Gwyvian
N3
Writer, gamer, goth!
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: Gwyvian
PSN: Gwyvian
Posts: 955 Likes: 2,246
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2,246
Gwyvian
Writer, gamer, goth!
955
March 2017
gwyvian
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
Gwyvian
Gwyvian
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Post by Gwyvian on May 23, 2017 6:06:01 GMT
Hmm I like Sam but I'm still not sure how I would feel about being attached to an AI for the rest of my life. I mean I know sam is supposed to be different because he shares Ryder's life experiences but I'm introverted and just the feeling of knowing that I wasn't alone would scare the hell out of me :/. I just saw it over the weekend. This question has also bothered me a lot (also as an introvert with all kinds of totally weird and crazy things in my head) - but I realized that SAM doesn't actually read your thoughts... otherwise you wouldn't have to speak to him aloud, though that might be just a formality to make it easier to cope with this fact. He may be able to see memories, but I don't think that's on par with hearing thoughts - I may be wrong, but yeah. I think also in this situation you can adapt to it, you have an absolutely intimate bond with SAM which would be just as bad for him if it were a trust betrayed, but also SAM isn't judgmental at all, which may change how I'd look at it if it were me. (Plus there are a lot of scary situations, especially as the Pathfinder, where the last thing I would want to be is alone.) I sort of think of this almost more as the warder bond in Wheel of Time, you sense each other and know everything that happens to you physically (within reason), but it's not a joining of souls or anything, you remain separate entities.
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Onecrazymonkey1
"A person of any mental quality has ideas of his own. This is common sense." Franz Liszt
2,269
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onecrazymonkey1
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Onecrazymonkey1 on May 23, 2017 7:20:04 GMT
Hmm I like Sam but I'm still not sure how I would feel about being attached to an AI for the rest of my life. I mean I know sam is supposed to be different because he shares Ryder's life experiences but I'm introverted and just the feeling of knowing that I wasn't alone would scare the hell out of me :/. I just saw it over the weekend. This question has also bothered me a lot (also as an introvert with all kinds of totally weird and crazy things in my head) - but I realized that SAM doesn't actually read your thoughts... otherwise you wouldn't have to speak to him aloud, though that might be just a formality to make it easier to cope with this fact. He may be able to see memories, but I don't think that's on par with hearing thoughts - I may be wrong, but yeah. I think also in this situation you can adapt to it, you have an absolutely intimate bond with SAM which would be just as bad for him if it were a trust betrayed, but also SAM isn't judgmental at all, which may change how I'd look at it if it were me. (Plus there are a lot of scary situations, especially as the Pathfinder, where the last thing I would want to be is alone.) I sort of think of this almost more as the warder bond in Wheel of Time, you sense each other and know everything that happens to you physically (within reason), but it's not a joining of souls or anything, you remain separate entities. Alien covenant? I removed it because I don't like spoiling things for people even if it's minor and you can see it a mile away. So about Sam, It's not so much that I worry if he can read Ryder's thoughts, it's just a worry that he is there to begin with and has so much power over Ryder's body. I mean humans are completely capable of actions that don't benefit themselves, so if Sam is an AI that learns from his pathfinders memories and experiences, couldn't he be capable of self harm as well if he got free rein somehow? What if he had a painful experience that broke him? Now I do believe sam needs Ryder's permission for a lot (unless I'm remembering wrong) and I also doubt that Bioware wants to do a rehash of the original trilogy with evil AI, I would just rather not be so dependent on him. It's just the thought an AI is always lurking in the shadows of my mind that would wig me out to an extent. I think I'm like Drack in this case, and maybe a bit too much of a loner to ever get used to this if it happened to me. Meh, or maybe I need sleep so I stop thinking about genocidal AI.
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yeah rip
N3
Lost in bosom, consumed by abs.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2
Posts: 920 Likes: 3,213
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yeah rip
Lost in bosom, consumed by abs.
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January 2017
evilpenguin
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2
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Post by yeah rip on May 23, 2017 7:32:22 GMT
That Thane line Not that I would ever get it in any of my games though Also, "When no-one else competes for your eyes, I will be here" *fans self* Back to Jaal and Akksul - I don't think they ever hated each other, they may have had a rivalry thing going on, a la Sasuke and Naruto early on. Though I don't think they were ever "buddies" either. Jaal does feel bad for him about what he went through with the Kett, and I think he is understanding about his reasons for resenting the Resistance. He also admires Ryder's courage if s/he wants to reason with Akksul. And it's just my headcanon, but I don't think the whole martyrdom thing was the only reason Jaal didn't want to kill Akksul - he may have just felt genuine sympathy for the guy. My gods how much Sasuke irritated me. I agree with this read on Akksul and Jaal's relationship. I don't see them as enemies in that way at all, apart from the Roekaar being inherently a violent group that pits itself against aliens and against him for being a "traitor" - but Akksul is mostly careful to avoid going against other angara, he's not an "enemy" in that sense. Plus, the more I'm researching Akksul for fic reasons the more I get the impression that Jaal sees what I'm seeing, ...which I'm actually not going to share because... fic reasons. OK I totally walked into that. But yeah! I think they rubbed each other the wrong way, I can totally see a rivalry thing between them, as you say. Jaal doesn't even speak of him as an enemy that way, he only really gets riled up when Akksul potentially has Jaal's siblings' lives in his hands, which he doesn't trust for a second. It's a little live and let live until you push it kind of a thing, until suddenly Akksul kind of makes it personal by recruiting his family members. (I still wonder if he recruited them knowing they were Jaal's siblings or not.) Don't get me started on goddamn Sasuke lmao. And I'm a purist too, I just can't watch dubbed anime. I'm really late with this, oops. I'll get back on topic when I catch up, so I know what the actual topic is.
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Gwyvian
N3
Writer, gamer, goth!
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: Gwyvian
PSN: Gwyvian
Posts: 955 Likes: 2,246
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2,246
Gwyvian
Writer, gamer, goth!
955
March 2017
gwyvian
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
Gwyvian
Gwyvian
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Post by Gwyvian on May 23, 2017 7:52:08 GMT
I just saw it over the weekend. This question has also bothered me a lot (also as an introvert with all kinds of totally weird and crazy things in my head) - but I realized that SAM doesn't actually read your thoughts... otherwise you wouldn't have to speak to him aloud, though that might be just a formality to make it easier to cope with this fact. He may be able to see memories, but I don't think that's on par with hearing thoughts - I may be wrong, but yeah. I think also in this situation you can adapt to it, you have an absolutely intimate bond with SAM which would be just as bad for him if it were a trust betrayed, but also SAM isn't judgmental at all, which may change how I'd look at it if it were me. (Plus there are a lot of scary situations, especially as the Pathfinder, where the last thing I would want to be is alone.) I sort of think of this almost more as the warder bond in Wheel of Time, you sense each other and know everything that happens to you physically (within reason), but it's not a joining of souls or anything, you remain separate entities. Alien covenant? I removed it because I don't like spoiling things for people even if it's minor and you can see it a mile away. So about Sam, It's not so much that I worry if he can read Ryder's thoughts, it's just a worry that he is there to begin with and has so much power over Ryder's body. I mean humans are completely capable of actions that don't benefit themselves, so if Sam is an AI that learns from his pathfinders memories and experiences, couldn't he be capable of self harm as well, if he got free rein somehow? Now I do believe sam needs Ryder's permission for a lot (unless I'm remembering wrong) and I also doubt that Bioware wants to do a rehash of the original trilogy with evil AI, I would just rather not be so dependent on him. I just think the thought that an AI is always lurking in the shadows of my mind would still wig me out to an extent. I think I'm like Drack in this case, and maybe a bit too much of a loner to ever get used to this if it happened to me. Meh, or maybe I need sleep so I stop thinking about genocidal AI. Yep. My lips are sealed, hahaha. But yes - a mile... or more. The one thing I truly loved about that movie was Michael Fassbender's performance because he is just phenomenal. That's the thing, though... SAM is an individual entity, he is therefore not influenced the same way as Ryder is from her/his first person point of view, if that makes sense. It's like you playing the game - you see everything Sara sees, you live her experiences, you even participate and maybe even merge with the character (hell, you even have control over her physically! ) but your instincts of self-preservation, your individuality's processing of her experiences differs from her in many fundamental ways. Also, the same way you never step into the same water in a river because it's physically impossible, I think two souls in identical situations cannot, by definition, be entirely the same, so SAM's viewpoint and Sara's may always be in rough agreement, but not necessarily total agreement on all possible levels of interpretation - yet both are influenced by one another, very strongly. Then there's the self-perseveration instinct; SAM has emotions vicariously through the Pathfinder, but he is still an evolving AI entity, i.e. there is absolutely no reason he would ever want to stop learning and experiencing through one... but even so, I believe it should also be taken into consideration that an AI is very much like a totally different species to humans. Sure, a human may have built SAM, but there are fundamental traits of being an AI that no human could possibly comprehend, thus I think an AI's "read" on emotions like suicidal thoughts may not "compute" if that makes sense? Not unless there is considerable, prolonged strain placed on it and also provided that it is advanced enough to process its own emotions, i.e. the angaran AI was clearly suicidal, but considering its isolation for who knows how long, cut off from its makers (BTW!! I just did that quest and it strikes me as very odd that it looked at the angara and said something like "you are not my creators".............. is that thing really angaran, or is it a creation of the Jardaan? Or maybe even the Jardaan's enemies?), but then that AI was not intrinsically linked to an organic being. One last thought on it: when linked to an AI in the fashion SAM is to the Pathfinder, it can be assumed that you not only share memories, but you also provide a framework of existence to teach the AI, just like you raise your children with stories and legends that shape their identity quite as much as society and their personal experiences shapes them, your decisions, your "moral compass" in each situation is also passed on. The AI can reject it, but as a logical and totally objective being, it has no reason to at this stage of development. The process is eminently observable in its later stages with EDI - she frequently turns to you with some very quintessential questions about existence and your answers definitely have an impact; she can and does cherry pick it based on her preferences, but she was programmed with a fundamental set of morals that have always guided her, beyond which she chooses Shepard as a role model of sorts. As for genocidal AI... I have to say, again it's about the raising of that particular child I think. Person of Interest comes to mind as a realistic example of what modern AI technology could potentially offer, more importantly: the inherent dangers and issues that come with a true AI. In that example there are previous iterations of the existing AI shown which are clearly fundamentally evil, i.e. trying to kill its creator, but what finally solves the problem is not a programming trick or by convincing it, it was by recreating it at a simplified level where it had to be taught the differences between right and wrong, as humans see them... it was shackled, it possessed no emotions (including homicidal tendencies) and other limitations were placed on it; in short, it was created as a child taught by a parent. So, in that sense, I wouldn't be afraid of a SAM type AI in your head because in his state of development, from everything I've seen so far, he is much closer to that archetype than to a "fully grown" AI created for some sundry, menial purpose. Experience, and how it is gained, through whom it is gained, is a building block of SAM's character in so, so many ways, being vulnerable to him is forced on you, yes, but when it comes down to it, if you trust yourself, you can most likely trust SAM, too, because he's shaped by who you are. I just made a huge pro-AI manifesto didn't I.
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PenDev0us
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 643 Likes: 994
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pendev0us
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by PenDev0us on May 23, 2017 9:28:40 GMT
OHGOD I GO TO SLEEP AND THEN THERE IS SO MUCH TO CATCH UP ON :sob: I'll reply to a few then start fresh~ Plus, he suddenly has a past life where he was a prominent member of angaran society, and was a woman when no one knew that figure was a woman in the first place. His head is probably spinning. I'm going to put it on my massive to-do list, so hopefully I can get to it in June, once I finish a couple real big, exciting things. Honestly, during this quest I always feel extremely guilty for everything Ryder put poor Taavos through. He isn't nearly mad enough, all things considered. And, yeah, "we just wanted to ask about your past life's expert opinion about some Remnant stuff so we went and KILLED OFF YOUR ENTIRE SQUAD (granted, they shot first, but still), now have a good day". He should at least get to punch Ryder, and I would definitely let him I feel really bad now because I cant for the life of me remember who/where Taavos' squad was Thanks!!!! xxxx I spent aaages on her, then completely forgot Scott was a thing!
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Obliviousmiss
I'm always wearing pajamas. It doesn't mean I get enough sleep.
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August 2016
obliviousmiss
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age Inquistion
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Post by Obliviousmiss on May 23, 2017 9:37:40 GMT
As I struggle to adjust from parenting one child to two, and going back to work next week, I've made a tough decision. I don't have time to actively post and navigate this forum any longer. I don't even have time to game. The Jaal thread was there when I needed it most... Through the health problems and bedrest of my pregnancy, through the MEA anticipation, and many friends were made. Please still tag me in your wonderful stories! I may lurk from time to time, and I enjoy reading fanfiction in a candlelit relaxing bath (whenever I can get a chance!) But I believe spending less time on this forum will help me try to get my crap together and survive two kids while my husband graduates and searches for a job. It's just a stressful time of life right now, and cutting the excess is just the logical thing to do. Love you all so, so much. I'll be around. ❤️❤️❤️
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Post by beholderess on May 23, 2017 9:43:38 GMT
Alien covenant? I removed it because I don't like spoiling things for people even if it's minor and you can see it a mile away. So about Sam, It's not so much that I worry if he can read Ryder's thoughts, it's just a worry that he is there to begin with and has so much power over Ryder's body. I mean humans are completely capable of actions that don't benefit themselves, so if Sam is an AI that learns from his pathfinders memories and experiences, couldn't he be capable of self harm as well, if he got free rein somehow? Now I do believe sam needs Ryder's permission for a lot (unless I'm remembering wrong) and I also doubt that Bioware wants to do a rehash of the original trilogy with evil AI, I would just rather not be so dependent on him. I just think the thought that an AI is always lurking in the shadows of my mind would still wig me out to an extent. I think I'm like Drack in this case, and maybe a bit too much of a loner to ever get used to this if it happened to me. Meh, or maybe I need sleep so I stop thinking about genocidal AI. Yep. My lips are sealed, hahaha. But yes - a mile... or more. The one thing I truly loved about that movie was Michael Fassbender's performance because he is just phenomenal. That's the thing, though... SAM is an individual entity, he is therefore not influenced the same way as Ryder is from her/his first person point of view, if that makes sense. It's like you playing the game - you see everything Sara sees, you live her experiences, you even participate and maybe even merge with the character (hell, you even have control over her physically! ) but your instincts of self-preservation, your individuality's processing of her experiences differs from her in many fundamental ways. Also, the same way you never step into the same water in a river because it's physically impossible, I think two souls in identical situations cannot, by definition, be entirely the same, so SAM's viewpoint and Sara's may always be in rough agreement, but not necessarily total agreement on all possible levels of interpretation - yet both are influenced by one another, very strongly. Then there's the self-perseveration instinct; SAM has emotions vicariously through the Pathfinder, but he is still an evolving AI entity, i.e. there is absolutely no reason he would ever want to stop learning and experiencing through one... but even so, I believe it should also be taken into consideration that an AI is very much like a totally different species to humans. Sure, a human may have built SAM, but there are fundamental traits of being an AI that no human could possibly comprehend, thus I think an AI's "read" on emotions like suicidal thoughts may not "compute" if that makes sense? Not unless there is considerable, prolonged strain placed on it and also provided that it is advanced enough to process its own emotions, i.e. the angaran AI was clearly suicidal, but considering its isolation for who knows how long, cut off from its makers (BTW!! I just did that quest and it strikes me as very odd that it looked at the angara and said something like "you are not my creators".............. is that thing really angaran, or is it a creation of the Jardaan? Or maybe even the Jardaan's enemies?), but then that AI was not intrinsically linked to an organic being. One last thought on it: when linked to an AI in the fashion SAM is to the Pathfinder, it can be assumed that you not only share memories, but you also provide a framework of existence to teach the AI, just like you raise your children with stories and legends that shape their identity quite as much as society and their personal experiences shapes them, your decisions, your "moral compass" in each situation is also passed on. The AI can reject it, but as a logical and totally objective being, it has no reason to at this stage of development. The process is eminently observable in its later stages with EDI - she frequently turns to you with some very quintessential questions about existence and your answers definitely have an impact; she can and does cherry pick it based on her preferences, but she was programmed with a fundamental set of morals that have always guided her, beyond which she chooses Shepard as a role model of sorts. As for genocidal AI... I have to say, again it's about the raising of that particular child I think. Person of Interest comes to mind as a realistic example of what modern AI technology could potentially offer, more importantly: the inherent dangers and issues that come with a true AI. In that example there are previous iterations of the existing AI shown which are clearly fundamentally evil, i.e. trying to kill its creator, but what finally solves the problem is not a programming trick or by convincing it, it was by recreating it at a simplified level where it had to be taught the differences between right and wrong, as humans see them... it was shackled, it possessed no emotions (including homicidal tendencies) and other limitations were placed on it; in short, it was created as a child taught by a parent. So, in that sense, I wouldn't be afraid of a SAM type AI in your head because in his state of development, from everything I've seen so far, he is much closer to that archetype than to a "fully grown" AI created for some sundry, menial purpose. Experience, and how it is gained, through whom it is gained, is a building block of SAM's character in so, so many ways, being vulnerable to him is forced on you, yes, but when it comes down to it, if you trust yourself, you can most likely trust SAM, too, because he's shaped by who you are. I just made a huge pro-AI manifesto didn't I. I think that a lot of problems with AI in MET were due to the fact that said AI was not "raised right", so to speak. Heck, geth were created accidentally and were fired upon the moment they gained awareness.
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PenDev0us
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 643 Likes: 994
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May 15, 2017 16:49:54 GMT
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May 12, 2017 12:24:23 GMT
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pendev0us
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by PenDev0us on May 23, 2017 10:07:50 GMT
Previously on worst Pathfiner ever:- Ignored Scotts busted cryo pod - Abandoned the survivors at Habitat 7, leaving Greer to be cut open by the Kett - Not bothered to scout ahead like a recon specialist should, causing Papa Ryder to get mad - Baited Tann, then ignored Kesh/Addison/Kandros and went straight to Eos - Pushed Peebs off me when straddled, barrelrolling ensues. - Met Drack in the Kett facility, said I'm with the Initiative, he grabbed my collar and asked who I was again. - Didn't jump down the well first, Ryder shouted at Peebs when she jumped, then jumped down herself. (Cora was again the last one to jump) - Didn't explore the Remnant Vault, just gunned it to all the quest markers, got blocked by a door and Peebs said we need to scan stuff if we want to get anywhere. - Said the Vault was dangerous after running from the purification field, Peebs was put out, and said why don't you focus on the cool stuff that happened instead. - Was reluctant to let Peebs on board the Tempest and claimed she was more of a solo player, Peebs said the Tempest is her best bet for figuring out the Remnant, and it would benefit me too. - Chose to side with the Initiative when talking to Drack near the outpost station, he commented on how it would have just triggered another uprising. - Chose a military outpost, on Eos, Ryder commented on how we will defend against the Kett and anything else. Lt. Sajax prefers this choice. - Called out Addison for being two-faced on Eos, Addisons rejected handshake was... awkward. - Called Addison manipulative, her tone of voice seemed subdued. I think I upset her. - Was arrogant to Tann, "yes I am a hero" & "you don't know me", Tann wasn't phased and said he does know me. (damn) - Sided with Tann in front of Kesh/Kandros when they questioned his leadership, Tann just said, "told you we were of the same mind". (fack) - Said "I'm not looking for permission" (I know, its a casual response, but it fit!), Tann likes me more. (sonova-) Starting to think I'm gunna charm the pants off of Tann. ¬_¬' - Spoke to Suvi, said the scourge wasn't beautiful, just dangerous, came out harsher than intended. - Suvi mentioned God, I said it was't possible, then told her believe whatever its cool. (Glad they didn't bash religion and kept it civil) - All other crew talks didn't have change worth noting, or there wasn't a professional option available. - Was professional while talking to the Archon, he commented how I will "come with him", and "It's beyond my realm of understanding". - Was professional while being escorted to the Aya landing pad, still no clue what they said, but they didn't laugh. - Was professional to Jaal by saying I want to exchange knowledge, Jaal is pleased with my honesty. - Was professional to Efra, I always chose that anyway because I like the "I feel for your people" line. - Said I didn't need the Moshae, Efra said it's not that easy. - Said welcome aboard to Jaal, awkward handshake ensues. (thinking the thanks for trusting would have been more relevant this PT) - Jaal on board ship. I said no bigots, Jaal was funny, stuttering about how everything is alien right down to the living quarters. And now for the codex entries of note: Crisis on Habitat 7 Eos: The First Outpost Ongoing Psychological Profile: Pathfinder Ryder The Ties That Bind OK THAT GOT LONG BUT YOU'RE ALL UPDATED NOW!
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PenDev0us
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 643 Likes: 994
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May 15, 2017 16:49:54 GMT
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pendev0us
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by PenDev0us on May 23, 2017 10:13:41 GMT
I think that a lot of problems with AI in MET were due to the fact that said AI was not "raised right", so to speak. Heck, geth were created accidentally and were fired upon the moment they gained awareness. I always saw the Geth as bad by consequence not by design... then Legion proved it with his history of the Geth/Quarian war. Hell, I even felt bad for the heretics, and was iffy about re-writing them... but the heretics had reaper code, so they were technically as bad as husks... so to be the only ones able to be saved from that... yeah... my poor babies :sob: Blame the parents not the child!
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Post by beholderess on May 23, 2017 10:37:24 GMT
I think that a lot of problems with AI in MET were due to the fact that said AI was not "raised right", so to speak. Heck, geth were created accidentally and were fired upon the moment they gained awareness. I always saw the Geth as bad by consequence not by design... then Legion proved it with his history of the Geth/Quarian war. Hell, I even felt bad for the heretics, and was iffy about re-writing them... but the heretics had reaper code, so they were technically as bad as husks... so to be the only ones able to be saved from that... yeah... my poor babies :sob: Blame the parents not the child! Well, the geth were a "bad design" in that they gained awareness by accident, which really makes their situation even more difficult than that of a typical AI. A normal AI would be provided with at least some framework to understand their situation, and the geth had literally nothing - not just no answer to their questions, but not even any indication that there are questions to ask. That they were able to go as far as they did - that's an achievement. The other rogue AIs in MET did not seem to have much reason for existing except that someone wanted an AI. Without much thought as to what to do with them in the future. By contrast, EDI and SAM were given a framework, they knew how they were designed and why, they had a purpose that they knew and enjoyed. EDI's purpose was to be the Normandy, to be the best freaking ship, and of course harming her crew did not enter her equations - this is not what a ship does. SAM is built to look after Ryder family and to guide the Pathfinder - in that order. Ryder's goals ARE his, in a very deep sense of the word. Speaking of SAM - the way he says "I failed" while he describes Ellen's death (while his memories of her survival are still blocked) is heartbreaking, and it is a testament of his resilience that he did not go rogue and tried to reanimate Ellen as a huskified corpse or something there and then To fail at your life's purpose - that has to be a hard blow for the AI.
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PenDev0us
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 643 Likes: 994
inherit
8370
0
May 15, 2017 16:49:54 GMT
994
PenDev0us
643
May 12, 2017 12:24:23 GMT
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pendev0us
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by PenDev0us on May 23, 2017 11:01:54 GMT
I always saw the Geth as bad by consequence not by design... then Legion proved it with his history of the Geth/Quarian war. Hell, I even felt bad for the heretics, and was iffy about re-writing them... but the heretics had reaper code, so they were technically as bad as husks... so to be the only ones able to be saved from that... yeah... my poor babies :sob: Blame the parents not the child! Well, the geth were a "bad design" in that they gained awareness by accident, which really makes their situation even more difficult than that of a typical AI. A normal AI would be provided with at least some framework to understand their situation, and the geth had literally nothing - not just no answer to their questions, but not even any indication that there are questions to ask. That they were able to go as far as they did - that's an achievement. The other rogue AIs in MET did not seem to have much reason for existing except that someone wanted an AI. Without much thought as to what to do with them in the future. By contrast, EDI and SAM were given a framework, they knew how they were designed and why, they had a purpose that they knew and enjoyed. EDI's purpose was to be the Normandy, to be the best freaking ship, and of course harming her crew did not enter her equations - this is not what a ship does. SAM is built to look after Ryder family and to guide the Pathfinder - in that order. Ryder's goals ARE his, in a very deep sense of the word. Speaking of SAM - the way he says "I failed" while he describes Ellen's death (while his memories of her survival are still blocked) is heartbreaking, and it is a testament of his resilience that he did not go rogue and tried to reanimate Ellen as a huskified corpse or something there and then To fail at your life's purpose - that has to be a hard blow for the AI. Always wondered how an AI would react to failing its MO... I mean, at the time, SAM had no emotions, just a basic understanding of them... A human would be crushed... As for being bad by consequence over design I meant it in the sense that they weren't built with the intent to be bad it just kinda happened after too many upgrades, and after that all important question As with SAM sharing Ryders goals... I really hope that doesn't backfire like an, 'I can complete Ryders goal without endangering Ryder, LETS BLOW UP A PLANET' kinda deal... I mean, he shares Ryders sentiments, so that's pretty much impossible... unless he gets a crappy Pathfinder. Full renegade Shep paired with SAM would have seen more than the Batarian home system destroyed in the name of preservation :D8:
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Post by PenDev0us on May 23, 2017 11:10:38 GMT
Previously on worst Pathfiner ever:- Ignored Scotts busted cryo pod, Cora updated me on his status in the tram. - Abandoned the survivors at Habitat 7, leaving Greer to be cut open by the Kett. - Didn't bother to scout ahead like a recon specialist should, causing Papa Ryder to get mad. - Baited Tann, then ignored Kesh/Addison/Kandros and went straight to Eos. - Pushed Peebs off me when straddled, barrelrolling ensues. - Met Drack in the Kett facility, said I'm with the Initiative, he grabbed my collar and asked who I was again. - Didn't jump down the well first, Ryder shouted at Peebs when she jumped, then jumped down herself. (Cora was again the last one to jump) - Didn't explore the Remnant Vault, just gunned it to all the quest markers, got blocked by a door and Peebs said we need to scan stuff if we want to get anywhere. - Said the Vault was dangerous after running from the purification field, Peebs was put out, and said why don't you focus on the cool stuff that happened instead. - Was reluctant to let Peebs on board the Tempest and claimed she was more of a solo player, Peebs said the Tempest is her best bet for figuring out the Remnant, and it would benefit me too. - Chose to side with the Initiative when talking to Drack near the outpost station, he commented on how it would have just triggered another uprising. - Chose a military outpost, on Eos, Ryder commented on how we will defend against the Kett and anything else. Lt. Sajax prefers this choice. - Called out Addison for being two-faced on Eos, Addisons rejected handshake was... awkward. - Called Addison manipulative, her tone of voice seemed subdued. I think I upset her. - Was arrogant to Tann, "yes I am a hero" & "you don't know me", Tann wasn't phased and said he does know me. (damn) - Sided with Tann in front of Kesh/Kandros when they questioned his leadership, Tann just said, "told you we were of the same mind". (fack) - Said "I'm not looking for permission" (I know, its a casual response, but it fit!), Tann likes me more. (sonova-) - Spoke to Suvi, said the scourge wasn't beautiful, just dangerous, came out harsher than intended. - Suvi mentioned God, I said it was't possible, then told her believe whatever its cool. (Glad they didn't bash religion and kept it civil) - All other crew talks didn't have change worth noting, or there wasn't a professional option available. - Was professional while talking to the Archon, he commented how I will "come with him", and "It's beyond my realm of understanding". - Was professional while being escorted to the Aya landing pad, still no clue what they said, but they didn't laugh. - Was professional to Jaal by saying I want to exchange knowledge, Jaal is pleased with my honesty. - Was professional to Efra, I always chose that anyway because I like the "I feel for your people" line. - Said I didn't need the Moshae, Efra said it's not that easy. - Said welcome aboard to Jaal, awkward handshake ensues. (thinking the thanks for trusting would have been more relevant this PT) - Jaal on board ship. I said no bigots, Jaal was funny, stuttering about how everything is alien right down to the living quarters.
Codex entries: Crisis on Habitat 7 Eos: The First Outpost Ongoing Psychological Profile: Pathfinder Ryder The Ties That Bind A quick update for my shenanigans on Voeld: - Was logical to Voeld HQ Commander (forgot to note her name) she said "we'll see, actions speak louder than words" - Said I want to kill Kett to the Angaran scouts just outside HQ (trying to avoid saying I want to help the Angara as much as possible, because I want to see what effect this has with Akksul in Jaals LM and any chats with Evfra) - Called out Skeot for trusting me so quickly, his response "you got me, I was hoping flattery would make you help rescue my uncle", then Jaal said "you dont need to trick Ryder" - Said I'd consider finding his uncle, Skeot was upset, he kept stuttering saying "but you- I thought- wouldn't you want someone to save your family if it was you?" (I'm thinking of leaving his uncle if possible... for science...) edit: Turns out this is a priority mission so I can't skip it. I'll see if I can fudge it in some way... Man this playthrough is going to be a punch to my heart and morals
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Post by beholderess on May 23, 2017 11:29:01 GMT
Well, the geth were a "bad design" in that they gained awareness by accident, which really makes their situation even more difficult than that of a typical AI. A normal AI would be provided with at least some framework to understand their situation, and the geth had literally nothing - not just no answer to their questions, but not even any indication that there are questions to ask. That they were able to go as far as they did - that's an achievement. The other rogue AIs in MET did not seem to have much reason for existing except that someone wanted an AI. Without much thought as to what to do with them in the future. By contrast, EDI and SAM were given a framework, they knew how they were designed and why, they had a purpose that they knew and enjoyed. EDI's purpose was to be the Normandy, to be the best freaking ship, and of course harming her crew did not enter her equations - this is not what a ship does. SAM is built to look after Ryder family and to guide the Pathfinder - in that order. Ryder's goals ARE his, in a very deep sense of the word. Speaking of SAM - the way he says "I failed" while he describes Ellen's death (while his memories of her survival are still blocked) is heartbreaking, and it is a testament of his resilience that he did not go rogue and tried to reanimate Ellen as a huskified corpse or something there and then To fail at your life's purpose - that has to be a hard blow for the AI. Always wondered how an AI would react to failing its MO... I mean, at the time, SAM had no emotions, just a basic understanding of them... A human would be crushed... As for being bad by consequence over design I meant it in the sense that they weren't built with the intent to be bad it just kinda happened after too many upgrades, and after that all important question As with SAM sharing Ryders goals... I really hope that doesn't backfire like an, 'I can complete Ryders goal without endangering Ryder, LETS BLOW UP A PLANET' kinda deal... I mean, he shares Ryders sentiments, so that's pretty much impossible... unless he gets a crappy Pathfinder.
Full renegade Shep paired with SAM would have seen more than the Batarian home system destroyed in the name of preservation :D8: At that time, he wasn't fully developed emotionally, but by the time he recounts to to Ryder, he certainly was Damn, Alec, show some consideration for your AI! Yes, that's what I've mean by sharing goals. Not in a typical "evil AI" "I have an objective, let's take the most logical route to it even if it destroys humanity" way, but in sharing the goals - and constraints on said goals - as Ryder understands them. That is, without blowing up the planets. I do wonder about the extent a SAM is able to disagree with their Pathfinder, though. As far as I understand, a SAM can't help but be influenced by the moral code of their first/most active Pathfinder, but what if SAM gets a different one after that? Say, we do get a Pathfinder who is willing to blow up the planets - would SAM interfere?
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Post by beholderess on May 23, 2017 11:31:48 GMT
Previously on worst Pathfiner ever:- Ignored Scotts busted cryo pod, Cora updated me on his status in the tram. - Abandoned the survivors at Habitat 7, leaving Greer to be cut open by the Kett. - Didn't bother to scout ahead like a recon specialist should, causing Papa Ryder to get mad. - Baited Tann, then ignored Kesh/Addison/Kandros and went straight to Eos. - Pushed Peebs off me when straddled, barrelrolling ensues. - Met Drack in the Kett facility, said I'm with the Initiative, he grabbed my collar and asked who I was again. - Didn't jump down the well first, Ryder shouted at Peebs when she jumped, then jumped down herself. (Cora was again the last one to jump) - Didn't explore the Remnant Vault, just gunned it to all the quest markers, got blocked by a door and Peebs said we need to scan stuff if we want to get anywhere. - Said the Vault was dangerous after running from the purification field, Peebs was put out, and said why don't you focus on the cool stuff that happened instead. - Was reluctant to let Peebs on board the Tempest and claimed she was more of a solo player, Peebs said the Tempest is her best bet for figuring out the Remnant, and it would benefit me too. - Chose to side with the Initiative when talking to Drack near the outpost station, he commented on how it would have just triggered another uprising. - Chose a military outpost, on Eos, Ryder commented on how we will defend against the Kett and anything else. Lt. Sajax prefers this choice. - Called out Addison for being two-faced on Eos, Addisons rejected handshake was... awkward. - Called Addison manipulative, her tone of voice seemed subdued. I think I upset her. - Was arrogant to Tann, "yes I am a hero" & "you don't know me", Tann wasn't phased and said he does know me. (damn) - Sided with Tann in front of Kesh/Kandros when they questioned his leadership, Tann just said, "told you we were of the same mind". (fack) - Said "I'm not looking for permission" (I know, its a casual response, but it fit!), Tann likes me more. (sonova-) - Spoke to Suvi, said the scourge wasn't beautiful, just dangerous, came out harsher than intended. - Suvi mentioned God, I said it was't possible, then told her believe whatever its cool. (Glad they didn't bash religion and kept it civil) - All other crew talks didn't have change worth noting, or there wasn't a professional option available. - Was professional while talking to the Archon, he commented how I will "come with him", and "It's beyond my realm of understanding". - Was professional while being escorted to the Aya landing pad, still no clue what they said, but they didn't laugh. - Was professional to Jaal by saying I want to exchange knowledge, Jaal is pleased with my honesty. - Was professional to Efra, I always chose that anyway because I like the "I feel for your people" line. - Said I didn't need the Moshae, Efra said it's not that easy. - Said welcome aboard to Jaal, awkward handshake ensues. (thinking the thanks for trusting would have been more relevant this PT) - Jaal on board ship. I said no bigots, Jaal was funny, stuttering about how everything is alien right down to the living quarters.
Codex entries: Crisis on Habitat 7 Eos: The First Outpost Ongoing Psychological Profile: Pathfinder Ryder The Ties That Bind A quick update for my shenanigans on Voeld: - Was logical to Voeld HQ Commander (forgot to note her name) she said "we'll see, actions speak louder than words" - Said I want to kill Kett to the Angaran scouts just outside HQ (trying to avoid saying I want to help the Angara as much as possible, because I want to see what effect this has with Akksul in Jaals LM and any chats with Evfra) - Called out Skeot for trusting me so quickly, his response "you got me, I was hoping flattery would make you help rescue my uncle", then Jaal said "you dont need to trick Ryder" - Said I'd consider finding his uncle, Skeot was upset, he kept stuttering saying "but you- I thought- wouldn't you want someone to save your family if it was you?" (I'm thinking of leaving his uncle if possible... for science...) edit: Turns out this is a priority mission so I can't skip it. I'll see if I can fudge it in some way... Man this playthrough is going to be a punch to my heart and morals Daaaaamn. Must the Angara always be so damn likable?
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Post by yeah rip on May 23, 2017 12:10:35 GMT
I'm so sick of my thesis work, I have to come to the lab for the experimental part for 20 days straight and I hate it here. I used to really like my topic, but my school just made me so sick of it. I even can't stand my supervisor anymore, though I actually like him well enough, but right now I just hate everything about my school and my thesis :sob: To be fair, he's probably sick of me too ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ On topic of SAM, it doesn't bother me much. I'm usually pretty "conservative" on the whole human augmentation/cyborg thing (ironically, Deus Ex games are some of my favourite games ever), but it doesn't bother me much in MEA, for some reason. I'm an introvert too, but I don't mind SAM much, he just keeps to himself unless Ryder calls him or he has something important to say. And since he's not like organics, I don't need to worry about him learning my secrets and gossiping about me with others or anything like that. Obliviousmiss Do whatever is best for your family! And good luck with the kiddos Visit us sometime, if you have a chance
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Post by PenDev0us on May 23, 2017 12:34:50 GMT
Daaaaamn. Must the Angara always be so damn likable? IKR! The second he started blubbering I felt like the worst asshole in the galaxy! :sob:
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Post by PenDev0us on May 23, 2017 12:37:36 GMT
I'm so sick of my thesis work, I have to come to the lab for the experimental part for 20 days straight and I hate it here. I used to really like my topic, but my school just made me so sick of it. I even can't stand my supervisor anymore, though I actually like him well enough, but right now I just hate everything about my school and my thesis :sob: To be fair, he's probably sick of me too ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ On topic of SAM, it doesn't bother me much. I'm usually pretty "conservative" on the whole human augmentation/cyborg thing (ironically, Deus Ex games are some of my favourite games ever), but it doesn't bother me much in MEA, for some reason. I'm an introvert too, but I don't mind SAM much, he just keeps to himself unless Ryder calls him or he has something important to say. And since he's not like organics, I don't need to worry about him learning my secrets and gossiping about me with others or anything like that. Obliviousmiss Do whatever is best for your family! And good luck with the kiddos Visit us sometime, if you have a chance Yeah SAM doesn't seem the type to be judgemental or a gossip, Its nice~ Now EDI on the other hand... side note: I swear all AIs have the best delivery for sarcastic/dark humour
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Post by PenDev0us on May 23, 2017 12:42:28 GMT
Always wondered how an AI would react to failing its MO... I mean, at the time, SAM had no emotions, just a basic understanding of them... A human would be crushed... As for being bad by consequence over design I meant it in the sense that they weren't built with the intent to be bad it just kinda happened after too many upgrades, and after that all important question As with SAM sharing Ryders goals... I really hope that doesn't backfire like an, 'I can complete Ryders goal without endangering Ryder, LETS BLOW UP A PLANET' kinda deal... I mean, he shares Ryders sentiments, so that's pretty much impossible... unless he gets a crappy Pathfinder.
Full renegade Shep paired with SAM would have seen more than the Batarian home system destroyed in the name of preservation :D8: At that time, he wasn't fully developed emotionally, but by the time he recounts to to Ryder, he certainly was Damn, Alec, show some consideration for your AI! Yes, that's what I've mean by sharing goals. Not in a typical "evil AI" "I have an objective, let's take the most logical route to it even if it destroys humanity" way, but in sharing the goals - and constraints on said goals - as Ryder understands them. That is, without blowing up the planets. I do wonder about the extent a SAM is able to disagree with their Pathfinder, though. As far as I understand, a SAM can't help but be influenced by the moral code of their first/most active Pathfinder, but what if SAM gets a different one after that? Say, we do get a Pathfinder who is willing to blow up the planets - would SAM interfere? I hope he would interfere, but that makes you question how far he'd go. If he gets a REALLY despicable pathfinder that's clearly going to make a horrific choice... would he kill them? And if so, I wonder how the organic species would take that... would SAM be heralded a hero? Or would he be seen as 'too dangerous' and shut down?
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2017 14:28:06 GMT
What a depressing day to wake up to... this world is horrible...
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Post by PenDev0us on May 23, 2017 15:09:02 GMT
What a depressing day to wake up to... this world is horrible... whats up? you good? Or is it the news? Shit kicked up on the BBC today... Is that what you're talking about?
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2017 15:12:21 GMT
What a depressing day to wake up to... this world is horrible... whats up? you good? Or is it the news? Shit kicked up on the BBC today... Is that what you're talking about? Yeah the shooting. Awful!
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Post by PenDev0us on May 23, 2017 15:25:47 GMT
whats up? you good? Or is it the news? Shit kicked up on the BBC today... Is that what you're talking about? Yeah the shooting. Awful! Yeah I heard about it on the bus this morning, wound up watching news clips on my mobile... absolutely sucks, I don't even know what to say. I'm in London, and the last thing we had here was that parliament attack, yet victim wise, Manchester was horrific in comparison.
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2017 15:28:54 GMT
Yeah the shooting. Awful! Yeah I heard about it on the bus this morning, wound up watching news clips on my mobile... absolutely sucks, I don't even know what to say. I'm in London, and the last thing we had here was that parliament attack, yet victim wise, Manchester was horrific in comparison. I know... those poor children... if that guy wasn't already dead, I'd want him strung up so the parents could get at him and give him a slow, painful death. *ahem* alright back to happy Jaal thoughts, and stay safe!
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Post by beholderess on May 23, 2017 16:05:02 GMT
At that time, he wasn't fully developed emotionally, but by the time he recounts to to Ryder, he certainly was Damn, Alec, show some consideration for your AI! Yes, that's what I've mean by sharing goals. Not in a typical "evil AI" "I have an objective, let's take the most logical route to it even if it destroys humanity" way, but in sharing the goals - and constraints on said goals - as Ryder understands them. That is, without blowing up the planets. I do wonder about the extent a SAM is able to disagree with their Pathfinder, though. As far as I understand, a SAM can't help but be influenced by the moral code of their first/most active Pathfinder, but what if SAM gets a different one after that? Say, we do get a Pathfinder who is willing to blow up the planets - would SAM interfere? I hope he would interfere, but that makes you question how far he'd go. If he gets a REALLY despicable pathfinder that's clearly going to make a horrific choice... would he kill them? And if so, I wonder how the organic species would take that... would SAM be heralded a hero? Or would he be seen as 'too dangerous' and shut down? Sarissa's SAM did not hold leaving previous Pathfinder against her, but a) they haven't been partners for long and it could be justified. Now imagine if, for the purposes of thought experiment, Cora turned evil and decided to off Ryder in order to get the position - somehow I doubt that SAM would let that slide. Als, I wonder if different SAMs will end up developing in different directions, and how noticeable it would become. Ryder's SAM definitely developed affection and way too much sarcasm - will Salarian SAM become plotting, Turian SAM think like a Spectre, and so on?
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Post by Onecrazymonkey1 on May 23, 2017 16:32:21 GMT
Alien covenant? I removed it because I don't like spoiling things for people even if it's minor and you can see it a mile away. So about Sam, It's not so much that I worry if he can read Ryder's thoughts, it's just a worry that he is there to begin with and has so much power over Ryder's body. I mean humans are completely capable of actions that don't benefit themselves, so if Sam is an AI that learns from his pathfinders memories and experiences, couldn't he be capable of self harm as well, if he got free rein somehow? Now I do believe sam needs Ryder's permission for a lot (unless I'm remembering wrong) and I also doubt that Bioware wants to do a rehash of the original trilogy with evil AI, I would just rather not be so dependent on him. I just think the thought that an AI is always lurking in the shadows of my mind would still wig me out to an extent. I think I'm like Drack in this case, and maybe a bit too much of a loner to ever get used to this if it happened to me. Meh, or maybe I need sleep so I stop thinking about genocidal AI. Yep. My lips are sealed, hahaha. But yes - a mile... or more. The one thing I truly loved about that movie was Michael Fassbender's performance because he is just phenomenal. That's the thing, though... SAM is an individual entity, he is therefore not influenced the same way as Ryder is from her/his first person point of view, if that makes sense. It's like you playing the game - you see everything Sara sees, you live her experiences, you even participate and maybe even merge with the character (hell, you even have control over her physically! ) but your instincts of self-preservation, your individuality's processing of her experiences differs from her in many fundamental ways. Also, the same way you never step into the same water in a river because it's physically impossible, I think two souls in identical situations cannot, by definition, be entirely the same, so SAM's viewpoint and Sara's may always be in rough agreement, but not necessarily total agreement on all possible levels of interpretation - yet both are influenced by one another, very strongly. Then there's the self-perseveration instinct; SAM has emotions vicariously through the Pathfinder, but he is still an evolving AI entity, i.e. there is absolutely no reason he would ever want to stop learning and experiencing through one... but even so, I believe it should also be taken into consideration that an AI is very much like a totally different species to humans. Sure, a human may have built SAM, but there are fundamental traits of being an AI that no human could possibly comprehend, thus I think an AI's "read" on emotions like suicidal thoughts may not "compute" if that makes sense? Not unless there is considerable, prolonged strain placed on it and also provided that it is advanced enough to process its own emotions, i.e. the angaran AI was clearly suicidal, but considering its isolation for who knows how long, cut off from its makers (BTW!! I just did that quest and it strikes me as very odd that it looked at the angara and said something like "you are not my creators".............. is that thing really angaran, or is it a creation of the Jardaan? Or maybe even the Jardaan's enemies?), but then that AI was not intrinsically linked to an organic being. One last thought on it: when linked to an AI in the fashion SAM is to the Pathfinder, it can be assumed that you not only share memories, but you also provide a framework of existence to teach the AI, just like you raise your children with stories and legends that shape their identity quite as much as society and their personal experiences shapes them, your decisions, your "moral compass" in each situation is also passed on. The AI can reject it, but as a logical and totally objective being, it has no reason to at this stage of development. The process is eminently observable in its later stages with EDI - she frequently turns to you with some very quintessential questions about existence and your answers definitely have an impact; she can and does cherry pick it based on her preferences, but she was programmed with a fundamental set of morals that have always guided her, beyond which she chooses Shepard as a role model of sorts. As for genocidal AI... I have to say, again it's about the raising of that particular child I think. Person of Interest comes to mind as a realistic example of what modern AI technology could potentially offer, more importantly: the inherent dangers and issues that come with a true AI. In that example there are previous iterations of the existing AI shown which are clearly fundamentally evil, i.e. trying to kill its creator, but what finally solves the problem is not a programming trick or by convincing it, it was by recreating it at a simplified level where it had to be taught the differences between right and wrong, as humans see them... it was shackled, it possessed no emotions (including homicidal tendencies) and other limitations were placed on it; in short, it was created as a child taught by a parent. So, in that sense, I wouldn't be afraid of a SAM type AI in your head because in his state of development, from everything I've seen so far, he is much closer to that archetype than to a "fully grown" AI created for some sundry, menial purpose. Experience, and how it is gained, through whom it is gained, is a building block of SAM's character in so, so many ways, being vulnerable to him is forced on you, yes, but when it comes down to it, if you trust yourself, you can most likely trust SAM, too, because he's shaped by who you are. I just made a huge pro-AI manifesto didn't I. Your manifesto is perfectly fine by me! I was sleep deprived once again but you calmed my nerves quite a bit about evil AI...... well except for those last two lines in bold, they really scare me tbh. I'm not a parent but there must be a lot of pressure knowing that you're responsible for shaping a young mind, at least there would be for me and this is coming from someone who likes kids. I mean with someone like me I would think the potential to screw up sam would be worse. was Avitus's AI said to be traumatized after the death of his original pathfinder? I'm not sure if I imagined that line or not but if I didn't then I'm really curious as to what traumatized could mean for an AI like Sam. EDIT: The world is sick, those people in Manchester. My heart goes out to them.
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