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Post by Catilina on Sept 8, 2016 14:45:25 GMT
The First Enchanter and the Knight Commander are equal? WHAT? Bullshit. Orsino wasn't able to stop Meredith's Annullment, but Meredith could have to execute the Annullment. This is NOT equal. The Chantry never was neutral, the Chantry (included the "neutral" Elthina), supported always the Templars. Settle down, mate. What I said was that the Knight Commander and the First Enchanter are meant to be equal and then added that this will naturally be undermined as they both compete for authority. Kirkwall was an example of a Circle where the Knight Commander held more power than the First Enchanter, the Circles in Tevinter are the opposite. Okay, then I think, I misunderstand you. But if I can imagine, that on paper, as you said the Knight Commander and the First Enchanter poition was equal, but the Chantry never let be equal. This is a corrupted, dangerous and simply cruel system, I do not know whether it was planned or not, but if not, the implementation failed. There is nothing to justify its existence.
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Post by roselavellan on Sept 8, 2016 17:51:11 GMT
Not really, the problems with that idea are legion. First, there is the simple fact that the Chantry acts as an international organization whose authority is recognized by all nations in Thedas and whom possesses the resources to maintain cross-border policing of mages and dissuading others who seek to interfere. Remove the Chantry from the equation, and every power in Thedas will seek to control the mages for their benefit leading to domestic and international conflicts where batallions of mages are used against human soldiers rathers than Darkspawn or Qunari. Second, having Templars answer to mages is what happens in Tevinter and the reasons why it is innefective should be obvious. If the people who are supposed to be watched for signs of corruption are the same people who pay the salaries of those who supposedly watch for signs of corruption, then they can just be bribed at any second. It's like having the mafia pay the salaries of the police, it just doesn't work. Third, any attempt to create a "secular Templars" is automatically doomed to failure because the pool of candidates for this new order would be the exact same one for the Templars AKA the people of Thedas which means that the young men and women who would have been Templars simply join this new hypothetical order. And any who would have been corrupt, will still be corrupt. They're basically the Templars by another name. Which is fine, really. Fourth, there really is no such thing as neutrality. We all have our biases. A group composed by 50% mages and 50% normal people is redudant because that is already how it works. The Knight Commander and the First Enchanter are, on paper, equal within the Circle and they work together, one to protect the interests of the normal people, the other of the mages. And of course, in each Circle, the Knight Commander and First Enchanter compete for superiority and the one who achieves it will unduly influence decision making. And hypothetical group comprised of 50% Enchanters and 50% independent/secular law enforcers would work in the exact same manner. First: This is why you need to have senior mages in any group overseeing the mages. And definitely not a religious organisation preaching distrust of magic. Second: Templars would no longer exist. Third: Right, they would be like guards. Unaffiliated with the Chantry and therefore not taught to fear and distrust the very people they are trained to "protect". Fourth: Yes, we all have our biases, therefore a group comprising 50% mages and 50% normal people will attempt to balance out the bias. And by the way, that is not how it works atm. The Templars currently have ultimate authority over the Circles, as evidenced by the Rite of Annulment. The current role of the First Enchanter in a Circle seems to be primarily administrative.
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Post by thesupremedarkone on Sept 8, 2016 19:21:27 GMT
The fact that the organization whose main doctrine is magic is evil is the one running the circles should have been a huge red flag that this was going to end badly
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Post by xerrai on Sept 8, 2016 19:49:47 GMT
The First Enchanter and the Knight Commander are equal? WHAT? Bullshit. Orsino wasn't able to stop Meredith's Annullment, but Meredith could have to execute the Annullment. This is NOT equal. The Chantry never was neutral, the Chantry (included the "neutral" Elthina), supported always the Templars. Settle down, mate. What I said was that the Knight Commander and the First Enchanter are meant to be equal and then added that this will naturally be undermined as they both compete for authority. Kirkwall was an example of a Circle where the Knight Commander held more power than the First Enchanter, the Circles in Tevinter are the opposite. Well of course there will be people competing for power. But the current system in place does little to prevent the First Enchanter's authority from being undermined at any given time. The Templars and the Chantry are practically brother and sister when it comes to ideology. In no small part because the Chantry was in direct control of and oversees the training for their military arm. Hell, for the longest time, people considered the acts of the Templars as the acts of the Chantry and vice versa. So it seems more like a 2 vs. 1 situation as opposed to a 1 vs. 1 vs. 1 situation because the Templar Order has never been a true autonomous organization until very recently.
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Post by lewie on Sept 8, 2016 20:45:01 GMT
I find this hard to talk about because so much of it is just circular arguing. Some people want the templars abolished, fair enough but demons do and will continue to exist so who will deal with that? People want mages to be free, which is great in an ideal world but demonic possession is something they are at risk of. It's not really about who your sympathy lies with, it's finding a solution that benefits everyone. I 'judge' people by those in game. Ser Barris and Cullen I thought were awesome, so I can't just diss every templar in sight for that reason alone. I really do sympathise with mages too, yet some mages who grew up in the circle were fine, Wynne, Vivienne. The 'colleges' in Tevinter sounds all good and well but the whole slavery thing really grates on me, that is a prime example of a system open to abuse. Dorian somewhat admitted that, and as much as I love him he sees his home through rose tinted glasses. Bless his cotton socks. I just don't know what the answer would be to all this, saying that, it probably won't matter considering what may come.
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Post by Iakus on Sept 8, 2016 22:22:45 GMT
If you acknowlege that the Order was controlled by the 'bad' Templars, and has been for quite some time, why defend them? Does this not show that it was built into their ideology from the start? That they are fundamentally flawed? That they create monsters like Meredith and Lambert by design? When it comes down to it, mages exist by necessity, but Templars don't. They are outdated, inherently faulty, and completely replaceable. If it was built into the ideology from the start, then what happened to the Tevinter Templars?
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Post by Iakus on Sept 8, 2016 22:28:35 GMT
The fact that the organization whose main doctrine is magic is evil is the one running the circles should have been a huge red flag that this was going to end badly Magic exists to serve man, and never to rule over him. Foul and corrupt are they Who have taken His gift
And turned it against His children.
They shall be named Maleficar, accursed ones. They shall find no rest in this world Or beyond. Magic is not evil as taught by the Chant of Light. It is a gift of the Maker and a source of power. And like any form of power, it can be abused. The view that "magic is evil" comes from living under the thumb of an empire which practiced human sacrifice, blood magic, demon summoning, etc for centuries perhaps millennium. Followed by nearly two centuries of fighting Dumat and the FIrst Blight, which was brought about why blood mages hungry for more power and trying to usurp the Maker. That's a lot of bad press to overcome.
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Post by xerrai on Sept 8, 2016 23:17:21 GMT
I find this hard to talk about because so much of it is just circular arguing. Some people want the templars abolished, fair enough but demons do and will continue to exist so who will deal with that? People want mages to be free, which is great in an ideal world but demonic possession is something they are at risk of. It's not really about who your sympathy lies with, it's finding a solution that benefits everyone. [...] I just don't know what the answer would be to all this, saying that, it probably won't matter considering what may come. I suppose that understandable. Apart from "mages should be free!" vs "Mages should still be in a Circle with Templars!", few go into the specifics of how exactly the mages will live once their freedom is granted. The most we get are "Free mages means a Tevinter v2.0!" or "They'll be fine~". But nothing actually addressing the problems. But then again, they probably feel that they don't have to. The epilogue slides are pretty adamant about saying the college "finds solutions to age old problems" that the restored Circle under Viv "allows mages to hold power and responsibility like never before" and that Circles under any other Divine just gets back to the system that they used to have but with reform. So any choice seems like its doing ok when all is said and done. Personally, I think free mages are ok so long as there is an organization that will continue to address problems. That seems to be what the College of Enchanters is trying to do. The fact that the most popular/dominant fraternity within the college are the Aequitarians (mages who believe magic should be handled in a responsible and ethical manner regardless of Chantry law) is a big plus too. Makes me believe that the college will be steered by amenable people who can be reasoned with. This would be a totally different story if most college mages were Isolationists or Lucrosians. In which case I would have second thoughts.
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Post by thesupremedarkone on Sept 8, 2016 23:37:50 GMT
The fact that the organization whose main doctrine is magic is evil is the one running the circles should have been a huge red flag that this was going to end badly Magic exists to serve man, and never to rule over him. Foul and corrupt are they Who have taken His gift
And turned it against His children.
They shall be named Maleficar, accursed ones. They shall find no rest in this world Or beyond. Magic is not evil as taught by the Chant of Light. It is a gift of the Maker and a source of power. And like any form of power, it can be abused. The view that "magic is evil" comes from living under the thumb of an empire which practiced human sacrifice, blood magic, demon summoning, etc for centuries perhaps millennium. Followed by nearly two centuries of fighting Dumat and the FIrst Blight, which was brought about why blood mages hungry for more power and trying to usurp the Maker. That's a lot of bad press to overcome. Did you forget WOT explicitly stating that the first doctrine is that magic is evil? Also, didn't you just confirm that the circles are inherently biased against mages? Why would a system that inherently hates mages not wind up falling apart
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Post by Catilina on Sept 8, 2016 23:40:44 GMT
The fact that the organization whose main doctrine is magic is evil is the one running the circles should have been a huge red flag that this was going to end badly Magic exists to serve man, and never to rule over him. Foul and corrupt are they Who have taken His gift And turned it against His children.
They shall be named Maleficar, accursed ones. They shall find no rest in this world Or beyond. Magic is not evil as taught by the Chant of Light. It is a gift of the Maker and a source of power. And like any form of power, it can be abused. The view that "magic is evil" comes from living under the thumb of an empire which practiced human sacrifice, blood magic, demon summoning, etc for centuries perhaps millennium. Followed by nearly two centuries of fighting Dumat and the FIrst Blight, which was brought about why blood mages hungry for more power and trying to usurp the Maker. That's a lot of bad press to overcome. Nonetheless in the Ferelden Circle you can see a mage, who hates herself bicause her magic. I'm sure, she not alone with this feeling, because the Chantry. I think, the people don't want to be abomination (Uldred was foolish, and Uldred was the ONE, who wanted to be abomination) and don't want hurt themselves, or others. Look: so many people have weapon, then stronger, that his/her neighbor, but don't go to kill his/her, just because able to kill him/her. Yes, dangerous people exist. But that's not a solution, than because of some personal trait, the police imprison the innocent people for prevent. Maybe, the magic more dangerous, than a weapon, but I the similarity is obvious. The solution is the police, not the cruel prevention.
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Post by cardbutton on Sept 9, 2016 0:04:29 GMT
LOL well I meant she understands and respects her own Dalish heritage (rather than Human) and just doesn't feel the need to be restricted by it, but I won't argue the plan was to make her a weirdo. Okay, yes, I got it. Just was really weird to hear the Chantry propaganda from a dalish elf mage... To be fair I wouldn't consider those observations about the repercussions about what would happen if you were to release that many inexperienced, and unworldly Mages into Thedas with so little preparation to live in that world propaganda. Propaganda would be more the Templar's religious justifications for doing what they do. It's more of a learned assessment of what is going to happen in the short term. A large percentage of the Mages don't have a dime to their name, inherently don't have a good report with the locals due to what they are so Trading or Buying land will be extremely difficult, and above all have rarely/never had to go without the essentials. At bare minimum Food, Shelter and Clothing were always provided to even the worst of the Circles. Hell even Fiona's faction were incapable of providing for themselves and had to lean on the leader of Fereldon and the people of Redcliffe for the most basic necessities. Mages are also extremely dangerous when pushed into a corner and for every one who falls to desperation and uses their only viable tool to rob and steal food/money away from the non mages (or heaven forbid become an abomination and go on a murder spree), the worse the reputation of every Mage will be. That bad reputation caused by the rogue apostates will also bleed over increased suspicion and aggression towards the Dalish since they are extremely misunderstood by humans and known to house their own apostates ... Which is exactly what it did happen considering the fate of the Lavellan Clan if you do anything but the exact right decisions for their War Table ops. It may not have been the Templars that butchered the clan, but they didn't need to ... the people did it for them out of fear. So its not as if my Dalish agreeing with the Circles (if not exactly approving of how they're run) is entirely and unselfish one. The Rebel Mages and their erratic behavior inherently make the world more dangerous for the Dalish, that's a fact. The Circle Mages may have the power and numbers to last long enough for things to settle down, that cannot necessarily be said to be true for the Dalish. Plus ... lets face it, there were a bundle of benefits for the newly formed Inquisition if one sided with the Templars over the Mages. I guess you could say that method I used for my character to choose what faction to go with was a pragmatic one, rather than ideological or emotional.
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Post by lordofwar on Sept 9, 2016 0:16:19 GMT
If you acknowlege that the Order was controlled by the 'bad' Templars, and has been for quite some time, why defend them? Does this not show that it was built into their ideology from the start? That they are fundamentally flawed? That they create monsters like Meredith and Lambert by design? When it comes down to it, mages exist by necessity, but Templars don't. They are outdated, inherently faulty, and completely replaceable. If it was built into the ideology from the start, then what happened to the Tevinter Templars? It all may come down to the cultural differences Tevinter has with the rest of Thedas, with magic being actively celebrated as one of their great achievements and cultural centerpieces. Then again, Tevinter Andrastianism is already pretty weird to begin with. Apparently they've been Andrastian longer than Orlais has even existed, but didn't have a religious structure already in place before Drakon? They accepted the Orlesian Divine as the head of the faith at all?
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Post by Catilina on Sept 9, 2016 0:17:09 GMT
Okay, yes, I got it. Just was really weird to hear the Chantry propaganda from a dalish elf mage... To be fair I wouldn't consider those observations about the repercussions about what would happen if you were to release that many inexperienced, and unworldly Mages into Thedas with so little preparation to live in that world propaganda. Propaganda would be more the Templar's religious justifications for doing what they do. It's more of a learned assessment of what is going to happen in the short term. A large percentage of the Mages don't have a dime to their name, inherently don't have a good report with the locals due to what they are so Trading or Buying land will be extremely difficult, and above all have rarely/never had to go without the essentials. At bare minimum Food, Shelter and Clothing were always provided to even the worst of the Circles. Hell even Fiona's faction were incapable of providing for themselves and had to lean on the leader of Fereldon and the people of Redcliffe for the most basic necessities. Mages are also extremely dangerous when pushed into a corner and for every one who falls to desperation and uses their only viable tool to rob and steal food/money away from the non mages (or heaven forbid become an abomination and go on a murder spree), the worse the reputation of every Mage will be. That bad reputation caused by the rogue apostates will also bleed over increased suspicion and aggression towards the Dalish since they are extremely misunderstood by humans and known to house their own apostates ... Which is exactly what it did happen considering the fate of the Lavellan Clan if you do anything but the exact right decisions for their War Table ops. It may not have been the Templars that butchered the clan, but they didn't need to ... the people did it for them out of fear. So its not as if my Dalish agreeing with the Circles (if not exactly approving of how they're run) is entirely and unselfish one. The Rebel Mages and their erratic behavior inherently make the world more dangerous for the Dalish, that's a fact. The Circle Mages may have the power and numbers to last long enough for things to settle down, that cannot necessarily be said to be true for the Dalish. Plus ... lets face it, there were a bundle of benefits for the newly formed Inquisition if one sided with the Templars over the Mages. I guess you could say that method I used for my character to choose what faction to go with was a pragmatic one, rather than ideological or emotional. I said I'm not worried about what happens if the free mages are released to the world. Yes they will be "accidents". This is inevitable, because the people have to learn to live with. The learning process is often painful. But thanks to the existing system. And as I said: I don't saw one abomination in the Inquisition (except the Templar-"abominations"). As I always said: the best solution: bring the rebels, give they a useful job and goals, because they need that, and the mages need respect. Not in all viewpoint pragmatical your position: the Circles are dangerous. Your position only perhaps comfortable and for the moment seems safe.
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Post by Iakus on Sept 9, 2016 5:40:42 GMT
Did you forget WOT explicitly stating that the first doctrine is that magic is evil? Also, didn't you just confirm that the circles are inherently biased against mages? Why would a system that inherently hates mages not wind up falling apart No, that's not what WoT says. It says that magic is "a terrible gift, corrupting all if left unchecked" and that "Andraste preached extreme caution with magic" Magic is dangerous. Not evil. The system is not inherently biased against mages. Look at Tevinter, where they started with the same Circle system and yet mages rule and Templars are glorified security guards.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 9, 2016 11:07:48 GMT
Did you forget WOT explicitly stating that the first doctrine is that magic is evil? Also, didn't you just confirm that the circles are inherently biased against mages? Why would a system that inherently hates mages not wind up falling apart No, that's not what WoT says. It says that magic is "a terrible gift, corrupting all if left unchecked" and that "Andraste preached extreme caution with magic" Magic is dangerous. Not evil. The system is not inherently biased against mages. Look at Tevinter, where they started with the same Circle system and yet mages rule and Templars are glorified security guards. Let's face it, this is the same commoners eyes, as if to say that evil ... People are afraid easily, especially if they are intimidated. Not really calms them when Templars searching for apostates, and forcibly take away some children who are declared dangerous. The Chantry keeps people in fear intentionally.
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Post by roselavellan on Sept 9, 2016 16:21:04 GMT
No, that's not what WoT says. It says that magic is "a terrible gift, corrupting all if left unchecked" and that "Andraste preached extreme caution with magic" Uh, that's practically saying magic is evil. What else would "corrupt all if left unchecked"? A Chantry which teaches that magic corrupts is basically teaching that magic is evil.
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Post by Iakus on Sept 9, 2016 16:46:17 GMT
No, that's not what WoT says. It says that magic is "a terrible gift, corrupting all if left unchecked" and that "Andraste preached extreme caution with magic" Uh, that's practically saying magic is evil. What else would "corrupt all if left unchecked"? A Chantry which teaches that magic corrupts is basically teaching that magic is evil. Magic corrupts if left unchecked. It's just another way of saying "With great power comes great responsibility"
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Post by roselavellan on Sept 9, 2016 17:07:41 GMT
Uh, that's practically saying magic is evil. What else would "corrupt all if left unchecked"? A Chantry which teaches that magic corrupts is basically teaching that magic is evil. Magic corrupts if left unchecked. It's just another way of saying "With great power comes great responsibility" Not exactly. In this context, where the preceding words are "magic is a terrible gift", the meaning is clear: that unless magic is limited, it will corrupt. The difference is in the emphasis but it's there. And we can see their methods of limiting magic: torture, confinement... As Catilina said earlier, it is designed to control using fear and distrust.
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Post by xerrai on Sept 9, 2016 17:43:16 GMT
Magic corrupts if left unchecked. It's just another way of saying "With great power comes great responsibility" Not exactly. In this context, where the preceding words are "magic is a terrible gift", the meaning is clear: that unless magic is limited, it will corrupt. The difference is in the emphasis but it's there. And we can see their methods of limiting magic: torture, confinement... As Catilina said earlier, it is designed to control using fear and distrust. Hey hey now. The Chantry never actually sanctioned the torture of mages unless they were maleficar or apostates. Their first response when hearing about an emergent mage is "take them to the Circle" not "Witch hunt! Burn em all!". I won't deny that bad things happen to mages under their watch (Circles are technically under their jurisdiction), but I wouldn't go so far as to say that the Chantry actually condones torture for most mages. I can see them condoning torture for maleficar, dangerous apostates or possible abominations though. But I can't recall an instance for that. I can recall Templars doing that though, like with Cole, but the fact that they decided to hide their wrongdoing(s) implies that the Chantry knew nothing of it.
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Post by roselavellan on Sept 9, 2016 18:00:21 GMT
Hey hey now. The Chantry never actually sanctioned the torture of mages unless they were maleficar or apostates. Their first response when hearing about an emergent mage is "take them to the Circle" not "Witch hunt! Burn em all!". I won't deny that bad things happen to mages under their watch (Circles are technically under their jurisdiction), but I wouldn't go so far as to say that the Chantry actually condones torture for most mages. I can see them condoning torture for maleficar, dangerous apostates or possible abominations though. But I can't recall an instance for that. I can recall Templars doing that though, like with Cole, but the fact that they decided to hide their wrongdoing(s) implies that the Chantry knew nothing of it. The Chantry may not specifically condone torture for all mages, but the fact is that it does happen under their jurisdiction, and furthermore the fact that the Chantry does nothing/very little to prevent it shows implied approval.
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Post by Catilina on Sept 9, 2016 18:54:58 GMT
Not exactly. In this context, where the preceding words are "magic is a terrible gift", the meaning is clear: that unless magic is limited, it will corrupt. The difference is in the emphasis but it's there. And we can see their methods of limiting magic: torture, confinement... As Catilina said earlier, it is designed to control using fear and distrust. Hey hey now. The Chantry never actually sanctioned the torture of mages unless they were maleficar or apostates. Their first response when hearing about an emergent mage is "take them to the Circle" not "Witch hunt! Burn em all!". I won't deny that bad things happen to mages under their watch (Circles are technically under their jurisdiction), but I wouldn't go so far as to say that the Chantry actually condones torture for most mages. I can see them condoning torture for maleficar, dangerous apostates or possible abominations though. But I can't recall an instance for that. I can recall Templars doing that though, like with Cole, but the fact that they decided to hide their wrongdoing(s) implies that the Chantry knew nothing of it.Then the Chantry is unsuitable for the lead of Templars, or lead of ANYTHING...
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Iakus
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Post by Iakus on Sept 9, 2016 19:09:32 GMT
Magic corrupts if left unchecked. It's just another way of saying "With great power comes great responsibility" Not exactly. In this context, where the preceding words are "magic is a terrible gift", the meaning is clear: that unless magic is limited, it will corrupt. The difference is in the emphasis but it's there. And we can see their methods of limiting magic: torture, confinement... As Catilina said earlier, it is designed to control using fear and distrust. Magic is a terrible gift. Though not strictly in the current definition of "terrible" as in something awful or evil. Think in the older, more little definition as "frightening"or " terrifying" It's pretty much Blessed With Suck. You gain fantastic powers, but you must forever deal with demons trying to possess you, guarding your dreams, etc. Not to mention the fear and suspicion that comes with the last couple thousand years of magical history
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Iakus
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Post by Iakus on Sept 9, 2016 19:13:44 GMT
Hey hey now. The Chantry never actually sanctioned the torture of mages unless they were maleficar or apostates. Their first response when hearing about an emergent mage is "take them to the Circle" not "Witch hunt! Burn em all!". I won't deny that bad things happen to mages under their watch (Circles are technically under their jurisdiction), but I wouldn't go so far as to say that the Chantry actually condones torture for most mages. I can see them condoning torture for maleficar, dangerous apostates or possible abominations though. But I can't recall an instance for that. I can recall Templars doing that though, like with Cole, but the fact that they decided to hide their wrongdoing(s) implies that the Chantry knew nothing of it. The Chantry may not specifically condone torture for all mages, but the fact is that it does happen under their jurisdiction, and furthermore the fact that the Chantry does nothing/very little to prevent it shows implied approval. The Chantry (and the Templars) have also saved the lives of a good many mages. Protecting them from scared townsfolk who'd sooner lynch a mage than anything else. Or rescued mage children after being abandoned by their parents.
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Post by thesupremedarkone on Sept 9, 2016 19:19:37 GMT
The Chantry may not specifically condone torture for all mages, but the fact is that it does happen under their jurisdiction, and furthermore the fact that the Chantry does nothing/very little to prevent it shows implied approval. The Chantry (and the Templars) have also saved the lives of a good many mages. Protecting them from scared townsfolk who'd sooner lynch a mage than anything else. Or rescued mage children after being abandoned by their parents. The chantry didn't help by encouraging hatred of magic
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Iakus
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Post by Iakus on Sept 9, 2016 19:34:35 GMT
The Chantry (and the Templars) have also saved the lives of a good many mages. Protecting them from scared townsfolk who'd sooner lynch a mage than anything else. Or rescued mage children after being abandoned by their parents. The chantry didn't help by encouraging hatred of magic Did they encourage it? Or did it grow from the human inclination to hate that which they fear?
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