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Post by phoray on Apr 4, 2018 18:54:52 GMT
Plus, some of the other dialogue options give more of an approval than romance options we can pick in some circumstances. I've always been curious how many actual flirts one has to use to get the romance to Trigger. |
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Apr 4, 2018 19:08:34 GMT
There are disapproval points with Cass if you flirt with her during one of investigate options (I think it was tell me about yourself one) and your approval is too low with her, so BioWare's already trying that. Oh, I meant like... Imagine if the entire left bar were flirt options and the entire right collumn were non flirt options. Among the three Heart Flirt Options, one Cass would like, one Cass would feel neutral about, and one Cass would actually think you're an ass for. I like the idea of different kinds of flirts. MEA did that a few times with some of the romances, and it was a great way to build your character in that respect rather than just having one flirt. |
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Post by Walter Black on Apr 4, 2018 19:13:52 GMT
Oh, I meant like... Imagine if the entire left bar were flirt options and the entire right collumn were non flirt options. Among the three Heart Flirt Options, one Cass would like, one Cass would feel neutral about, and one Cass would actually think you're an ass for. I like the idea of different kinds of flirts. MEA did that a few times with some of the romances, and it was a great way to build your character in that respect rather than just having one flirt. While nice in theory, having multiple "right' and "wrong" flirts might be an unnecessary strain on the word budget. Maybe it might be better to concentrate that nuance in the romance quests themselves. |
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Post by Walter Black on Apr 4, 2018 19:32:47 GMT
But that's another problem altogether, as RPGs are supposed to be the player's story. who and what we care about. Just because the writers like a particular character enough to make them mandatory and assume players should enjoy them too, doesn't mean we will care about them one way or the other. Plus, optional and non-Companion romances can often have lesser and/or inferior quality to compulsory Companions (looking at you, Gill  ). I guess that's one thing I prefer about Obsidian over Bioware, in that all their Companions are fully fleshed out but never mandatory. It will be interesting to see how they do romance in Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire   .
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Post by phoray on Apr 4, 2018 19:37:53 GMT
I like the idea of different kinds of flirts. MEA did that a few times with some of the romances, and it was a great way to build your character in that respect rather than just having one flirt. While nice in theory, having multiple "right' and "wrong" flirts might be an unnecessary strain on the word budget. Maybe it might be better to concentrate that nuance in the romance quests themselves. It's never a waste of a word budget to have more lines to express your PC's personality. If I'm playing someone awkward, than I want to flirt awkwardly. If I'm suave, I want to be suave. One huge inpediment to flirting with Suvi in MEA is just how much of an awkward crime it is to embarrass yourself that way if you're playing a person who wouldn't get flustered at giving a compliment. Ryder is 21 or older, I didn't flirt like that was when I was seventeen! SO if I ever bother to romance Suvi, it'll be someone I'd have to hand craft to be that flustered by calling someone pretty. Some sort of virgin I guess. So, ya, sometimes I heavily dislike the Single Option Flirt, I have to create PCs from scratch that would let such stupid come out of their mouths. |
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Apr 4, 2018 19:54:45 GMT
The essay is all over the place and 90% disconnected observations, but two points I thought rang true: - DA and ME romances are driven by "saying the right thing" or by gift giving, which can be a plot and characterization minefield if "saying the right thing" is conflated with moral choices, and I might add, or in conflict with RP choices.
- Romances aren't organic in games, as they usually are in real life. They serve some secret agenda, like setting up a tragedy.
The second point is more subject to counter-examples. Uncharted actually does a pretty good job of tracing an organic relationship between Nathan Drake and Elena Fisher, and takes multiple game iterations to do so. It's also a pretty traditional boy meets girl, boy loses girl, boy gets girl, boy gets girl pregnant ... story arc, though with some nice film-influenced twists along the way.  |
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Apr 4, 2018 20:17:28 GMT
While nice in theory, having multiple "right' and "wrong" flirts might be an unnecessary strain on the word budget. Maybe it might be better to concentrate that nuance in the romance quests themselves. It's never a waste of a word budget to have more lines to express your PC's personality. If I'm playing someone awkward, than I want to flirt awkwardly. If I'm suave, I want to be suave. One huge inpediment to flirting with Suvi in MEA is just how much of an awkward crime it is to embarrass yourself that way if you're playing a person who wouldn't get flustered at giving a compliment. Ryder is 21 or older, I didn't flirt like that was when I was seventeen! SO if I ever bother to romance Suvi, it'll be someone I'd have to hand craft to be that flustered by calling someone pretty. Some sort of virgin I guess. So, ya, sometimes I heavily dislike the Single Option Flirt, I have to create PCs from scratch that would let such stupid come out of their mouths. In that scene you are referring to, that is one of the scenes where you have a couple options. One can be the really adorkable one that you are referring to(love that flirt), and another is more you saying how you like to talk science with her and is much less flustered. |
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Post by phoray on Apr 4, 2018 20:26:34 GMT
In that scene you are referring to, that is one of the scenes where you have a couple options. One can be the really adorkable one that you are referring to(love that flirt), and another is more you saying how you like to talk science with her and is much less flustered. Oh. Interesting, the only one that's ever come up in videos is the awful one. Well then, seems Bioware is already moving the direction towards Multiple Flirt Choices then, although I don't recall a lot in the Jaal romance. |
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Apr 4, 2018 20:28:42 GMT
In that scene you are referring to, that is one of the scenes where you have a couple options. One can be the really adorkable one that you are referring to(love that flirt), and another is more you saying how you like to talk science with her and is much less flustered. Oh. Interesting, the only one that's ever come up in videos is the awful one. Well then, seems Bioware is already moving the direction towards Multiple Flirt Choices then, although I don't recall a lot in the Jaal romance. I can't really speak for most of the romances, but yeah both Suvi's and Cora's have at least one. Especially Cora's since her romance has two paths. |
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Post by colfoley on Apr 4, 2018 20:51:58 GMT
Oh. Interesting, the only one that's ever come up in videos is the awful one. Well then, seems Bioware is already moving the direction towards Multiple Flirt Choices then, although I don't recall a lot in the Jaal romance. I can't really speak for most of the romances, but yeah both Suvi's and Cora's have at least one. Especially Cora's since her romance has two paths. I did like that. |
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Hrungr
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Post by Hrungr on Apr 4, 2018 23:26:49 GMT
Joseph La Russa @joseph_La_Russa@patrickweekes @davidgaider Any thoughts on this article? Asking because it directly calls out Dragon Age, curious for your opinions. David Gaider @davidgaiderI don't know that "realistic" romance is necessarily the goal in a game that isn't *about* romance. To each their own, I guess. [hash]DAT
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Post by ladyiolanthe on Apr 5, 2018 1:00:52 GMT
And as either one of the Weekes or Gaider mentioned at HavenCon this past weekend, Dragon Age and Mass Effect romances are already extremely expensive ($500,000 to over $1,000,000 for EACH romance to cover the costs of animations, voices, etc. for romance-specific content), so it seems extremely doubtful that we'll ever get really in-depth romances in a game series that isn't actually a dating sim. That Reddit post has been deleted so I have no useful link to offer - here's where it was: https://www.reddit.com/r/dragonage/comments/88yxhp/dai_spoilers_dragon_age_things_from_havencon_2018/
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Post by Nightscrawl on Apr 5, 2018 1:07:00 GMT
That Reddit post has been deleted ... Why was it deleted? |
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Post by ladyiolanthe on Apr 5, 2018 1:08:16 GMT
That Reddit post has been deleted ... Why was it deleted? The OP explains that in a comment a little ways down the Reddit page. |
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Post by Nightscrawl on Apr 5, 2018 2:04:49 GMT
The OP explains that in a comment a little ways down the Reddit page. Thanks. Shame that happened, since it had a lot of interesting bits that are now forever lost. Partially lost... it's still cached, so I was able to save it for my own reading. |
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Post by theblackadder13 on Apr 5, 2018 2:06:52 GMT
And as either one of the Weekes or Gaider mentioned at HavenCon this past weekend, Dragon Age and Mass Effect romances are already extremely expensive ($500,000 to over $1,000,000 for EACH romance to cover the costs of animations, voices, etc. for romance-specific content), so it seems extremely doubtful that we'll ever get really in-depth romances in a game series that isn't actually a dating sim. That Reddit post has been deleted so I have no useful link to offer - here's where it was: https://www.reddit.com/r/dragonage/comments/88yxhp/dai_spoilers_dragon_age_things_from_havencon_2018/ Ugh wow can we just be done with romances then? I didn't realize they cost that much fugging money. I'd much rather see that invested in other content. |
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Post by thats1evildude on Apr 5, 2018 2:10:53 GMT
Something about that amount seems a little dubious. By that estimate, they’re spending as much as a FIFTH of their development budget on romances. And don’t they have to hire voice actors anyway?
Like, I get that Mark had to pull a lot of extra hours to make the Iron Bull romance work for all genders and races, and I've often heard that getting computer-animated characters to physically interact is inconceivably difficult. But the distinct smell of bullshit is in the air and it's not coming from the qunari lavatory.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Apr 5, 2018 3:15:30 GMT
Something about that amount seems a little dubious. By that estimate, they’re spending as much as a FIFTH of their development budget on romances. And don’t they have to hire voice actors anyway? Like, I get that Mark had to pull a lot of extra hours to make the Iron Bull romance work for all genders and races, and I've often heard that getting computer-animated characters to physically interact is inconceivably difficult. But the distinct smell of bullshit is in the air and it's not coming from the qunari lavatory. If you think of all the romance specific content, especially the way DAI does it, I can certainly see how it adds up. Dorian's romance quest alone has a ton of dialogue and different quest paths. His romance lock-in scene in the quarters also has a ton of dialogue and different paths. There is a lot of content. And yes, they hire VAs anyway, but they (I'm pretty sure) are paid by the line, and when you think of how many extra lines are specific to romance, it can add to the cost, in addition to the animations (especially if they are interacting with kissing, etc). |
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Post by thats1evildude on Apr 5, 2018 3:30:06 GMT
But are you counting the scenes that we all get in the normal course of befriending a party member as "romance specific content?" For example, the quest where you accompany Dorian to confront his father. Do you count that as "romance specific content" even though all that changes is a couple lines?
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Post by Nightscrawl on Apr 5, 2018 4:01:58 GMT
But are you counting the scenes that we all get in the normal course of befriending a party member as "romance specific content?" For example, the quest where you accompany Dorian to confront his father. Do you count that as "romance specific content" even though all that changes is a couple lines? No. I was counting only the things I mentioned. The amulet quest is quite involved with two lengthy scripted cinematics in two variations, as well as a non-LI NPC, as is the quarters scene with its two possible variations. That's a lot of money. Keep in mind it's not just the LI's lines, but also all of the possible responses from the PC. But I think it's fair to count those things you mention as well. After all, if there were no romances and those lines didn't exist, that is less overall expense. After re-reading your post, I think I should clarify that I'm referring to flirts, romance-oriented party banter, or romance lines that are part of the same conversation a non-romance gets, like Dorian showing his concern post-Adamant, or the "what about us" in the post-Mythal conversation. |
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Post by eriador117 on Apr 5, 2018 12:03:25 GMT
And as either one of the Weekes or Gaider mentioned at HavenCon this past weekend, Dragon Age and Mass Effect romances are already extremely expensive ($500,000 to over $1,000,000 for EACH romance to cover the costs of animations, voices, etc. for romance-specific content), so it seems extremely doubtful that we'll ever get really in-depth romances in a game series that isn't actually a dating sim. That Reddit post has been deleted so I have no useful link to offer - here's where it was: https://www.reddit.com/r/dragonage/comments/88yxhp/dai_spoilers_dragon_age_things_from_havencon_2018/ Ugh wow can we just be done with romances then? I didn't realize they cost that much fugging money. I'd much rather see that invested in other content. If there are no romances at all, then it's bye bye from me. That's what makes it more interesting to me. There are plenty of save the world games without romances. I don't play those. |
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Post by wickedcool on Apr 5, 2018 12:36:11 GMT
Wonder how much Vivienne telling us no cost. Da franchise immersion with companions is the heart of this game and that includes romance.
Do we have a total cost of dai and would love to know vs the competition
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Post by Hrungr on Apr 5, 2018 16:18:20 GMT
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Apr 5, 2018 17:12:37 GMT
Something about that amount seems a little dubious. By that estimate, they’re spending as much as a FIFTH of their development budget on romances. And don’t they have to hire voice actors anyway? Like, I get that Mark had to pull a lot of extra hours to make the Iron Bull romance work for all genders and races, and I've often heard that getting computer-animated characters to physically interact is inconceivably difficult. But the distinct smell of bullshit is in the air and it's not coming from the qunari lavatory. I think that sounds about right, 20% of the budget for all romances combined. I'm surprised you thought it would be less. Some of the targets for romance were mid-tier TV celebrities, particularly in ME2. Their VO time, not to mention the license to use their likenesses for characters, did not come cheap. Segment that cost for just the romance content and you've still got a pretty big bill to pay. You can also guesstimate by word count. Spoken dialogue is very tightly budgeted. I'd imagine the ratio of romance-specific word count to total word count, per character, is pretty high, maybe as high as 1 to 2. I'm divided on the cost/benefit. I can certainly think of better things to spend the money on, particularly if I only have time to do one or two of the dozen or so romances in a particular game, but then I think about how much of an impact certain romances had on my experience of their games, and wouldn't trade those for the world. |
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Post by thats1evildude on Apr 5, 2018 17:20:54 GMT
Likenesses aren't really an issue in Dragon Age. ME made a mistake in going that route, IMO.
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). I guess that's one thing I prefer about Obsidian over Bioware, in that all their Companions are fully fleshed out but never mandatory. It will be interesting to see how they do romance in Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire 
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