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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Dec 7, 2016 20:43:13 GMT
^^ Just to add to the discussion: Bethesda's Fall Out series and The Elder Scrolls are all self-contained stories. I felt that Skyrim, more of a sandbox to begin with, had an ending - if they never come out with another one, the story would not suffer for it. 10 years between self-contained stories is totally different from stories left with cliffhangers. Most people simply would have forgotten. "Who's that Solas fellow again?" *shrug* "Google it." "Oh...he's an Elven god that wants to destroy the world" "Good enough for me" So much context is lost . Either way, I've got plenty of games to keep me going. I agree with you, but I'm not sure Bioware does. Reading between the lines in how they talk about Trespasser, it's like the DAI story is all wrapped up. Sure, they planted some seeds for the next installment, but that's far from cliffhangery. Which has two bad implications: 1) they aren't constrained by the trajectories of the story set by DAI, they could veer off in another direction -- it's not just us that will forget, they will too, or 2) they underestimate just how powerful the Solas vs. the World seed is, just how much our fandom has embraced that reality. Unfulfilled expectations up the wazoo. On the other hand, I have faith in Patrick Weekes. He knows what he's doing, judging by his books. He's not going to leave us hanging or disappoint us with Solas vs. The World.
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on Dec 7, 2016 20:51:49 GMT
I agree with you, but I'm not sure Bioware does. Reading between the lines in how they talk about Trespasser, it's like the DAI story is all wrapped up. Sure, they planted some seeds for the next installment, but that's far from cliffhangery. Which has two bad implications: 1) they aren't constrained by the trajectories of the story set by DAI, they could veer off in another direction -- it's not just us that will forget, they will too, or 2) they underestimate just how powerful the Solas vs. the World seed is, just how much our fandom has embraced that reality. Unfulfilled expectations up the wazoo. I don't really agree with this, Weekes made it a point to tell us that the next game will conclude the story of Solas, so Bioware is well aware they've set up the next story. I think what they consider "contained" is the Inquisition. I don't totally agree with them, but I wouldn't conflate their opinion on the conclusion of the Inquisition story with them unaware they've set up expectations for the next story. They know we're all waiting to see what happens to Thedas and Solas.
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Post by Hrungr on Dec 7, 2016 21:14:54 GMT
But if you think the wait for DA4 is rough, just imagine what it's like for the Elder Scrolls fans. Bethesda wants to create not one, but two new major games before working on the next ES. Todd Howard joked how Skyrim came out in 11/11/11, so the next ES would be out in 22/22/22. That is likely close to the truth. ~10 years between releases is probably what you're looking at. Which is why I'm surprised both Bethesda and Bioware aren't moving more towards a COD/Destiny/Madden style mode of franchise. Have a yearly installment for each franchise, but skip years for "deep story content." The "good stuff" might only come out every 3 or 4 years, but in between are additional combat arenas, maps, raids, MP expansions, gear, mini-DLCs (no cutscene content), etc. It's true that a big release every 10 years doesn't necessarily hurt sales of that latest release, but a) they aren't making any or much money in between (Skyrim being a remarkable exception) and they put all of their eggs in one basket, so if the game isn't as well received by hardcore fans as they hoped (*cough* Fallout 4 *cough*), it's a giant 10 year disappointment for at least some people. Personally, Bethesda lost some of my loyalty with FO4. I didn't buy Far Harbor because of it. Speaking of Skyrim, short of a yearly installment franchise, open up the Bioware games to modding. Please. Spend the extra year it would take to support modding as a first-class feature and you'll milk 10 years of revenue out of it. It's inconceivable that this hasn't happened already. I don't care how complicated the technology is, if you can release first-party DLC, modders can mod. It's not like it's impossible. Hmm, I have no idea what would be involved to have yearly installments. Whether that would be something people would want or something BioWare could even produce at a reasonably high level of quality. RPGs being RPGs and all... As far as the 10-years-between-releases is concerned, Bethesda has enough franchises (and are building 2 new ones as we speak) to keep the money roooolling in. Same could be said (much more modestly) with BioWare and their adding a New IP (along with ME and SW). FO4 may not have been as well-received as they'd like (it was a big disappointment for me too and I haven't bought any of their DLCs), but I'm sure Aaryn would give his left testicle to have a sales hit on FO4's level (let alone Skyrim's!). I believe the issue with modding in DA is that BioWare doesn't own all the tools they use to create the game. But damn... do I ever wish they could find some way of creating a user toolset. I suspect Bethesda is going to create/move to a new engine for the next ES, but you can bet that however they go, they'll have user mod tools available. Their modding community is waaay too valuable to them.
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Post by Hrungr on Dec 7, 2016 21:56:30 GMT
Aidan Scanlan @aidanscanlan Apparently Crate & Barrel has nug ornaments
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Post by Max Deltree on Dec 7, 2016 22:31:03 GMT
Ok, you win, your experience was worse Especially cuz it was Fenris! He's my canon DA2 romance now. Oh how my fangirl heart longed to hear his voice throughout an amazing adventure where he was the focus. I remember Gaider commenting something to the effect that it would feature Bethany, but he wasn't sure how people would take it. Damn, I really love Bethany. Even though my canon main playthrough was as a mage.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Dec 7, 2016 22:44:15 GMT
Yeah, I know that's not great news for us DA fans, but I get why BioWare might want to diversify/explore something new after 10 years. But if you think the wait for DA4 is rough, just imagine what it's like for the Elder Scrolls fans. Bethesda wants to create not one, but two new major games before working on the next ES. Todd Howard joked how Skyrim came out in 11/11/11, so the next ES would be out in 22/22/22. That is likely close to the truth. ~10 years between releases is probably what you're looking at. While ES and Skyrim fans want the new shiny -- totally understandable -- I don't think it's really the same if we're comparing game worlds. The plot, story, and characters aren't the main reason people play those games, whereas that is the core draw for Dragon Age. The Skyrim fans don't have that sense of "WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN??!?!" that we have with DA, and they can basically just continue playing their radiant quests, modding their games (for console now too!!) to make them look how they want, until the next game is released. I'd compare it to waiting for the next Song of Ice and Fire novel, to be honest.
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Post by Hrungr on Dec 7, 2016 23:18:26 GMT
Yeah, I know that's not great news for us DA fans, but I get why BioWare might want to diversify/explore something new after 10 years. But if you think the wait for DA4 is rough, just imagine what it's like for the Elder Scrolls fans. Bethesda wants to create not one, but two new major games before working on the next ES. Todd Howard joked how Skyrim came out in 11/11/11, so the next ES would be out in 22/22/22. That is likely close to the truth. ~10 years between releases is probably what you're looking at. While ES and Skyrim fans want the new shiny -- totally understandable -- I don't think it's really the same if we're comparing game worlds. The plot, story, and characters aren't the main reason people play those games, whereas that is the core draw for Dragon Age. The Skyrim fans don't have that sense of "WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN??!?!" that we have with DA, and they can basically just continue playing their radiant quests, modding their games (for console now too!!) to make them look how they want, until the next game is released. I'd compare it to waiting for the next Song of Ice and Fire novel, to be honest. I dunno, the thirst is pretty strong for some ES fans... But you bring a good point about DA games being more closely tied to one another. And we have a... vague idea who the next major antagonist might be. That said, each game introduces a new protagonist, allies, enemies, main quest, etc. and does try to bring you up to speed with each new game (to make them somewhat new player friendly). And with the move north in the next game, we may have even fewer touchstones to the previous games' characters.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Dec 7, 2016 23:36:22 GMT
^ The change of setting is a major plus for me for exactly that reason. DAI went way overboard with its carryovers and cameos. But in terms of the story connection, the DA series has gotten more and more connected with each installment. DAI didn't introduce a "new" anything -- even Hawke came back -- except Solas. We had Corypheus from DA2, Samson from DA2, and the mage/templar conflict from DAO and DA2. No, you don't have to have played DA2 or the Legacy DLC to "get" DAI, but I think the experience would have been extremely lacking without it. Also, David Gaider said that the entire plot arc was cut in half. With the DAI post-credit Solas reveal, we saw how he was the instigator of it all, so it's not like they shoehorned Solas in at the last moment; he's woven through everything. Regardless of the state of the Inquisition as an organization, with Trespasser, we have a very clear lead-in to the next game. To me, that says, very clearly, that the next game is going to continue on that same story. How the Inquisitor will be involved is anybody's guess, but they will most likely be involved in some manner. Not only does the final Trespasser scene show their personal investment, but PW said that he wants to give Solas/Lavellan some sort of closure, and you can't have that without the Inquisitor present. ... Unless, you know, Solas just dies, then that's certainly "closure" of a sort.
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Post by Heimdall on Dec 7, 2016 23:41:37 GMT
While ES and Skyrim fans want the new shiny -- totally understandable -- I don't think it's really the same if we're comparing game worlds. The plot, story, and characters aren't the main reason people play those games, whereas that is the core draw for Dragon Age. The Skyrim fans don't have that sense of "WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN??!?!" that we have with DA, and they can basically just continue playing their radiant quests, modding their games (for console now too!!) to make them look how they want, until the next game is released. I'd compare it to waiting for the next Song of Ice and Fire novel, to be honest. I dunno, the thirst is pretty strong for some ES fans... But you bring a good point about DA games being more closely tied to one another. And we have a... vague idea who the next major antagonist might be. That said, each game introduces a new protagonist, allies, enemies, main quest, etc. and does try to bring you up to speed with each new game (to make them somewhat new player friendly). And with the move north in the next game, we may have even fewer touchstones to the previous games' characters. Here's hoping, though I will say that I really hated how they tried to introduce DAI to newcomers in the opening: giving Cassandra some very rushed, simplified and awkward exposition to spout in a cutscene. Personally I kinda hope we get something closer to Duncan's narration.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Dec 7, 2016 23:50:13 GMT
I'd prefer if they just embraced the serialized format, to be honest. You can still have new characters, and even a new protagonist, without the need to rehash various things like the Chantry, mage oppression, elf oppression, Evil Tevinter, conquering Qunari, the Wardens and darkspawn, and so on.
"Here is our world. Our players know what goes on in our world. So here are some new people in that same world you're already familiar with."
At this point, with a potential fourth game, I think it will be more harmful to the game as a whole to continue to cater to new players. Heck, the title alone has the potential to do that. Even if "four" isn't stated outright, they're usually marketed as "the latest installment," "the fourth game in the series," and so on. Most new players will buy the game knowing it's a fourth game and have already made the decision that they will either not know what's going on, decided to roll with it, play the previous games, or do some reading before hand.
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Post by Hrungr on Dec 8, 2016 0:27:40 GMT
^ The change of setting is a major plus for me for exactly that reason. DAI went way overboard with its carryovers and cameos. But in terms of the story connection, the DA series has gotten more and more connected with each installment. DAI didn't introduce a "new" anything -- even Hawke came back -- except Solas. We had Corypheus from DA2, Samson from DA2, and the mage/templar conflict from DAO and DA2. No, you don't have to have played DA2 or the Legacy DLC to "get" DAI, but I think the experience would have been extremely lacking without it. Also, David Gaider said that the entire plot arc was cut in half. With the DAI post-credit Solas reveal, we saw how he was the instigator of it all, so it's not like they shoehorned Solas in at the last moment; he's woven through everything. Regardless of the state of the Inquisition as an organization, with Trespasser, we have a very clear lead-in to the next game. To me, that says, very clearly, that the next game is going to continue on that same story. How the Inquisitor will be involved is anybody's guess, but they will most likely be involved in some manner. Not only does the final Trespasser scene show their personal investment, but PW said that he wants to give Solas/Lavellan some sort of closure, and you can't have that without the Inquisitor present. ... Unless, you know, Solas just dies, then that's certainly "closure" of a sort. I have a feeling Solas will find some way to remove the Inquisitor from the playing field for the duration of the game, reappearing perhaps in a cameo at the very end. Having the Inquisitor "around" potentially creates a lot of narrative hurdles. No matter what you did, it would be extremely difficult to satisfy players. The easiest thing to do would be to just quickly remove "the problem" and deal with it at the end.
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Post by Hrungr on Dec 8, 2016 0:28:52 GMT
Sanshee @teamsanshee It has been a very cute day full of very cute plush! 💖 Brianne Battye @bbattyeSoon one of you will be mine...
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Post by Hrungr on Dec 8, 2016 1:13:17 GMT
At this point, with a potential fourth game, I think it will be more harmful to the game as a whole to continue to cater to new players. Heck, the title alone has the potential to do that. Even if "four" isn't stated outright, they're usually marketed as "the latest installment," "the fourth game in the series," and so on. Most new players will buy the game knowing it's a fourth game and have already made the decision that they will either not know what's going on, decided to roll with it, play the previous games, or do some reading before hand. I think new players could be brought up to speed during the run-up to the new game. A broad overview of previous and current events could happen in a video (or series of videos), updating the DA site to make it new player friendly, and the opportunity to dive deeper if they want to (like a mini-wiki). Similar in some ways to what MEA is doing... For previous players, the DA Keep can have Varric narrate your entire playthrough if you needed a refresher.
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Post by spiritofsolace on Dec 8, 2016 1:41:39 GMT
^ The change of setting is a major plus for me for exactly that reason. DAI went way overboard with its carryovers and cameos. But in terms of the story connection, the DA series has gotten more and more connected with each installment. DAI didn't introduce a "new" anything -- even Hawke came back -- except Solas. We had Corypheus from DA2, Samson from DA2, and the mage/templar conflict from DAO and DA2. No, you don't have to have played DA2 or the Legacy DLC to "get" DAI, but I think the experience would have been extremely lacking without it. Also, David Gaider said that the entire plot arc was cut in half. With the DAI post-credit Solas reveal, we saw how he was the instigator of it all, so it's not like they shoehorned Solas in at the last moment; he's woven through everything. Regardless of the state of the Inquisition as an organization, with Trespasser, we have a very clear lead-in to the next game. To me, that says, very clearly, that the next game is going to continue on that same story. How the Inquisitor will be involved is anybody's guess, but they will most likely be involved in some manner. Not only does the final Trespasser scene show their personal investment, but PW said that he wants to give Solas/Lavellan some sort of closure, and you can't have that without the Inquisitor present. ... Unless, you know, Solas just dies, then that's certainly "closure" of a sort. I have a feeling Solas will find some way to remove the Inquisitor from the playing field for the duration of the game, reappearing perhaps in a cameo at the very end. Having the Inquisitor "around" potentially creates a lot of narrative hurdles. No matter what you did, it would be extremely difficult to satisfy players. The easiest thing to do would be to just quickly remove "the problem" and deal with it at the end. I hope they don't do that. Since that would be a complete waste. Like why even bring up the inquisitor/Solas relationship as a focal point in trespasser if they are immediately going to shelve it? As far as I am concerned they made their bed and now they have to lay in it.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Dec 8, 2016 3:31:21 GMT
Excellent points, as always, but let me just add on to this: Hmm, I have no idea what would be involved to have yearly installments. Whether that would be something people would want or something BioWare could even produce at a reasonably high level of quality. RPGs being RPGs and all... If the Exalted Plains, Emerald Graves and Hissing Waste had not been in the base game (moving those few required items, like the White Wyvern, someplace else) and had instead been released as individual free DLC add-ons, would the fanbase be more or less satisfied than what we actually got? Clearly, it can't be worse than what we got, since it's exactly the same content for the same price, just distributed later as mid-life kickers. And it's not like the main narrative was going to miss them. There wouldn't even need to be a reason to go there that's connected to the Breach, which is probably already closed by the time the DLC drops -- because there's no reason in the game as it stands today. Alternatively, since my argument is partly about revenue, make the add-ons free only for the Digital Deluxe version, which already has a premium price. Everyone else has to pay $2.99 or whatever for the add-ons. Not very many people would buy them, but the people that don't are probably the same people that complain about being overcharged for all the "filler" anyway.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Dec 8, 2016 3:45:08 GMT
I'd prefer if they just embraced the serialized format, to be honest. So go full ME trilogy, but with new PCs each time? That would be my preference as well, but after ME3, they might be a bit gun-shy about connecting the installments too tightly. It builds up expectations too much. Whereas if you kind of only loosely connect them, they have a bit more freedom to introduce new arcs and phase out old ones, spreading out the fandom outrage over multiple installments. I wonder if some of the odd reversals and downplaying of old arcs seen in DAI, like the GW and the world-ending threat of the next Blight, was intentional for exactly that reason?
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Post by Nightscrawl on Dec 8, 2016 7:42:18 GMT
Well no, I don't necessarily mean they have to have a grand over-arching storyline, but just write each game as if the player is knowledgeable about the world without having to explain some of the more complicated dynamics over and over again.
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Post by ladyiolanthe on Dec 8, 2016 14:58:08 GMT
Heimdall Urban fantasy, like Batman? or...? Technically, urban fantasy can be a lot of things. Often it's kinda like Harry Potter or Buffy or Dresden, in the sense that there are supernatural elements to the world that are hidden from day to day normal people. People in the more urban of those setting tend to end up in a lot of abandoned buildings, so that's kinda what I'm hoping for. A video game in a place like Charles de Lint's Newford would certainly be interesting for me! ^-^
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Post by Hrungr on Dec 8, 2016 15:41:39 GMT
I have a feeling Solas will find some way to remove the Inquisitor from the playing field for the duration of the game, reappearing perhaps in a cameo at the very end. Having the Inquisitor "around" potentially creates a lot of narrative hurdles. No matter what you did, it would be extremely difficult to satisfy players. The easiest thing to do would be to just quickly remove "the problem" and deal with it at the end. I hope they don't do that. Since that would be a complete waste. Like why even bring up the inquisitor/Solas relationship as a focal point in trespasser if they are immediately going to shelve it? As far as I am concerned they made their bed and now they have to lay in it. It'd be great if they could come up with some clever way of handling an "active" Inquisitor in a way that gets around all the potential issues of having an active Inquisitor. Excellent points, as always, but let me just add on to this: Hmm, I have no idea what would be involved to have yearly installments. Whether that would be something people would want or something BioWare could even produce at a reasonably high level of quality. RPGs being RPGs and all... If the Exalted Plains, Emerald Graves and Hissing Waste had not been in the base game (moving those few required items, like the White Wyvern, someplace else) and had instead been released as individual free DLC add-ons, would the fanbase be more or less satisfied than what we actually got? Clearly, it can't be worse than what we got, since it's exactly the same content for the same price, just distributed later as mid-life kickers. And it's not like the main narrative was going to miss them. There wouldn't even need to be a reason to go there that's connected to the Breach, which is probably already closed by the time the DLC drops -- because there's no reason in the game as it stands today. Alternatively, since my argument is partly about revenue, make the add-ons free only for the Digital Deluxe version, which already has a premium price. Everyone else has to pay $2.99 or whatever for the add-ons. Not very many people would buy them, but the people that don't are probably the same people that complain about being overcharged for all the "filler" anyway. So, releasing them similar to DLC like JoH and Descent, which kinda fall into that category? Essentially having more single region playgrounds that aren't strongly tied to the main plot. Eg. 6 (instead of 3) DLC regions to explore staggered over a longer period? EDIT: I've probably derailed the Twitter Thread enough... If anyone wants to start a new thread on this...
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Post by Hrungr on Dec 8, 2016 16:32:59 GMT
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Post by Hrungr on Dec 8, 2016 20:06:12 GMT
Sanshee @teamsanshee With pre-orders sent, all remaining @dragonage plushes are available for regular sale at Sanshee! bit.ly/2eIkdb9David Gaider @davidgaider Damn it, now there are MORE plushes I have to acquire. And I JUST got the Dorian one.
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Post by gervaise21 on Dec 8, 2016 20:15:32 GMT
To be honest it always seemed strange that they did tie off the Inquisition after only 2 DLC plus Trespasser. Given 2 years was meant to have passed since the end of Corypheus, that left plenty of potential for short story plots involving the Inquisitor and their team. Instead, if you did JoH and Descent before confronting Corypheus, then apparently the Inquisitor was really just twiddling their thumbs and doing paperwork until the Exalted Council was called. Actually I always do both of the DLC after the main game for the simple reason that I feel they make more sense there, particularly JoH, since because it was wholly unconnected to either Cory or the Venatori, there seemed no real reason why you would take time out from hunting him in order to pursue a vague lead concerning the former Inquisitor. (Plus Cory would have been way too easy with a level 27 Inquisitor).
If what DG said was true and they had only told half the story thus far that was originally intended for DAI, then it would seem the overall plot is already all there and just needs to be told. That may well make development quicker than anticipated considering they will be working with an established game engine as well. Here's hoping anyway.
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Post by theblackadder13 on Dec 8, 2016 20:23:47 GMT
To be honest it always seemed strange that they did tie off the Inquisition after only 2 DLC plus Trespasser. Given 2 years was meant to have passed since the end of Corypheus, that left plenty of potential for short story plots involving the Inquisitor and their team. Instead, if you did JoH and Descent before confronting Corypheus, then apparently the Inquisitor was really just twiddling their thumbs and doing paperwork until the Exalted Council was called. Actually I always do both of the DLC after the main game for the simple reason that I feel they make more sense there, particularly JoH, since because it was wholly unconnected to either Cory or the Venatori, there seemed no real reason why you would take time out from hunting him in order to pursue a vague lead concerning the former Inquisitor. (Plus Cory would have been way too easy with a level 27 Inquisitor). If what DG said was true and they had only told half the story thus far that was originally intended for DAI, then it would seem the overall plot is already all there and just needs to be told. That may well make development quicker than anticipated considering they will be working with an established game engine as well. Here's hoping anyway. It still has to be rewritten though in the context of a new PC, new characters, a new location, etc.
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Post by phoray on Dec 8, 2016 20:55:02 GMT
If what DG said was true and they had only told half the story thus far that was originally intended for DAI, then it would seem the overall plot is already all there and just needs to be told. That may well make development quicker than anticipated considering they will be working with an established game engine as well. Here's hoping anyway. It still has to be rewritten though in the context of a new PC, new characters, a new location, etc. BAH HUMBUG!
Oooo, that makes sense for the season.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Dec 8, 2016 21:29:23 GMT
Well, Naughty Dog has set the precedent. They could title DA4 as "Dragon Age Inquisition - Part 2".
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