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Post by Hrungr on Feb 21, 2018 23:10:05 GMT
Patrick Weekes just did a handful of tweets about the war table and some of it touches upon what you're discussing: (I bet Hrungr is gonna ninja me in the time it takes me to copy-paste them - edit: oh, he didn't! I hope he didn't die or something ) Patrick Weekes @patrickweekesAlso, most of the time, choosing one adviser over another is just flavor, and then you stop reading the text and accidentally wipe out your Dalish clan because oops that one mattered. (This was maybe not the best design choice. My bad.) kotaku.com/dragon-age-inquisition-s-war-table-brought-the-wider-w-1823169693A minor Hindsight Goggles dev thread: most or all of the writers did war table operations. Luke K and I did many of the more complex ones -- ones with choices beyond "different flavor text/reward at the end" (not all us, but some). We did some that were "different operation opens up later" -- dealing with Orlesian politics, setting up a wedding, for example. I feel like those are fine. But I specifically did some that included more puzzle/win-or-lose scenarios. The Belles of Hunter Fell, sending Grey Wardens on missions after Adamant, missions with the Chargers or the Ben-Hassrath, and of course, your Dalish clan. Again, some of these feel fine in retrospect. Belles of Hunter Fell is just a logic puzzle (albeit one I expected you to take notes for or remember over several hours of unrelated gameplay), and the stakes are low. The Grey Wardens and Ben-Hassrath war table arcs I feel bad about because it's tracking a bunch of math under the hood, and they felt easy and intuitive when I made them, but again, it could be dozens of hours between each mission. I didn't visualize gameplay well. And the Dalish Clan arc, while fair if you read carefully, is unfair in that the cloud of other operations teaches you to not worry about reading carefully. (Beyond the fundamental "this plot is too big/personal to be good as a war table op." So anyway, no big moral, except that by the time a lot of this stuff is done, devs often see too late which parts don't fit together the way they imagined, and then sigh, and try to do better next time. Thanks for getting this! Too... many... meetings... today...
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Post by Hrungr on Feb 21, 2018 23:24:51 GMT
Draec michael _ColesI rememeber reloading a 4 hour old save to not completely fuck over the Grey Wardens. I love the war table, I hate the war table, I love the war table. Mary Kirby @biomarykirbyThings We Did Not Know When Writing War Table Missions: 1. You can't read missions you've completed. They are lost forever, like tears in the rain. 2. The actual amount of real time that would elapse between selecting a mission and completing it. 3. What the actual rewards would be, other than more War Table missions. 4. Whether anyone was ever going to look at the War Table missions. Like, ever. Had we known any of these things in advance, we would have made... changes. Probably. Ian S. Frazier @tibermoonProbably. [HASH]DAT
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on Feb 21, 2018 23:28:39 GMT
Draec michael _ColesI rememeber reloading a 4 hour old save to not completely fuck over the Grey Wardens. I love the war table, I hate the war table, I love the war table. Mary Kirby @biomarykirbyThings We Did Not Know When Writing War Table Missions: 1. You can't read missions you've completed. They are lost forever, like tears in the rain. 2. The actual amount of real time that would elapse between selecting a mission and completing it. 3. What the actual rewards would be, other than more War Table missions. 4. Whether anyone was ever going to look at the War Table missions. Like, ever. Had we known any of these things in advance, we would have made... changes. Probably. Ian S. Frazier @tibermoonProbably. Wow. It's a shame the process is that disconnected. Not saying that to belittle or blame. Just, hopefully the writers can become more connected to the end product at some point in the future.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Feb 21, 2018 23:56:04 GMT
Wow. It's a shame the process is that disconnected. Not saying that to belittle or blame. Just, hopefully the writers can become more connected to the end product at some point in the future. The wording is, "Had we known any of these things in advance, we would have made... changes. Probably." I take "in advance" to mean while they were doing all of the writing. I'm sure there is a lot of writing going on now for DA4, but as the game is not actively being developed, they don't know how that will be affected by the game design portion of things. For the war table, they write out all this material, and then the practical side of it starts to get along with the development of said war table and how it's going to work, but by then it's too late to change anything. They can't just keep iterating on what they've done, or else it would never be finished.
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on Feb 22, 2018 0:02:07 GMT
Wow. It's a shame the process is that disconnected. Not saying that to belittle or blame. Just, hopefully the writers can become more connected to the end product at some point in the future. The wording is, "Had we known any of these things in advance, we would have made... changes. Probably." I take "in advance" to mean while they were doing all of the writing. I'm sure there is a lot of writing going on now for DA4, but as the game is not actively being developed, they don't know how that will be affected by the game design portion of things. For the war table, they write out all this material, and then the practical side of it starts to get along with the development of said war table and how it's going to work, but by then it's too late to change anything. They can't just keep iterating on what they've done, or else it would never be finished. Right, I understand. Hopefully a process evolves that lets the writers be involved almost all the way up to finished product. For example, in movies, it's becoming easier for directors to see CGI effects in advance because the technology is becoming available for them to get a preview - not only that they can virtually walk through the CGI effects and sets. Something like that for game development would be handy for the divisions working together making an end point.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Feb 22, 2018 0:39:17 GMT
Right, I understand. Hopefully a process evolves that lets the writers be involved almost all the way up to finished product. But there's not a suggestion that they aren't currently involved. At some point, they have to say, "The writing is done." The writers also do testing. I even asked DG about it once (emphasis added):
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on Feb 22, 2018 0:45:41 GMT
Right, I understand. Hopefully a process evolves that lets the writers be involved almost all the way up to finished product. But there's not a suggestion that they aren't currently involved. At some point, they have to say, "The writing is done." The writers also do testing. I even asked DG about it once (emphasis added):They said that they didn't know certain game mechanics were going to be in play and they may have changed some things. This leads me to believe they need to be more involved in the entire process and they are being left out at some point - left out in a way that's possibly productive/helpful - as writers. It would be better if they were not relegated to doing QA and grousing things that can't currently be changed. Hopefully technology and process will advance so that this will happen - especially in games that depend heavily on the writing. Of course they have to say at some point that the writing is done. All I'm saying is that the closer that is to the end point, the better.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Feb 22, 2018 0:52:37 GMT
I look at it in a different way than you, but we're just going to end up repeating ourselves, which is partly based on the fact that neither of us actually know what goes on during the process and how things are done.
Heck, I'm still annoyed that they couldn't settle on a single pronunciation for "amatus" (there are four, if you include Trespasser). So yeah, I get it lol.
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Post by Hrungr on Feb 22, 2018 2:18:58 GMT
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Post by Hrungr on Feb 22, 2018 2:53:17 GMT
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Post by Hrungr on Feb 22, 2018 3:37:41 GMT
Patrick Weekes just did a handful of tweets about the war table and some of it touches upon what you're discussing: (I bet Hrungr is gonna ninja me in the time it takes me to copy-paste them - edit: oh, he didn't! I hope he didn't die or something ) Patrick Weekes @patrickweekesAlso, most of the time, choosing one adviser over another is just flavor, and then you stop reading the text and accidentally wipe out your Dalish clan because oops that one mattered. (This was maybe not the best design choice. My bad.) kotaku.com/dragon-age-inquisition-s-war-table-brought-the-wider-w-1823169693A minor Hindsight Goggles dev thread: most or all of the writers did war table operations. Luke K and I did many of the more complex ones -- ones with choices beyond "different flavor text/reward at the end" (not all us, but some). We did some that were "different operation opens up later" -- dealing with Orlesian politics, setting up a wedding, for example. I feel like those are fine. But I specifically did some that included more puzzle/win-or-lose scenarios. The Belles of Hunter Fell, sending Grey Wardens on missions after Adamant, missions with the Chargers or the Ben-Hassrath, and of course, your Dalish clan. Again, some of these feel fine in retrospect. Belles of Hunter Fell is just a logic puzzle (albeit one I expected you to take notes for or remember over several hours of unrelated gameplay), and the stakes are low. The Grey Wardens and Ben-Hassrath war table arcs I feel bad about because it's tracking a bunch of math under the hood, and they felt easy and intuitive when I made them, but again, it could be dozens of hours between each mission. I didn't visualize gameplay well. And the Dalish Clan arc, while fair if you read carefully, is unfair in that the cloud of other operations teaches you to not worry about reading carefully. (Beyond the fundamental "this plot is too big/personal to be good as a war table op." So anyway, no big moral, except that by the time a lot of this stuff is done, devs often see too late which parts don't fit together the way they imagined, and then sigh, and try to do better next time. Mike Laidlaw @mike_LaidlawI just think every piece of war table content should have been lovingly rendered as an hour-long cinematic plot with a unique boss fight each. I read on the internet that's what not-lazy devs do. Thank god Laidlaw is gone. Patrick Weekes @patrickweekesIt was so weird, his last words before leaving were, “Patrick, hold firm to no dwarven romance like @davidgaider wanted, and also don’t put a face-changer or a storage chest in the game until late in the DLC cycle. Do it for me.” I would’ve said bye I’ll miss you but whatever! Mike Laidlaw @mike_LaidlawAlso "Be sure to do whatever it is that ends up making both fans and not-fans mad. Do it for me, Patrick." [HASH]DAT
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on Feb 22, 2018 3:43:02 GMT
I believe in the Boy Scout motto. Be prepared. :amirite:
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Post by Hrungr on Feb 22, 2018 3:47:58 GMT
Patrick Weekes just did a handful of tweets about the war table and some of it touches upon what you're discussing: (I bet Hrungr is gonna ninja me in the time it takes me to copy-paste them - edit: oh, he didn't! I hope he didn't die or something ) Patrick Weekes @patrickweekesAlso, most of the time, choosing one adviser over another is just flavor, and then you stop reading the text and accidentally wipe out your Dalish clan because oops that one mattered. (This was maybe not the best design choice. My bad.) kotaku.com/dragon-age-inquisition-s-war-table-brought-the-wider-w-1823169693A minor Hindsight Goggles dev thread: most or all of the writers did war table operations. Luke K and I did many of the more complex ones -- ones with choices beyond "different flavor text/reward at the end" (not all us, but some). We did some that were "different operation opens up later" -- dealing with Orlesian politics, setting up a wedding, for example. I feel like those are fine. But I specifically did some that included more puzzle/win-or-lose scenarios. The Belles of Hunter Fell, sending Grey Wardens on missions after Adamant, missions with the Chargers or the Ben-Hassrath, and of course, your Dalish clan. Again, some of these feel fine in retrospect. Belles of Hunter Fell is just a logic puzzle (albeit one I expected you to take notes for or remember over several hours of unrelated gameplay), and the stakes are low. The Grey Wardens and Ben-Hassrath war table arcs I feel bad about because it's tracking a bunch of math under the hood, and they felt easy and intuitive when I made them, but again, it could be dozens of hours between each mission. I didn't visualize gameplay well. And the Dalish Clan arc, while fair if you read carefully, is unfair in that the cloud of other operations teaches you to not worry about reading carefully. (Beyond the fundamental "this plot is too big/personal to be good as a war table op." So anyway, no big moral, except that by the time a lot of this stuff is done, devs often see too late which parts don't fit together the way they imagined, and then sigh, and try to do better next time. Mike Laidlaw @mike_LaidlawI just think every piece of war table content should have been lovingly rendered as an hour-long cinematic plot with a unique boss fight each. I read on the internet that's what not-lazy devs do. Thank god Laidlaw is gone. Patrick Weekes @patrickweekesIt was so weird, his last words before leaving were, “Patrick, hold firm to no dwarven romance like @davidgaider wanted, and also don’t put a face-changer or a storage chest in the game until late in the DLC cycle. Do it for me.” I would’ve said bye I’ll miss you but whatever! Mike Laidlaw @mike_LaidlawAlso "Be sure to do whatever it is that ends up making both fans and not-fans mad. Do it for me, Patrick." David Gaider @davidgaider
I will cut you, Weekes.
pbs.twimg.com/media/DWnEsByVAAI2g_s.jpg
Patrick Weekes @patrickweekes
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Patrick Weekes @patrickweekesSlow, methodical, detailed turn-based grid-based combat... and hardcore pulse-pounding jiggle-physics-using interactive sex scenes. [HASH]DAT
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on Feb 22, 2018 3:48:52 GMT
Patrick Weekes just did a handful of tweets about the war table and some of it touches upon what you're discussing: (I bet Hrungr is gonna ninja me in the time it takes me to copy-paste them - edit: oh, he didn't! I hope he didn't die or something ) Patrick Weekes @patrickweekesAlso, most of the time, choosing one adviser over another is just flavor, and then you stop reading the text and accidentally wipe out your Dalish clan because oops that one mattered. (This was maybe not the best design choice. My bad.) kotaku.com/dragon-age-inquisition-s-war-table-brought-the-wider-w-1823169693A minor Hindsight Goggles dev thread: most or all of the writers did war table operations. Luke K and I did many of the more complex ones -- ones with choices beyond "different flavor text/reward at the end" (not all us, but some). We did some that were "different operation opens up later" -- dealing with Orlesian politics, setting up a wedding, for example. I feel like those are fine. But I specifically did some that included more puzzle/win-or-lose scenarios. The Belles of Hunter Fell, sending Grey Wardens on missions after Adamant, missions with the Chargers or the Ben-Hassrath, and of course, your Dalish clan. Again, some of these feel fine in retrospect. Belles of Hunter Fell is just a logic puzzle (albeit one I expected you to take notes for or remember over several hours of unrelated gameplay), and the stakes are low. The Grey Wardens and Ben-Hassrath war table arcs I feel bad about because it's tracking a bunch of math under the hood, and they felt easy and intuitive when I made them, but again, it could be dozens of hours between each mission. I didn't visualize gameplay well. And the Dalish Clan arc, while fair if you read carefully, is unfair in that the cloud of other operations teaches you to not worry about reading carefully. (Beyond the fundamental "this plot is too big/personal to be good as a war table op." So anyway, no big moral, except that by the time a lot of this stuff is done, devs often see too late which parts don't fit together the way they imagined, and then sigh, and try to do better next time. Mike Laidlaw @mike_LaidlawI just think every piece of war table content should have been lovingly rendered as an hour-long cinematic plot with a unique boss fight each. I read on the internet that's what not-lazy devs do. Thank god Laidlaw is gone. Patrick Weekes @patrickweekesIt was so weird, his last words before leaving were, “Patrick, hold firm to no dwarven romance like @davidgaider wanted, and also don’t put a face-changer or a storage chest in the game until late in the DLC cycle. Do it for me.” I would’ve said bye I’ll miss you but whatever! Mike Laidlaw @mike_LaidlawAlso "Be sure to do whatever it is that ends up making both fans and not-fans mad. Do it for me, Patrick." Methinks poor Laidlaw definitely needs this therapeutic time away from fans. Ugh. The public.
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on Feb 22, 2018 3:51:25 GMT
Mike Laidlaw @mike_LaidlawI just think every piece of war table content should have been lovingly rendered as an hour-long cinematic plot with a unique boss fight each. I read on the internet that's what not-lazy devs do. Thank god Laidlaw is gone. Patrick Weekes @patrickweekesIt was so weird, his last words before leaving were, “Patrick, hold firm to no dwarven romance like @davidgaider wanted, and also don’t put a face-changer or a storage chest in the game until late in the DLC cycle. Do it for me.” I would’ve said bye I’ll miss you but whatever! Mike Laidlaw @mike_LaidlawAlso "Be sure to do whatever it is that ends up making both fans and not-fans mad. Do it for me, Patrick." David Gaider @davidgaider
I will cut you, Weekes.
pbs.twimg.com/media/DWnEsByVAAI2g_s.jpg
Patrick Weekes @patrickweekesSlow, methodical, detailed turn-based grid-based combat... and hardcore pulse-pounding jiggle-physics-using interactive sex scenes. Sheesh and Weekes too...
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Post by Hrungr on Feb 22, 2018 3:51:30 GMT
Patrick Weekes just did a handful of tweets about the war table and some of it touches upon what you're discussing: (I bet Hrungr is gonna ninja me in the time it takes me to copy-paste them - edit: oh, he didn't! I hope he didn't die or something ) Patrick Weekes @patrickweekesAlso, most of the time, choosing one adviser over another is just flavor, and then you stop reading the text and accidentally wipe out your Dalish clan because oops that one mattered. (This was maybe not the best design choice. My bad.) kotaku.com/dragon-age-inquisition-s-war-table-brought-the-wider-w-1823169693A minor Hindsight Goggles dev thread: most or all of the writers did war table operations. Luke K and I did many of the more complex ones -- ones with choices beyond "different flavor text/reward at the end" (not all us, but some). We did some that were "different operation opens up later" -- dealing with Orlesian politics, setting up a wedding, for example. I feel like those are fine. But I specifically did some that included more puzzle/win-or-lose scenarios. The Belles of Hunter Fell, sending Grey Wardens on missions after Adamant, missions with the Chargers or the Ben-Hassrath, and of course, your Dalish clan. Again, some of these feel fine in retrospect. Belles of Hunter Fell is just a logic puzzle (albeit one I expected you to take notes for or remember over several hours of unrelated gameplay), and the stakes are low. The Grey Wardens and Ben-Hassrath war table arcs I feel bad about because it's tracking a bunch of math under the hood, and they felt easy and intuitive when I made them, but again, it could be dozens of hours between each mission. I didn't visualize gameplay well. And the Dalish Clan arc, while fair if you read carefully, is unfair in that the cloud of other operations teaches you to not worry about reading carefully. (Beyond the fundamental "this plot is too big/personal to be good as a war table op." So anyway, no big moral, except that by the time a lot of this stuff is done, devs often see too late which parts don't fit together the way they imagined, and then sigh, and try to do better next time. Mike Laidlaw @mike_LaidlawI just think every piece of war table content should have been lovingly rendered as an hour-long cinematic plot with a unique boss fight each. I read on the internet that's what not-lazy devs do. Thank god Laidlaw is gone. David Gaider @davidgaiderThere were plans, man. PLANS. I even made, like, an entire design document for it. ME. It was my SPECIAL BABY. Mike Laidlaw @mike_LaidlawI remember. And I'm sorry. David Gaider @davidgaiderNah, it's good. I'm surprised it got in even in the form it did. I had good money on it being cut-bait. [HASH]DAT
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Post by Hrungr on Feb 22, 2018 3:54:44 GMT
Amy Petty @apetty77 I would gladly have taken an hour's cut for something else if you guys had only just given us an actual quest to meet and interact with Rhys and Evangeline. I'll never forgive you for that. *cries*
Mike Laidlaw @mike_Laidlaw I believe it was originally planned but then games are hard to make happened.
Patrick Weekes @patrickweekes I THINK it was originally Cole’s personal plot, and IIRC, it was super sweet for folks who had read Asunder and a giant dud for folks who hadn’t. Only had time/budget for one plot, had to make it accessible for anyone playing, not just Asunder readers.
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Post by Hrungr on Feb 22, 2018 3:58:44 GMT
Amy Petty @apetty77 So like but yeah, what DO you guys have against dwarf love anyhow? It's right up there with your determination to genocide the Dalish out of existence one clan at a time.
David Gaider @davidgaider Nothing, really. I once tried for three days to convince @biomarykirby to make Varric romanceable, but to no avail. The stars just never aligned.
~haha! wonder if she bought that!~
Wait, was that part out loud?
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on Feb 22, 2018 4:01:55 GMT
Amy Petty @apetty77So like but yeah, what DO you guys have against dwarf love anyhow? It's right up there with your determination to genocide the Dalish out of existence one clan at a time. David Gaider @davidgaiderNothing, really. I once tried for three days to convince @biomarykirby to make Varric romanceable, but to no avail. The stars just never aligned. ~haha! wonder if she bought that!~ Wait, was that part out loud?
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Post by TheodoricFriede on Feb 22, 2018 4:06:36 GMT
Suddenly the devs are all active.
I like to imagine it means something, but I also like to imagine chocolate air... So probably means nothing.
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Post by ladyiolanthe on Feb 22, 2018 4:09:39 GMT
Suddenly the devs are all active. I like to imagine it means something, but I also like to imagine chocolate air... So probably means nothing. Considering that only one of them is actually still a Dragon Age / BioWare dev, I think it doesn't mean anything except that they still like each other a lot.
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Post by TheodoricFriede on Feb 22, 2018 4:12:16 GMT
Considering that only one of them is actually still a Dragon Age / BioWare dev, I think it doesn't mean anything except that they still like each other a lot. Mmmmm... Chocolate Air....
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Post by midnight tea on Feb 22, 2018 4:14:41 GMT
Suddenly the devs are all active. I like to imagine it means something, but I also like to imagine chocolate air... So probably means nothing. Considering that only one of them is actually still a Dragon Age / BioWare dev, I think it doesn't mean anything except that they still like each other a lot. And they probably like to sometimes reminisce about their times on creative battlefield
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Post by Nightscrawl on Feb 22, 2018 4:55:38 GMT
Why do people keep saying this with whatever thing? They have NO IDEA what that hour of content would be and always seem to assume it would miraculously be something they don't care for or aren't interested in.
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Post by midnight tea on Feb 22, 2018 5:01:42 GMT
Why do people keep saying this with whatever thing? They have NO IDEA what that hour of content would be and always seem to assume it would miraculously be something they don't care for or aren't interested in. Yea - plus, for me cutting numerous things for a single scene with side character just ain't worth it. Story-wise, or lore-wise or even gameplay-wise I get way more from the former than from the latter.
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