Ianamus
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Post by Ianamus on Jun 7, 2017 12:25:38 GMT
Oh, I still think the "makes sense" argument is dumb, and I haven't seen anyone else say they like it either. It's annoying BioWare thinks that matters, and that's one reason I'll be keeping a sharp eye on 'em going forward. It's just not a big enough problem for me to ignore the fact that we've got a bisexual guy on the squad. As for ethnicity? If a writer had a cast that was white as snow, and they decided to change that and bring in some color, I'd be 100% supportive. I care a lot more about real-life fans getting to see themselves in the game than I do about fictional characters staying true to their origins. Here is another big change to something that turned out great. Ever watch Battlestar Galactica? The original had a male Starbuck. The reimagined series has a female Starbuck and is a phenomenal character and fan favorite. Change is wonderful sometimes. Sometimes it isn't. In the case of Jaal, it is great for those who wanted it and does absolutely nothing for those who are complaining against it. There's a big difference between creating a new iteration of a franchise and making changes to the characters and altering the original source material.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2017 12:25:49 GMT
Noooo! I assumed Jaal wouldn't be made bi and so I romanced him with my femryder before my gay ryder playthrough!! Guess I'll just have to listen to his sexy ass voice twice. Damn shame. It's torture right? lol
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Post by Obiwancomeblowme on Jun 7, 2017 12:30:14 GMT
Here is another big change to something that turned out great. Ever watch Battlestar Galactica? The original had a male Starbuck. The reimagined series has a female Starbuck and is a phenomenal character and fan favorite. Change is wonderful sometimes. Sometimes it isn't. In the case of Jaal, it is great for those who wanted it and does absolutely nothing for those who are complaining against it. There's a big difference between creating a new iteration of a franchise and making changes to the characters and altering the original source material. Oh, go clutch your pearls and tell us again how Jaal being bi affects you personally. It doesn't.
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Post by flog61 on Jun 7, 2017 12:30:39 GMT
Here is another big change to something that turned out great. Ever watch Battlestar Galactica? The original had a male Starbuck. The reimagined series has a female Starbuck and is a phenomenal character and fan favorite. Change is wonderful sometimes. Sometimes it isn't. In the case of Jaal, it is great for those who wanted it and does absolutely nothing for those who are complaining against it. There's a big difference between creating a new iteration of a franchise and making changes to the characters and altering the original source material. Firstly, the code suggests Jaal was originally intended to be bi, so it seems that actually him being *straight* was making a change to the character. Secondly, it's not as if Jaal turns down male Ryder. Scott just literally isnt given the option to flirt with him.
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Ianamus
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Post by Ianamus on Jun 7, 2017 12:37:43 GMT
There's a big difference between creating a new iteration of a franchise and making changes to the characters and altering the original source material. Oh, go clutch your pearls and tell us again how Jaal being bi affects you personally. It doesn't. When did I say it affects me personally? I just strongly disagree with the decision on principle. It's a subject that means a lot to me, but that's probably true of everybody here.
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Post by gaycaravaggio on Jun 7, 2017 12:38:45 GMT
I have nothing to add to the conversation besides the hope that whatever DLC there may be expands on characters with less content. If only because the franchise may be on ice for a while and even if ME returns, I somehow doubt rn that it'll continue with the Ryders.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2017 12:44:04 GMT
Guys I know there's going to be some nasty backlash for this, but just remember one thing. You won! Enjoy this gift and try not to let others taint your happiness, and if you need any help with romancing Jaal (guide is NOT helpful), ask us anything in the Jaal thread! Thank you so much for great support! I was really depressed back in March and April, not only because of Andromeda romance situation (or overall Andromeda's situation), but RL stuff was also ''bitter''. Still for some reason I'm ''afraid'' to go to Jaal's thread, I don't want any fights with some straight people, I just want to enjoy this moment
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Post by flog61 on Jun 7, 2017 12:44:51 GMT
I have nothing to add to the conversation besides the hope that whatever DLC there may be expands on characters with less content. If only because the franchise may be on ice for a while and even if ME returns, I somehow doubt rn that it'll continue with the Ryders. I could definitely see there being a Reyes dlc, especially since he can't die. If we get three DLCs, I think there'll be a Reyes DLC, a DLC about the Remnant which may conclude with us finding tech to wake up our mum, and obviously a quarian DLC
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Post by gaycaravaggio on Jun 7, 2017 12:45:41 GMT
Isn't it great how you can make anything you're arguing with look stupid if you completely ignore all context and nuance? C'mon, dude. Arguing with a strawman just makes you look petty. The context doesn't make it any better. MEA's m/m options sucked and were awful, but a characters sexuality shouldn't be something that you just change in the patch notes as if it isn't a big deal. Sexuality is an important topic for many people, and flipping a characters sexuality like a light switch has a lot of really unfortunate implications. I also find the hypocrisy highly amusing. When the developers say that Jaal is straight because it "makes sense" they are berated and scoffed at because sexuality shouldn't have to 'make sense'. But when they change Jaals sexuality to bi because they decided it "made more sense" they are praised? Could you imagine if they changed a characters ethnicity by popular demand, how awful that would be? Why should sexuality be any different? I understand to some extent how you feel, but I don't think the ethnicity argument really works. Mostly because people can be more than one ethnicity; they can't be more than one sexual orientation. There's people who initially think they're bi or straight or gay and then realize they're something else, but that's not the same as being multiple orientations at the same time.
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Post by gaycaravaggio on Jun 7, 2017 12:47:32 GMT
I have nothing to add to the conversation besides the hope that whatever DLC there may be expands on characters with less content. If only because the franchise may be on ice for a while and even if ME returns, I somehow doubt rn that it'll continue with the Ryders. I could definitely see there being a Reyes dlc, especially since he can't die. If we get three DLCs, I think there'll be a Reyes DLC, a DLC about the Remnant which may conclude with us finding tech to wake up our mum, and obviously a quarian DLC I hope we get more than one DLC to begin with, tbh.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2017 12:47:51 GMT
Guys I know there's going to be some nasty backlash for this, but just remember one thing. You won! Enjoy this gift and try not to let others taint your happiness, and if you need any help with romancing Jaal (guide is NOT helpful), ask us anything in the Jaal thread! Thank you so much for great support! I was really depressed back in March and April, not only because of Andromeda romance situation (or overall Andromeda's situation), but RL stuff was also ''bitter''. Still for some reason I'm ''afraid'' to go to Jaal's thread, I don't want any fights with some straight people, I just want to enjoy this moment
I admit my losing it here was not because of Jaal, but just the in-fighting with friends, but I always had your backs, I just needed to cool down and focus. Romancing Jaal was painful because I missed you guys too, but the thread is safe and fun, so don't worry!
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Ianamus
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights
Origin: EJ107
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Post by Ianamus on Jun 7, 2017 12:50:20 GMT
The context doesn't make it any better. MEA's m/m options sucked and were awful, but a characters sexuality shouldn't be something that you just change in the patch notes as if it isn't a big deal. Sexuality is an important topic for many people, and flipping a characters sexuality like a light switch has a lot of really unfortunate implications. I also find the hypocrisy highly amusing. When the developers say that Jaal is straight because it "makes sense" they are berated and scoffed at because sexuality shouldn't have to 'make sense'. But when they change Jaals sexuality to bi because they decided it "made more sense" they are praised? Could you imagine if they changed a characters ethnicity by popular demand, how awful that would be? Why should sexuality be any different? I understand to some extent how you feel, but I don't think the ethnicity argument really works. Mostly because people can be more than one ethnicity; they can't be more than one sexual orientation. There's people who initially think they're bi or straight or gay and then realize they're something else, but that's not the same as being multiple orientations at the same time. That's true, but I'm just looking at it as an example of an intrinsic thing you are born with that can be a large part of who you are. Things like disabilities, ethnicity and sexuality are all sensitive subjects with a lot of real world weight, and I don't think they should be flipped around based on consumer feedback. Maybe a better example would be if they created a patch that includes several lines where Kallo talks about being a trans man. Yes, it would increase trans representation in the game, which would be a good thing, and you could argue that he was all along we just didn't know... but I don't think it's appropriate to make changes like that in patches.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2017 12:53:40 GMT
Thank you so much for great support! I was really depressed back in March and April, not only because of Andromeda romance situation (or overall Andromeda's situation), but RL stuff was also ''bitter''. Still for some reason I'm ''afraid'' to go to Jaal's thread, I don't want any fights with some straight people, I just want to enjoy this moment
I admit my losing it here was not because of Jaal, but just the in-fighting with friends, but I always had your backs, I just needed to cool down and focus. Romancing Jaal was painful because I missed you guys too, but the thread is safe and fun, so don't worry! It's fine, it was difficult time for most of us, and attacking each other was just pouring oil to the fire, some did even attack some developers on Twitter, I'm always against such behaviour, even when I was sad and angry myself I never thought about doing such things. After all they did listen
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Post by palinopsia on Jun 7, 2017 12:54:57 GMT
Oh man. Ooooh man. I didn't think I'd be coming back to these forums, but... They've done it. They have actually gone and made him bi.
I don't know how I feel about this. But at least now I can play my canon playthrough, so I'm not complaining lmao (I still can't quite believe this is real and really happening tbh)
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2017 12:56:27 GMT
I admit my losing it here was not because of Jaal, but just the in-fighting with friends, but I always had your backs, I just needed to cool down and focus. Romancing Jaal was painful because I missed you guys too, but the thread is safe and fun, so don't worry! It's fine, it was difficult time for most of us, and attacking each other was just pouring oil to the fire, some did even attack some developers on Twitter, I'm always against such behaviour, even when I was sad and angry myself I never thought about doing such things, and after all they did listen Yeah that upset me too. I know faith was lacking, but my gut kept saying we'd all get Jaal if we just hang in there! It took a lot of people to show them this mattered, but now that they've made an effort to go as far as to animate new stuff, write new things and had the actors come in to do new lines all based on learning from actual bi/gay people, I'm praying future games will avoid this by them remembering the backlash of 2017.
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Post by bloodofthefirst on Jun 7, 2017 12:56:45 GMT
Oh man. Ooooh man. I didn't think I'd be coming back to these forums, but... They've done it. They have actually gone and made him bi. I don't know how I feel about this. But at least now I can play my canon playthrough, so I'm not complaining lmao (I still can't quite believe this is real and really happening tbh)
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Post by gaycaravaggio on Jun 7, 2017 13:04:24 GMT
I understand to some extent how you feel, but I don't think the ethnicity argument really works. Mostly because people can be more than one ethnicity; they can't be more than one sexual orientation. There's people who initially think they're bi or straight or gay and then realize they're something else, but that's not the same as being multiple orientations at the same time. That's true, but I'm just looking at it as an example of an intrinsic thing you are born with that can be a large part of who you are. Things like disabilities, ethnicity and sexuality are all sensitive subjects with a lot of real world weight, that I don't think should be flipped around based on consumer feedback. Maybe a better example would be if they created a patch that included a line where Kallo says he is a trans man. Yes, it would increase trans representation in the game, which would be a good thing, and you could argue that he was all along we just didn't know... But I don't think it's appropriate to make changes like that in patches. I think to some extent the line between creator and fandom is much thinner than it used to be, for better or worse. And, well, there's always been the practice of listening to consumer response. Fans really want A, so creator gives them A. I understand why it might seem cold and insensitive, but I'm just happy to get that A. The situation around this was pretty specific, though, and the situation of m/m in ME:A is something I doubt would ever happen to m/f or f/m options in future Bioware games. In any game with gay romance options (not just bi or het romance options), the options for straight pairings with the protag outnumbered the possible gay pairings with the protag. Yes, f/m had more options in DA:I than any other kind of pairing, but m/f had an equal amount of options to f/f and m/m (or just f/f if we're also counting Harding). Basically, hetero pairings are oftentimes given first thought, so the context around m/m in ME:A is unlikely to occur for m/f or f/m. I definitely understand your worry for the precedent it sets, but, hopefully, Bioware understands the difference between making one of multiple straight characters bi and making the single lesbian bi, in a game where gay stuff was overall shafted. In general, I also think it's a sign of how far we've come. Think about it: could we ever have imagined 10 years ago gay fans arguing for a popular video game character to be bi would actually have successful results? I don't even like Jaal that much, but I'm amazed that something like this could even occur. And, well, lately the world has been a little disappointing (but I won't get into politics or personal life here), so this news lifted my spirits. Hell, it gave me hope. Maybe that's stupid. Maybe that's shallow. But that's just how I see it.
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Post by gaycaravaggio on Jun 7, 2017 13:06:04 GMT
Oh man. Ooooh man. I didn't think I'd be coming back to these forums, but... They've done it. They have actually gone and made him bi. I don't know how I feel about this. But at least now I can play my canon playthrough, so I'm not complaining lmao (I still can't quite believe this is real and really happening tbh) Welcome back!
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Post by palinopsia on Jun 7, 2017 13:12:26 GMT
What I find interesting is that they didn't at all mention in the patch notes that Jaal was supposed to be bi all along. I mean, the code is still there. There are no gender checks. But I feel like they would've used that as an excuse to decrease the backlash (oh Jaal is bi now because he was actually supposed to be bi all along! it was cut because we didn't have enough time, so we're not actually "changing" the character) from offended dudebros, yet they still didn't. Maybe we were interpreting that code wrong all along? in which case, we can't use the "Jaal was supposed to be bi" argument either... idk
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2017 13:15:33 GMT
What I find interesting is that they didn't at all mention in the patch notes that Jaal was supposed to be bi all along. I mean, the code is still there. There are no gender checks. But I feel like they would've used that as an excuse to decrease the backlash (oh Jaal is bi now because he was actually supposed to be bi all along! it was cut because we didn't have enough time, so we're not actually "changing" the character) from offended dudebros, yet they still didn't. Maybe we were interpreting that code wrong all along? idk Likely he was considered bi in early stages, then they changed it and gave him a Sara-focused romance, and now they've done something new and unrelated to Sara's romance, so Scott gets a non-copy and paste romance unlike other bi LI's. Modders found bi Cora sound files too.
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Post by Steelcan on Jun 7, 2017 13:17:04 GMT
What I find interesting is that they didn't at all mention in the patch notes that Jaal was supposed to be bi all along. I mean, the code is still there. There are no gender checks. But I feel like they would've used that as an excuse to decrease the backlash (oh Jaal is bi now because he was actually supposed to be bi all along! it was cut because we didn't have enough time, so we're not actually "changing" the character) from offended dudebros, yet they still didn't. Maybe we were interpreting that code wrong all along? in which case, we can't use the "Jaal was supposed to be bi" argument either... idk My guess is that it was handled differently from the other romances for some reason, perhaps because his content was made before or after all the other ones. We know that lines get recorded and into the game's files that are never meant to see the light of day but its hard to say for sure what happened there.
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Post by sageoflife on Jun 7, 2017 13:24:52 GMT
What I find interesting is that they didn't at all mention in the patch notes that Jaal was supposed to be bi all along. I mean, the code is still there. There are no gender checks. But I feel like they would've used that as an excuse to decrease the backlash (oh Jaal is bi now because he was actually supposed to be bi all along! it was cut because we didn't have enough time, so we're not actually "changing" the character) from offended dudebros, yet they still didn't. Maybe we were interpreting that code wrong all along? in which case, we can't use the "Jaal was supposed to be bi" argument either... idk We'll have to wait until the patch is released to see, but I think the new dialogue and animations are mainly cleaning up what was already in the game to make it flow better and prevent the copy/paste complaints that the bi male romances frequently get.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2017 13:26:03 GMT
What I find interesting is that they didn't at all mention in the patch notes that Jaal was supposed to be bi all along. I mean, the code is still there. There are no gender checks. But I feel like they would've used that as an excuse to decrease the backlash (oh Jaal is bi now because he was actually supposed to be bi all along! it was cut because we didn't have enough time, so we're not actually "changing" the character) from offended dudebros, yet they still didn't. Maybe we were interpreting that code wrong all along? in which case, we can't use the "Jaal was supposed to be bi" argument either... idk We'll have to wait until the patch is released to see, but I think the new dialogue and animations are mainly cleaning up what was already in the game to make it flow better and prevent the copy/paste complaints that the bi male romances frequently get. No bi romance should be a copy and paste. If this is different, I hope future bi romances get that too. That PeeBee/Sara scene is just so wrong.
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Post by gaycaravaggio on Jun 7, 2017 13:26:55 GMT
The power of pixels on a screen will see us through.
I'll wait for E3, and I'll wait for the patch.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights
Origin: EJ107
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Post by Ianamus on Jun 7, 2017 13:36:47 GMT
That's true, but I'm just looking at it as an example of an intrinsic thing you are born with that can be a large part of who you are. Things like disabilities, ethnicity and sexuality are all sensitive subjects with a lot of real world weight, that I don't think should be flipped around based on consumer feedback. Maybe a better example would be if they created a patch that included a line where Kallo says he is a trans man. Yes, it would increase trans representation in the game, which would be a good thing, and you could argue that he was all along we just didn't know... But I don't think it's appropriate to make changes like that in patches. I think to some extent the line between creator and fandom is much thinner than it used to be, for better or worse. And, well, there's always been the practice of listening to consumer response. Fans really want A, so creator gives them A. I understand why it might seem cold and insensitive, but I'm just happy to get that A. The situation around this was pretty specific, though, and the situation of m/m in ME:A is something I doubt would ever happen to m/f or f/m options in future Bioware games. In any game with gay romance options (not just bi or het romance options), the options for straight pairings with the protag outnumbered the possible gay pairings with the protag. Yes, f/m had more options in DA:I than any other kind of pairing, but m/f had an equal amount of options to f/f and m/m (or just f/f if we're also counting Harding). Basically, hetero pairings are oftentimes given first thought, so the context around m/m in ME:A is unlikely to occur for m/f or f/m. I definitely understand your worry for the precedent it sets, but, hopefully, Bioware understands the difference between making one of multiple straight characters bi and making the single lesbian bi, in a game where gay stuff was overall shafted. In general, I also think it's a sign of how far we've come. Think about it: could we ever have imagined 10 years ago gay fans arguing for a popular video game character to be bi would actually have successful results? I don't even like Jaal that much, but I'm amazed that something like this could even occur. And, well, lately the world has been a little disappointing (but I won't get into politics or personal life here), so this news lifted my spirits. Hell, it gave me hope. Maybe that's stupid. Maybe that's shallow. But that's just how I see it. While I don't necessarily agree with making Jaal bi I have to agree that it's a great sign that the devs were actually listening and do actually care. I definitely appreciate the show of support and the fact that they actually made a change this large, even if I'm not sold on the specifics.
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