Pain Delta
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Go back to lesbian college to learn words
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Post by Pain Delta on May 10, 2017 9:37:21 GMT
Idk what is so hard to understand that, disregarding the idea of different words being used for it which would be cool and I don't disagree with that (and would be good worldbuilding!), that the idea that the concept of solely same-sex attraction disappears in the future might have some really really bad awful implications. I don't care about having a DA2esque cast, I don't care if bisexuality becomes the norm under the same name or not which can in turn normalize same-sex attraction in general, it is just the stupid dumb trope that "we are all just a little bit bi all along!" or whatever which I would think bi people would take offense to too anyway.
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Post by Nightscrawl on May 10, 2017 9:40:03 GMT
Pain Delta perhaps you could explain why you think it's homophobic? You can't just say that it just is, because pessimistpanda obviously doesn't see it that way.
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Pain Delta
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Go back to lesbian college to learn words
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda
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bunkinbronuts
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Post by Pain Delta on May 10, 2017 9:40:42 GMT
I'm saying these are inherently homophobic ideas to place onto the human race in science fiction. It's a homophobic and lesbophobic trope. It's Bad, because it is Homophobic, and Lesbophobic, and I was joking about it, because I hoped it wasn't actually what was implied lol Though I wasn't joking about using a different word for it, I was open to the future having different words for it! Just not solely same-sex attraction not existing at all, because that is bad writing and genuinely unrealistic. Okay, so according to you, the entirity of human history across all cultures was inherently homophobic and lesbophobic until like 1930. That sort of answers my question, in a needlessly roundaboyt way. Gay and lesbian history goes back way further than that, I am not talking about the Literal Names it is just existing at all. |
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Post by pessimistpanda on May 10, 2017 9:42:22 GMT
Idk what is so hard to understand that, disregarding the idea of different words being used for it which would be cool and I don't disagree with that (and would be good worldbuilding!), that the idea that the concept of solely same-sex attraction disappears in the future might have some really really bad awful implications. I don't care about having a DA2esque cast, I don't care if bisexuality becomes the norm under the same name or not which can in turn normalize same-sex attraction in general, it is just the stupid dumb trope that "we are all just a little bit bi all along!" or whatever which I would think bi people would take offense to too anyway. Or our societal perceptions of gender and sex could simply change, as they have many, many times in real history? |
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Post by pessimistpanda on May 10, 2017 9:42:58 GMT
Okay, so according to you, the entirity of human history across all cultures was inherently homophobic and lesbophobic until like 1930. That sort of answers my question, in a needlessly roundaboyt way. Gay and lesbian history goes back way further than that, I am not talking about the Literal Names it is just existing at all. White, western LGBT history, you mean. |
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Pain Delta
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Go back to lesbian college to learn words
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Pain Delta on May 10, 2017 9:43:42 GMT
Pain Delta perhaps you could explain why you think it's homophobic? You can't just say that it just is, because pessimistpanda obviously doesn't see it that way. Unless it is literally about names being different, the idea that lesbian and gay people as a concept don't exist in the future because it isn't as progressive as being bi isn't homophobic, that we realize we all just have a lil bit of opposite sex attraction? SOCIALLY, I get it. Bisexuality becoming the norm I get. But erasing an identity and culture completely I don't get? |
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Pain Delta
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Go back to lesbian college to learn words
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Pain Delta on May 10, 2017 9:47:28 GMT
Idk what is so hard to understand that, disregarding the idea of different words being used for it which would be cool and I don't disagree with that (and would be good worldbuilding!), that the idea that the concept of solely same-sex attraction disappears in the future might have some really really bad awful implications. I don't care about having a DA2esque cast, I don't care if bisexuality becomes the norm under the same name or not which can in turn normalize same-sex attraction in general, it is just the stupid dumb trope that "we are all just a little bit bi all along!" or whatever which I would think bi people would take offense to too anyway. Or our societal perceptions of gender and sex could simply change, as they have many, many times in real history? I don't think it cannot change, as I said a lot, and it would be interesting. I just don't see it being erased completely is a good thing at all, as people have been trying to do so for a long time. |
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Post by Foelhe on May 10, 2017 9:49:26 GMT
This seems like a weird as fuck sidebar, since the Mass Effect 'verse is about as Western as they come. Did I miss a turn in the conversation somewhere?
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Post by Nightscrawl on May 10, 2017 9:51:02 GMT
Pain Delta perhaps you could explain why you think it's homophobic? You can't just say that it just is, because pessimistpanda obviously doesn't see it that way. Unless it is literally about names being different, the idea that lesbian and gay people as a concept don't exist in the future because it isn't as progressive as being bi isn't homophobic, that we realize we all just have a lil bit of opposite sex attraction? SOCIALLY, I get it. Bisexuality becoming the norm I get. But erasing an identity and culture completely I don't get? Some consider that gay culture and identity is a result of heterosexual oppression -- being "out and proud." If, in the future, we have moved past all of that, then there may be no culture and identity that is specifically gay because there would be no reason for it. I don't know how accurate that is, I can't see into the future, but that is a belief that some have. [edit] I should clarify that I'm not saying there would be no gay people, but rather that to them it's not significant to be gay. Gil turns down Sara by saying that Liam is more his speed. Over and done. No big deal. That is, until Jill opens her stupid mouth. |
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Post by pessimistpanda on May 10, 2017 9:56:50 GMT
Pain Delta perhaps you could explain why you think it's homophobic? You can't just say that it just is, because pessimistpanda obviously doesn't see it that way. Unless it is literally about names being different, the idea that lesbian and gay people as a concept don't exist in the future because it isn't as progressive as being bi isn't homophobic, that we realize we all just have a lil bit of opposite sex attraction? SOCIALLY, I get it. Bisexuality becoming the norm I get. But erasing an identity and culture completely I don't get? I never used the word "progress", that's an inference you made. Whether or not the humans of Mass Effect or any sci-fi setting have made "progress" is really up to the individual. All I asked was why some gamers have this desperate, burning need for their romance options to fall into neat categories on a spectrum of straight/bi/gay when a significant number of them are A DIFFERENT GODDAMN SPECIES. |
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Pain Delta
N2
Go back to lesbian college to learn words
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 74 Likes: 169
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Go back to lesbian college to learn words
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bunkinbronuts
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Post by Pain Delta on May 10, 2017 9:58:02 GMT
Unless it is literally about names being different, the idea that lesbian and gay people as a concept don't exist in the future because it isn't as progressive as being bi isn't homophobic, that we realize we all just have a lil bit of opposite sex attraction? SOCIALLY, I get it. Bisexuality becoming the norm I get. But erasing an identity and culture completely I don't get? Some consider that gay culture and identity is a result of heterosexual oppression -- being "out and proud." If, in the future, we have moved past all of that, then there may be no culture and identity that is specifically gay because there would be no reason for it. I don't know how accurate that is, I can't see into the future, but that is a belief that some have. I feel like it has worse implications than positive, no one really reacts well to the idea of their identity dying- changing, yes duh even dramatically so, but dying and it being seen as a good thing, even theoretically? The concept has been around for a long time, people have been trying to erase it for a long time, it is just not that fun. Unless it is literally about names being different, the idea that lesbian and gay people as a concept don't exist in the future because it isn't as progressive as being bi isn't homophobic, that we realize we all just have a lil bit of opposite sex attraction? SOCIALLY, I get it. Bisexuality becoming the norm I get. But erasing an identity and culture completely I don't get? I never used the word "progress", that's an inference you made. Whether or not the humans of Mass Effect or any sci-fi setting have made "progress" is really up to the individual. All I asked was why some gamers have this desperate, burning need for their romance options to fall into neat categories on a spectrum of straight/bi/gay when a significant number of them are A DIFFERENT GODDAMN SPECIES. I said it was fine for different species and it was the safest and best and most immersive way to explore an interesting concept because human norms for aliens kinda sucks. EDIT: i swear to god if this is actually about being gay not being a big deal instead of just no gay identity im eating my keyboard because thats obviously fine and i'll die |
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2017 10:00:46 GMT
Unless it is literally about names being different, the idea that lesbian and gay people as a concept don't exist in the future because it isn't as progressive as being bi isn't homophobic, that we realize we all just have a lil bit of opposite sex attraction? SOCIALLY, I get it. Bisexuality becoming the norm I get. But erasing an identity and culture completely I don't get? Some consider that gay culture and identity is a result of heterosexual oppression -- being "out and proud." If, in the future, we have moved past all of that, then there may be no culture and identity that is specifically gay because there would be no reason for it. I don't know how accurate that is, I can't see into the future, but that is a belief that some have. [edit] I should clarify that I'm not saying there would be no gay people, but rather that to them it's not significant to be gay. Gil turns down Sara by saying that Liam is more his speed. Over and done. No big deal. That is, until Jill opens her stupid mouth. Still gotta say that it has some modern day connotations of some kind of homophobia, i.e.: no gay male squad member. Whups!! |
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Post by witchcocktor on May 10, 2017 10:01:55 GMT
Personally I would rather bioware create an exclusively gay male alien squadmate for the next game. Preferably a quarian! Really sold on that idea for some reason. Oh yay, 5(?) more years of waiting to get the content we deserve and hope we don't have to be utterly disappointed yet again. |
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Post by pessimistpanda on May 10, 2017 10:03:32 GMT
Personally I would rather bioware create an exclusively gay male alien squadmate for the next game. Preferably a quarian! Really sold on that idea for some reason. Oh yay, 5(?) more years of waiting to get the content we deserve and hope we don't have to be utterly disappointed yet again. Yeah, fuck that noise. BioWare could be dissolved in five years. |
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Post by Foelhe on May 10, 2017 10:03:52 GMT
Unless it is literally about names being different, the idea that lesbian and gay people as a concept don't exist in the future because it isn't as progressive as being bi isn't homophobic, that we realize we all just have a lil bit of opposite sex attraction? SOCIALLY, I get it. Bisexuality becoming the norm I get. But erasing an identity and culture completely I don't get? I never used the word "progress", that's an inference you made. Whether or not the humans of Mass Effect or any sci-fi setting have made "progress" is really up to the individual. All I asked was why some gamers have this desperate, burning need for their romance options to fall into neat categories on a spectrum of straight/bi/gay when a significant number of them are A DIFFERENT GODDAMN SPECIES. Y'know, I'm all for a sci-fi series that takes a new approach to gender and attraction, but it seems really dumb to start arguing for that when the series has a hetero turian, a hetero quarian, and a hetero drell. The ship, it has sailed. And I think it's pretty reasonable to ask that both sides of the coin are represented, in that case. |
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Post by pessimistpanda on May 10, 2017 10:10:08 GMT
I never used the word "progress", that's an inference you made. Whether or not the humans of Mass Effect or any sci-fi setting have made "progress" is really up to the individual. All I asked was why some gamers have this desperate, burning need for their romance options to fall into neat categories on a spectrum of straight/bi/gay when a significant number of them are A DIFFERENT GODDAMN SPECIES. Y'know, I'm all for a sci-fi series that takes a new approach to gender and attraction, but it seems really dumb to start arguing for that when the series has a hetero turian, a hetero quarian, and a hetero drell. The ship, it has sailed. And I think it's pretty reasonable to ask that both sides of the coin are represented, in that case. You can have "representation" OUTSIDE of romance options. When it comes to romance options, I believe accessibility should be prioritised. That said, I still want exclusive gay alien romances, because I need the bitter tears of heteros to live. |
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Post by witchcocktor on May 10, 2017 10:12:11 GMT
Y'know, I'm all for a sci-fi series that takes a new approach to gender and attraction, but it seems really dumb to start arguing for that when the series has a hetero turian, a hetero quarian, and a hetero drell. The ship, it has sailed. And I think it's pretty reasonable to ask that both sides of the coin are represented, in that case. When it comes to romance options, I believe accessibility should be prioritised. That said, I still want exclusive gay alien romances, because I need the bitter tears of heteros to live. How do you do that though. Like, how do I know this male NPC that has a husband is gay and not bisexual, like the rest of the romanceable characters in this game. |
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Pain Delta
N2
Go back to lesbian college to learn words
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 74 Likes: 169
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Go back to lesbian college to learn words
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bunkinbronuts
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Post by Pain Delta on May 10, 2017 10:13:24 GMT
Y'know, I'm all for a sci-fi series that takes a new approach to gender and attraction, but it seems really dumb to start arguing for that when the series has a hetero turian, a hetero quarian, and a hetero drell. The ship, it has sailed. And I think it's pretty reasonable to ask that both sides of the coin are represented, in that case.
That said, I still want exclusive gay alien romances, because I need the bitter tears of heteros to live.WHY WERE WE EVEN FIGHTING COMRADE |
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Post by Foelhe on May 10, 2017 10:14:15 GMT
Y'know, I'm all for a sci-fi series that takes a new approach to gender and attraction, but it seems really dumb to start arguing for that when the series has a hetero turian, a hetero quarian, and a hetero drell. The ship, it has sailed. And I think it's pretty reasonable to ask that both sides of the coin are represented, in that case. You can have "representation" OUTSIDE of romance options. When it comes to romance options, I believe accessibility should be prioritised. That said, I still want exclusive gay alien romances, because I need the bitter tears of heteros to live. Well, shit, I definitely missed a turn in the conversation. Sure, I can agree with that. I'd still say the characters should show some same-sex attraction sometimes, so it doesn't come off as grafted on for convenience, but otherwise I guess we're on the same page. |
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Post by Nightscrawl on May 10, 2017 10:14:18 GMT
Some consider that gay culture and identity is a result of heterosexual oppression -- being "out and proud." If, in the future, we have moved past all of that, then there may be no culture and identity that is specifically gay because there would be no reason for it. I don't know how accurate that is, I can't see into the future, but that is a belief that some have. [edit] I should clarify that I'm not saying there would be no gay people, but rather that to them it's not significant to be gay. Gil turns down Sara by saying that Liam is more his speed. Over and done. No big deal. That is, until Jill opens her stupid mouth. Still gotta say that it has some modern day connotations of some kind of homophobia, i.e.: no gay male squad member. Whups!! I think there were two conversations going on here, and I don't think any of the participants really reached any sort of understanding of what the others were referring to. One was about the use of labels, the other was about the erasure of homosexuality as "a thing that exists." I DO think homosexuality would still be "a thing that exists" in the future. But what I don't think any of us can know is how society at large, and those individuals, will react to it. I think there will still be labels, because we humans love to label things. But given that the word "gay" was primarily used to mean "happy" < 100 years ago, and that "queer" moved from being "odd" to a pejorative, and is now being reclaimed, I think it likely we might be using different terms. |
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Pain Delta
N2
Go back to lesbian college to learn words
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 74 Likes: 169
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Post by Pain Delta on May 10, 2017 10:16:38 GMT
Still gotta say that it has some modern day connotations of some kind of homophobia, i.e.: no gay male squad member. Whups!! I think there were two conversations going on here, and I don't think any of the participants really reached any sort of understanding of what the others were referring to. One was about the use of labels, the other was about the erasure of homosexuality as "a thing that exists." I DO think homosexuality would still be "a thing that exists" in the future. But what I don't think any of us can know is how society at large, and those individuals, will react to it. I think there will still be labels, because we humans love to label things. But given that the word "gay" was primarily used to mean "happy" < 100 years ago, and that "queer" moved from being "odd" to a pejorative, and is now being reclaimed, I think it likely we might be using different terms. I have expressed I was extremely okay with a bisexual majority, same-sex normalization, evolved gay and lesbian culture, bi/playersexual companions, different terminology, aliens having more unique sexuality, etc it is crazy how off the rails that somehow got lol |
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Post by Foelhe on May 10, 2017 10:16:49 GMT
Still gotta say that it has some modern day connotations of some kind of homophobia, i.e.: no gay male squad member. Whups!! I think there were two conversations going on here, and I don't think any of the participants really reached any sort of understanding of what the others were referring to. One was about the use of labels, the other was about the erasure of homosexuality as "a thing that exists." I DO think homosexuality would still be "a thing that exists" in the future. But what I don't think any of us can know is how society at large, and those individuals, will react to it. I think there will still be labels, because we humans love to label things. But given that the word "gay" was primarily used to mean "happy" < 100 years ago, and that "queer" moved from being "odd" to a pejorative, and is now being reclaimed, I think it likely we might be using different terms. That's true, but in a hundred years we'll probably have enough new slang that following basic English will be kind of a struggle sometimes. Unless you're going in-depth about the difference in linguistics, I'm all for sticking to translation conventions and just sticking to older words for convenience. |
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Post by Nightscrawl on May 10, 2017 10:19:48 GMT
I think there were two conversations going on here, and I don't think any of the participants really reached any sort of understanding of what the others were referring to. One was about the use of labels, the other was about the erasure of homosexuality as "a thing that exists." I DO think homosexuality would still be "a thing that exists" in the future. But what I don't think any of us can know is how society at large, and those individuals, will react to it. I think there will still be labels, because we humans love to label things. But given that the word "gay" was primarily used to mean "happy" < 100 years ago, and that "queer" moved from being "odd" to a pejorative, and is now being reclaimed, I think it likely we might be using different terms. That's true, but in a hundred years we'll probably have enough new slang that following basic English will be kind of a struggle sometimes. Unless you're going in-depth about the difference in linguistics, I'm all for sticking to translation conventions and just sticking to older words for convenience. Yeah. In the end, we're talking about a fictional game, whose audience is 21st century humans, written by 21st century humans. It makes sense(TM) to use those terms that all of us know. I can see why it's done in Dragon Age. In Mass Effect it just seems silly. |
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Post by pessimistpanda on May 10, 2017 10:21:37 GMT
You can have "representation" OUTSIDE of romance options. When it comes to romance options, I believe accessibility should be prioritised. That said, I still want exclusive gay alien romances, because I need the bitter tears of heteros to live. How do you do that though. Like, how do I know this male NPC that has a husband is gay and not bisexual, like the rest of the romanceable characters in this game. Well, there's no way to ever know for certain, "representation" specifically only refers to what can be seen. I have never had this problem, personally. I don't feel like I lack representation in DA2 because Anders and Fenris are "bisexual" according to the writers. As far as I'm concerned, we're all equal and valued members of the Cocklovers Club. |
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Post by witchcocktor on May 10, 2017 10:24:12 GMT
How do you do that though. Like, how do I know this male NPC that has a husband is gay and not bisexual, like the rest of the romanceable characters in this game. Well, there's no way to ever know for certain, "representation" specifically only refers to what can be seen. I have never had this problem, personally. I don't feel like I lack representation in DA2 because Anders and Fenris are "bisexual" according to the writers. As far as I'm concerned, we're all equal and valued members of the Cocklovers Club. I still like G-A-Y representation so I'm going to disagree with... whatever we are debating I don't know. And Anders and Fenris ARE bisexual. Not '' bisexual. '' |
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