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Post by regandust on Mar 18, 2017 5:20:32 GMT
So I dunno if this has already gotten a topic, but what does everyone think about what we learned regarding the state of the genophage on the Andromeda Krogan. Incase you missed the conversation let me fill you in. Apparently the Krogan used the 600 year journey to Andromeda to perform some genetic modification on themselves while they slept, which resulted in the number of live Krogan births rising by forty percent. It isn't a cure for the genophage, but a lot more Krogan babies are gonna be born now.
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Post by SwobyJ on Mar 18, 2017 5:58:47 GMT
Viability to 4% (from 1%), not rising by 40%.
Considering how much is 100% viability (1000 a year), that's still a lot (40 a year from 10 a year), but not unmanageable.
Now instead of being despondent and angered, these krogan might end up measured and amicable.
Could this have happened in the Milky Way? Yes. Mordin 'made a mistake' by helping the genophage continue. And if the Reaper War didn't happen, maybe he would have just tweaked it better on his own mission, but events make it so its either 100% (cure) or 1% still (sabotage cure).
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Post by LilTIM on Mar 18, 2017 13:49:07 GMT
We need to make the genophage great again! Make it 0.5% only, and hold all fertile females hostage so the krogans will do what they're told, like the good cannon fodder they were always meant to be.
More seriously, having all the krogan from the same clan seems to me what is changing their prospects. As soon as internal turmoil and war starts, they'll be endangered species again.
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Post by Monica21 on Mar 18, 2017 14:27:26 GMT
So I dunno if this has already gotten a topic, but what does everyone think about what we learned regarding the state of the genophage on the Andromeda Krogan. I was pretty pleased actually. When I saw that as a conversation option my first thought was "Please don't make me cure/sabotage the genophage again." Hopefully we won't, and the Krogan will now procreate at sustainable numbers.
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Post by Petroshenko on Mar 18, 2017 14:40:23 GMT
I think they handled it well lore-wise. They didn't magically cure it to align with ME3 decisions yet they made it a bit less of an immediately pressing issue like in ME3
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Post by mikeymoonshine on Mar 18, 2017 15:14:01 GMT
It didn't make sense to me, gene therapy in stasis? I guess having it cured would just mean they would eventually take over Andromeda or something tho. Still it's another reminder that all your previous choices mean nothing now.
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Post by Monica21 on Mar 18, 2017 15:25:25 GMT
It didn't make sense to me, gene therapy in stasis? I guess having it cured would just mean they would eventually take over Andromeda or something tho. Still it's another reminder that all your previous choices mean nothing now. I mean, I don't understand how dark energy can be a cloud with mass, but there it is. As for choices, I'm not sure how a decision Shepard made after the Arks left would affect the Krogan in the Arks. I'm fairly sure it follows along with what Mordin tells you in ME3, too. The Krogan were already adapting and the genophage was no longer working or no longer as potent, and the Krogan used their time in the Arks to further the mutation.
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Post by mikeymoonshine on Mar 18, 2017 15:39:53 GMT
It didn't make sense to me, gene therapy in stasis? I guess having it cured would just mean they would eventually take over Andromeda or something tho. Still it's another reminder that all your previous choices mean nothing now. I mean, I don't understand how dark energy can be a cloud with mass, but there it is. As for choices, I'm not sure how a decision Shepard made after the Arks left would affect the Krogan in the Arks. I'm fairly sure it follows along with what Mordin tells you in ME3, too. The Krogan were already adapting and the genophage was no longer working or no longer as potent, and the Krogan used their time in the Arks to further the mutation. Sure of course, but that's why they left so early in the first place, So Bioware didn't have to deal with the choices players had made. That doesn't make sense either, so many characters saying they just randomly decided to go on a one way trip to an unknown galaxy, to leave their families and friends forever. Like they didn't even know if they would be able to settle on those planets.
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Post by Monica21 on Mar 18, 2017 16:19:12 GMT
Sure of course, but that's why they left so early in the first place, So Bioware didn't have to deal with the choices players had made. That doesn't make sense either, so many characters saying they just randomly decided to go on a one way trip to an unknown galaxy, to leave their families and friends forever. Like they didn't even know if they would be able to settle on those planets. From a purely meta-game perspective, it makes sense to have the world carry over in the same state it was at the end of ME2. And what's also true is that there are thousands and thousands of real-life humans who would say yes immediately to leaving for another galaxy and colonizing it. The galaxy had been scanned and possible "Golden Worlds" were picked out of that information, which is why you land where you do. Your trip to Andromeda has nothing to do with the Reaper invasion, it's purely to explore. It's the same reason explorers crossed oceans. I actually like that the Andromeda Initiative had nothing to do with saving species from the Reapers. So yes, it does make sense that Shepard's ME3 choices don't carry over, because the Arks were already gone.
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Post by LilTIM on Mar 18, 2017 18:26:19 GMT
If the krogan are frozen in their way to andromeda, how does the gene therapy works? All the cells would be frozen, unable to reproduce or change at all.
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Post by riou on Mar 18, 2017 18:30:18 GMT
If the krogan are frozen in their way to andromeda, how does the gene therapy works? All the cells would be frozen, unable to reproduce or change at all. Because stasis doesn't mean they're completely frozen stiff. They'd be dead if that were true. It's much more likely that they were put into a state where bodily processes were slowed to a comparative crawl.
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Post by dutchsghost7 on Mar 18, 2017 18:37:36 GMT
If the krogan are frozen in their way to andromeda, how does the gene therapy works? All the cells would be frozen, unable to reproduce or change at all. Because stasis doesn't mean they're completely frozen stiff. They'd be dead if that were true. It's much more likely that they were put into a state where bodily processes were slowed to a comparative crawl. That's assumption on your part as well though...
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Post by Monica21 on Mar 18, 2017 20:05:26 GMT
Because stasis doesn't mean they're completely frozen stiff. They'd be dead if that were true. It's much more likely that they were put into a state where bodily processes were slowed to a comparative crawl. That's assumption on your part as well though... Well, there are drugs that slow your bodily processes down, so it's a pretty good guess.
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Post by duskwanderer on Mar 18, 2017 20:36:02 GMT
Because stasis doesn't mean they're completely frozen stiff. They'd be dead if that were true. It's much more likely that they were put into a state where bodily processes were slowed to a comparative crawl. That's assumption on your part as well though... Not really. A complete stoppage of all cellular activity would be death: Cells would no longer get nutrients. Unless within those pods, time is shut off somehow. And truly, that's less plausible than an extreme form of hibernation.
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Post by dutchsghost7 on Mar 18, 2017 20:54:52 GMT
That's assumption on your part as well though... Not really. A complete stoppage of all cellular activity would be death: Cells would no longer get nutrients. Unless within those pods, time is shut off somehow. And truly, that's less plausible than an extreme form of hibernation. when you have to do mental hola hoops to explain your lore than you know somethings wrong.
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Post by duskwanderer on Mar 18, 2017 21:01:27 GMT
Not really. A complete stoppage of all cellular activity would be death: Cells would no longer get nutrients. Unless within those pods, time is shut off somehow. And truly, that's less plausible than an extreme form of hibernation. when you have to do mental hola hoops to explain your lore than you know somethings wrong. I say the same thing when you said people were timeless in cryo and woke up just fine.
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Post by LilTIM on Mar 18, 2017 21:04:17 GMT
If the krogan are frozen in their way to andromeda, how does the gene therapy works? All the cells would be frozen, unable to reproduce or change at all. Because stasis doesn't mean they're completely frozen stiff. They'd be dead if that were true. It's much more likely that they were put into a state where bodily processes were slowed to a comparative crawl. Ok but that doesn't address the main issue - the krogan adaptation spreads through the cells in those 600 years. If the body is hibernating, the cells are almost paralyzed, just active enough to keep the system alive. In that state i don't buy into cells mutating or reproducing, creating new ones that are genophage-resistant. The natural resistance came from natural evolution, lots of cells being created and destroyed, being frozen would stop any kind of cell development or mutation. That's like doing gene therapy to a frozen organ to cure a disease - it just wouldn't work
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Post by duskwanderer on Mar 18, 2017 21:07:41 GMT
Because stasis doesn't mean they're completely frozen stiff. They'd be dead if that were true. It's much more likely that they were put into a state where bodily processes were slowed to a comparative crawl. Ok but that doesn't address the main issue - the krogan adaptation spreads through the cells in those 600 years. If the body is hibernating, the cells are almost paralyzed, just active enough to keep the system alive. In that state i don't buy into cells mutating or reproducing, creating new ones that are genophage-resistant. The natural resistance came from natural evolution, lots of cells being created and destroyed, being frozen would stop any kind of cell development or mutation. That's like doing gene therapy to a frozen organ to cure a disease - it just wouldn't work Mordin did point out that the adaptation to the genophage was natural, evolution simply like any other natural hazard. Personally, I could see the krogan cells evolving outside of cryo (say, through controlled tests programmed by VI) and then the gene therapy is done after the krogan thaw. But, of course, I have no idea how any of their science works. Just like any other sci-fi story.
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Post by dmc1001 on Mar 19, 2017 0:43:43 GMT
It's interesting learning how the genophage was starting to fail (which we already knew since ME2) but I'm curious to see how this will be useful to them. Let's assume everything had gone as planned, all the arks arrived, and the golden worlds were ripe for colonization. Then assume the krogan choose one world for themselves. Then they start breeding at 100% efficiency. Where do they go? Do they overtake the other 6 golden worlds? Become conquerors of the natives of Andromeda? It's sketchy, at best, to assume this would work out for them. I like the idea of increased fertility/viability to give them hope but not a full on cure. (Yes, this contradicts my position in ME3, but I think there's enough non-Council space to go around for them.)
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Post by boyaki on Mar 19, 2017 2:11:18 GMT
Because stasis doesn't mean they're completely frozen stiff. They'd be dead if that were true. It's much more likely that they were put into a state where bodily processes were slowed to a comparative crawl. Ok but that doesn't address the main issue - the krogan adaptation spreads through the cells in those 600 years. If the body is hibernating, the cells are almost paralyzed, just active enough to keep the system alive. In that state i don't buy into cells mutating or reproducing, creating new ones that are genophage-resistant. The natural resistance came from natural evolution, lots of cells being created and destroyed, being frozen would stop any kind of cell development or mutation. That's like doing gene therapy to a frozen organ to cure a disease - it just wouldn't work Except it is not on cellular activity level, it is on genetic level and that can be altered way more easily. We know that they naturaly adapted to the genophage, this time they had 600 years to slightly increase the fertility rate to 4%. A lot of time for a small increase. Don't seem absurd to me.
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Post by Monica21 on Mar 19, 2017 4:30:59 GMT
It's interesting learning how the genophage was starting to fail (which we already knew since ME2) but I'm curious to see how this will be useful to them. Let's assume everything had gone as planned, all the arks arrived, and the golden worlds were ripe for colonization. Then assume the krogan choose one world for themselves. Then they start breeding at 100% efficiency. Where do they go? Do they overtake the other 6 golden worlds? Become conquerors of the natives of Andromeda? It's sketchy, at best, to assume this would work out for them. I like the idea of increased fertility/viability to give them hope but not a full on cure. (Yes, this contradicts my position in ME3, but I think there's enough non-Council space to go around for them.) I think this is where the percentages are important. Three to four percent increase in viability, which sounds like a much more sustainable birth rate. Not sure if it will stop there, or continue to rise as generations adapt, but I really don't want to have to make a decision about the genophage again.
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Post by dmc1001 on Mar 19, 2017 5:50:47 GMT
It's interesting learning how the genophage was starting to fail (which we already knew since ME2) but I'm curious to see how this will be useful to them. Let's assume everything had gone as planned, all the arks arrived, and the golden worlds were ripe for colonization. Then assume the krogan choose one world for themselves. Then they start breeding at 100% efficiency. Where do they go? Do they overtake the other 6 golden worlds? Become conquerors of the natives of Andromeda? It's sketchy, at best, to assume this would work out for them. I like the idea of increased fertility/viability to give them hope but not a full on cure. (Yes, this contradicts my position in ME3, but I think there's enough non-Council space to go around for them.) I think this is where the percentages are important. Three to four percent increase in viability, which sounds like a much more sustainable birth rate. Not sure if it will stop there, or continue to rise as generations adapt, but I really don't want to have to make a decision about the genophage again. Agreed. However, if it takes place over the course of generations it could work out. The krogan could become civilized - some are, even in MEA - and that more refined breed of krogan may not think birthing 1000 young is realistic.
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Post by ralph2449 on Mar 19, 2017 17:31:56 GMT
From what i understood Krogans can have a ridiculous birth rate if left unchecked without genophage, it is quite a worrysome thing since i also chose to sabotage the cure in me3, Wrex and Eva might be good but they are just 2 krogan, sooner or later they will die and there are no guarantees the successors wont fall to the trap of krogan rebellions again.
So if they start breeding a lot there is a chance they could become an issue, though maybe andromeda had different screening procedures and took the more calm and intelligent ones which suggests there is hope. Guess we will see in the game.
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Post by blackjimmy on Mar 19, 2017 17:54:51 GMT
I like it. It makes sense, plus we don't have to go through the genophage arc of the OT again. For me personally, it feels like my curinging in ME3 still made a difference.
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Post by Addictress on Mar 19, 2017 20:04:14 GMT
To be honest, this is one of the few things I was pleased with in the game. They had a realistic "increase of viability to 4%" and left it at that.
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