behaviour, and rewrite entire neural pathways just by letting a few trinkets lie around for them to toy with. We're talking about an intelligence that has conned at least twenty thousand civilizations into "ascension", and has "harvested" at least a hundred thousand other civilizations. An intelligence that can read your mind and your memories and use those to show you completely realistic illusions. No one can afford to pass up the opportunity of technical (or in the Geth's case: spiritual) advancement that its tech offers; the Citadel, the relays, it's all nothing but a trap. Study the tech, fall into the trap. Not only that, it knows its psychology. It knows how to manipulate mental weaknesses, like how humans always want to save everyone. And perhaps the greatest weakness it knows is that an organic will do anything, if offered hope. The Reaper intelligence is the greatest example you will ever find of a perfect con man. The Crucible was possibly the biggest trap of all. Like all other "Prothean" tech, we just find it somewhere conveniently close to Earth, it's conveniently easy to use and build, even though we have no idea how it works. It's genius. Make the silly organics find the blueprints to a supposed super weapon. Give them hope. They'll pour an ungodly amount of resources into the thing that would have otherwise been spent on the war against you. In the end they themselves will have constructed the device for you that'll help them ascend, and they won't even realize it. It's so devious, so clever. Giving them hope and letting them build the thing that'll end them. That's the kind of con man we're talking about. It would be like Trump not only succeeding in getting the Mexicans to pay for the wall, but also in letting them build it themselves. And not only that, when the thing is finished, having it come to life and wiping Mexico off the face of the Earth, and having the Mexicans welcoming it with flowers and festivities because they'd been tricked into thinking it's the second coming of Christ. That's the kind of con man the Reaper intelligence is. Giving the Reapers far more credit then they deserve.
|
|
dmc1001
N7
Biotic Booty
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: ferroboy
Prime Posts: 77
Posts: 9,942 Likes: 17,687
inherit
Biotic Booty
1031
0
Nov 16, 2024 14:01:33 GMT
17,687
dmc1001
9,942
August 2016
dmc1001
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
ferroboy
77
|
Post by dmc1001 on Oct 4, 2016 1:46:18 GMT
Green? And throw life's chance to evolve into something wonderful ON ITS OWN for the first time since the Intelligence was created? I think not. That's just continuing on a path they created. That is, my Shepard's see things that way. ... and that's the Krogan idea, isn't it? Tear everything down, start building something wonderful on it's own... without pulling anything forward from the past. See, the game introduced that thought as well... but I'm willing to bet that people here will dislike "destroy" being framed within the thought that it's what the Krogan had been doing for centuries. It's a catch 22 dilemma... no choice is ideal, no choice is universally "horrific" either, each represents, not one, but at least two directions of socio-political thoughts, each one was completely foreshadowed by earlier elements of the game, and no single one of them can or should be made canon. The krogan were destroying, sure, but not with the intention of saving anyone by doing so. Even so, I save the krogan, so your argument falls flat with me.
|
|
dmc1001
N7
Biotic Booty
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: ferroboy
Prime Posts: 77
Posts: 9,942 Likes: 17,687
inherit
Biotic Booty
1031
0
Nov 16, 2024 14:01:33 GMT
17,687
dmc1001
9,942
August 2016
dmc1001
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
ferroboy
77
|
Post by dmc1001 on Oct 4, 2016 2:24:38 GMT
Green? And throw life's chance to evolve into something wonderful ON ITS OWN for the first time since the Intelligence was created? I think not. That's just continuing on a path they created. That is, my Shepard's see things that way. meh, sometimes you gotta take that leap of faith, leap into the unknown. We did that with the mass-relays and we are better for doing so. >"But HYR, the relays were set as a trap by the Reapers to develop along their own paths!" Yeah, and how did that work out for them? The Protheans learned how to make them, slipped a few scientists under the Reapers' noses and used that knowledge to help our cycle stop them. If anything, I only see this as more reason to embrace and explore these things, not merely discard and run. Besides, it may have saved the species. Earth was becoming severely over-populated. I reject the Legion "build our own future" philosophy. Ironically, the guy who promotes the alternative philosophy is none other than Javik, specifically on Thessia in response to what Shepard says about the Protheans guiding the asari's development. I'm supposed to take a leap of faith based on an entity that has killed more lives than we can actually conceptualize? And it did it to "save" us? No, my Shep won't buy into it. Option Red: The Intelligence, and everything it created, is destroyed. Option Blue: The Intelligence, and everything it created, is mind controlled. Option Green: "This won't kill me or make me a slave so please pick it!" Sounds a bit like the Intelligence it just trying to save his ass. And, for the record, it does't reserve forgiveness of any sort. No, it has to go,'' Note: I try to come up with this stuff from the perspective of Shepard when presented with these choices. Shepard doesn't know about the cut scenes that will follow. Shepard only knows this thing has turned humans into husks and has tricked others into thinking that killing their own people is actually a beneficial thing to do, or that siding with the Reapers will save them. Those were lies. The thing ain't trustworthy from a Shepard perspective.
|
|
inherit
1063
0
2,710
HYR
Join RadLounge!!! Go to: radlounge.boards.net
1,770
August 2016
hyr
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
HYRforTheWIN
|
Post by HYR on Oct 4, 2016 3:58:15 GMT
meh, sometimes you gotta take that leap of faith, leap into the unknown. We did that with the mass-relays and we are better for doing so. >"But HYR, the relays were set as a trap by the Reapers to develop along their own paths!" Yeah, and how did that work out for them? The Protheans learned how to make them, slipped a few scientists under the Reapers' noses and used that knowledge to help our cycle stop them. If anything, I only see this as more reason to embrace and explore these things, not merely discard and run. Besides, it may have saved the species. Earth was becoming severely over-populated. I reject the Legion "build our own future" philosophy. Ironically, the guy who promotes the alternative philosophy is none other than Javik, specifically on Thessia in response to what Shepard says about the Protheans guiding the asari's development. I'm supposed to take a leap of faith based on an entity that has killed more lives than we can actually conceptualize? And it did it to "save" us? No, my Shep won't buy into it. Option Red: The Intelligence, and everything it created, is destroyed. Option Blue: The Intelligence, and everything it created, is mind controlled. Option Green: "This won't kill me or make me a slave so please pick it!" Sounds a bit like the Intelligence it just trying to save his ass. And, for the record, it does't reserve forgiveness of any sort. No, it has to go,'' Note: I try to come up with this stuff from the perspective of Shepard when presented with these choices. Shepard doesn't know about the cut scenes that will follow. Shepard only knows this thing has turned humans into husks and has tricked others into thinking that killing their own people is actually a beneficial thing to do, or that siding with the Reapers will save them. Those were lies. The thing ain't trustworthy from a Shepard perspective. I was talking more about faith in the Crucible working right than what the Catalyst said. For my part, I do think the Catalyst tells us everything to the best of his knowledge. It, for one thing, tells us unprompted that he controls the Reapers. Also, he is pretty up-front about what he did, like he (and, by extension, the writer responsible) does not even realize how he is so hugely detracting Shepard from cooperating with him in good faith/trust. I men, it did not bother me because I got that he is a ruthlessly-efficient AI, but fans that expect AI to be more like EDI (who looks to be more the exception than the rule as it relates to ME AI) approach him the same as if he were organic. And as far as telling us about the Crucible, I can buy his explanation there too. AI are very competent about technical stuff, so the Crucible is right up its alley. And the fact that he did some morally repugnant stuff is not relevant here; the moral implications of this decision are left to Shepard's judgment, not the Catalyst's. I see no evidence that the Catalyst acted directly through the Reapers. I do not think he was actively pulling strings or micro-managing, more like something that gave them general direction. I mean, he evidently cannot even open the arms to the Citadel (his "home") to help his minions. They require someone like Saren to do that.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
1122
0
Nov 26, 2024 14:21:46 GMT
Deleted
0
Nov 26, 2024 14:21:46 GMT
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2016 15:45:46 GMT
... and that's the Krogan idea, isn't it? Tear everything down, start building something wonderful on it's own... without pulling anything forward from the past. See, the game introduced that thought as well... but I'm willing to bet that people here will dislike "destroy" being framed within the thought that it's what the Krogan had been doing for centuries. It's a catch 22 dilemma... no choice is ideal, no choice is universally "horrific" either, each represents, not one, but at least two directions of socio-political thoughts, each one was completely foreshadowed by earlier elements of the game, and no single one of them can or should be made canon. The krogan were destroying, sure, but not with the intention of saving anyone by doing so. Even so, I save the krogan, so your argument falls flat with me. Not asking you to "judge" the Krogan decision... just saying they are both "scorched earth" policies... that you outright destroy the past and start over fresh to go forward. The opposing viewpoint is that you build upon the past, both the good and bad in it. The Reapers, because the game indicates that they represent all the past knowledge of all the civilizations from previous cycles are, essentially, an archive. The choice - you retain the knowledge and lessons of the past and build from their (improving on the AIs that already exist) or you destroy them utterly and start over. By nuking their old civilizations repeatedly, the Krogan frame of mind is to destroy utterly and start over. A Krogan would pick destroy. (I find it somewhat ironic that people here so vehemently criticize the Krogan for nuking themselves and then so vehemently defend utterly destroying the only remain record of every past civilization in the galaxy.) A Shepard who perhaps believed that he himself (or her herself) had made progress towards solving the AI issue permanently (by the understandings he/she had instilled in EDI and Legion by simply talking with them... might be more inclined to believe the he/she could do the same with the Reapers (i.e. select Control to gain a foothold into their society and then work to bring about an improved understanding of organics while in control leading them)... or he/she might choose synthesis to make it all happen instantaneously through "space magic." Either way, a goal of preserving all that past knowledge is fulfilled rather than seeing it all lost and destroyed. When on Cronos, Shepard indicates that he/she doubts he/she would have been able to rebels against Cerberus had there been a control chip inserted or if he/she was merely an AI that thought it was Commander Shepard. That same line of thought is again introduced during the conversation with the Catalyst. TIM can't control the reapers in such a way that they would go against their original mandate because the reaper already control TIM... but Shepard can because they don't control him. So, he/she can take "command" and then bring about any future "he/she see's fit."
|
|
dmc1001
N7
Biotic Booty
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: ferroboy
Prime Posts: 77
Posts: 9,942 Likes: 17,687
inherit
Biotic Booty
1031
0
Nov 16, 2024 14:01:33 GMT
17,687
dmc1001
9,942
August 2016
dmc1001
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
ferroboy
77
|
Post by dmc1001 on Oct 4, 2016 16:30:07 GMT
You're not presenting me with information I don't know. We just have vastly different feelings about what we find acceptable. I've repeatedly stated that my viewpoint is mine and is separate from whatever intentions the writers may have had. I don't just play the game they wrote. I role play. I have yet to RP a Shepard who believes the Reapers deserve to survive. One Shepard thought Synthesis sounded good (and I can't argue with the results) but the rest have followed the mandate given them by Anderson and Hackett. They've also judged Control against TIM.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
1122
0
Nov 26, 2024 14:21:46 GMT
Deleted
0
Nov 26, 2024 14:21:46 GMT
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2016 16:49:04 GMT
You're not presenting me with information I don't know. We just have vastly different feelings about what we find acceptable. I've repeatedly stated that my viewpoint is mine and is separate from whatever intentions the writers may have had. I don't just play the game they wrote. I role play. I have yet to RP a Shepard who believes the Reapers deserve to survive. One Shepard thought Synthesis sounded good (and I can't argue with the results) but the rest have followed the mandate given them by Anderson and Hackett. They've also judged Control against TIM. I don't see that our feelings are so vastly different... I also have had many Sheps who have followed the mandate, etc. Perhaps it's all the absolutist phrasing that goes on around here that skews things. My ONLY point is that there are multiple, and bi-polar ways to interpret these endings... and ALL interpretations, even those that oppose each other, can have some basis in the little details that were presented earlier in the game.) So, I keep bringing up the little tidbits I see that counter all that absolutist talk going on around here. I would suggest that Destroy is NOT a completely "happy ending" deserving of a title of "happy ending" mod (it has some negative consequences). Synthesis does not deserves to be described as being portrayed ONLY as being the "perfect" ending (some negative consequences of that ending are described in the game) neither does Synthesis deserve to be descrbied as being portrayed ONLY as having horrific consequences (some positives to gene modification and tech oriented implants are also shown in the game). Furthermore, I would say that there are some characterizations of Shepard who logically would accept that the Catalyst is at least be describing the info dump as to what the choices are accurately. I would also suggest that the "as you see fit" used in the control ending means precisely that... after taking control Shepard can do with the Reapers as he/she sees fit... might be a good thing, might be a bad thing - depending on what Shepard decides to "see fit" doing.
|
|
dmc1001
N7
Biotic Booty
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: ferroboy
Prime Posts: 77
Posts: 9,942 Likes: 17,687
inherit
Biotic Booty
1031
0
Nov 16, 2024 14:01:33 GMT
17,687
dmc1001
9,942
August 2016
dmc1001
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
ferroboy
77
|
Post by dmc1001 on Oct 4, 2016 17:39:49 GMT
I get it. My Shepard doesn't want to be a Reaper - even a good one. Too much negativity associated with that form. Rather just see the galaxy rid of these monstrosities. It's a shame to lose the knowledge they possess but we'll manage. It just means we have to rediscover it for ourselves. My Shep's tend toward absolute hatred of Reapers and everything they represent. Only downside is the Leviathans being out there. It would be sort of cool if they turned up in ME:A - if that were a place they were hiding.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
1122
0
Nov 26, 2024 14:21:46 GMT
Deleted
0
Nov 26, 2024 14:21:46 GMT
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2016 17:51:20 GMT
I get it. My Shepard doesn't want to be a Reaper - even a good one. Too much negativity associated with that form. Rather just see the galaxy rid of these monstrosities. It's a shame to lose the knowledge they possess but we'll manage. It just means we have to rediscover it for ourselves. My Shep's tend toward absolute hatred of Reapers and everything they represent. Only downside is the Leviathans being out there. It would be sort of cool if they turned up in ME:A - if that were a place they were hiding. I'm torn on that... some days I think, yeah, that would be cool to encounter Leviathans outside the MW... and other days, I think I'd prefer the whole story line just end with the Trilogy (even though the endings are less than ideal). There's a little Krogan in me, I guess... just scorch the MW and move on with a fresh start.
|
|
dmc1001
N7
Biotic Booty
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: ferroboy
Prime Posts: 77
Posts: 9,942 Likes: 17,687
inherit
Biotic Booty
1031
0
Nov 16, 2024 14:01:33 GMT
17,687
dmc1001
9,942
August 2016
dmc1001
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
ferroboy
77
|
Post by dmc1001 on Oct 4, 2016 18:27:00 GMT
I guess I don't really want to see the Leviathans but remnants of their tech could be interesting. I'm assuming they continued to develop past when Harbinger came into existence (that is, when most of them died) but who really knows?
|
|