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Post by apollexander on Dec 10, 2018 11:35:55 GMT
It's funny that some are criticizing games for the lack of politics, then accuse devs of political opinions different from theirs.
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arcanistranger
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Post by arcanistranger on Dec 10, 2018 11:46:45 GMT
Here's what you need to realize about the people whining about "politics":
If a game's setting is full of discrimination, sexism, racism, homophobia? That's fine by those people.
It's when the game has those things in its setting and depicts those things as being wrong that they begin to screech about "politics."
Which says a lot, really.
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Post by Heimdall on Dec 10, 2018 12:12:38 GMT
Here's what you need to realize about the people whining about "politics": If a game's setting is full of discrimination, sexism, racism, homophobia? That's fine by those people. It's when the game has those things in its setting and depicts those things as being wrong that they begin to screech about "politics." Which says a lot, really. That people don’t like being talked down to like small children? I only say this because that’s why I felt apprehensive when I read his response. I can respect that an artistic creation will probably reflect the politics of it’s creator, but when done badly and the creators treat their audience like ignorant children, it becomes an after school special, which is not what I’m looking for in my entertainment. I actually took some issue with how Krem was portrayed for this reason. I didn’t take an issue with him being trans, but the stilted way this fact was introduced made me feel like I was watching some sort of PSA for a hot second and threw off my sense of immersion, Of bigger concern are instances like the trans character in Andromeda, who’s original dialogue amounted to “Hi, I’m trans and this is my dead name!” So I’m a little worried about the creators trying a bit too hard to push the political messaging.
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Post by majesticjazz on Dec 10, 2018 13:11:47 GMT
Here's what you need to realize about the people whining about "politics": If a game's setting is full of discrimination, sexism, racism, homophobia? That's fine by those people. It's when the game has those things in its setting and depicts those things as being wrong that they begin to screech about "politics." Which says a lot, really. That people don’t like being talked down to like small children? I only say this because that’s why I felt apprehensive when I read his response. I can respect that an artistic creation will probably reflect the politics of it’s creator, but when done badly and the creators treat their audience like ignorant children, it becomes an after school special, which is not what I’m looking for in my entertainment. I actually took some issue with how Krem was portrayed for this reason. I didn’t take an issue with him being trans, but the stilted way this fact was introduced made me feel like I was watching some sort of PSA for a hot second and threw off my sense of immersion, Of bigger concern are instances like the trans character in Andromeda, who’s original dialogue amounted to “Hi, I’m trans and this is my dead name!” So I’m a little worried about the creators trying a bit too hard to push the political messaging. And we are still 2-3 years away from this games release and this debate is already beginning. My question is, does Bioware have a monopoly on diversity/political statements? RDR2 had diversity and political statements CP2077 will have diversity and political statements However I feel that when Bioware does it, it comes across as you explained whereas with RDR2 for example, it was more subtle/natural. Just imagine how Tilly and Lenny would have been handled if RDR2 was developed by Bioware.....
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The Elder King
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Post by The Elder King on Dec 10, 2018 13:23:50 GMT
That people don’t like being talked down to like small children? I only say this because that’s why I felt apprehensive when I read his response. I can respect that an artistic creation will probably reflect the politics of it’s creator, but when done badly and the creators treat their audience like ignorant children, it becomes an after school special, which is not what I’m looking for in my entertainment. I actually took some issue with how Krem was portrayed for this reason. I didn’t take an issue with him being trans, but the stilted way this fact was introduced made me feel like I was watching some sort of PSA for a hot second and threw off my sense of immersion, Of bigger concern are instances like the trans character in Andromeda, who’s original dialogue amounted to “Hi, I’m trans and this is my dead name!” So I’m a little worried about the creators trying a bit too hard to push the political messaging. And we are still 2-3 years away from this games release and this debate is already beginning. My question is, does Bioware have a monopoly on diversity/political statements? RDR2 had diversity and political statements CP2077 will have diversity and political statements However I feel that when Bioware does it, it comes across as you explained whereas with RDR2 for example, it was more subtle/natural. Just imagine how Tilly and Lenny would have been handled if RDR2 was developed by Bioware..... It’s a debate that takes an unecessary tangent here, though. Regardless of how Bioware will handle it, Epler just responded to people that tweeted him about not having (his) politics influence the game, and he replied in a fairly generic way, without sounding condescending (to me at least, and he was actually talking about things unrelated to what we’re discussing here). A thing I’d say is that what arcanistranger and Heimdall are talking to is not something that happens so many times, from what I recall. And overall, Dragon Age isn’t exactly a setting where everything is happy or perfect. Ironically, the developers have been criticized before by people on the opposite side and with similar views of Epler’s own, at least on the forums. Like with Sera Dorianthat got criticized by both sides (for different reasons.). On this topic alone, I think that sometimes Bioware will be criticized no matter what, by either sides. That’s not to say that they can’t improve on their deliver on those issues, though.
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Post by arcanistranger on Dec 10, 2018 13:37:33 GMT
And we are still 2-3 years away from this games release and this debate is already beginning. My question is, does Bioware have a monopoly on diversity/political statements? RDR2 had diversity and political statements CP2077 will have diversity and political statements However I feel that when Bioware does it, it comes across as you explained whereas with RDR2 for example, it was more subtle/natural. Just imagine how Tilly and Lenny would have been handled if RDR2 was developed by Bioware..... There were hugely-popular videos all about killing feminists in RDR2. Judging by Witcher standards, CP2077 will have outright and frequent racism, but the minority characters in the story will all be racist to the majority characters, so that satisfies CDPR's audience. You have to realize: there are people who can't stand BioWare making games that aren't exactly like their older games (despite the fact that their newer games are their best-selling games ever). And a lot of those people genuinely believe that it's the fault of women, minorities, and LGBT people that BioWare isn't making games for them and them alone anymore. Because making a heterosexual romance option doesn't take away from developing other things, but having a same-sex romance is entirely different and apparently does take away from the rest of the game. (And also bear in mind, these people are most often triggered by the gay men in BioWare games.)
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Post by The Elder King on Dec 10, 2018 13:50:35 GMT
And we are still 2-3 years away from this games release and this debate is already beginning. My question is, does Bioware have a monopoly on diversity/political statements? RDR2 had diversity and political statements CP2077 will have diversity and political statements However I feel that when Bioware does it, it comes across as you explained whereas with RDR2 for example, it was more subtle/natural. Just imagine how Tilly and Lenny would have been handled if RDR2 was developed by Bioware..... There were hugely-popular videos all about killing feminists in RDR2. Judging by Witcher standards, CP2077 will have outright and frequent racism, but the minority characters in the story will all be racist to the majority characters, so that satisfies CDPR's audience. You have to realize: there are people who can't stand BioWare making games that aren't exactly like their older games (despite the fact that their newer games are their best-selling games ever). And a lot of those people genuinely believe that it's the fault of women, minorities, and LGBT people that BioWare isn't making games for them and them alone anymore. Because making a heterosexual romance option doesn't take away from developing other things, but having a same-sex romance is entirely different and apparently does take away from the rest of the game. (And also bear in mind, these people are most often triggered by the gay men in BioWare games.) And there are a lot of people that don’t like recent Bioware games for gameplay, storytelling features, and not because of those reasons. People have different opinions. Even between Bioware fans, there’s plenty of discord in gameplay elements, or story features, and more. And you’re once again grouping all of CDPR’s fans (and many are Bioware’s fans) and what they want. As well as generalizing the situation. Even without thinking much I can thing of a minority character that is not racist towards the majority: Zoltan. The Witcher’s world is first and foremost an established setting, and CDPR couldn’t deviate much by it. And it’s generally a setting where every side has good and bad people, racists and non-racists. And it’s not like Dragon Age isn’t privy ogni such cases, since we have seen in the past plenty of elves, a minority, being racists towards humans.
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Post by majesticjazz on Dec 10, 2018 13:52:55 GMT
And we are still 2-3 years away from this games release and this debate is already beginning. My question is, does Bioware have a monopoly on diversity/political statements? RDR2 had diversity and political statements CP2077 will have diversity and political statements However I feel that when Bioware does it, it comes across as you explained whereas with RDR2 for example, it was more subtle/natural. Just imagine how Tilly and Lenny would have been handled if RDR2 was developed by Bioware..... There were hugely-popular videos all about killing feminists in RDR2. Judging by Witcher standards, CP2077 will have outright and frequent racism, but the minority characters in the story will all be racist to the majority characters, so that satisfies CDPR's audience. You have to realize: there are people who can't stand BioWare making games that aren't exactly like their older games (despite the fact that their newer games are their best-selling games ever). And a lot of those people genuinely believe that it's the fault of women, minorities, and LGBT people that BioWare isn't making games for them and them alone anymore. Because making a heterosexual romance option doesn't take away from developing other things, but having a same-sex romance is entirely different and apparently does take away from the rest of the game. (And also bear in mind, these people are most often triggered by the gay men in BioWare games.) 1) Killing feminists in RDR2 is a player choice. There were NO missions or tasks in the game that had players kill them. I could also kill homeless veterans in RDR2, but that was my choice, not something that was given to me as a mission. You can't blame Rockstar for that. 2) Yes there is racism in CP2077, but Im more curious as to why you feel that satisfies "their audience". 3) I believe the novelty of Bioware being diverse is no longer there because so many other developers does it themselves. In Assassins Creed Odyssey I could play as a muscular female. I could engage in homosexual romances. In CP2077 I could play as a homosexual male which eliminates the criticisms of TW3 in that we could only play as a hypermasculine white male.
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Post by The Elder King on Dec 10, 2018 13:57:31 GMT
There were hugely-popular videos all about killing feminists in RDR2. Judging by Witcher standards, CP2077 will have outright and frequent racism, but the minority characters in the story will all be racist to the majority characters, so that satisfies CDPR's audience. You have to realize: there are people who can't stand BioWare making games that aren't exactly like their older games (despite the fact that their newer games are their best-selling games ever). And a lot of those people genuinely believe that it's the fault of women, minorities, and LGBT people that BioWare isn't making games for them and them alone anymore. Because making a heterosexual romance option doesn't take away from developing other things, but having a same-sex romance is entirely different and apparently does take away from the rest of the game. (And also bear in mind, these people are most often triggered by the gay men in BioWare games.) 1) Killing feminists in RDR2 is a player choice. There were NO missions or tasks in the game that had players kill them. I could also kill homeless veterans in RDR2, but that was my choice, not something that was given to me as a mission. You can't blame Rockstar for that. 2) Yes there is racism in CP2077, but Im more curious as to why you feel that satisfies "their audience". 3) I believe the novelty of Bioware being diverse is no longer there because so many other developers does it themselves. In Assassins Creed Odyssey I could play as a muscular female. I could engage in homosexual romances. In CP2077 I could play as a homosexual male which eliminates the criticisms of TW3 in that we could only play as a hypermasculine white male. Given by his description of CDPR, I’d guess in TW3 Geralt would’ve no problems in getting in a threesome with Yenn and Triss, right? And yet....
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Post by Hrungr on Dec 10, 2018 14:04:18 GMT
John Epler @eplerjc People should not feel turned away from that story because of their sexuality, or gender identity, or race, or anything at all. We will make mistakes, and we will miss some targets, but that's where my 'politics' are.
All of that said, my second favourite game of all time is Ultima Online and I was a horrifying murderer in that game. We all contain multitudes.
Someday, I'd really like to see a survey of people who played DayZ and how many, like me, started off as a trusting, generally kind person and only became a cold-hearted murderer when every encounter resulted in their deaths.
Me the first few months: 'Another survivor! I will introduce myself and we can engage in Jolly Cooperation!' Me soon after: 'Good, they're distracted, time to murder them and take all their beans.'
I will say, though, I recently shot someone in cold blood as they ran across a field, and the death animation made me feel like the world's greatest monster. But it didn't stop me from taking their beans.
[HASH]DAT
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Post by Fredward on Dec 10, 2018 14:06:13 GMT
There's probably a difference worthy of acknowledgement between having a problem with representation and having a problem with didactic representation. I can see why some of the representation in DAI was seen as the latter and can't really fault a desire for it to not be didactic in the future. For the former... once, in the bad old days, when you asked for representation one of the more civil responses you would get is "Go make your own games." Well, guess who is making the games now? My suggestion for people who have a problem with diversity and representation as a concept regardless of how it's implemented would be: go make your own games.
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Post by midnight tea on Dec 10, 2018 15:07:19 GMT
I'm still waiting for a Twist Of A Century... There are no spies in your midst. YOU are the spy!!Having our protagonist discover they've been a brainwashed sleeper agent for the Qunari/Executors the entire time would be a fun twist, sort of a mixture of Revan, Bioshock 1 and the Manchurian Candidate. Perhaps part of the plot would involve figuring out how to break free from our programming, as well as learning more about our mission and who sent us?
(Would you kindly?)
This scenario is very interesting too and I can see it being done, but I think it'd create a nice counter-balance to what happened before for us to experience how it is to be in a position of a person who will ultimately betray people they worked with. Like - we get a valid enough reason and willfully participate in infiltration, but things become messy when we get ourselves attached to people. Kinda like Bull. Or Solas
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Post by mfr001 on Dec 10, 2018 15:24:10 GMT
I kinda want to know what Salos mean but am a bit afraid of the answer... Old supposed leak about a hypothetical DA4 that insisted Solas was going to be clever and hide in plain sight by renaming himself "Salos". ("Master of Disguise" was left unsaid, but I've always felt it was heavily implied.) No one would know it was him. The perfect con! I suppose Ass'ol would have been too much of a giveaway.
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Post by midnight tea on Dec 10, 2018 15:36:30 GMT
1) Killing feminists in RDR2 is a player choice. There were NO missions or tasks in the game that had players kill them. I could also kill homeless veterans in RDR2, but that was my choice, not something that was given to me as a mission. You can't blame Rockstar for that. 2) Yes there is racism in CP2077, but Im more curious as to why you feel that satisfies "their audience". 3) I believe the novelty of Bioware being diverse is no longer there because so many other developers does it themselves. In Assassins Creed Odyssey I could play as a muscular female. I could engage in homosexual romances. In CP2077 I could play as a homosexual male which eliminates the criticisms of TW3 in that we could only play as a hypermasculine white male. Given by his description of CDPR, I’d guess in TW3 Geralt would’ve no problems in getting in a threesome with Yenn and Triss, right? And yet.... Nevermind that we get a real downer ending if Geralt messes up being a father figure to his beloved adopted daughter he's spent entire game searching for...
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Post by phoray on Dec 10, 2018 15:43:31 GMT
John Epler is being chatty. Weekes should be chatty
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Post by arcanistranger on Dec 10, 2018 15:55:02 GMT
Nevermind that we get a real downer ending if Geralt messes up being a father figure to his beloved adopted daughter he's spent entire game searching for... By which you mean "caring too much, while being an unconcerned (if not outright abusive) piece of shit gets you a good ending." Which all boils down to CDPR's shallow "good people get screwed over" writing.
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Post by AlleluiaElizabeth on Dec 10, 2018 16:02:35 GMT
John Epler @eplerjc]Someday, I'd really like to see a survey of people who played DayZ and how many, like me, started off as a trusting, generally kind person and only became a cold-hearted murderer when every encounter resulted in their deaths. Me the first few months: 'Another survivor! I will introduce myself and we can engage in Jolly Cooperation!' Me soon after: 'Good, they're distracted, time to murder them and take all their beans.' I will say, though, I recently shot someone in cold blood as they ran across a field, and the death animation made me feel like the world's greatest monster. But it didn't stop me from taking their beans. So. Epler’s *that guy* is he? Smh ( )
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Post by AlleluiaElizabeth on Dec 10, 2018 16:08:21 GMT
Nevermind that we get a real downer ending if Geralt messes up being a father figure to his beloved adopted daughter he's spent entire game searching for... By which you mean "caring too much, while being an unconcerned (if not outright abusive) piece of shit gets you a good ending." Which all boils down to CDPR's shallow "good people get screwed over" writing. I think you need to review the Ciri choices involved in the ending. The choices where Geralt favors Ciri’s emotional well-being over other things are the ones that end well. Also Geralt is a good person, fans of the Witcher series aren’t automatically racist, apparently the RDR2 suffragette gets murdered in that viral video cus she’s annoying (coulda been preaching about Jesus or the wonders of buttered toast. I doubt it would have mattered if she still constantly screamed in the players ear) and you need to take a chill.
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Post by midnight tea on Dec 10, 2018 16:12:30 GMT
Nevermind that we get a real downer ending if Geralt messes up being a father figure to his beloved adopted daughter he's spent entire game searching for... By which you mean "caring too much, while being an unconcerned (if not outright abusive) piece of shit gets you a good ending." Which all boils down to CDPR's shallow "good people get screwed over" writing. Dude, get off of the Witcher 3 hate train. People I personally know and respect worked on that game and it's an important series for us, Polish gamers, for what it is (hilariously, it's clear from TW3 who CDPR is in support of, politically, on a local scale and so on, and it's closer to BW than you think it is...). I myself sometimes consider sending my portfolio there. So am I, a certified Bioware trash, shallow too because I happen to like CDPR as well? The fact that some fans misconstrue what Witcher is about doesn't give you license to do so in favor of making Bioware look better - I personally feel secure about folks in Bioware being great game developers so this is not necessary at all, as much as their and CDPR's games can be contrasted, compared and discussed. This is why fandom wars and vitriol towards presumed competitors can only baffle me, on both sides. Why do you feel so insecure about what you like that you need to make everything else look bad? Don't be like those people, mate - it's why a lot of folks here don't like those who come and trash Bioware while singing praises of Witcher. You do the same, just the other way around.
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Post by arcanistranger on Dec 10, 2018 16:47:36 GMT
\Dude, get off of the Witcher 3 hate train. People I personally know and respect worked on that game and it's an important series for us, Polish gamers for what it is (hilariously, it's clear from TW3 who CDPR is in support of politically, on the local scale and so on and it's closer to BW than you think it is...). I myself sometimes consider sending my portfolio there. So am I, a certified Bioware trash, shallow too because I happen to like CDPR as well? The fact that some fans misconstrue what Witcher is about doesn't give you license to do so in favor of making Bioware look better - I personally feel secure about folks in Bioware being great game developers and this is not necessary at all, as much as their and CDPR's games can be contrasted, compared and discussed. This is why fandom wars and vitriol towards presumed competitors can only baffle me, on both sides. Why do you feel so insecure about what you like that you feel the need to make everything else look bad? Don't be like those people, mate - it's why a lot of folks here don't like those who come and trash Bioware while singing praises for Witcher. You do the same, just the other way around. Okay, let's see you actually say the same for all of the Witcher fans who invent complete and utter BS about BioWare's games.
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Post by midnight tea on Dec 10, 2018 17:02:49 GMT
Okay, let's see you actually say the same for all of the Witcher fans who invent complete and utter BS about BioWare's games. CDPR treats their staff like slaves and their players like idiots, but the same people who unquestioningly worship them have threaten the lives of women at BioWare because Sara Ryder wasn't a sex object. If you dig into my post history you'll know that I have been as much against such attitude in them as I am in you. And the fact that you keep conflating a section of rabid or vitriolic Witcher fans with ALL of Witcher fandom and make up untrue or exaggerated stories about the studio (I happen to know a girl who got really sick and they went out of their way to help her)... well, you are not giving me hope that you are any better than people you rail against. I have nothing else to say to you now other than good luck with nurturing this attitude. It will get you very far in life...
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Post by Hrungr on Dec 10, 2018 17:13:24 GMT
Part of a longer conversation...
John Epler @eplerjc I would expect, as the thread suggests, that the next DA will be exactly as reflective of the real world political state as the other three. Which is to say - you can read into it as much or as little as you'd like, but we want to tell a good story first and foremost.
[HASH]DAT
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Post by Hrungr on Dec 10, 2018 17:15:12 GMT
Okay gang, it's time to take the Witcher conversation to another thread.
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Post by smilesja on Dec 10, 2018 18:42:18 GMT
In my experience when people complain about politics, It's usually just politics they disagree with.
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Post by colfoley on Dec 10, 2018 18:43:41 GMT
John Epler is being chatty. Weekes should be chatty weekes is probably too busy writing.
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