The Character Romance thread (Official)

While I don't doubt that this might be the case for some women, the odds are so very small that these women are (1) of a certain age to have been married for a length of time to a closeted gay man, (2) are gamers, (3) play Mass Effect, (4) do the Jaal romance, that I can't imagine at all that that accounts for more than a handful of the female players who care about this.

No, the majority of female players that feel this way don't want to share their special purple candy.

Personally I'm in favor for the more utilitarian approach (given this is a game and they have a limited number of squadmate slots and resources to go around, etc), and so would welcome a bi Jaal. But I don't want to speak for his fans that romanced him, so I haven't said anything until now. But I was indeed surprised he wasn't bi in the first place, or that they didn't have a gay squadmate or more content for the non squad crew. DAI kind of raised the bar, with gay squadmates and full content for advisor romances. 

A copy/paste of Scott into Sara's position during the scene with Jaal would make more visual sense than the one Sara got with Peebee. So I really can't take anyone seriously who says that the scenes wouldn't work with Jaal/Scott.

Okay... I hope you don't mind, moderately incensed firmicute if I weigh in on this and try to clarify things a bit.

/PSA.

Sorry for the detour everyone! I'd like to weigh in on the MakeJaalBi situation as well, but I'll do so in a separate post.

Alright... on making Jaal bi... (I feel another essay coming on... )

There does seem to be a few factors at play for why the Jaal Defense Squad^TM exists. And people have made some good points on why the issue might be a bit more complex than pure bi-/homophobia. And perhaps it is. But while I want to give these women the benefit of the doubt and believe that's the case, I still think that's a huge part of it. Even if I think many just don't want to admit it publicly. Maybe not even to themselves.

First, there's the argument that Jaal is a romance 'finally' tailored toward women. With the resources and thought devoted to it that's largely been lacking in romances for straight women in Bioware games - one of the only developers who actually bother to include them at all.

Disclaimer: Yes, gay men and lesbian players have had it worse, in terms of quantity and/or quality. This is a given. But here I'll focus on romances made for straight women, in comparison to those made for straight men. And will point out that lesbian and gay players having it worse doesn't mean Bioware gets to be immune from criticism on this issue. Also, disclaimer within disclaimer: I love that Bioware includes them at all. I've gone on at length about how much I love the romances my female characters get to have and how much it means to me. But that still doesn't give them a pass for when there's an imbalance. As those of you who frequent this thread would probably agree.

With the exception of the Dragon Age franchise, going back to Bioware's legacy games, and the ME franchise, women have had less options than men. That's our first issue.

Second, romances with male LIs (and this affects gay players as well since we typically share them) tend to fall into the same unfortunate tropes, end badly, or have a bunch of angst to wade through to get something resembling a happy one. Romances with female LIs tend to be largely immune to this. We have more dead wives/dead lovers/ex-girlfriends with some sort of tragic something than you can shake a stick it. We've had guys with commitment issues and guys who tell us what a bad idea it is for us to romance them. We've had our guys die, cheat, leave us, and sleep with us under false pretenses. We've had to forgive acts of terrorism and encourage our boyfriends to impregnate other women right after learning we will never get to bear their children (which we then had the dubious pleasure of watching). Straight male players had... Morrigan? But then she got her very own DLC where guys got to have their happily ever after anyway. I guess Cassandra can leave you, but it's for perfectly legitimate, non-melodramatic reasons, and can be avoided easily enough by not choosing her for Divine.

Romances for women tend to have less content, and the love scenes tend to be male-gazey. If we get one at all - in Mass Effect 1 and 2 guys got the more explicit scenes and female players got a kiss with fade-to-black. ME1 Kaidan being the exception but, did you know...? it's actually an exact copy-paste of Ashley's scene with male Shepard. Camera panning on naked female Shepard's body included. In ME3 the Kaidan/femShep scene is at least unique, but again featured way more Shepard in lingerie than necessary.

Even in Andromeda, Scott got more romances, and two featured a sex scene. Since we're back to kiss-with-fade-to-black with Reyes and Liam, and not a whole lot of romance-specific content for either, Jaal's it for a romance equivalent to what ME usually reserves for the straight male players. In that it's actually tailored to female players, to the female gaze, and with substantial resources devoted to it. Personally, I would've preferred those resources be distributed more equally across all the male romances for female players instead of just being dumped on one, but it is what it is. Jaal's not my bag, but I get why his romance means so much to others.

HOWEVER. Gay players deserve this too. They've had it way worse, and also deserve a romance with a ton of content, with a plot-relevant squadmate, with a sexy scene and resources devoted to it. Some also want a sappy over-the-top happy romance with a nice, sensitive guy who will write them cringe-tastic love letters (a want I do not personally get, but, you do you guys... ). So while I get the whole 'yay, it's tailored for women' thing... I just want to tell those women the get the fuck over themselves and learn to share. Especially since making Jaal available to male players in an alternate reality that doesn't affect their playthrough at all takes nothing away from them. I kinda get the worry that making Jaal bi during development would've changed the nature of the romance they so enjoy, but... it's not going to happen now. They're not going to take the time to change existing content, even if they do add him as an option for Scott. Let's be real here - they'll just shorten scenes or take stuff out if it doesn't work, like they have with every other bi option for guys. In a perfect world Scott will get something unique, which I would love to see happen though it's pretty pie in the sky - but they're not going to touch the cinematics and dialogue they already made for Sara. If anything, they'll restore dialogue they initially removed so as not to confuse male players.

There's also the argument against changing a character's sexuality. Okay, this one has some merit. I've said before that if they were going to scrap Jaal as a romance option during development, they should've looked at making Liam a bi romance instead. As someone who really loved the character and his romance (even with the pacing issues and lack of content) I think his romance could've been adapted to a male protagonists nicely. However, if they were to do at this stage, now that he's canonically straight with dialogue in the game to support it, it would make me pretty uncomfortable. Not because I care if Liam is bi, but because you really would be changing his sexuality. I don't think this is the case with Jaal though. He never rejects Scott since Scott doesn't get the opportunity to ask, and there's enough evidence to support that he was conceived as bi at some point to where I see it as restoring content rather than altering it. But it does create a potentially problematic precedent. Players ignorant of or insensitive to the larger issue might start demanding that the Suvis and Seras and Dorians be made bi too. But, whatever, fuck 'em. As long as Bioware clarifies that they're restoring content that was always meant to be there, and sticks by that statement, those players can deal with it. And I argue that fixing the way they treated gay male players in this game is far more important than worrying if a few players who had it pretty good already whine because they're greedy.

As for women claiming that making Jaal bi would 'ruin' his character? I don't know... is a general 'fuck you and your biphobia' considered a 'personal attack'? I mean, even if there is some tiny number of women uncomfortable with the idea of their man being attracted to men because they've been cheated on or used as a front by some closeted guy, well... I sympathize, but, it's a little too much like someone trying to justify their racism because they got mugged by a black guy once. If that's an argument, it's a bad one, as it's totally unfair to every bisexual guy out there in real life. And then of course there's clear biphobia where women think it's icky or whatever - but if it bothers them that much it's on them, not the character, and Bioware shouldn't cater to that anymore than the minority of straight male players who don't want 'SJW' stuff in their games.

They can keep Sara/Jaal romance the same if they make Jaal bi, meaning that he will not show any attraction men unless you play as Scott. This way you would have no idea in game that he is bi. I think this is a good compromise: people who think bisexuality would ruin him can ignore his bisexuality (like in many other bi characters), while he is additional option for mlm.

At the very least, I'm pretty certain that the Dragon Age and maybe the Secret IP(if it has romances) are taking notes in result of this situation so that they can avoid it. The DA team already pretty much nailed equal options with equal content in DAI. 

'BioWare arguably leads the industry in the inclusion of LGBT+ characters, for example, but this also opens it up to criticism when it doesn’t get them right. BioWare takes shit from both sides. It brings the ire of more socially conservative players, but it also means, because BioWare has done more than most developers, unless it continues to do more than most developers, it gets stick for it. BioWare has to tread a careful path between doing enough and doing too much - you’re going to annoy someone somewhere down the line.”- from www.eurogamer.net/articles/2017-05-19-writing-the-next-dragon-age

He's not writing a big part of the game, like I said, but I still think that's a lot of red flags to put up in just one paragraph, because heaven forbid you let the gays offend the conservatives. Got to be real careful not to do that now. 

With such beautiful, stunning posts in my history, it's time for me to apply for Bioware's Community Manager position.

Thank you! His name is Garrus. 

In an unrelated thread, out of the blue? I wouldn't call that posting in good faith, no. Would you like some shit you said however long ago suddenly brought up against you, in a completely different topic and setting? Does that seem like a welcoming, "safe" environment to you?

Oh no you have to go default.

The dorky and cuddly wonderfulness must remain in tact

FTFY

I've seen a pattern now. Every time someone brings up a LGBT mod, everyone has to return to their "regular schedule romance talk." Why won't you address their concern about trying to get another LGBT mod? It could help you and the LGBT people out. 

So, I've slowly been catching up on the thread (I'm still a few pages behind), and after reading some of the discussion about the bi Jaal thing, there was something that I wanted to add.

I do not understand the whole "tailor-made for straight women" thing.  As much as I've tried to think about and analyze it since I first came across the argument a few months ago, it has never made sense to me.
*snip*
This is why the "tailor-made" argument makes no sense to me.
It's not about gender.
It's not about sexual orientation.
It's about individual people and their personal preferences