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Post by Nightscrawl on May 31, 2017 11:39:52 GMT
So... what was Mike Laidlaw's explanation? It's from PAX South DAI pannel. I think youtube has to have recording of it, I took written version from tumblr. So he said that "There are people...Who.. unless you shatter their collarbone.. cannot be stopped from writing. And even then cannot be stopped from writing. Yeah, is that Mr. Weekes who is to blame, um, kind of just can’t be stopped. Uh, he kinda declared one day that he had had an idea and had written most of it and he’s very fast and he’s pretty good...So, that’s, that’s kinda what happened. Um, he decided it would work and I decided it was pretty great and then we’d figure out if we could afford it. And we just, we moved some stuff around and probably couldn’t’ve afforded it and there was some things and then we said ‘well what, what if it was only lady elves’. And he said 'that’s kinda what I wrote it for’" So, why didn't he just say that instead of the "we wanted to avoid the 'depraved bisexual' trope" when asked about it? (This is a rhetorical question. I know you can't read PW's mind.) Saying, "My original vision was for female elves, anyway. It also just happened to be that allocation of resources fell along those lines as well," is not hard.
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Post by ellanathehamster on May 31, 2017 11:54:06 GMT
The way I see it, decision to make Solas straight and elves only was combination of many reasons. First, and imo main reason, was because Weeks saw that romance in a specific way. Plus I think he truly wanted to avoid trope, as for elves only- Solas is pretty racist towards other species at the beginning of the game (and till the end, if Inquisitor has disapproval relationship with him), so he couldn't see anyone other than Lavellan, an elf, in romantic way. And, as it happens, that was really convenient for developers, cause it means they need to spent way less money on animations. So this romance works good for of lore and is affordable for developers. Weeks definitely thought all of this through.
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2017 11:55:47 GMT
I want the Inquisitor back but in my heart I know we're still so many years from a canonically disabled protagonist like that. What do you think will happen sooner in a Bioware game? Disabled protagonist or same-sex romance being featured in a cinematic trailer? Same sex romance was already in a cinematic trailer. Shepard/Cortez handholding in the citadel trailer. I'm not crazy about a disabled protag, too easy to make it all about them being disabled.
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Post by Felya87 on May 31, 2017 11:56:33 GMT
I prefer the 2/2/2 appoach myself versus the "all BI". Mostly because I'm quite on the greedy side and it mean six romance total instead of only four.
I would not mind the All BI approach if the romance was actually different based on the gender of the PC. But I have little faith that the devs would actually do a different path for the same character. For now, almost all the BI romance had very minimal differences when romancing a character with a male or female (with some bad results too).
I'd prefer the romancable characters to be all important in the plot somehow: not everything should be about the PC, having companions that feel equally important to the story make them more memorable and (for me at least) make my own character feel even more important (hey, look, I'm with people who are as great as me, and they have grow to resepct me, we are a great team!) plus, is always (at least for me) fun to have a group grow to respect one another between missions, even not liking or strusting each other at first (is one of the things that make Morrigan one of my favourite friendship). Of course, this can be a problem with games where the characters can be ignored/killed/go away. But in games where companions are mandatory, it shoul be done.
Otherwise, I definitely agree the first two companions and the most plot related should be BI.
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Post by pessimistpanda on May 31, 2017 12:11:01 GMT
What do you think will happen sooner in a Bioware game? Disabled protagonist or same-sex romance being featured in a cinematic trailer? Same sex romance was already in a cinematic trailer. Shepard/Cortez handholding in the citadel trailer. I'm not crazy about a disabled protag, too easy to make it all about them being disabled. Also easy to avoid, though, if you're remotely capable as a writer.
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Post by Nightscrawl on May 31, 2017 12:13:16 GMT
Felya87 I realize you're only speaking for yourself there, but not everyone is willing to cross the gender barrier for more options. So four bi is two male and female for each orientation. 2/2/2 is also two for gay and straight, because the split is along gender lines, as the bi male and female are shared with the gay and straight romances. As for differences between the male/female romances for bi LIs, I prefer that the differences be minimal. For Dragon Age, I think Anders has the most notable differences. Not only is there the bit about Karl, but I think he treats fem Hawke differently; he is more patronizing toward her and I definitely do not like it. This is subjective, but I definitely do feel that the male Anders romance is better.
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2017 12:35:12 GMT
Same sex romance was already in a cinematic trailer. Shepard/Cortez handholding in the citadel trailer. I'm not crazy about a disabled protag, too easy to make it all about them being disabled. Also easy to avoid, though, if you're remotely capable as a writer. So just dont ask montreal to do it then eh
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Post by Catilina on May 31, 2017 12:58:21 GMT
Felya87 I realize you're only speaking for yourself there, but not everyone is willing to cross the gender barrier for more options. So four bi is two male and female for each orientation. 2/2/2 is also two for gay and straight, because the split is along gender lines, as the bi male and female are shared with the gay and straight romances. As for differences between the male/female romances for bi LIs, I prefer that the differences be minimal. For Dragon Age, I think Anders has the most notable differences. Not only is there the bit about Karl, but I think he treats fem Hawke differently; he is more patronizing toward her and I definitely do not like it. This is subjective, but I definitely do feel that the male Anders romance is better. What is funny, because Anders written by a woman...
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Post by Walter Black on May 31, 2017 13:40:42 GMT
One thing I'm curious about: do those clamoring for a gay Companion of major plot importance want them relevant, but still optional, or mandatory? If it is the latter, I must say I've grown weary of mandatory characters in general, as it removes players' choice in who they want on their team, and makes them less competent since they can't progress without them. I had several Origins runs where I got fed up with Alistair's manbaby antics and wanted to kick him, but couldn't. What if I fundamentally disagree with someone, think that they are incompetent, or are too dangerous to walk free? What if I'm roleplaying an evil character, and the gay KISA is standing in the way of my ambition?
To those who say, "it's only fair, since we've been forced with mandatory straight Companions", I say two wrongs don't make a right. A PC's party should ultimately be the sole result of their roleplaying choices, and you should not have had to accept any characters you did not want. To those who say that an LBGTQ Companion should be mandatory to prevent the player from being a bigot, I call bullshit and refer to an earlier post:
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Post by MediocreOgre on May 31, 2017 13:40:57 GMT
One of the things that really hit me recently is that... Starting companions in BioWare games are ALWAYS straight-only options. Like, DA2 aside, the only time our first two companions in the game aren't heterosexual is ME3, if you're playing a game with Kaidan. That's one of the things that really stands out as frustrating, since I think it's really easy to get attached to these first companions, who are generally also romance options (again, DA2 is the only exception). They're the people who are with you from moment one, that forges a connection. And they ALWAYS end up being straight romances. In Inquisition, every character aside from Cassandra, Solas, and Varric are in some way or another optional, they can all leave the Inquisition or not be recruited. Making one of these characters bi (or even gay, though I'm not holding my breath...) would be a really big thing, because they're going to be, for good and for ill, a major character - whether or not they're plot important, these are the characters guaranteed to be there, who show their usefulness in combat right away, who establish themselves quickly. It's easy for a player to fall for them, and they've NEVER been anything but straight. Even DA2 your first real companions outside your sibling are Aveline and Varric, who are both straight presenting (I have no idea how they identify but their significant relationships are with opposite sex partners/crossbows). So even if they are not romance options, they also tend to be straight. Probably less an incidental/unconscious thing and probably more because, as ME:A made apparent, BW developers do overly consider that some people are uncomfortable with LGBTQ characters, and as that one (arguably not important/temp) writer for DA4 said recently, they have to have a "balance" between representation and not offending sensitive turd humans who don't want to see LGBTQ people. Which is not heartening.
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Post by MediocreOgre on May 31, 2017 13:49:30 GMT
One thing I'm curious about: do those clamoring for a gay Companion of major plot importance want them relevant, but still optional, or mandatory? If it is the latter, I must say I've grown weary of mandatory characters in general, as it removes players' choice in who they want on their team, and makes them less competent since they can't progress without them. I had several Origins runs where I got fed up with Alistair's manbaby antics and wanted to kick him, but couldn't. What if I fundamentally disagree with someone, think that they are incompetent, or are too dangerous to walk free? What if I'm roleplaying an evil character, and the gay KISA is standing in the way of my ambition? To those who say, "it's only fair, since we've been forced with mandatory straight Companions", I say two wrongs don't make a right. A PC's party should ultimately be the sole result of their roleplaying choices, and you should not have had to accept any characters you did not want. To those who say that an LBGTQ Companion should be mandatory to prevent the player from being a bigot, I call bullshit and refer to an earlier post: Ah yes. I remember this in the KISA thread. As games are finite products with finite resources made by people with finite time, patience, and imperfect ability to predict what random player #10596 will want to do in any given situation, they are going to prevent you from having complete agency just as a thing. In general companion characters are used to move the plot forward, and these become essential because in order to make a game that has a coherent structure, the writers have to have you keep these characters around, again, because they don't have all the time in the world and don't want to create a Skyrim style game where you can kill most everyone or never meet people, but even then, Skyrim has essential NPCs. There will always be limits to what you as a Player can do.
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Post by Nightscrawl on May 31, 2017 14:02:44 GMT
Catilina Well I don't always agree on what other women find romantic, or appealing, so there's that. Walter Black That's just part of the whole "plot relevance" aspect of it. If you can easily discard a follower, then their connection to the plot isn't that strong, is it? Another aspect of it, aside from any LGBT representation issues, is that they want the player to have guaranteed party members so there is always someone available. You might say, "If players want to make dumb decisions and not recruit anyone, then the devs should let them make that dumb decision." That's all well and good, but the devs don't appear to think that way, or with such extremes. So we always have a few followers that are mandatory. The majority of the followers in DAI were optional. Only our original trio of Cassandra, Solas, and Varric were mandatory. I don't count the advisors here, as our PC has no authority over them when they join the Inquisition.
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2017 14:03:29 GMT
Overall, they do forced companions better now than back in the days of Shandra & her Flammable Barn (yes, it was Obsidian, but the habit comes from them, so...) Even Morrigan, the Unshakable Witch was less of a burden because she at least did not require you to kick any of your beloved comps out to have her enforced participation.
They will never manage to create a character absolutely everyone would love and don't want to ever part with, so I don't want them to even try. Instead, I'd rather they concentrate on making plot important with locked in party comp stretches fairily short, and don't worry about a strongly worded letter about being stuck in a dungeon in a company of a man who prefers the company of men.
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Post by Nightscrawl on May 31, 2017 14:12:19 GMT
Overall, they do forced companions better now than back in the days of Shandra & her Flammable Barn (yes, it was Obsidian, but the habit comes from them, so...) Even Morrigan, the Unshakable Witch was less of a burden because she at least did not require you to kick any of your beloved comps out to have her enforced participation. They will never manage to create a character absolutely everyone would love and don't want to ever part with, so I don't want them to even try. Instead, I'd rather they concentrate on making plot important with locked in party comp stretches fairily short, and don't worry about a strongly worded letter about being stuck in a dungeon in a company of a man who prefers the company of men. I've noticed that there is a certain venom some players have when it comes to either not recruiting, or doing harm to some characters. I've read posts from players that were practically giddy over giving Fenris back to Danarius. Not because they were RPing some asshole, but because they, the player, hated Fenris as a character and wanted to hurt him. I can't understand that attitude, really. If I don't like a character, I just don't associate with them. If you hated Solas and his shiny dome, you could just never speak to him again after arriving in Skyhold. After Skyhold, the only forced Solas interaction comes at the end of the game.
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Post by Nightscrawl on May 31, 2017 14:25:20 GMT
To expand on the plot relevance thing, the idea is to have that rep outside of the romances. Although, yes, most people love the idea of a plot-relevant romance... hehe.
Let's take Varric, who was mandatory and plot relevant for two games (his relevance in DAI is flimsy, but we'll roll with it). He is not a romance option, and is presented as straight. Does he have to be? Can't his crossbow be named Bernard? There isn't any reason he has to be straight, excepting the powers that be decided he was.
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2017 14:29:34 GMT
Overall, they do forced companions better now than back in the days of Shandra & her Flammable Barn (yes, it was Obsidian, but the habit comes from them, so...) Even Morrigan, the Unshakable Witch was less of a burden because she at least did not require you to kick any of your beloved comps out to have her enforced participation. They will never manage to create a character absolutely everyone would love and don't want to ever part with, so I don't want them to even try. Instead, I'd rather they concentrate on making plot important with locked in party comp stretches fairily short, and don't worry about a strongly worded letter about being stuck in a dungeon in a company of a man who prefers the company of men. I've noticed that there is a certain venom some players have when it comes to either not recruiting, or doing harm to some characters. I've read posts from players that were practically giddy over giving Fenris back to Danarius. Not because they were RPing some asshole, but because they, the player, hated Fenris as a character and wanted to hurt him. I can't understand that attitude, really. If I don't like a character, I just don't associate with them. If you hated Solas and his shiny dome, you could just never speak to him again after arriving in Skyhold. After Skyhold, the only forced Solas interaction comes at the end of the game. I do get this attitude. I did truly despised certain characters, and liked the options to kill them when they were there. It is not logical, and it plays on the dark instincts of human nature. I freely admit that I will buy DA4 on day one, full price and all, if I learn that you can kill Morrigan for good in it. But this is not BioWARE's fault. They did not make me spiteful and jealous of a particular woman type, they wrote a character that they wanted to appeal. They did not do it to trigger my insecurities. Honestly, I don't see player agency in these things as a bad idea. It's a video game.
And yes, I also did change opinions about characters I did not like at the first sight too. But sometimes every subsequent appearance, any word out of their mouth only made me want to kill them more. There were characters I really liked to start with, but came to hate eventually.
And that is also true in respect to the protagonist. I am looking forward to leaving my second Hawke in the Fade, while for my first, I'd do anything to let him live.
Just like with romances, with hatreds, I want as few assumptions & preconceived notions as possible made about me as a player, and my gaming.
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Post by Steelcan on May 31, 2017 14:33:42 GMT
Its still working in the shadows to fight Solas, I imagine a part of that is you know, still recruiting agents. Also I'm not inclined to care about people who make stupid choices, but ymmv. No, what's stupid is to denigrate the noble choice Trespasser very much tried to present as the logical one, and it will be right next in its monumental stupidity to creating a fantasy cyborg out of the Inquisitor, or, even better, inventing a one-handed style specially for him, that combines the rogue, Mage and warrior. And, yes, the eight concubines, one of which is now an arch nemesis. I'm gonna pay to see how Bio writes itself out of the grave they have dug for the last vestiges of cohesion and continuity hopes with the Trespasser. Probably wait till their band aids for corpses TM is on sale. people always tend to forget that with wanting the choices in Bio games, they have to accept that other players will make choices different from theirs, and that they are just as valid, and that Bio needs to honour all of them. Or, one day, it will be you who did not make the canon, and had your choices tossed out into trash or forgotten about, 'cause you were a minority. BioWare is so concerned about honoring different world states, that's why Trespasser made almost all of them the same, with Qunari attacks on Tevinter, a Circle and College on Enchanters in opposition, etc...
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2017 14:36:06 GMT
I wont lie I do get very happy when it comes to leaving ash to die on virmire and just shutting down kelly so she wont appear in me3. I really wish peebee could die. I have to just not talk to her to get by aside from her cringey loyalty mission.
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Post by caterpillar on May 31, 2017 15:34:37 GMT
The bolded part, yes! If you are roleplaying a straight character, there's no lgbtq representation at all in the game, besides the playersexual LIs, the characters are so little nuanced that I dont even bother to say that they are bisexual myself. I thought this happened with FO4 too, but I'm glad there's a lesbian couple, it's something! I hope Bethesda gets better with future games but I'm glad that I can self-insert myself as player. In a Skyrim DLC there is a gay male couple but of course they are dead and it is unclear if one of them did not go insane and kill the other. But that is pretty much it if you do not play a gay or bi character. Fallout has Mel from Hancock's recruitment or whatever who flirts with your male character pretty much no matter what, I believe. But pretty low profile representations on the level of those blacksmith people from DA:O or Dumbledore from HP. And BW games with their plot and (excluding ME:A) plot heavy, character driven stories, interesting LGBT characters can be developed in interesting/satisfying ways where as Bethesda games you mostly learn about things from notes, and usually the notes are written by dead people. Though I hear their new game has better visibility of I believe a lesbian relationship? Haven't played it. I just started a new save of FO4 and made a point of looking out for the lesbian couple because people here had told me about them, and I managed to miss seeing them in my previous 6 saves, lol. So, yeah, there are two women hugging each other as the bombs are dropping and you are running toward the vault. It's pretty vague as far as representation goes, as anyone inclined to want to deny the existence of homosexuality could easily interpret that as sisters, or mother and daughter or hell, just gals being pals. When you return to Sanctuary after the intro, there's a terminal in the house belonging to the local drug dealer and he has some entries there about your neighbors, and none mention the lesbians. I cannot claim to have read every single terminal entry or note in the Commonwealth, or talked to every NPC, but in the tons of things I have read and the NPCs I've met, it's an overwhelmingly straight world. I can remember several instances of notes and terminals that mention straight relationships, and I can think of several NPCs who are in straight relationships, but I can't recall any that mention gay relationships. Even your companions have backstories with a straight relationship (or no past relationships mentioned at all) so they are only seen as bi if you romance them with a same sex PC. Someone may be able to pull a few other examples of NPCs or terminal stories out to show me, but overall, Bethesda plays it really safe in how they do gay representation. I'd hate to see Bioware slide that far back down the scale.
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Post by caterpillar on May 31, 2017 15:41:16 GMT
I know that Danse it's the KISA one, but I think you have to ally with some templar-like organization to be with him, and I dont like that, we'll see and Hancock is the ghoul right? maybe it's my spanish brain, but... han...COCK HANCOCK XDDD ok I'll stop it :gentleman: When I was kid, there was an insurance company named after John Hancock, and their jingle used to 'Put your John Hancock on a John Hancock'. We used to sing it in the playground. (John Hancock is also an American idiom that just means your signature, because the real life John Hancock had a very large, prominent signature)
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Post by Steelcan on May 31, 2017 15:58:36 GMT
I know that Danse it's the KISA one, but I think you have to ally with some templar-like organization to be with him, and I dont like that, we'll see and Hancock is the ghoul right? maybe it's my spanish brain, but... han...COCK HANCOCK XDDD ok I'll stop it :gentleman: When I was kid, there was an insurance company named after John Hancock, and their jingle used to 'Put your John Hancock on a John Hancock'. We used to sing it in the playground. (John Hancock is also an American idiom that just means your signature, because the real life John Hancock had a very large, prominent signature) He was also an important figure in the American Revolution, which with the connection to Boston is presumably why they named him that.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: yangthecat
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Post by caterpillar on May 31, 2017 16:23:29 GMT
When I was kid, there was an insurance company named after John Hancock, and their jingle used to 'Put your John Hancock on a John Hancock'. We used to sing it in the playground. (John Hancock is also an American idiom that just means your signature, because the real life John Hancock had a very large, prominent signature) He was also an important figure in the American Revolution, which with the connection to Boston is presumably why they named him that. It is absolutely why they named him that. Or rather, the character John Hancock named himself after the revolutionary hero and actually wears his clothes (taken from a museum). I wasn't trying to imply that Bethesda named the character after the insurance company or the American idiom that John Hancock's large, prominent signature inspired, I was just sharing a dick joke with Nick. Granted, my dick jokes are usually less flaccid than this one was...
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2017 16:24:53 GMT
To expand on the plot relevance thing, the idea is to have that rep outside of the romances. Although, yes, most people love the idea of a plot-relevant romance... hehe. Let's take Varric, who was mandatory and plot relevant for two games (his relevance in DAI is flimsy, but we'll roll with it). He is not a romance option, and is presented as straight. Does he have to be? Can't his crossbow be named Bernard? There isn't any reason he has to be straight, excepting the powers that be decided he was. None whatsoever, and considering how they were keen on breaking every cliche they could with him, being a dwarven male bard, who does not like subsurface, and a loveable rogue who does not do the womanizing thing, instead he is deeply committed to one person, and it's not the PC, and he takes over PC's turf later on, there is really no reason. But, well, we are players, they are employed to create content for the environmental NPCs, the PC is ours. I hope that the more they add characters that are inspired by the multitude of cool humans out there, the less of the same we'll keep getting in the casts and the plots. I do not like knowing three games in advance that I will get to romance exactly the same redressed archetype in every game, and I don't look for predictable or comfortable anything. Or I try not to. I'd rather play in odder settings, than in the ones that thrive on selling the variants on what came before. But I still want bi romances, 'cause I want my perfect protagonist and my perfect romance all in the same PT, not divided into multiple ones. Lol, don't judge...
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inherit
529
0
7,815
Nightscrawl
3,266
August 2016
nightscrawl
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Nightscrawl on May 31, 2017 17:39:03 GMT
I just started a new save of FO4 and made a point of looking out for the lesbian couple because people here had told me about them, and I managed to miss seeing them in my previous 6 saves, lol. So, yeah, there are two women hugging each other as the bombs are dropping and you are running toward the vault. It's pretty vague as far as representation goes, as anyone inclined to want to deny the existence of homosexuality could easily interpret that as sisters, or mother and daughter or hell, just gals being pals. When you return to Sanctuary after the intro, there's a terminal in the house belonging to the local drug dealer and he has some entries there about your neighbors, and none mention the lesbians. I cannot claim to have read every single terminal entry or note in the Commonwealth, or talked to every NPC, but in the tons of things I have read and the NPCs I've met, it's an overwhelmingly straight world. I can remember several instances of notes and terminals that mention straight relationships, and I can think of several NPCs who are in straight relationships, but I can't recall any that mention gay relationships. Even your companions have backstories with a straight relationship (or no past relationships mentioned at all) so they are only seen as bi if you romance them with a same sex PC. Someone may be able to pull a few other examples of NPCs or terminal stories out to show me, but overall, Bethesda plays it really safe in how they do gay representation. I'd hate to see Bioware slide that far back down the scale. Doesn't Danse have a male friend in his story that can be interpreted that way if you want? I didn't get that far in the game, I just know from things I've read about it and him.
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inherit
The Unbelievable
752
0
4,176
Panda
1,410
August 2016
panda
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Jade Empire
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Post by Panda on May 31, 2017 17:44:20 GMT
Apparently no romance news, at least according to couple last pages I have been reading?
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