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Post by witchcocktor on Mar 20, 2017 23:34:32 GMT
Sorry, but Gil is the definition of a token gay character. "We are trying to move away from token characters and make things feel more natural and realistic" They really do live in a bubble. For all the mistakes he made, I genuinely feel Casey cared. Why do you think he's a "token gay character"? I've seen this said a few times now and I'm not understanding this nor the claim (made by someone else, I think) that his whole story revolves around being gay. I mean, I know you don't like Gil. But what exactly is this claim based on? Okay, I didn't really say that his whole story revolves around being gay. I do think his romance really puts a lot of emphasis on the homosexuality, weirdly enough lol. See, look at the gay guys and their romances/stories so far that we've gotten from BW
1) Steve -> dead husband, getting over dead husband 2) Dorian -> daddy doesn't accept my sexuality 3) Gil -> lets become daddies and make it perfectly clear we cant have children without a third wheel
a lot of these stories put a lot of emphasis on the '' being gay '' thing, and especially Gil's seems so detached from the actual game and it's plot that it's almost weird and out of place. A lot of the times, these characters do seem like they are gay first, characters later, whether it comes to their story or their romance. I know I'm picky, but it's also why I seem to gravitate more towards bisexual males in BW games, because there is none of that gay profiling in their story or romance.
By all means, love Gil, his story, his romance, everything about him. I'm not very into him and some of his romance weirds me out.
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Post by roseofquartz on Mar 20, 2017 23:35:05 GMT
Morning all, how are we today? Jaal is straight, most of the thread is pissed off and the game launches in about 6 1/2 hours. Coffee? Please.
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Post by Artemis on Mar 20, 2017 23:35:06 GMT
Prince, I get that you are upset about Jaal. We all are, but there really is no need to constantly drag poor Gil through the dirt because of it. But I think criticizing Gil and what his inclusion in the game means and stands for is fair game! So long as fans of Gil are not criticized, too I actually am very unhappy about what he stands for... the whole "keep the gays in the hold" concept (to say the least). Less content, less care put into his design. Fade to black scene. it is FAIR to criticize those things. But people who love Gil and are excited about him should NOT feel bad or be made to feel bad. It's awesome that they're excited. I hope Gil is a great romance!
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Post by miso9 on Mar 20, 2017 23:35:41 GMT
Quality over quantity. F/f romances in DAI sucked all the way. I would say it's a matter of perspective because I find the gay options for DAI sucks, Dorian's story is basically a writer's mouthpiece to retell the same storyline about gay conversion that had been told hundreds of time which focused too much on him being gay while Iron Bull is a promiscuous bisexual and forced BDSM on you or you can't romance him, telling you that he knows what you need better than yourself. No gay marriage, and no happy ending with Dorian. At the end of the day, gay never has more options than any of the groups, not straight men, not straight women, not gay women, in ANY game, not even if you go back to Knight of the Old Republic, not even Jade Empire. I remember that some time ago Gaider in response to criticism about Sera wrote on his Tumblr that the writing team knew very well that 50% of the players will hate her but they wouldn't change a thing anyway. He continued it with explanations that this is what makes a strong, interesting character, though from my perspective that wasn't important. What really lacked in that speech was a moment of reflection, that Sera was the first lesbian character in DA and the first lesbian companion in BW games (at least since Juhani). And one of the only two potential options for lesbian players he gleefully admitted to be intentionally designed to be hated by as many players as possible. So it was basically admitted Sera wasn't made for lesbian players, she was an artwork done for art itself. Meanwhile Dorian certainly was written with a lot of respect with gay players in mind, by a gay man. And aside from Sera, we had advisor romance which lacked content compared to the ones with companions. Josephine's romance arc was clearly written for straight men, since it was heavily based on specific heteronormative customs that didn't make sense even within the context of world's lore. Nothing was rewritten for female character at all. It was still better than how you guys got treated now no doubt, but when it comes to DAI alone I'd argue we got the short end of the stick.
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Post by dhalion on Mar 20, 2017 23:36:13 GMT
*heavy breathing* It is so damn hot... I am in love with Zevran already. I still love love the original Mass Effect trilogy. Always. But screw Andromeda I am finally playing Dragon Age and banging me that EILF Yeeesss, good, come to the Zevran love I love Zevran so much
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2017 23:36:17 GMT
Ok, so I am downloading Dragon Age: Origins on my PS3. Out of curiosity I typed in the male protagonist and Zevran's romance on YouTube, since I know Zevran is a bi option for male and female I think? Now unless this is a PC mod or something, this romance scene is so much better than MEA's scraps. I know it's a different team but... this was what, 2009??? If that is a genuine scene, and not a mod, then I think I've might the right choice playing this over MEA. Yep, that's the scene. No mods. Pro-tip: If you play human or dwarf, you top. If you play elf, Zev tops. Omfg this game is my dream why the hell have I never played it i found religion omg but it kinda sad knowing this game did romance scenes and LGBT better (imo) than andromeda
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Post by izut on Mar 20, 2017 23:36:40 GMT
To be honest, I am really disappointed since I watched Gil's video. I mean, I'm glad I did.. so I can just go for Reyes. It isn't what I was hoping for at all, though. This comes after thinking before seeing it that I would probably really like his path. The good thin is, you found something at least a bit positive for you
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Post by Artemis on Mar 20, 2017 23:37:19 GMT
No bi Jaal mod for me, I passed through enough angst with my Warden and the inevitable US, and bi Cullen mod. So no more. No more headcanon for me. I haven't played Skyrim and I heard that you can marry lizard men, the nearest thing to an alien in my books so... It's in my to do list Just a heads up TES is more about world building than plot or characterization. I love the series but realize you have to write your own stories in your head. Or on AO3 *looks lovingly at multi-chapter fanfic*
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Post by SwobyJ on Mar 20, 2017 23:37:45 GMT
I would say it's a matter of perspective because I find the gay options for DAI sucks, Dorian's story is basically a writer's mouthpiece to retell the same storyline about gay conversion that had been told hundreds of time which focused too much on him being gay while Iron Bull is a promiscuous bisexual and forced BDSM on you or you can't romance him, telling you that he knows what you need better than yourself. No gay marriage, and no happy ending with Dorian. At the end of the day, gay never has more options than any of the groups, not straight men, not straight women, not gay women, in ANY game, not even if you go back to Knight of the Old Republic, not even Jade Empire. It wasn't about gay conversion. It was about Dorian accepting "his place" in Tevinter society. He was to be a stud to the brood mare chosen for him as an ongoing part of the Imperium's eugenics program to create "the perfect mage" DOrian was expected to go along with it (just as his parents did) "for the good of the Imperium" But Dorian wasn't going to do that. His goal is to reform the Imperium. It's what mage him a pariah. Make him straight, he still wouldn't have complied with his father's wishes. Thus the blood magic. TO make him compliant, not straight. You could even talk with him about it after the mission, ask him if the ritual could have worked. He admits he doesn't know, but even if it did "I can't even imagine the person I would be now. I wouldn't like that Dorian" Not something he'd say if all it did was make him straight. A major argument against gay conversion is that it is ultimately to make the child compliant at any cost to the whims of societal and familial demands, instead of anything like a 'therapy' to 'help'.
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Post by uberlurker on Mar 20, 2017 23:37:58 GMT
So, is Reyes a full romance? Like with an achievement and everything? The datamined files said that he doesn't go towards the achievement. It didn't say anything conclusive, since the dataminers couldn't find much of his code, but also the info from that was wrong about Jaal, so. lol I think he's probably a full romance. If he's not, jeez, I guess m/m is screwed even more than the "two options" we've been quoting. I think he probably is, though. He looks to have as much or more content than Gil. Eh, I don't really know. It sounds like he never leaves the planet so he seems way too walled off form the rest of the game. I also watched the ending and he's nowhere to be found sooooooo...
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Post by SwobyJ on Mar 20, 2017 23:38:43 GMT
*wakes up after nap to see if people have calmed down* *sees Nat angry* Can you guess that I just heard the bad news? I promise everyone I will be calmer. You guys need a bit of a calmer and more hopeful voice. We'll get through this. If those that are upset (hiya!), start putting emails and tweets together. Open up Notepad or google docs for it. Wording is extremely critical. I'm angry, but I also know that these are just human beings. I also know that they don't mean to make some folks feel like shit. I'm hoping this will be something they can learn from. I'm also trying to remember that not everyone on this team is a long-time BioWare employee. Some are brand new to the company. Some have gone into the ME:A team with a much different perspective. So I am trying very hard to cut them a little slack here. The only one that I will probably be bitter towards in the long run is one Mr. Mac "Gotta bang da Asari" Waters. The buck stopped with him. So he looked at a coded and detailed Jaal romance and decided, "Nope! Now give me my blue space babe." Seriously, Mac's love with Asari reminds me of Quentin Tarantino's foot fetish. Will Bioware still track player data? Because I may do all I can to avoid asari NPCs this time.
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Post by Suaimhneas on Mar 20, 2017 23:38:56 GMT
Omfg this game is my dream why the hell have I never played it i found religion omg but it kinda sad knowing this game did romance scenes and LGBT better (imo) than andromeda Fair warning, he might at one point tell you he kinda prefers ladies..... hey its still bioware.
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Post by metta on Mar 20, 2017 23:39:04 GMT
Just realized Gil really is the only gay man in the Andromeda galaxy.
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Post by bloodofthefirst on Mar 20, 2017 23:39:09 GMT
At least with Fallout 4, they don't treat gay people as some kind of disease that need to be hidden away. I'll give them that. There is even a lesbian couple before the bomb drop. I still don't feel like we should be using Fallout 4's romance as something to base off of. Don't get me wrong, I loved aspects of it and I love all the characters (even preston, shut up), but story wise, is it better, or worse then what we are typically given by Bioware? I'm using their agenda rather than anything. They put fun first and freedom of choices. You can do whatever you want, free to love who you want, and the game doesn't set arbitrary rules for you couldn't romance someone. They don't race gated Iron Bull because they can't set the scenes right, they don't say you can't romance Cullen because they ran out of time, they don't say you can't romance Jaal because it may upset the straight players. The problem with the way Bioware does it is that it's not about exclusivity, it's about fulfilling quotas, and deliberate favoritism which leads to groups like gays being put on the backburner whenever they divide the set sexualities, there is not one instance where gays have been been the top end, but always on the receiving end of the equation. Wow, now that I typed it, it sounds dirty.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2017 23:39:45 GMT
Prince, I get that you are upset about Jaal. We all are, but there really is no need to constantly drag poor Gil through the dirt because of it. Hun, I watched Gil's romance. I will probably like him. He seems sweet and a nice guy. But I think he is a token character, and a half assed effort on BioWare's part.
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Post by riou on Mar 20, 2017 23:40:11 GMT
Do I have to resort to fanfiction? Like, I almost wrote M!Shep/Garrus back in the day because otherwise it didn't exist, but I want characters to be accurate to their own personality and I felt I could never do Garrus justice.
So am I going to have to do that for Jaal now too?
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XBL Gamertag: Byne
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Post by byne on Mar 20, 2017 23:40:17 GMT
Just realized Gil really is the only gay man in the Andromeda galaxy. "Using cryopod space to bring people who cant reproduce is foolish" - someone at BW probably
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Post by Steelcan on Mar 20, 2017 23:40:18 GMT
guys I've been hating the asari for years, y'all all late to the party
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Post by Plague Doctor on Mar 20, 2017 23:40:20 GMT
Suvi actually seems quite involved in the plot. Yeah and I thought that Jaal wasn't straight. I still don't believe that they will do a good NPC. The ME:A team did very bad things to my trust here. Involved in the plot probably = She'll give you a few major quests. Have some cute lines and almost never have any new dialogue. Maybe she'll even have one cut-scene all to herself, just like Samantha did in ME3! Ooh, maybe two? I do not expect anywhere near the same level of quality as Josie or Cullen at this point. I'll be happy if I'm wrong, but so far, the ME:A team has shown that they love to take steps backward. Then look around and wonder why the fans are furious. Hell, I'm furious and I've never been the type to be an angry fan. For those that think I'm not acting like my usual self, you're right. Most of the time I try to stay upbeat and calm. It takes a lot to make me this angry and frustrated. It takes a lot, and seeing the gay/bi men that had their faith in the company has done it. For the first time in 5 years, EA-BioWare has managed to do just that. Edit: Typo Haha, i know right? Im a primo Bioware apologist, always have been, and despite not really being interested in m/m content myself, i have been getting slowly but surely angrier ever since the announcement. Ever since the review scores dropped i have been afraid that ME may be dead in the water, but i actually dont care anymore. Maybe if they shelve Mass Effect theyll revive Jade Empire, who knows. Lets just hope the Secret IP team is more in line with the DA peeps, and not Montreal. I want to stay a Bioware-Fan, and not downgrade to just a Dragon Age-Fan.
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Post by Artemis on Mar 20, 2017 23:40:27 GMT
It wasn't about gay conversion. It was about Dorian accepting "his place" in Tevinter society. He was to be a stud to the brood mare chosen for him as an ongoing part of the Imperium's eugenics program to create "the perfect mage" DOrian was expected to go along with it (just as his parents did) "for the good of the Imperium" But Dorian wasn't going to do that. His goal is to reform the Imperium. It's what mage him a pariah. Make him straight, he still wouldn't have complied with his father's wishes. Thus the blood magic. TO make him compliant, not straight. You could even talk with him about it after the mission, ask him if the ritual could have worked. He admits he doesn't know, but even if it did "I can't even imagine the person I would be now. I wouldn't like that Dorian" Not something he'd say if all it did was make him straight. A major argument against gay conversion is that it is ultimately to make the child compliant at any cost to the whims of societal and familial demands, instead of anything like a 'therapy' to 'help'. Another major argument against it is that it's ABUSE and DOESN'T WORK.
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Post by dhalion on Mar 20, 2017 23:41:08 GMT
Yep, that's the scene. No mods. Pro-tip: If you play human or dwarf, you top. If you play elf, Zev tops. Omfg this game is my dream why the hell have I never played it i found religion omg but it kinda sad knowing this game did romance scenes and LGBT better (imo) than andromeda lmao your conversion to Zevranism is legit one of the bright spots of this thread for me, thank you for that
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Post by thesnarkyshaman on Mar 20, 2017 23:41:11 GMT
Why do you think he's a "token gay character"? I've seen this said a few times now and I'm not understanding this nor the claim (made by someone else, I think) that his whole story revolves around being gay. I mean, I know you don't like Gil. But what exactly is this claim based on? Okay, I didn't really say that his whole story revolves around being gay. I do think his romance really puts a lot of emphasis on the homosexuality, weirdly enough lol. See, look at the gay guys and their romances/stories so far that we've gotten from BW
1) Steve -> dead husband, getting over dead husband 2) Dorian -> daddy doesn't accept my sexuality 3) Gil -> lets become daddies and make it perfectly clear we cant have children without a third wheel
a lot of these stories put a lot of emphasis on the '' being gay '' thing, and especially Gil's seems so detached from the actual game and it's plot that it's almost weird and out of place. A lot of the times, these characters do seem like they are gay first, characters later, whether it comes to their story or their romance. I know I'm picky, but it's also why I seem to gravitate more towards bisexual males in BW games, because there is none of that gay profiling in their story or romance.
By all means, love Gil, his story, his romance, everything about him. I'm not very into him and some of his romance weirds me out. Dude, yes, this. In the space of one game he goes from a rakeish 'I take it as it comes, I don't settle down, I just do' to 'let's have a kid and be a big gay family with my hag, 22 year old guy I've started dating!' It's just...bizarre tonally when in context of the Mass Effect series. When I watched the 'let's have a kid' scene I had to double take.
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Post by Catilina on Mar 20, 2017 23:41:30 GMT
Just realized Gil really is the only gay man in the Andromeda galaxy. But it is because more credible. Who would believe that there is even more gay(s!) in one galaxy?
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Post by Artemis on Mar 20, 2017 23:41:50 GMT
Do I have to resort to fanfiction? Like, I almost wrote M!Shep/Garrus back in the day because otherwise it didn't exist, but I want characters to be accurate to their own personality and I felt I could never do Garrus justice. So am I going to have to do that for Jaal now too? Yeeeeep. Welcome to the world of fanfiction. It exists because it has to. Because the best stories don't get written! So we do it for them.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2017 23:42:15 GMT
The most well done one is still from Kaidan for me, even with the underwear since it was an act before sex. It shows the romantic side of the sex, not the lust itself. I think that scene was so tastefully and romantically done. Close and kinda on par with the scenes I'm seeing from DA:O, with ME3's of a better quality obviously.
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