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Post by spacebeetle on Mar 16, 2017 21:55:21 GMT
Hello everyone and welcome to this topic. I decided to open this discussion to offer some points of view that come to me regarding the upcoming Mass Effect: Andromeda. And because the scope of the thread will be a little wider (and more important, I hope) than the mere bashing of our “AI to be”, the choice of posting it here seemed natural. Feel free to disagree and move me, if you deem it necessary.
Also, be advised that this OP will contain unmarked spoiler: if you don’t want to (know and) discuss about plot elements revealed in the videos circulating on the net, you should not be here.
Ready? Ok… So, SAM: I’ve to admit the more I know about SAM, the more my doubts about it multiply. What SAM both represents and what it presence in Andromeda forces to consider regarding the lore of Mass Effect, are big questions. Things though, that could be completely ignored in their implication for the plot of ME:A, and personally I think it would probably be for the best… less complications this way. Still, the magnitude of how “theme changing” SAM is should be highlighted properly imo: something that up until now has been kept pretty low key. To make some order in an otherwise aimless wall of text, I’ve tried to split all of my issues with SAM in 3 macro-areas:
1) What I consider “legacy” problems, originated from the Mass effect trilogy. 2) What I consider “Andromeda” related problems, for the implications SAM has and should have. 3) Head canons, extrapolations and free for all speculation.
Not the most efficient way maybe, but bear with me: in short/ TLDR/ Summary as below.
Imo: 1) As long as a proper justification in game will not be given on how and why Artificial Intelligence should be good in Andromeda when they were not good in ME:Trilogy, it will persist a narrative dissonance that will hit most those who came to Andromeda from ME:T. 2) From a gameplay standpoint, SAM creates more problems than it solves with just it mere presence. And this without addressing the moral dilemmas it entails, which are many, difficult and deep: better to brush them off completely, or trying to confront them? You tell me. 3) Up until now, I feel the bond between pathfinder and SAM is portrayed in an overly simplistic way, without confronting the characters about the implications of such bond.
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Post by spacebeetle on Mar 16, 2017 21:55:31 GMT
1) LEGACY ISSUES.
Thinking deeply about the SAM subject, I have to admit part of the problems I have with it are the dissonances between ME:Trilogy and Andromeda regarding the matter of Artificial Intelligence. In ME:T, AI and organics don’t really intermingle: they oppose each other in many forms of conflict. The Reapers themselves, while being an anomaly even for other AI, remain both artificial constructs and the main enemy of the entire cycle. In ME:T, AIs are never quite portrayed as “evil” just because they exist, but it is make abundantly clear how much different organics and synthetics are for each other.
“Organics don’t know how we were created. Some say by chance. Some say by miracle: it’s a mystery. But synthetics knows we created them, and they know we are flawed… They are immortal, we are not. They see time as an illusion: we are trapped by its limitations. Above all, machines know the reasons why they were created...
Now, we could discuss aimlessly how much absolute truth (if something like that even exists) this Javik quote possess. But we must recognize this stance was an important part of the ME story. The conflict between Geth and the Quarian, the Geth themselves, their possible redemption through Legion, their second fall in ME3 aligning with the Reapers… All matters in which we, as players, had a say: we could decide the “how” in solving the incompatibilities the story presented us with between organics and synthetics. Still, since the get(h) go, in the ME:T it is offered and vehiculated through the story (good or bad here doesn’t really matter) how much we’re different. But, and this I think it’s an important distinction and a “good” theme, it is presented too that all of these differences are not necessarily made to divide us, nor to tear us apart or condemn us to mutually assured destruction: instead, they can be of help in defining ourselves better. Organics and synthetics need (or can have the needs of) each other simply because one helps defining the other. Simply put: how much does encountering Legions reshape our vision of Quarian’s history and culture? The theory that conflict is inevitable between organic and synthetics is bogus for me simply because of this axiom: no one can truly know itself alone. In this sense, even the horror we can feel in front of “Project Overlord” highlight something about our own humanity. We can sympathize with EDI because while different (or depicted as so), she isn’t incompatible with our ideals or goals. She can become a member of the crew.
BUT, by the time of Andromeda Initiative, all of this is not yet ready to be established: AI is launched between ME1 and ME2, right after the Geth attack on the Citadel. So, in a moment when the paranoia in universe against artificial intelligence is stronger than ever, and rightfully so, because AIs attacked and almost conquered the Citadel. Never the less, what do we have as caretakers for all the trip to Andromeda? Yep, 4 AIs, one for every Ark. I suppose VIs were too safe to use? I mean, if Avina could manage the Citadel, how hard can it be? This is the core of the dissonance I talked about before. Now, even if the vast majority of the colonists were kept in the dark about being about to be given in custody to AIs (but we should have consequences of this in Andromeda), I question at least HOW the heads of the Initiative all agreed on something like this. Especially considering the specific ability of the SAM AIs: to interface directly to organic minds. Just this is simply too big for my suspension of disbelief, but it gets worse (more on this later). The fact that a single idealist was able to produce a new kind of AI in a time where AI was hated more than ever, is of no consequence to me (but let’s not forget it): the fact that Alec was able to convince so many people to trust completely his vision about AI, IS. To the point, that when we get the Andromeda, the presence of SAMs seems to be a no brainer, or worse: everyone seems ready to embrace it. WHAT? 634 years of cryogenic sleeps and 5 years of game development later doesn’t mean I forgot everything I had before…
But in any case, this dissonance isn’t necessarily a bad thing per se: for me though, and I suppose for other ME:T veterans, it’s the abruptness of the change that hits the most. We are forced to look at AIs the other way around, expunging the (almost) opposite stance of ME:T, while lacking a convincing explanation as why it is so and why it should be so this time around… But maybe it’s just me.
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Post by spacebeetle on Mar 16, 2017 21:55:41 GMT
2) ANDROMEDA ISSUES.
Gameplay wise, I must admit I find zero sense in the resources SAM adds to the table for Ryder. For starters, where does it came from the eezo you use when switching from a tech loadout to a biotic one? Duh? Is Ryder a latent biotic? Habitat 7 atmosphere screwed us over when we breathed its air? Just think about it a moment… And while I understand (but don’t condone) the limitation to only 3 powers at a time, I really don’t understand why SAM has been needed to justify the ability of the player to learn multi-disciplinary abilities. Forcing such a mechanic AND using SAM to justify it, seems silly and overcomplicating. Mmhh… more like over overcomplicating it: like solving a problem that wasn’t even there applying quantum physics to create it… You BECOME the pathfinder: it is in the job description to learn different abilities to complete your job. Should I believe among the 100’000 colonists we brought with us, no one was willingly to earn some credits to teach our Ryder how to best push, throw or simply mod our omnitool to incinerate things? You want to plug Ryder to an AI because it’s a core element of the plot? Please do: I’m very curious to know what is the aim and the need, but forcing SAM to be plugged just to fight (again, something in the Pathfinder’s very job description) seems shallow and empty as reasons go. And more: while Alec was an idealist (how much misguided is moot here) and built a wonder of an AI, he plugged SAM to himself out of free will, knowing full well the dangers of such an action. And I’m even cool with it… But after: a) daddy dearest passes away we discover that he got beyond the backs of everyone, reshaping human condition on the road to organic and synthetic reunification c) he created an AI able to interface with organics brains (this is the kind of shit that changes the course of history forever people!). d) that very AI is now directly plugged to our brain e) the AI itself can’t explain everything to us because Alec himself kept files locked away from us f) our brother/sister is in a coma g) we must save the day, outnumbered, outgunned and in uncharted territory. The reaction of our character to all of the above can’t simply be “It’s cool, let’s go adventuring.” WHAT? The other characters too should have at least SOME reserves about all of this: T’Perro though? “Thanks for sharing this with me, Ryder, but we’re cool. Just keep an eye on Drack please.” If you really want Andromeda to possess a lighter tone than ME:A, you MUST balance those elements with the direction of the story and justify them in a believable way. I can’t stay silent about this, sorry: for me, it is terrible writing if a character is subjected to all of the above with zero mental consequences. Can we sympathize fully with a character that has no character? Who is unable to relate with the plot elements he is the protagonist of? Of course, not! And it’s terrible when that same character is the main hero of the story… From what I’ve seen until now, the premises for ME:A are at best a confused mish-mash of word shattering, important revelations who are immediately devaluated for no good reasons. Wouldn’t have been better to stay silent about them at all? To try something else? Putting something in a plot because “rule of cool” is the poorest kind of act I can think of to begin a new story: it doesn’t work, it is nonsensical and it leaves the worst kind of impression. I really hope the rest of the game will solve and address all of this, but I have to admit the premises are not good for now… and we’re one week before launch.
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Post by spacebeetle on Mar 16, 2017 21:55:53 GMT
3) HEAD CANONS, EXTRAPOLATIONS AND FREE FOR ALL SPECULATION.
Please note that, up until now, I’ve not even tried to address the complexities of the SAM issue from a philosophical, or ethical stand point (or even juridical!). I will not do it here, because it’s a discussion with an immense scope, but as an anti-nihilist, I really would like to know what platonic dialectic have to say on the matter (and here I mean you). Allow me instead to offer some prompts on the SAM condition after it is bound to the Pathfinder:
A) Are we playing as SAM? Because Scott/Sarah dies for 22 seconds (rule of cool/of drama?), what wakes up next is still a human? Or are we the memories of Scott/Sara “reloaded” by SAM in a convenient organic container to animate a body? Would we even be able to tell the difference? Don’t think so, but this thin difference is everything that should matter for a human, and the plot simply ignores it.
B)Even if a) doesn’t apply, are we still human? And more important, ourselves? I’m afraid we can’t consider Ryder as a human anymore after SAM is plugged. At most, we become a post human. Should this be important from a plot standpoint? HECK YEAH! We’re charged at the start of the game to lay the foundations for colonies destined to cultures we’re not a part of anymore. As an individual, Ryder is alone like no one has been before: even in a crowd, Ryder will always be alone, with no true equal, thanks to SAM. Of course, this is assuming we are not in fact simply a body governed by a high level VI at this point (oh the irony of the puppet who thinks to be alive).
C) Because both Cora and Liam should be both chipped with SAM (even with a different kind of connection than Ryder), are we part of a “Thorian Like” gestalt? Where SAM is the new Thorian? But don’t mind me, I’m not even addressing the implication of this one…
D) How fucked up is the bond between Ryder and SAM from the very start? On this side, we have an AI who lost it creator: a fully realized AI, so a being with a conscience, emotions (even if low keys) and a being who knows the difference between good and evil (simply because it is able to define such difference in a way or another). SO, SAM knows to be an illegal and high controversial existence and that is bad (up to a certain point) that Alec hid its true nature from the authorities. This being also had in Alec the only person who could trust implicitly: a kind and wise creator, an idealist, a genius and someone who gave it the first window to the world. On the other side instead, we have the reason why all of the above sacrificed himself. Mmhh… This should beg the question, how does SAM view Ryder? With jealousy or even hatred? Because in the end, saving the son/daughter was more important to Alec than keeping his relation with SAM? Or with adoration and awe? Because it wise creator considered the son/daughter more important than his very life? In any case, I think that because of Alec’s sacrifice, the bond between the two is warped for the very start and not necessarily in a good way: let’s not forget SAM experienced the death of Alec directly in first person view, with a complete record of his brain dying for the lack of oxygen. I don’t think it’s such a positive memory to have… How the learning of “death” can change the views of an immortal consciousness? Now that it knows what loss means, and how much does it sucks to die, how SAM is changed from the experience? Which brings me directly to the last point of this ramble:
E) How far can (potentially) the bond between SAM and Ryder go? Let’s assume SAM is unable to be malevolent (Which is not so certain, people. At most is wishful thinking!) and that the Ryders are truly the prophets of the ushering of the new age for the human consciousness. That the horror of the symbiotic relation between Zha and Zha’til from the ME:T will not happen again (why it should not, I don’t know: up until know I fail to grasp a significant difference between Zha/Zha’Til and SAM/Pathfinder). Even then, beyond all of this baggage, both SAM and the Pathfinder have a mission to uphold: to find habitable planets for the Initiative. To which well-intentioned extremes could the symbiotic relationship between SAM and Ryder go to uphold the mission? What if SAM is actively preventing Ryder to feel the sadness and the loss of Alec (and potentially his/her twin), to better uphold the mission? What if SAM is using our implants to makes us happier and more productive? Something that, specifications wise, it could do. An artificial dulling of the pain: a fake serenity, forced on us to uphold a purpose (very machine like, don’t you think?). Should anyone have this kind of power on anyone? Would you allow it on yourself? Normally I would say no… but in Andromeda the shit is already quad deep when we arrive. Do we have the right to say no? And does it mean anything our struggle to define our new self (selves) in lights of these elements?
In any cases, I think that all of this issues (and more) should be addressed in game: it would be what defines a good story telling. Exploring the implications of key plot elements and how the characters (and main characters) relate with it. But it would not be easy, and it would be pointless to do it in a shallow way: without adding the bad reactions a second “red&blue&green” would cause, I think the writers of Bioware overstretched quite much their plot regarding SAM. Maybe too much.
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Post by duskwanderer on Mar 16, 2017 23:46:24 GMT
That's a lot to take in, but clinical death can be reversed even with our own technology, if it hasn't happened for very long. Usually, such a thing is confirmed by asystole (a lack of a heartbeat), but that could be started again.
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Post by rahavan on Mar 17, 2017 2:58:37 GMT
Well OP that was a lot to read and I skimmed it a bit, tbh, but you bring up a lot of good points. This whole thing with SAM brings up many questions (and the fact we can't say wait I'm not comfortable with this is annoying). But this is why I don't like the idea of this in the slightest. There's too many questions brought up and I doubt bioware can properly discuss and explore the topic of trans-humanism to an audience where people still have trouble with agreeing on issues that we face today (LGBT rights and abortion to name a few). Discussing a topic that's well out of humanities reach is not what I want from a video game. I hope bioware doesn't try to delve into the topic I don't see it going well.
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Post by SwobyJ on Mar 17, 2017 6:36:31 GMT
Full transhumanism 100% all the way!
Knew it.
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Post by spacebeetle on Mar 17, 2017 9:13:51 GMT
Full transhumanism 100% all the way! Knew it. I’m afraid it’s not that simple either. If ME:A really wishes to offer prompts on post humanism, they should be at least integrated in the plot: from what I’ve seen up until now, I’m not so sure this has been done. Imo, it is wrong to simply brushing off the implications of transhumanism because “rule of cool”: transhumanism is nor something so well defined, nor so believed in, that it can be accepted willy-nilly by everyone (especially it consequences). And doubly so when transhumanism elements in ME:A are depicted as suitable and pleasant to everyone: something that represents a complete reversal of the stances about this very same matters from ME:T, without giving proper reasons on the whys. It is a dissonance that should be addressed, imo: an imaginative fissure the size of a canyon. If transhumanism is too big as a whole to “fit” in ME:A plot (and it is), it would have been enough (and important enough) to offer some prompts on it, i.e.: 1) what is the measure of post human? 2) how humans and post humans should care for each other?
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Post by Ahriman on Mar 17, 2017 10:59:27 GMT
Interesting points
That was clinical death, brain cells can sustain up to 15 minutes of it without getting critically damaged.
Same here.
Mental wise Ryders are still pretty much human, since SAM only acts as advanced encyclopedia/tech interface. Physically... well, Shepard was cyborg-zombie, I guess ME fans are used to such protagonists. Nice touch by writers in Codex btw, when some entries have "you" and "me" in them. A bit creepy, but actually helps immersion.
I personally couldn't buy Daddy's explanation. "It can't betray you, because it uses you as it's sensors", yeah, that's very reassuring. But this message felt almost like writer's direct speech (it's more of an intuition on my part, hard to explain), so I'm almost sure it won't be malicious on purpose.
From technical point of view with SAM's control over Ryder's body it's quite possible, not actually interfere in thought process, but suppressing noradrenaline production, for example, would be like a piece of cake for it. Meta-wise I think, writers won't delve into it, since it would make a player feel uncomfortable.
I don't expect much, personally. More likely it will be destroyed at some point, so writers won't have to dig into these issues.
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Post by spacebeetle on Mar 17, 2017 17:15:26 GMT
Interesting points That was clinical death, brain cells can sustain up to 15 minutes of it without getting critically damaged.I don't expect much, personally. More likely it will be destroyed at some point, so writers won't have to dig into these issues. About the clinical death, I care little for the body hardware. I mean more the mind software: for 22 seconds, the consciousness of Ryder wasn’t present. SAM could have done anything to it (even nothing): the point is, we wouldn’t know: 1) SAM could have expunged some memories (or revaluated them) to make the transition more palatable to Ryder. We would have now a “SAM tailored Ryder” as driver to the body. This could be used to explain why Ryder seems to have so little grudges against SAM, when it research sent Alec’s career belly up, and made him toxic to the Alliance’s brass. 2) Ryder is dead, and what now drives the body are his/her memories filtered through a copy of SAM. A copy who could not know to be a copy. This could be used to explain the apparent aloofness of Ryder in game. He/she/it only has memories of humanity. No direct experience. 3) Ryder’s consciousness has been warped somehow to better uphold the mission. This could be used to explain why he/she doesn’t care about any of the above… And so on… And I sadly think too SAM would be better off if killed, possibly in a way that makes certain Ryder is still human. SAM is simply too much to keep on going as it is. And it would be very difficult to settle all of the issues it generates while existing, in a satisfactory way. Which begs the question, what is the opposite to plot armour? Doomed existence?
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Post by Ahriman on Mar 17, 2017 17:34:42 GMT
Interesting points That was clinical death, brain cells can sustain up to 15 minutes of it without getting critically damaged.I don't expect much, personally. More likely it will be destroyed at some point, so writers won't have to dig into these issues. About the clinical death, I care little for the body hardware. I mean more the mind software: for 22 seconds, the consciousness of Ryder wasn’t present. SAM could have done anything to it (even nothing): the point is, we wouldn’t know: 1) SAM could have expunged some memories (or revaluated them) to make the transition more palatable to Ryder. We would have now a “SAM tailored Ryder” as driver to the body. This could be used to explain why Ryder seems to have so little grudges against SAM, when it research sent Alec’s career belly up, and made him toxic to the Alliance’s brass. 2) Ryder is dead, and what now drives the body are his/her memories filtered through a copy of SAM. A copy who could not know to be a copy. This could be used to explain the apparent aloofness of Ryder in game. He/she/it only has memories of humanity. No direct experience. 3) Ryder’s consciousness has been warped somehow to better uphold the mission. This could be used to explain why he/she doesn’t care about any of the above… And so on… If that's the case you are talking about then Ryder is asleep 8 hours a day. No need to look for hard way.
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Post by spacebeetle on Mar 17, 2017 17:40:17 GMT
About the clinical death, I care little for the body hardware. I mean more the mind software: for 22 seconds, the consciousness of Ryder wasn’t present. SAM could have done anything to it (even nothing): the point is, we wouldn’t know: 1) SAM could have expunged some memories (or revaluated them) to make the transition more palatable to Ryder. We would have now a “SAM tailored Ryder” as driver to the body. This could be used to explain why Ryder seems to have so little grudges against SAM, when it research sent Alec’s career belly up, and made him toxic to the Alliance’s brass. 2) Ryder is dead, and what now drives the body are his/her memories filtered through a copy of SAM. A copy who could not know to be a copy. This could be used to explain the apparent aloofness of Ryder in game. He/she/it only has memories of humanity. No direct experience. 3) Ryder’s consciousness has been warped somehow to better uphold the mission. This could be used to explain why he/she doesn’t care about any of the above… And so on… If that's the case you are talking about then Ryder is asleep 8 hours a day. No need to look for hard way. Yeah, but even asleep the mind would know at some level: dreaming doesn't really stop cognitive functions. Those 22 seconds of clinical death seem a little too convenient to me.
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Post by bizantura on Mar 18, 2017 13:48:09 GMT
You bring very interesting points to the table. However, I do not expect "games" to do anything more than help spreading popular memes like transhumanism. The idea is to give that "rule of cool" for the most part and avoid any questions let alone answering any of them. At best the game will bring you in a "feel good dilemma" with a choice + outcome so you can feel good again, helping in promoting the transhumanistic agenda's. But I play solely out of escapism and would never want to live in a world à la Mass Effect previous series or this soft reboot, I simply like to get lost in that "hero archetype" from time to time and Bioware's little interacion stories. This scientist speaks about a quantum computer. Not sure he is speaking as a scientist but more as an diciple of a new religion but you decide for yourself if you are interested. forbiddenknowledgetv.net/Quantum-Computing-and-Three-Dangerous-Predictions/
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Post by timebean on Mar 18, 2017 14:54:43 GMT
Just had a wee comment to make in this awesome discussion. The very things you brought up in point #3 are in many ways why I felt a bit...dirty (?) in the synthesis ending of ME3. To fundamentally change organic life by forcing all life to become partially synthetic? To force that upon them for peace...it seemed so Orwellian to me. It was a gross violation of living rights, imo. And the whole rainbow epilogue voiced by EDI...it gave me chills. I couldn't help but feel like she was selling me something. And I couldn't stop imagining resistance groups rebelling against such a violation, being suppressed and/or ignored in the new "golden age". For me, the only place that is "safe harbor" in this life (and this universe) is the privacy of my own mind. And if someone told me that I could live for ever, but I would have to give that up? I couldn't. I would refuse. I don't care if that means I would miss out on a golden age, continuing to eek out an existence in a universe that is passing me by. Even if it meant death. I would never want to give up myself so completely. But maybe I am just being naive! After all, this mind/soul/consciousness/perception of reality is all I know. And we humans do tend to cling to the familiar!
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Post by vertigomez on Mar 18, 2017 15:30:45 GMT
I'm not too hung up on all of this, but the idea of Ceiling SAM watching us masturbate rustles my jimmies. :srs:
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Post by eaglepursuit on Mar 18, 2017 16:08:05 GMT
I'm just now playing the early access this weekend. I just got to the scene where SAM speaks to Ryder in private.
I'm quite intrigued to see where this plot line goes.
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Post by spacebeetle on Mar 18, 2017 16:59:06 GMT
You bring very interesting points to the table. However, I do not expect "games" to do anything more than help spreading popular memes like transhumanism. The idea is to give that "rule of cool" for the most part and avoid any questions let alone answering any of them. At best the game will bring you in a "feel good dilemma" with a choice + outcome so you can feel good again, helping in promoting the transhumanistic agenda's. But I play solely out of escapism and would never want to live in a world à la Mass Effect previous series or this soft reboot, I simply like to get lost in that "hero archetype" from time to time and Bioware's little interacion stories. This scientist speaks about a quantum computer. Not sure he is speaking as a scientist but more as an diciple of a new religion but you decide for yourself if you are interested. forbiddenknowledgetv.net/Quantum-Computing-and-Three-Dangerous-Predictions/My point exactly. But I think that if you want to spread such a message (or any other) you should properly integrate it in your plot and address any dissonance it causes with your characters and/or previous established meme in universe (as I try to address in my first point of “Legacy issues”). Something I’m failing to see up until now in Andromeda.
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Post by spacebeetle on Mar 18, 2017 17:04:42 GMT
I'm not too hung up on all of this, but the idea of Ceiling SAM watching us masturbate rustles my jimmies. :srs: I think that something like this, in one way or another, would rustle the jimmies of everyone; in my case I would question myself quite deeply if I’m… responsible enough, I suppose, to be the world’s window for an AI… I don’t think I would be a very good window…
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Post by spacebeetle on Mar 18, 2017 17:06:02 GMT
I'm just now playing the early access this weekend. I just got to the scene where SAM speaks to Ryder in private. I'm quite intrigued to see where this plot line goes. I dread and hope if "somewhere" is the answer...
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Post by Space Cowboy on Mar 19, 2017 14:50:45 GMT
My WAG is SAM is the collected memories of Ellen Ryder
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Post by spacebeetle on Mar 19, 2017 14:57:04 GMT
My WAG is SAM is the collected memories of Ellen Ryder
Is there even some doubt about this? I mean, I wouldn't be surprised either if after we reconnect the 4 Arks to the Nexus, the SAMs awoken their core personality from which they originated from...
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Post by Addictress on Mar 19, 2017 15:12:55 GMT
The complexity of this discussion is more than the actual story deserves.
It's SAM merging with Ryder so he becomes superpowered. That's all it was presented as. It didn't even have the foreshadowing and trilogy-long thematic motifs like the AI vs. organic topic did in the original trilogy.
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Post by spacebeetle on Mar 19, 2017 15:42:55 GMT
The complexity of this discussion is more than the actual story deserves. It's SAM merging with Ryder so he becomes superpowered. That's all it was presented as. It didn't even have the foreshadowing and trilogy-long thematic motifs like the AI vs. organic topic did in the original trilogy. Maybe, but brushing all off while staying silent on the matter isn't fine either for me. Personally, I don't even particularly like the concept of transhumanism, but abusing it in such a way just to further the Andromeda’s plot, without addressing its consequences even in passing is wrong. It's wrong... and shallow.
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Post by armass81 on Mar 19, 2017 15:56:04 GMT
Yeah this is Mac Walters again all right, didnt expect the story to pan out any greater.
But its been like this since the ME2 tbh. I mean there Shepard died, he crashed into the planet and burned in the atmosphere and then they managed to bring him back...? And the man never questions this, never ponders it, never makes more effort to go deeper what cerberus might have done to him(just trust Miranda and TIM yes), he just merrily accepts it all as "i got better" "ok lets help cerberus". The series has been downhill from there lore wise, cause they just keep handwaving things away when its convenient.
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Post by Addictress on Mar 19, 2017 16:32:01 GMT
The complexity of this discussion is more than the actual story deserves. It's SAM merging with Ryder so he becomes superpowered. That's all it was presented as. It didn't even have the foreshadowing and trilogy-long thematic motifs like the AI vs. organic topic did in the original trilogy. Maybe, but brushing all off while staying silent on the matter isn't fine either for me. Personally, I don't even particularly like the concept of transhumanism, but abusing it in such a way just to further the Andromeda’s plot, without addressing its consequences even in passing is wrong. It's wrong... and shallow. Well I mean yes, it is wrong. It is shallow. That's my point. It is sad.
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