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Post by clips7 on Feb 28, 2017 5:39:44 GMT
It's about the characters first and foremost. There is a reason ME3's ending caught so much flak... and it really isn't because the story went off the rails for 10 minutes, but because you spend three games building the character relationships and you got 10 minutes of "that didn't matter, make this arbitrary choice, and we won't tell you shit about what happened to the characters in the long term". The reason Bioware games are so beloved is because they provided an experience that almost no other game had... and really most games still don't give: you get to react and grow and build relationships with characters. It's the selling point for their games. Personally I disagree a little, teensy tiny bit. I for one was most angry at first because I thought they dropped the entire reaper concept on the floor. To me that was always the biggest "statement" of them all, aside from alien relationships and organics vs synthetics. It not only asks "what is life" but it contained potentially pondering themes about "what is existence?" an answer that can't be answered but it surely could've been dissected more. Reapers were literally gods that were so far above us, they were a sign that no matter how far into space you get, there'll always be something out there that's larger than we can comprehend, but it's true that by ME2 the concept had much more started to focus on relationships and characters. I'd still argue though that those things were strongly reinforced by the turmoil. I can't imagine caring for Mordin if all he had was his funny personality. He was great because of his belief in redoing the genophage until he course-corrected and found redemption in curing it when the world needed that cure and when the entire galaxy needed the Krogan to have optimism and support in fighting for everybody's lives. I think you lose incentive to make me care about a story if you're designing it under the pretense that it's not as important as relationships. Mordin's relationships to his friends in ME2 and ME3, in my eyes, are only as strong as their relation to his belief about issues that are 100% tied to the plot and lore; the context, of the story. That context isn't just a bunch of vague stuff. It's not "There was a people that I sterilized. I don't regret it. But we may need their help, so now I'll cure them". It's "I sterilized the Krogan, and we need them now, so I'll cure them", and there's a whole other backstory to the Krogan, reinforced by Wrex which is reinforced by Saren because Saren built a clone-army of Krogan that made us realize what the Krogan viability meant to Wrex. You see what I mean? The plot keeps the wheel turning. You need it to make the relationships more than just fluff. There's plenty of context in Andromeda. There's some kind of plot too, but I worry about the fact that they've started by creating characters and then making the plot secondarily because you can't be sure they all tie together in the way ME123 did. You can't start out by making a Citadel DLC. You need to build everything up with a great plot before the relationships by themselves feel important. I completely agree with this. Especially the part about the Reapers and their role in the universe...I loved that it touched on elements of the unknown.."what is existence?" and "what is life?" concepts. I still wasn't too upset over the ending, but I felt Bioware dropped the ball on that huge buildup. Who knows, maybe that overall story ark got away from them or they wasn't able or hit a wall as to how to proceed further,.... hence "starchild". I really felt at one point there was going to be this EPIC confrontation between Shepard and those that created everything and created the rules and stipulations of the universe and how that dynamic would play out between Shepard and whoever was there to witness it....how would the human mind or even the minds of an asari/salarian etc or whoever was your squadmate handle and process that moment?....even in a sci-fi fantasy/ type game with powers and things of that nature, i think confronting the mystery of the creators of the universe would have been an incredibly powerful moment.
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Post by ryerye17 on Feb 28, 2017 5:58:02 GMT
This is a very odd polarization. It depends on who you talk to. Classical writers and critics (such as Plato) would argue that plot is the most important factor in a narrative and that characters exist to serve the plot. More modern drama critics though (including Lajos Egri) postulate that character is the heart of the story and the plot should spring naturally from character's motivations, conflicts, etc. It's a matter of preference/perspective. Hell it seems to be the difference between old tv and new tv or old books and new books or old games and new games or old movies and new movies. A lot of writing, in its infancy, at least so it seems to me...tend to be a lot more plot driven, and then they all go through moments where the characters become more and more important. More of, it's a matter of perspective than it is of the work. Character-driven works have existed since the ancient Greeks but they looked at it differently. While Plato was obsessed with how perfect Oedipus was in terms of plot, we know tend to look at Oedipus as perfect in terms of character. In a way, the narrative of Oedipus will not have happened if Oedipus was a different person. Same goes for all Shakespearean plays. More than the work itself, it's a matter of who is reading it, where, and when.
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Post by Addictress on Feb 28, 2017 6:06:13 GMT
Without story, characters cannot react and act and are shit.
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Post by Addictress on Feb 28, 2017 6:18:10 GMT
For instance, Solas and Anders are only great characters because of the intense lore buildup regarding elves, Templars, chantry.
If we didn't feel the weight of the forces in the chantry, they wouldn't have a basis for their passionate viewpoints and actions.
Kaidan is weak because his main unique feature is his biotic implant that causes migraines. Except instead of giving him some special mission in which HE resolves to do something about that, which is tied to unique ME lore, it's relegated to backstory.
Mordin Solus and Wrex are great characters because they actually want something. Something related deeply to what makes the ME universe special. Solus to atone for the Salarian solution, and to be a proud Salarian scientist. Wrex, to lead krogans into a more progressive future.
Dorian is weak. He wants to reform Tevinter, but we don't actually see him do anything to really reform Tevinter or engage the Venatori in a dedicated story arc. We've got some venatori mooks that spawn in certain places? I guess? He's got some eloquent, well-voice-acted dialogue options in the library....?
But does he perform major actions? No. He doesn't go up to disperse the krogans cure like Solus, giving up his life in a cut scene. He doesn't deceive you and blow up a chantry. He doesn't face off with the Arishok and go up the city ranks on his own like Aveline. He doesn't obsess over a mirror or go through staged trials like Grunt or blow up a childhood concentration camp.... etcetera.
Strong characters Do things. They have huge motivations, obsessions, sensitive points. They are ACTIVELY INVOLVED in the main plot or at least some intriguing subplot that demonstrates the lore - that gives you a representation of aspects of the fictional world and its factions.
They do shit. It remains to be seen if Andromeda characters will have such agency.
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Post by Kabraxal on Feb 28, 2017 18:06:21 GMT
It's about the characters first and foremost. There is a reason ME3's ending caught so much flak... and it really isn't because the story went off the rails for 10 minutes, but because you spend three games building the character relationships and you got 10 minutes of "that didn't matter, make this arbitrary choice, and we won't tell you shit about what happened to the characters in the long term". The reason Bioware games are so beloved is because they provided an experience that almost no other game had... and really most games still don't give: you get to react and grow and build relationships with characters. It's the selling point for their games. Personally I disagree a little, teensy tiny bit. I for one was most angry at first because I thought they dropped the entire reaper concept on the floor. To me that was always the biggest "statement" of them all, aside from alien relationships and organics vs synthetics. It not only asks "what is life" but it contained potentially pondering themes about "what is existence?" an answer that can't be answered but it surely could've been dissected more. Reapers were literally gods that were so far above us, they were a sign that no matter how far into space you get, there'll always be something out there that's larger than we can comprehend, but it's true that by ME2 the concept had much more started to focus on relationships and characters. I'd still argue though that those things were strongly reinforced by the turmoil. I can't imagine caring for Mordin if all he had was his funny personality. He was great because of his belief in redoing the genophage until he course-corrected and found redemption in curing it when the world needed that cure and when the entire galaxy needed the Krogan to have optimism and support in fighting for everybody's lives. I think you lose incentive to make me care about a story if you're designing it under the pretense that it's not as important as relationships. Mordin's relationships to his friends in ME2 and ME3, in my eyes, are only as strong as their relation to his belief about issues that are 100% tied to the plot and lore; the context, of the story. That context isn't just a bunch of vague stuff. It's not "There was a people that I sterilized. I don't regret it. But we may need their help, so now I'll cure them". It's "I sterilized the Krogan, and we need them now, so I'll cure them", and there's a whole other backstory to the Krogan, reinforced by Wrex which is reinforced by Saren because Saren built a clone-army of Krogan that made us realize what the Krogan viability meant to Wrex. You see what I mean? The plot keeps the wheel turning. You need it to make the relationships more than just fluff. There's plenty of context in Andromeda. There's some kind of plot too, but I worry about the fact that they've started by creating characters and then making the plot secondarily because you can't be sure they all tie together in the way ME123 did. You can't start out by making a Citadel DLC. You need to build everything up with a great plot before the relationships by themselves feel important. Here's the question that showcases the divide someone that prefers a plot driven experience or a character driven one: if you removed the characters from the story, would you still wish to experience the story? If you removed the story or changed it entirely, would you still want to see the characters? Personally, I would love to get a slice of life story of Miranda, Jack, Ashley, Garrus... pre or post Reaper War. I am invested in the characters and they are the reason I play, replay, and absolutely love Bioware games.
The arching plot of the Reaper War had some good points and ideas, but ultimately, the games were never truly about those points and ideas... it was about this band of characters coming to together and fighting it. And that was completely forgotten in the ending of ME3. You could have the exact same Catalyst choices but people would have reacted far less heated if there was a long epilogue slide detailing how the characters pushed on afterword and how our choices affected them. Casey Hudson simply made the mistake in thinking that most Bioware fans are story driven gamers. Luckily, they got the message and gave us the Citadel DLC (alllll about the characters) and then Dragon Age: Inquisition further focused on the characters and again gifting us a DLC that was primarily about the characters and what happens to them after the DLC.
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Post by garrusfan1 on Mar 1, 2017 0:32:14 GMT
I think characters are always the most important thing. What does it matter if there is some dramatic death if you don't care about the character. Also Bioware games have always had the best characters
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Post by NUM13ER on Mar 1, 2017 0:44:41 GMT
A story is as much about the characters as it is the plot events driving them forward. If you don't care about who the events of a story are affecting, then it's difficult to care about those events in the first place. Good characters can elevate a mediocre plot but bad characters can sink even a great storyline.
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Post by SalMasRac on Mar 1, 2017 0:46:41 GMT
It's about Bioware's Social Justice League.
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Post by akaranzo on Mar 1, 2017 1:49:12 GMT
I think the last Star Wars movie proved to me that characters should serve the story, not the other way around. In my opinion, the first thing that needs to be set is the overall plot, there needs to be a thread that runs throughout the story and weaves it all together. Characters are a great way to expand that story and add some depth to it. Through them you can also give some foreshadowing. But interesting characters without an interesting story doesn't make for a good piece of entertainment in my eyes *cough*The Force Awakens*cough*.
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Post by SilJeff on Mar 1, 2017 1:50:28 GMT
For Bioware games, I do care about both, but characters are more important to me.
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Post by Addictress on Mar 1, 2017 5:38:08 GMT
I think the last Star Wars movie proved to me that characters should serve the story, not the other way around. In my opinion, the first thing that needs to be set is the overall plot, there needs to be a thread that runs throughout the story and weaves it all together. Characters are a great way to expand that story and add some depth to it. Through them you can also give some foreshadowing. But interesting characters without an interesting story doesn't make for a good piece of entertainment in my eyes *cough*The Force Awakens*cough*. The entire plot, however, can be phrased as, "Character A did this, then Character B did that." That's a plot. Character actions can be 100% plot and plot can be 100% character actions. And that's fine - in that case, there's a perfect marriage between the two. What sucks is when one or the other is sacrificed.
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Post by theorigcylonhybrid on Mar 1, 2017 6:47:30 GMT
From interview: (one of many regarding this conception) Personally I think it's a misconception. Plot comes from characters and aid the characterization in return. The bond between Shepard and Ashley when they romance in my playthrough is aided by the fact that they're caught in dire events that make their fate uncertain, that they just lost their mutual friend Kaidan on Virmire and share that loss, that when we learned about the truth about "Sovereign" Ashley can react in frustration over her inability to fight back when the Reapers come. This all makes the bonding more contextualized. It's not just Shepard and Ashley talking because the two happen to be on the same team and they stumble into each other. It's these two bonding because they're going through the same story-events together and that puts them in a similar position. It remains to be seen however the story-character relation works in Andromeda but all sneak-peaks and interviews, whether it's Fabrice or Mac Walters seem to reinforce this idea that "Story is less important, because people like the characters the most." but IMO you can't just remove a part of the recipe and expect the overall taste will be as spicy. Somewhere along the line the characters will inevitably feel less memorable as a result of reducing a story they can share as a team. The more you reduce the impact of plot, the more the character/relationships turn towards meandering. Now erase my paragraph in your head and read the interview excerpt again, take it at face value -- do you agree with what Fabrice says about story vs characters? The plot and characterisation have to complement one another like wine and cheese. If one is poor, the other will suffer.
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Post by forthewynne on Mar 1, 2017 7:24:24 GMT
ME2, for me personally, proves that it's more about the characters.
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Post by lastpawn on Mar 1, 2017 7:48:50 GMT
Characters and story aren't two completely separate categories. Whether a work is plot-driven or character-driven, the two need to work hand-in-hand.
This is like "making a story" 101.
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Post by theorigcylonhybrid on Mar 1, 2017 12:07:31 GMT
Its about both!!!!!!!! There is no 'or' about it. If one is weak, so is the other.
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Post by kingjuly on Mar 1, 2017 12:10:48 GMT
Id agree that its about both but probably a teensy bit more on the character side. Dragon Age has been more about the world (which is why you switch main character every game) whereas Mass Effect has traditionally been more about the characters IN the world. Either way I dont feel as though either one will be sacrificed for the other so its not really an issue.
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Post by corpusdei on Mar 1, 2017 13:23:23 GMT
ME2 - hailed by many as the greatest in the trilogy - is basically 99% characters; the story can be summarized as "find the bug base, and blow it up (or not)" - about on a par with Starship Troopers. Working on the plot as it was built from ME1, ME2 is basically just an elaborate side-quest - a way to ensure the galaxy isn't better prepared for the Reaper invasion - it could have been a standalone title.
BioWare have been essentially rehashing the "big bad" story since NWN - the characters, and with ME3, the multiplayer, are basically the main reasons to play now.
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Post by mmoblitz on Mar 1, 2017 13:34:47 GMT
It appears to me that ME:A is about the combat and story/Characters are taking a back seat in this one. From what they have shown, the writing is sub-par. I'm guessing the story will take more emphasis this time around. The characters all seem too lighthearted about everything. Like nobody is really worried about anything.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2017 13:44:26 GMT
Its about both. What i miss most in recent Bioware games is a memorable villain. I will give Solas the approval stamp because he is great, when it actually happens. If they use Trespasser as a mold for DA:4 then i am sold on that.
I want the likes of Jon Irenicus, Loghain and Saren back. I want to cheer when the villain shows up, or hate them if they are horrible people and in some cases even symphatize with them. That is the one element that lacks in the most recent Bioware games, for me to fully enjoy them.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Mar 1, 2017 14:09:45 GMT
Characters and story aren't two completely separate categories. Whether a work is plot-driven or character-driven, the two need to work hand-in-hand. This is like "making a story" 101. Which is why, I'm cool I guess, when Fabrice says it because he's a producer dude, so he actually gets to be misconstrued about it but Mac - a writer - says it as his creative direction for the team and that's when I worry. If you fail to understand the actual cogwheels of characters vs plot you're bound to make both of them kind of lame. If you make a plot solely around making your characters be in the right places to make it feel tied together but they aren't actually interesting as characters you fail, and similarly if you write a bunch of good characters that have no plot to tie their stories into a larger whole (like good stories do) you kinda fail too. The good thing about video games in particular is that they're like a more entertaining and visual form of literature. They're more comparable to novels than books in the sense that they both take much more than 2.5 hours to see through and because games are often wannabe movies with their cutscenes and cinematic tropes, they get to have multiple movies in one game but if one was to fully utilize the media for storytelling they'd know it's better to make a video game like a full-length novel instead. A 1000 page novel is bound to also show multiple stories or multiple POVs, maybe time skips and whatnot. Gaming is usually tied to experiencing a story through a single protagonist whereas cutscenes and other stuff is used to pan the story across other POVs but if you're not careful you'll just end up making multiple different stories in a long game that don't relate enough to each other while that 1000 page novel usually has a point that ties into its overall message about the various POV shifts. This is, to me, what BioWare has both done really well but also failed at. ME3 was actually an example of them making a good novel-esque narrative just like ME1. It's different stories and the cutscenes sometimes show us what other characters are doing simultaneously, but in the end the story (supposedly) comes together to make all the subplots add into the main plot. In Inquisition the rather big focus on companions didn't add this element in my opinion, and I think it's because, much like ME:A, the devs said "Let's start by writing the characters and figure out the plot" or something. A few do tie well into the main plot like Vivienne, Leliana and Cassandra being closely tied to the Divine Justinia subplot and the state of Orlais and theme of Faith while Solas also has an undercurrent of significant story-importance that is brilliantly handled, but Josephine, Blackwall, Varric, Iron Bull, Sera, Dorian, they're all just sort of there and their character arcs have nothing significantly to do with the particular plot of DA:I. They are small vignettes of something to characterize the setting of Thedas outside the confines of DA:I's narrative framework (Bull is the Qunari and Dorian is Teviner. Tevinter = DA4, not DA:I - at least he's foreshadowing), and unlike ME2 their individual, wildly different, stories don't share a common theme (in ME2, as hamfisted as it is, it's "loyalty" and "closure") because the DA:I narrative doesn't have an impressive finale that accounts for the preceding plot well enough. I'm slightly worried Andromeda's final mission will also make the focus on exploration and loyalty missions have less impact in hindsight. Like, the best case scenario for Andromeda is that the citizen of the Arks, particularly your squad, will be an actual focus to the plot much like the crew in Babylon 5 or Battlestar Galactica, and similarly our new friends and enemies, the Angara and Kett (and Remnants) are all part of a bigger narrative that ties together too so it's not just a series of vignettes to merely do this and that because the setting allows it. Mac has said in the past that he loves Mass Effect for giving him the ability to tell whatever kind of story he wants to because of its setting. I just don't want that to mean that from story-beat to story-beat Andromeda will juggle between genre and focus all because the writers decided to give each character their own isolated themes and concepts.
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Post by akaranzo on Mar 1, 2017 17:27:20 GMT
I think the last Star Wars movie proved to me that characters should serve the story, not the other way around. In my opinion, the first thing that needs to be set is the overall plot, there needs to be a thread that runs throughout the story and weaves it all together. Characters are a great way to expand that story and add some depth to it. Through them you can also give some foreshadowing. But interesting characters without an interesting story doesn't make for a good piece of entertainment in my eyes *cough*The Force Awakens*cough*. The entire plot, however, can be phrased as, "Character A did this, then Character B did that." That's a plot. Character actions can be 100% plot and plot can be 100% character actions. And that's fine - in that case, there's a perfect marriage between the two. What sucks is when one or the other is sacrificed. Absolutely, they are both essential for a good story. And the perfect story should combine and balance both story and characters equally. But often there is either more focus on story or more focus on characters and if that's the case then it is better if that focus is a bit more leaned towards the plot, because interesting characters with no real purpose is a waste of time. A great plot with weak characters can be a bit disappointing, but it still has more entertainment value than the option where the majority of the focus is on the characters, not the plot. That's how I see it at least.
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Post by fiannawolf on Mar 1, 2017 17:53:45 GMT
When plot and characters combine to make for an excellent story, that whole narrative just jells, to the point that its considered a classic.
IE: KOTOR, Fallout 1, Plancescape Torment, System Shock 2, Arcanum...ect ect.
Or even in Books like Dune or Starship Troopers or LOTR. There's a reason they are classics and still sell fairly well today.
So I think both aspects are very important.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2017 18:45:18 GMT
I'm going to say that character trumps story - for me, anyway.
I'm reminded of the old thing that asks "If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?" (The correct answer, of course, is that while it would create sound waves, if noone with an auditory system to convert the sound waves into experienced sound is around, then no sound is generated.) In and of itself, an event (the tree falling) or a series of events doesn't create a particularly interesting story without characters to experience those events. Without characters to tie things together, a story is little more than a sequence of events.
I would also suggest that the concept of character implies story. Characters generally have backstories that are part and parcel of who they are, and how they became. I mean, that's pretty much what biographies are - a focus on someone's life story, their experiences and accomplishments, etc.
Also, there are a limited number of stories to be told, and we've heard them all before. What differentiates them are the world in which they're set (and its lore), and nuances of characters and what they need to overcome to find success. Indeed, there is also a limited set of character archetypes used in most storytelling, but how well they are used will have a lot to do with our reaction to characters.
Where RPGs are concerned, the story of any given playthrough emerges as the game is played. It's created via the choices made by the PC, along with the player's headcanon and filling in of any empty spaces provided. If a game's story isn't malleable, it may as well be consumed as a movie instead of a game.
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mango1smoothie
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Jade Empire
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Post by mango1smoothie on Mar 1, 2017 18:54:12 GMT
Plot story is very important, but if you have a story with tremendous characters than people will let the story slide if it's an average story. For me Mass Effect was never about the main plot. Which I thought was enjoyable in all three games, but none of them are really great stories on their own. Mass Effect is about the characters and side plots involving those characters. That's what draws me to Mass Effect, or any scifi in general, are the characters and the relationships/development they encounter throughout the story.
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Kabraxal
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Post by Kabraxal on Mar 1, 2017 18:57:05 GMT
I'm going to say that character trumps story - for me, anyway. I'm reminded of the old thing that asks "If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?" (The correct answer, of course, is that while it would create sound waves, if noone with an auditory system to convert the sound waves into experienced sound is around, then no sound is generated.) In and of itself, an event (the tree falling) or a series of events doesn't create a particularly interesting story without characters to experience those events. Without characters to tie things together, a story is little more than a sequence of events. I would also suggest that the concept of character implies story. Characters generally have backstories that are part and parcel of who they are, and how they became. I mean, that's pretty much what biographies are - a focus on someone's life story, their experiences and accomplishments, etc. Also, there are a limited number of stories to be told, and we've heard them all before. What differentiates them are the world in which they're set (and its lore), and nuances of characters and what they need to overcome to find success. Indeed, there is also a limited set of character archetypes used in most storytelling, but how well they are used will have a lot to do with our reaction to characters. Where RPGs are concerned, the story of any given playthrough emerges as the game is played. It's created via the choices made by the PC, along with the player's headcanon and filling in of any empty spaces provided. If a game's story isn't malleable, it may as well be consumed as a movie instead of a game. Random philosophical aside: if a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it... does it or this forest even exist?
Sorry, had to
Speaking of philosophy though... I'd love to argue with a character in a Bioware game about some really esoteric philosophy that doesnt' matter. That would be awesome.
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