Kossith - the old term for the race of qunari; not used by anyone except the occasional scholar Qunari - Adherents of the Qun; also the commonly-accepted term for the race Tal'Vashoth - qunari who left the Qun Vashoth - qunari who never followed the Qun
We've got told to not use Kossith because it was wrong , and it was refering to the culture before the Qun.Then we got told perhaps it was the name of the race but it was still wrong to use it. The Kossith debate was such a clusterf**** with devs keeping on confusing everyone , to the point there were "kossith shaming" on the forum , beware the ones who used the dreaded word "kossith". I can't help but keep on poking fun at the whole thing.
Kossith - the old term for the race of qunari; not used by anyone except the occasional scholar Qunari - Adherents of the Qun; also the commonly-accepted term for the race Tal'Vashoth - qunari who left the Qun Vashoth - qunari who never followed the Qun
We've got told to not use Kossith because it was wrong , and it was refering to the culture before the Qun.Then we got told perhaps it was the name of the race but it was still wrong to use it. The Kossith debate was such a clusterf**** with devs keeping on confusing everyone , to the point there were "kossith shaming" on the forum , beware the ones who used the dreaded word "kossith". I can't help but keep on poking fun at the whole thing.
I think you may be confusing the 'confusion' of the devs with in-universe confusion of Thedosians. This doesn't seem to be much different from Southerners erroneously assuming that "magister" is a word meaning "mage from Tevinter"...
Last Edit: Nov 4, 2016 18:27:01 GMT by midnight tea
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Mike Laidlaw please don't say the name of the race is Kossith after we've been told we couldn't understand correctly and it wasn't the case...Nooooooo! Even the dev are confusing themselves with the Kossith shenanigans!(and that's not the first time)
Kossith - the old term for the race of qunari; not used by anyone except the occasional scholar Qunari - Adherents of the Qun; also the commonly-accepted term for the race Tal'Vashoth - qunari who left the Qun Vashoth - qunari who never followed the Qun
Kossith - the old term for the race of qunari; not used by anyone except the occasional scholar Qunari - Adherents of the Qun; also the commonly-accepted term for the race Tal'Vashoth - qunari who left the Qun Vashoth - qunari who never followed the Qun
We've got told to not use Kossith because it was wrong , and it was refering to the culture before the Qun.Then we got told perhaps it was the name of the race but it was still wrong to use it. The Kossith debate was such a clusterf**** with devs keeping on confusing everyone , to the point there were "kossith shaming" on the forum , beware the ones who used the dreaded word "kossith". I can't help but keep on poking fun at the whole thing.
To be honest, pedantic "fans" ruined the whole thing.
For this reason, I'd just prefer that they stick with Qunari (uppercase Q) for any member of the Qun, which includes elves like Gatt and Tallis, and qunari (lowercase q) for the race. That way, I think it is very clear what is meant.
Can there also be elf Tal-Vashoth, if someone like Tallis were to leave the Qun?
It seems to me that Vashoth is meant to apply to a member of that race that was born outside the Qun, like the qunari Inquisitor, since it literally means "gray ones." If an elf were to leave the Qun, I suppose they would just go back to being themselves.
Qunari, Seer said, are people who follow the Qun. Her people. Those born into Qunari society who reject the Qun are called Vashoth, which means "gray ones." These gray ones must leave their homes, for they have no place among the Qunari. Sadly, many turn against the society that cast them out.
These outcasts call themselves Tal-Vashoth, "the true gray ones."
To me, this reads as if one is not an actual Tal-Vashoth until they officially leave the Qun. In this case, the seer is using "Vashoth" for any member of Qunari society that rejects the Qun, whereas it is only the Tal-Vashoth themselves that use the prefix Tal, which makes sense since they are calling themselves the "true grey ones."
I don't know why ANY Qunari would use the phrase "Tal-Vashoth," since it seems doubtful that they care what those who have left the Qun call themselves. "You're the 'true gray ones,' huh? Yeah, whatever." The only explanation I have for this is to avoid confusion for outsiders.
Last Edit: Aug 28, 2016 5:20:39 GMT by Nightscrawl
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I think you may be confusing the 'confusion' of the devs with in-universe confusion of Thedosians. This doesn't seem to be much different than Southerners erroneously assuming that "magister" is a word meaning "mage from Tevinter"...
" It was used to describe the culture that predated the Qun. It may not have even been the name of a race at all" from the person in charge of the Qunari lore from 4 years ago, explaining why we shouldn't use "Kossith".
I think you may be confusing the 'confusion' of the devs with in-universe confusion of Thedosians. This doesn't seem to be much different than Southerners erroneously assuming that "magister" is a word meaning "mage from Tevinter"...
" It was used to describe the culture that predated the Qun. It may not have even been the name of a race at all" from the person in charge of the Qunari lore from 4 years ago, explaining why we shouldn't use "Kossith".
And he was obviously explaining it from in-universe point of view. You can tell - that's when the devs use words like "may have been", "may not have been" or "could've" and so on when explaining the lore or history of DA world. They've done this repeatedly, on many occasions, mostly to either prevent or indicate spoilers. Like I said - you're confusing game devs confusion with in-universe confusion (or lack of knowledge) of Thedosians. Heck, even Iron Bull couldn't really tell in-game what kossith really were or where they came from or why they had to leave.
Last Edit: Aug 28, 2016 15:36:46 GMT by midnight tea
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On the subject of Qunari/Tal'Vashoth/Kossith, it would seem from World of Thedas that the generic term for the race is Kossith but within Thedas itself hardly anyone uses this term. The Qunari consider that the kossith no longer exist since they have been practicing selective breeding for so many years that no one can be sure exactly what they looked like. The leadership do not recognise the concept of kossith and ordinary qunari are not even aware of the word. Whilst technically they refer to those who have left the Qun as Vashoth, this does not refer to the race, just their status with regard to the Qun, even though the majority of Vashoth are actually "kossith", hence the term meaning "Grey Ones". (This is confirmed by the Core Rule Book).
Tal'Vashoth is definitely what these people who have left the Qun call themselves. Since they are regarded as traitors by the Qun, naturally the term is intended as a designation of contempt when used by someone within the Qun, whereas to the Tal'Vashoth it is a designation of pride.
What I find interesting is that there is an entry in the timeline at -410 Ancient that says a group of kossith landed in southern Thedas. If this is not a mistake, then it would suggest that this group was some of the original race. They are assumed to have been killed off or captured by darkspawn during the 1st Blight after which ogres started to appear.
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Kossith - the old term for the race of qunari; not used by anyone except the occasional scholar Qunari - Adherents of the Qun; also the commonly-accepted term for the race Tal'Vashoth - qunari who left the Qun Vashoth - qunari who never followed the Qun
We've got told to not use Kossith because it was wrong , and it was refering to the culture before the Qun.Then we got told perhaps it was the name of the race but it was still wrong to use it. The Kossith debate was such a clusterf**** with devs keeping on confusing everyone , to the point there were "kossith shaming" on the forum , beware the ones who used the dreaded word "kossith". I can't help but keep on poking fun at the whole thing.
Were we told it was wrong? I just remember David Gaider saying - don't tell people they're wrong for using Qunari to describe the race. My memory of it was "either is fine, just don't expect the majority of people to know - or care - what kossith means".
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Were we told it was wrong? I just remember David Gaider saying - don't tell people they're wrong for using Qunari to describe the race. My memory of it was "either is fine, just don't expect the majority of people to know - or care - what kossith means".
I didn't want to start another Kossith debate ...there's a whole story about that word how fans discovered the word , and how it became somewhat of a "controversial" topic , and it all started with a tweet. Because I'm a massive DA lore nerd , and this is one of the rare lore shenanigans we got , I really really want to rant about it.I'm doing my best to resist , stop tempting me.
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Were we told it was wrong? I just remember David Gaider saying - don't tell people they're wrong for using Qunari to describe the race. My memory of it was "either is fine, just don't expect the majority of people to know - or care - what kossith means".
I didn't want to start another Kossith debate ...there's a whole story about that word how fans discovered the word , and how it became somewhat of a "controversial" topic , and it all started with a tweet. Because I'm a massive DA lore nerd , and this is one of the rare lore shenanigans we got , I really really want to rant about it.I'm doing my best to resist , stop tempting me.
Apologies - I remember the whole thing. It's OK. Shhhhh...be at peace.
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To be honest, pedantic "fans" ruined the whole thing.
For this reason, I'd just prefer that they stick with Qunari (uppercase Q) for any member of the Qun, which includes elves like Gatt and Tallis, and qunari (lowercase q) for the race. That way, I think it is very clear what is meant.
Can there also be elf Tal-Vashoth, if someone like Tallis were to leave the Qun?
It seems to me that Vashoth is meant to apply to a member of that race that was born outside the Qun, like the qunari Inquisitor, since it literally means "gray ones." If an elf were to leave the Qun, I suppose they would just go back to being themselves.
Qunari, Seer said, are people who follow the Qun. Her people. Those born into Qunari society who reject the Qun are called Vashoth, which means "gray ones." These gray ones must leave their homes, for they have no place among the Qunari. Sadly, many turn against the society that cast them out.
These outcasts call themselves Tal-Vashoth, "the true gray ones."
To me, this reads as if one is not an actual Tal-Vashoth until they officially leave the Qun. In this case, the seer is using "Vashoth" for any member of Qunari society that rejects the Qun, whereas it is only the Tal-Vashoth themselves that use the prefix Tal, which makes sense since they are calling themselves the "true grey ones."
I don't know why ANY Qunari would use the phrase "Tal-Vashoth," since it seems doubtful that they care what those who have left the Qun call themselves. "You're the 'true gray ones,' huh? Yeah, whatever." The only explanation I have for this is to avoid confusion for outsiders.
I agree with the uppercase/lower case Q for defining the race vs the people
As for Vashoth vs Tal-Vashoth, I still don't think that's been made entirely clear. But what it seems to be is those who choose not to live under the Qun and make their own society (such as the family of the Qunquisitor) vs those who actively fight the Qunari: like the Tal-Vashoth on Seheron. IB was branded Tal-Vashoth because he allowed a Qunari dreadnought (and its crew) to die to save a bunch of bas.
It seems that qunari not under the Qun have a tendency to go savage (Iron Bull seems afraid that will happen to him if he turns against the Qun), and I wonder if they are in fact the "true Grey ones" And the ones who stay sane are just "Grey Ones"
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To be honest I think a lot of the idea about qunari leaving the Qun becoming savage is just propaganda by the Ben-Hassrath, so people will be afraid of leaving. That is what they have made Bull believe but of course when he leaves he is no different to what he was before, except without the Qun controlling him. Plus it is very difficult for those qunari to make a living outside the Qun because people are automatically prejudiced against them. So they end up taking the worst jobs or resorting to banditry and people think they are savage when they are simply trying to survive. According to the epilogue slide if Bull betrays the Inquisition, every Tal-Vashoth becomes suspect, which seems rather hard to me considering he never said he was anything but a spy to the Inquisitor and he wasn't a genuine Tal-Vashoth. From what he says about Seheron it sounds like everyone is barbaric; the war just makes them that way. He tries to maintain that the Qun are better than the Vints or the Tal-Vashoth but that Fog Warrior in World of Thedas makes the point that they are the natives and everyone regards them as savage just because they are fighting for their freedom. I dare say a fair few Tal-Vashoth join the Fog Warriors, just as Fenris did for a time.
