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Post by Avejajed on Feb 11, 2018 9:35:11 GMT
I'm not calling him a liar so much as I'm saying that there may be a lot they dont tell us in regards to why they left. It's not like they would tell the general public anything but the same general niceties like "it was time" or "moving to something new" or "need a change of pace". They wouldn't dare complain about missed promotions, money, personal issues, etc.
So I'm not saying David's not burnt out. I'm saying he could have had other reasons for leaving Bioware that are now cleared up, leaving him the opportunity to return.
Idk.
And I know he got a lot of shit and abuse but he also dished it.
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Post by vertigomez on Feb 11, 2018 14:58:23 GMT
Unpopular opinion: I really like Gaider as a person and never thought he was particularly "mean" - sarcastic, sure, and unwilling to play nice with people who didn't play nice with him, but as I recall he wasn't some huge dickweed?? Like, mildly dickweedy, maybe. My kind of person. edit: apparently not as unpopular as I thought!
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Post by gervaise21 on Feb 11, 2018 15:32:33 GMT
I have a feeling he's just getting out of games in general. I thought he went to Beamdog or has something changed since then? Beamdog are revamping a load of old Bioware titles such as Baldurs Gate and most recently Neverwinter Nights, so may be DG just felt nostalgia for those old games and had unfinished business with some of them.
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Post by rras1994 on Feb 11, 2018 15:34:09 GMT
I have a feeling he's just getting out of games in general. I thought he went to Beamdog or has something changed since then? Beamdog are revamping a load of old Bioware titles such as Baldurs Gate and most recently Neverwinter Nights, so may be DG just felt nostalgia for those old games and had unfinished business with some of them. They recently announced he's left Beamdog: linkHe hasn't announced what he's doing next though.
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Post by Hrungr on Feb 11, 2018 17:43:53 GMT
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Post by midnight tea on Feb 11, 2018 17:48:42 GMT
I've never bought into the whole "tortured artist" crap. He writes for videogames, hes not painting the Sistine Chapel. I never said anything about being a tortured artist, I said bitterness is a handy emotion creatively. It's handy because it helps when it comes to adding depth to themes, which helps add depth to stories. Why is Planescape Torment so revered? Mostly because of its running theme "what can change the nature of a man", which stems from the writer having something to say. Themes add depth to stories whether they are for novels or for videogames. It's no longer the early 90s where games were 99% gameplay and the guy who wrote the game was the programmer who could spell the best. Being someone who happens to be an artsy person I agree that themes add depth to stories, but I disagree that bitterness is some sort of unique tool to add it. One doesn't have to be bitter to be capable of in-depth look into things. "Planetscape Torment" may be revered, but it's hardly the only revered piece of gaming, many of which can be deep and engaging, but ultimately not tortured, tormented or bitter - it's the same with other mediums. Now, you can say that nowadays there are a lot of popular pieces that are tortured, tormented, bitter or cynical pieces of fiction - but that has more to do with current fashion than anything else. There are signs that people are getting tired of it.
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Post by TheodoricFriede on Feb 11, 2018 17:57:42 GMT
There are signs that people are getting tired of it. Praise Dumat.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Feb 11, 2018 19:00:22 GMT
Unpopular opinion: I really like Gaider as a person and never thought he was particularly "mean" - sarcastic, sure, and unwilling to play nice with people who didn't play nice with him, but as I recall he wasn't some huge dickweed?? Like, mildly dickweedy, maybe. My kind of person. edit: apparently not as unpopular as I thought! I think it's a mixed bag. I don't think David Gaider's public face, especially the sometimes-exasperated one he gave to some players, is what his friends and co-workers see/saw. On several occasions, I think he had every right to be irritated with those players, who would deny an explanation given because it wasn't what they wanted to hear (this is a big one), twist his words, or just act a general bigot. This is on top of other abuse such as calling for his (or co-workers') firing, calling for Bioware to implode, calling the writing (his and the writing in general) trash (phrased in that way, it is NOT "constructive criticism"), and other such things. That said, I've often felt that he was not the best public face for Dragon Age. He's human, and I get that, but public relations -- there are entire departments called Public Relations! -- is a whole different beast, and he was bad at it because he often allowed his emotions to infuse his typing fingers. However, as one of the game leads, I thought his insights were invaluable. The clarifications he brought to some issues are alone worth some peevish posts. (Parenthesis are fun! )
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Post by vertigomez on Feb 11, 2018 19:09:51 GMT
Unpopular opinion: I really like Gaider as a person and never thought he was particularly "mean" - sarcastic, sure, and unwilling to play nice with people who didn't play nice with him, but as I recall he wasn't some huge dickweed?? Like, mildly dickweedy, maybe. My kind of person. edit: apparently not as unpopular as I thought! I think it's a mixed bag. I don't think David Gaider's public face, especially the sometimes-exasperated one he gave to some players, is what his friends and co-workers see/saw. On several occasions, I think he had every right to be irritated with those players, who would deny an explanation given because it wasn't what they wanted to hear (this is a big one), twist his words, or just act a general bigot. This is on top of other abuse such as calling for his (or co-workers') firing, calling for Bioware to implode, calling the writing (his and the writing in general) trash (phrased in that way, it is NOT "constructive criticism"), and other such things. That said, I've often felt that he was not the best public face for Dragon Age. He's human, and I get that, but public relations -- there are entire departments called Public Relations! -- is a whole different beast, and he was bad at it because he often allowed his emotions to infuse his typing fingers. However, as one of the game leads, I thought his insights were invaluable. The clarifications he brought to some issues are alone worth some peevish posts. (Parenthesis are fun! )I see what you mean, but I guess I'm just okay with public relations being, well... less PR and more blunt lol. I found it refreshing.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Feb 11, 2018 19:14:30 GMT
An addendum to this is that David Gaider does not want to read your writing of his characters! (This is from 2015, so not related to this event.) David Gaider @davidgaider Oct 28Word of gentle advice to writing applicants: I know you’re trying to impress and mean well, but…don’t write my characters. Just…do not. David Gaider @davidgaider It *can* be done well – I’ve see[n] it – but it’s a dangerous road to travel. You stand to lose more than you gain. (There is no way in HELL I would EVER want David Gaider to read the way I write Dorian. I mean… a masochistic part of me wants to know what he might actually think, but then the saner part of my brain takes over and intervenes to protect me from such thoughts. I don’t know if those writing applicants have really huge balls, or… or what, really. Then again, I’m the person that doesn’t have any of her fics posted online for anyone else to read in the first place. So by that fact alone those applicants already have more balls than I.)
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Post by Hrungr on Feb 11, 2018 19:14:32 GMT
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Post by Nightscrawl on Feb 11, 2018 19:21:06 GMT
^ I'm sure not dreading crunch as a reality of game development would go a long way toward that.
(Lol I see that's addressed in the very first paragraph!)
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Post by river82 on Feb 11, 2018 20:14:36 GMT
Being someone who happens to be an artsy person I agree that themes add depth to stories, but I disagree that bitterness is some sort of unique tool to add it. One doesn't have to be bitter to be capable of in-depth look into things. "Planetscape Torment" may be revered, but it's hardly the only revered piece of gaming, many of which can be deep and engaging, but ultimately not tortured, tormented or bitter - it's the same with other mediums. Now, you can say that nowadays there are a lot of popular pieces that are tortured, tormented, bitter or cynical pieces of fiction - but that has more to do with current fashion than anything else. There are signs that people are getting tired of it. I didn't say it was a unique tool, I said it was a handy emotion that was better than overall contentment. Being bitter doesn't mean producing works that are bitter, just like being angry doesn't mean producing works that are angry. For example if you would believe Neil Gaiman*, Terry Pratchett was an angry man and it was that anger that drove his work, yet his fiction is hilarious. I'm sure quite a bit of that anger goes into his themes though, when he satirises things like greed, corporate corruption, and the role of journalism. * Terry looked at me. He said: “Do not underestimate this anger. This anger was the engine that powered Good Omens.” I thought of the driven way that Terry wrote, and of the way that he drove the rest of us with him, and I knew that he was right.
There is a fury to Terry Pratchett’s writing: it’s the fury that was the engine that powered Discworld. It’s also the anger at the headmaster who would decide that six-year-old Terry Pratchett would never be smart enough for the 11-plus; anger at pompous critics, and at those who think serious is the opposite of funny; anger at his early American publishers who could not bring his books out successfully.
The anger is always there, an engine that drives. By the time Terry learned he had a rare, early onset form of Alzheimer’s, the targets of his fury changed: he was angry with his brain and his genetics and, more than these, furious at a country that would not permit him (or others in a similarly intolerable situation) to choose the manner and the time of their passing.
And that anger, it seems to me, is about Terry’s underlying sense of what is fair and what is not. It is that sense of fairness that underlies Terry’s work and his writing, and it’s what drove him from school to journalism to the press office of the SouthWestern Electricity Board to the position of being one of the best-loved and bestselling writers in the world.
Terry’s authorial voice is always Terry’s: genial, informed, sensible, drily amused. I suppose that, if you look quickly and are not paying attention, you might, perhaps, mistake it for jolly. But beneath any jollity there is a foundation of fury. Terry Pratchett is not one to go gentle into any night, good or otherwise.
He will rage, as he leaves, against so many things: stupidity, injustice, human foolishness and shortsightedness, not just the dying of the light. And, hand in hand with the anger, like an angel and a demon walking into the sunset, there is love: for human beings, in all our fallibility; for treasured objects; for stories; and ultimately and in all things, love for human dignity.
Or to put it another way, anger is the engine that drives him, but it is the greatness of spirit that deploys that anger on the side of the angels, or better yet for all of us, the orangutans.www.theguardian.com/books/2014/sep/24/terry-pratchett-angry-not-jolly-neil-gaiman
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Post by Hrungr on Feb 11, 2018 20:33:14 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2018 20:36:03 GMT
Unpopular opinion: I really like Gaider as a person and never thought he was particularly "mean" - sarcastic, sure, and unwilling to play nice with people who didn't play nice with him, but as I recall he wasn't some huge dickweed?? Like, mildly dickweedy, maybe. My kind of person. edit: apparently not as unpopular as I thought! I think he likes to tweak the noses of fans who take the games too seriously - "Alistair never loved you." for example. It seems like there's a little bit of Gaider in all of the characters he's written, from sarcastic sweeties like Alistair and Dorian, to pitiless grumps like Loghain and Cass. I do hope he comes back to the DA franchise in some form, eventually.
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Post by vertigomez on Feb 11, 2018 20:47:33 GMT
Unpopular opinion: I really like Gaider as a person and never thought he was particularly "mean" - sarcastic, sure, and unwilling to play nice with people who didn't play nice with him, but as I recall he wasn't some huge dickweed?? Like, mildly dickweedy, maybe. My kind of person. edit: apparently not as unpopular as I thought! I think he likes to tweak the noses of fans who take the games too seriously - "Alistair never loved you." for example. It seems like there's a little bit of Gaider in all of the characters he's written, from sarcastic sweeties like Alistair and Dorian, to pitiless grumps like Loghain and Cass. I do hope he comes back to the DA franchise in some form, eventually. Ah yes, the snow globe meltdown. Good times.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Feb 11, 2018 21:08:14 GMT
I see what you mean, but I guess I'm just okay with public relations being, well... less PR and more blunt lol. I found it refreshing. His superiors obviously didn't care, so it's all moot, really. And now here we are, on a non-official forum, scouring social media for any crumbs the devs happen to drop instead of engaging with them on any meaningful level. No, I don't consider condensed tweets to be meaningful discussions, especially compared to some of the lengthier posts that were had on Ye Olde BSN. Yes, I'm still bitter about the forum closure and them deciding to nuke an entire community, including all its content, most of which is non-recoverable.
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Post by phoray on Feb 11, 2018 21:11:09 GMT
the snark, so strong. Great that a fan made him a commemorative snow globe. I'm sure it reminds Gaider of good things.
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Post by rras1994 on Feb 11, 2018 21:20:44 GMT
I see what you mean, but I guess I'm just okay with public relations being, well... less PR and more blunt lol. I found it refreshing. His superiors obviously didn't care, so it's all moot, really. And now here we are, on a non-official forum, scouring social media for any crumbs the devs happen to drop instead of engaging with them on any meaningful level. No, I don't consider condensed tweets to be meaningful discussions, especially compared to some of the lengthier posts that were had on Ye Olde BSN. Yes, I'm still bitter about the forum closure and them deciding to nuke an entire community, including all its content, most of which is non-recoverable. I get where you are coming from but I've gone on the forums EA still have (The Sims and SWTOR) and trust me you were not going to get devs engaging you on a meaningful level. Those places are practically a dumpster fire, and any time I see a dev come on they get attacked. And there's numerous "let's get a dev fired" campaigns going on, with people putting them in their sig. And I'll point out that SWTOR is a forum where you have to be a subscriber to use which means they pay to do that shit. And The Sims? That may be the worst gaming community I have ever seen in someways - the amount of hate that comes out over very small things is scary. Official forums just seem to attract a really bad element. And I can't really fault the devs for not wanting to put up with it.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Feb 11, 2018 21:31:16 GMT
I get where you are coming from but I've gone on the forums EA still have (The Sims and SWTOR) and trust me you were not going to get devs engaging you on a meaningful level. It was more about the "nuking an entire community" aspect. People tried to explain this to them at the time, but the powers that be did not care. When the forums were closed, the devs were making spare appearances, and that had been the status quo for several months. Yet the forums still went on and the community was active. It wasn't really about the devs; the slim possibility that they might pop in with some insight was simply a bonus. [edit] In addition, a great deal of content is now lost. All of the files on the BSN, mods and such, that didn't happen to be saved, are just gone forever. DA wiki linked to several posts and many of those sources are no longer available and their links dead. Fextralife got a great deal of the forum itself, but not everything. Incidentally, this is one reason people were upset about the implementation of the DA Keep, that its existence on the internet is entirely dependent on the whims of some company overlord. It's entirely possible that one day they will shut it down for good and people won't be able to use it. I am a HUGE supporter of the DA Keep, but I also completely understand those concerns. And it's not like EA hasn't done that in the past.
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Post by rras1994 on Feb 11, 2018 21:36:13 GMT
I get where you are coming from but I've gone on the forums EA still have (The Sims and SWTOR) and trust me you were not going to get devs engaging you on a meaningful level. It was more about the "nuking an entire community" aspect. People tried to explain this to them at the time, but the power that be did not care. When the forums were closed, the devs were making spare appearances, and that had been the status quo for several months. Yet the forums still went on and the community was active. It wasn't really about the devs; the slim possibility that they might pop in with some insight was simply a bonus. Yeah, but companies don't really want to fund breeding grounds for the harassment of their staff so I can see their side, even though there was a community which wasn't engaging in that crap. The bad "fans" ruin everything :/ At least we have this place
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Post by arvaarad on Feb 11, 2018 22:36:29 GMT
It was more about the "nuking an entire community" aspect. People tried to explain this to them at the time, but the power that be did not care. When the forums were closed, the devs were making spare appearances, and that had been the status quo for several months. Yet the forums still went on and the community was active. It wasn't really about the devs; the slim possibility that they might pop in with some insight was simply a bonus. Yeah, but companies don't really want to fund breeding grounds for the harassment of their staff so I can see their side, even though there was a community which wasn't engaging in that crap. The bad "fans" ruin everything :/ At least we have this place Every time I try to picture the situation, I come to the conclusion that videogame companies’ recruiters must be really persuasive. “So, let me get this straight. We’re offering a job with less money, gruelling hours, less job security, and way more shouty internet people than the other jobs these candidates would be qualified for?” “Well, when you put it that way...” “Psh, no problem! Let me just take care of this elf-blooded chevalier that keeps following me, and I’ll have them signing anything you want.”
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Post by Bondari the Reloader on Feb 11, 2018 23:11:45 GMT
Reading articles like this makes me wonder if things are just as bad for employees in other creative production industries. I'm thinking of things like movie/TV production, where people work on specific projects instead of standard hours, jobs that seem creative and fun, jobs that people feel grateful/lucky to be a part of. I know the potential for burnout is there, as well (as it is in any job, really), but maybe there are some lessons that could be learned from other industries with similar work patterns.
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Post by Hrungr on Feb 11, 2018 23:26:09 GMT
Reading articles like this makes me wonder if things are just as bad for employees in other creative production industries. I'm thinking of things like movie/TV production, where people work on specific projects instead of standard hours, jobs that seem creative and fun, jobs that people feel grateful/lucky to be a part of. I know the potential for burnout is there, as well (as it is in any job, really), but maybe there are some lessons that could be learned from other industries with similar work patterns. I have friends who work in film/tv and for some, 12 hour days is the norm.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Feb 11, 2018 23:28:36 GMT
I'm thinking of things like movie/TV production, where people work on specific projects instead of standard hours, jobs that seem creative and fun, jobs that people feel grateful/lucky to be a part of. No, and for the simple fact that many of them have unions, whereas game devs do not. The motion picture industry has a union for seemingly everything, and each of those unions represent their members and their specific needs differently. There is even one for grips and craft services people.Incidentally, I disagreed with the game devs who thought that the VAs and their union should have fought for them. SAGAFTRA represents their paying members. They pay dues for that specific representation. Starting a union is hard. People have died, been murdered, or even just lost work, in attempts to start unions. But that is what they have to do if they want to end the scourge of crunch. The key would be in the bigger names and project leads* who have power and built a reputation with a successful franchise, because those are close to irreplaceable. Those are the ones who will have a chance of it getting off the ground, not some coder or QA tester that can be tossed out for making a fuss. Of course, that doesn't mean that some of the VAs, when asked about game devs, should have brushed aside those concerns either. Both sides were at fault in that squabble. * You can bet that if 20+ Mark Darrahs from different companies on different projects got together, the corporate overlords would start listening. Unity is important. There aren't enough qualified people to replace all of them in order to keep the projects going on schedule.
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