But I also think that there were a bunch of 'evil' choices in Origins that just didn't make a lot of sense and seemed to be there just to let the player be a bastard for no particular reason.
What's the problem with that, though? No one is forcing you to choose dialogue options you don't like. I found those over-the-top evil choices to be silly/amusing, which is what I think they were going for. A lot of BioWare's earlier games have dialogue options like that, especially Kotor when playing dark side. I always figured once they moved to voiced, they just felt the options were a bit too silly to have someone actually speak them out loud but I could be wrong.
And yet the people in charge then are no longer in charge watership Down is being toned down for today’s audience. Is it not a fair question would dao or is dav4 being toned down for today’s audience
The warden or even the hero origin in dao commits many things that would be discouraged in today’s environment. The tranquilis a harsh sentence but allowed by a ruler. but in da4 will the creative team steer the ship back to a dao dark setting.
I do apologize if this is off topic. Felt like it was on topic due to recent twitter talk
Being "toned down" from what? DA4 doesn't exist yet.
I wish BioWare would stop playing games with my heart. I already fear Anthem will be a big flop and cause EA to cancel DA4, this word play is not needed.
I wish people would stop spreading this kind of nonsense rumor.
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
We slaughter hundreds to thousands of NPCs, and that's even considering story/gameplay segregation. No developer needs put on the pretense that their story must be a morally good experience, or otherwise 'pragmatic' but often discouraged decisions.
Maybe it is distasteful to you (and at least oftentimes, me) to be a 'jerk for the hell of it', but that's on Bioware for making a realistic enough setting that we can understand that a protagonist may indeed be someone who is a jerk for the hell of it. When you create the most gruesome of murderous monsters of people/creature-races in it, yes, the perception of protagonist capacity for evil is going to be there. Darker settings either have darker people present overall, or a black/white morality that good writers tend to abhor.
That was a lot of the notion of the Wardens in DAO itself, mind you. They were the saviors of Thedas. They were also often filled with people who could be called the worst scum of Thedas. That scummyness doesn't, and shouldn't necessarily fall off because they become a Warden, so protagonist choices that reflect this potential is appreciated. Sometimes scummy means weird things like murderous impulses that don't seem to make a lot of sense, IMO.
I don't hate that these sort of choices have been falling away from the series, but I do think the series loses something more than just the choices alone, by falling them away.
The Inquisitor, no matter what I did in the 'worst ways', was always someone I could either say was a 'good person' or at least 'someone trying to be a good person'. Not necessarily the case with Hawke (but somewhat), and not the case with the Warden. Similar compare between Ryder and Shepard.
Let's keep in mind that the RPG elements can't be disconnected much from what happens in the story. You played different characters, under different circumstances in DAO, then you did in DAII and then Inquisition.
You weren't as restricted by your own position in DAO, because you're a Grey Warden slinking through the Blight-torn country of Ferelden and used treaties and some work when it was necessary to form a front against the hoards of darkspawn. Nobody really cared about what you do in your spare time, save for closer to the end of the story, when you actually have some political clout - so, say, knifing random people among all this chaos was something they could actually get away with. It's similar in DAII - as time passes Hawke is more and more recognized, but aside from that, it's close to some random dude(tte) living 10 years in a city with many problems, in a world reeling from recent Blight. Not many really care what we do in our spare time for quite a while.
Inquisitor can't do many of the things, at least as freely as Warden of Hawke did or not personally (which is why they have an army of spies and diplomats) - details can be hushed down, but all the time we KNOW that the whole of Thedas is looking at our hands at all times. It's pointed out numerous times in the narrative - and one of the biggest themes is dealing with the public perception of us. We have more political power and impact, but our ability to gain allies IS dependent upon what people think of us. And we don't have convenient Warden treaties, plus we need to bring more people against Corypheus than just denizens of Ferelden, against a more exotic problem.
I have to admit that I am a bit mystified how is this a detail thats seems to escape some people every time this topic inevitably arises...
Last Edit: Dec 12, 2018 23:59:28 GMT by midnight tea
“The cosmos is within us. We are made of star-stuff. We are a way for the universe to know itself.”
So! I've had some people asking me 'what does a Narrative Director do, anyways?' Good question! I don't know what they do in other studios, but here's what my job is (basically).
- I am the vision holder for the narrative experience. You'll note I didn't say 'story'. - The narrative experience is everything around narrative. It's how we tell the story, it's how gameplay flows in and out of conversations and cutscenes, it's the interstitial bits and the whole narrative tapestry. - The story is one part, for sure, but that's in collaboration (and largely driven by) the lead writer. I provide high level vision and feedback, but it's the writing team that comes up with that story and refines it. It's a process I'm involved with, but not one I run. - I also work with the storyboard artists, the cinematics team, critical path level design, technical designers, programmers. The best analogue I've heard is the Narrative Director is a 'showrunner'. My job is to make sure all the pieces are working towards a cohesive whole. - It's also a lot of meetings, and sign offs, and generally making sure that everything coming in, even from groups not inside my sphere of influence, supports the narrative and emotional experience we want the player to feel. - It's a job that, largely, is done by being sociable and conversational. And it's a job about having a reasonable level of knowledge about a whole lot of things - gameplay, narrative, cinematics, tools and tech. I look back fondly on my time in QA as being good prep. - Right now, it's about seeing how many Yakuza gifs I can insert into our onboarding presentations. - Also, I'm an introvert by default, so the job can be exhausting sometimes. But I'm an introvert who loves people, so, it works out.
Anyways! This is actually something I -can- answer questions about, so if you have any, let me know.
While I mostly agree, I don't think an RPG should necessarily restrict itself to the ruthlessly pragmatic, in terms of more 'evil' choices.
We slaughter hundreds to thousands of NPCs, and that's even considering story/gameplay segregation. No developer needs put on the pretense that their story must be a morally good experience, or otherwise 'pragmatic' but often discouraged decisions.
Maybe it is distasteful to you (and at least oftentimes, me) to be a 'jerk for the hell of it', but that's on Bioware for making a realistic enough setting that we can understand that a protagonist may indeed be someone who is a jerk for the hell of it. When you create the most gruesome of murderous monsters of people/creature-races in it, yes, the perception of protagonist capacity for evil is going to be there. Darker settings either have darker people present overall, or a black/white morality that good writers tend to abhor.
That was a lot of the notion of the Wardens in DAO itself, mind you. They were the saviors of Thedas. They were also often filled with people who could be called the worst scum of Thedas. That scummyness doesn't, and shouldn't necessarily fall off because they become a Warden, so protagonist choices that reflect this potential is appreciated. Sometimes scummy means weird things like murderous impulses that don't seem to make a lot of sense, IMO.
I don't hate that these sort of choices have been falling away from the series, but I do think the series loses something more than just the choices alone, by falling them away.
The Inquisitor, no matter what I did in the 'worst ways', was always someone I could either say was a 'good person' or at least 'someone trying to be a good person'. Not necessarily the case with Hawke (but somewhat), and not the case with the Warden. Similar compare between Ryder and Shepard.
Let's keep in mind that the RPG elements can't be disconnected much from what happens in the story. You played different characters, under different circumstances in DAO, then you did in DAII and then Inquisition.
You weren't as restricted by your own position in DAO, because you're a Grey Warden slinking through the Blight-torn country of Ferelden and used treaties and some work when it was necessary to form a front against the hoards of darkspawn. Nobody really cared about what you do in your spare time, save for closer to the end of the story, when you actually have some political clout - so, say, knifing random people among all this chaos was something they could actually get away with. It's similar in DAII - as time passes Hawke is more and more recognized, but aside from that, it's close to some random dude(tte) living 10 years in a city with many problems and from a world reeling from recent Blight. Not many really care what we do in our spare time for quite a while.
Inquisitor can't do many of the things, at least as freely as Warden of Hawke did or not personally (which is why they have an army of spies and diplomats) - details can be hushed down, but all the time we KNOW that the whole of Thedas is looking at our hands at all times. It's pointed out numerous times in the narrative - and one of the biggest themes is dealing with the public perception of us. We have more political power and impact, but our ability to gain allies IS dependent upon what people think of us. And we don't have convenient Warden treaties, plus we need to bring more people against Corypheus than just denizens of Ferelden, against a more exotic problem.
I have to admit that I am a bit mystified how is this a detail thats seems to escape some people every time this topic inevitably arises...
Actually this detail has likely been understood by me, more than most. At least with how much I bring it up to friends when talking about DA.
But this stuff is by intent. DAI talks about how problematic the old Inquisition was. So why can't we be at least nearly that problematic? Is that history cycling again? Sure, lets do it. We know an Inquisition can handle it, so why wouldn't this one? Perhaps it would showcase some darker sides of the companions too. Vivienne clearly has a ruthless side, but by default we either ignore it, very passively support it, or actively go against it. Never actively support it. We have critical choices that suggest something ruthless, with some ruthless effects, but it isn't the agenda of the Inquisition, when perhaps it could have been.
The idea I got from DAI was 'history sucks, but let's be better', in my opinion. Great, a social justice message that personally agree entirely with. But this doesn't need to be only that story, and I think some narrative enjoyment is gone when this sort of story possibility is gone. The 'bad' choices become a routine, something that it feels like Bioware had to include to include but doesn't feel the heart for. When I kill or banish some prisoner in DAI, it is more often than not to either a lightly-to-hardly comedic effect or something that gets waved off. To be fair, DAO had something of this too, but less of it (I know, I just played it).
Indeed, we're a growing political power with the Inquisition. With this could have come some quite compelling consequences. Perhaps a very reasonable but difficult decision could have led to growing opposition from some quarter (okay, this happens, but in DAI it typically stops there). This opposition grows into a movement. And the movement opposing you pushes you to consider being harsher and, indeed, more 'evil'. This would all fit into the idea of the historical Thedas Inquisition, people who had a righteous but also RADICAL (and not PEACEFUL radical) agenda. Instead, we are put on a course of radical peace, radical moderation, radical status quo, even as tasked some things that break up that status quo. DAI takes reluctant hero (you know, that sort of 'best hero because they didn't want the power') to a canonical extreme that I think ignores a lot of great RP potential. I mean yes we can say we love the role, even love the power, but beyond those lines it doesn't mean much.
Being "toned down" from what? DA4 doesn't exist yet.
Exactly this.
I'm seeing some outrage click baiters making ad hominem attacks fearing 'agendas' in a game 3 years from launch. There's a solid team of writers on the case including experienced BioWare writers going back many many years. If there was a 'story problem' we wouldn't know about it until the reviews hit and nor would the troglodytes on the internet have any actual advance insight.
It may rumble on, but there's no way BioWare can actually 'answer' the concerns at this stage.
In my view.
Last Edit: Dec 12, 2018 22:41:38 GMT by SofaJockey
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ 3 decades of RPG gaming from green screen to 4K. Moderator posts mostly marked by 'Police' emoji. Other views shared are just personal ones. On UK time zone.
ladyiolanthe ladyiolanthe DiscoBabaloo It's probably too early to say yet, but will using the DA Keep (or something like it) be possible for #dreadwolfrises? I've seen some DA players who are concerned they won't be able to import save states since they lost their saves when computers crashed, etc.
Fernando Melo DiscoBabaloo Still too early. But we know it exists
Didn't they design the Keep to be used in future games? Isn't that literally why its there?
Last Edit: Dec 15, 2018 21:10:47 GMT by midnight tea
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Being "toned down" from what? DA4 doesn't exist yet.
Exactly this.
I'm seeing some outrage click baiters making ad hominem attacks fearing 'agendas' in a game 3 years from launch. There's a solid team of writers on the case including experienced BioWare writers going back many many years. If there was a 'story problem' we wouldn't know about it until the reviews hit and nor would the troglodytes on the internet have any actual advance insight.
It may rumble on, but there's no way BioWare can actually 'answer' the concerns at this stage.
In my view.
Got to get them clicks and got to spread the hate.
But this stuff is by intent. DAI talks about how problematic the old Inquisition was. So why can't we be at least nearly that problematic?
Can it really be claimed that people of Thedas don't view new Inquisition as problematic, especially in Trespasser? And that's regardless how goody-two-shoes Inquisitor can be.
Also - old Inquisition is old Inquisition, the new one is a new one.
Rest spoilered for length (will likely have to take this discussion somewhere else, if it's continued):
Some things repeat. Not all. The new Inquisition deals with a much bigger and less understood threat in a world that is still somewhat different than it was at times of old Inquisition. It's an important distinction.
Vivienne clearly has a ruthless side, but by default we either ignore it, very passively support it, or actively go against it. Never actively support it. We have critical choices that suggest something ruthless, with some ruthless effects, but it isn't the agenda of the Inquisition, when perhaps it could have been.
We can make Vivienne the new Divine We can make decisions she wholeheartedly supports too, like pushing whatever was left of mages to the new Circle.
The idea I got from DAI was 'history sucks, but let's be better', in my opinion. Great, a social justice message that personally agree entirely with. But this doesn't need to be only that story, and I think some narrative enjoyment is gone when this sort of story possibility is gone. The 'bad' choices become a routine, something that it feels like Bioware had to include to include but doesn't feel the heart for. When I kill or banish some prisoner in DAI, it is more often than not to either a lightly-to-hardly comedic effect or something that gets waved off. To be fair, DAO had something of this too, but less of it (I know, I just played it).
We can make so many 'bad' or questionable decisions most of our companions hate or leave us, or we can have a much cooler relationship with neighboring powers. Cassandra can get drunk and tell us in our face that she completely regrets giving us as much power as she did. We can jeopardize our relationship with Solas - something that will likely important in the future. The fact that these are larger or more political (and weightier) decisions made in the story rather than shivving a random NPC ain't making them less 'bad' and certainly not in lightly-to-hardly comedic category.
Indeed, we're a growing political power with the Inquisition. With this could have come some quite compelling consequences. Perhaps a very reasonable but difficult decision could have led to growing opposition from some quarter (okay, this happens, but in DAI it typically stops there).
Does it really stop? We know now there's going to be more story, even if we don't know the extent of it.
This opposition grows into a movement. And the movement opposing you pushes you to consider being harsher and, indeed, more 'evil'. This would all fit into the idea of the historical Thedas Inquisition, people who had a righteous but also RADICAL (and not PEACEFUL radical) agenda. Instead, we are put on a course of radical peace, radical moderation, radical status quo, even as tasked some things that break up that status quo. DAI takes reluctant hero (you know, that sort of 'best hero because they didn't want the power') to a canonical extreme that I think ignores a lot of great RP potential. I mean yes we can say we love the role, even love the power, but beyond those lines it doesn't mean much.
We know that movements and opinions exist that can influence our decisions in DAI. But was this ever a thing that existed in previous DA titles to any more significant extent than in Inquisition? ...No, not really. I think you are overselling the idea of how much can be done in one title. Inquisition was already an enormous game and - as mentioned above - it seems that we may need 2 games to actually tell its (and perhaps Inquisitor's) full story.
Last Edit: Dec 12, 2018 23:26:09 GMT by midnight tea
“The cosmos is within us. We are made of star-stuff. We are a way for the universe to know itself.”
ladyiolanthe ladyiolanthe DiscoBabaloo It's probably too early to say yet, but will using the DA Keep (or something like it) be possible for #dreadwolfrises? I've seen some DA players who are concerned they won't be able to import save states since they lost their saves when computers crashed, etc.
Fernando Melo DiscoBabaloo Still too early. But we know it exists
Didn't they design the Keep to be used in future games? Isn't that literally why its there?
I think it's just one of these things they simply CAN'T talk at the moment, even if the answer was always 'yes'. After all, Fernando does state that it's simply too early to say it yet.
“The cosmos is within us. We are made of star-stuff. We are a way for the universe to know itself.”
Didn't they design the Keep to be used in future games? Isn't that literally why its there?
Seems incredibly likely, but I imagine it's just caution to confirm nothing 3 years out.
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ 3 decades of RPG gaming from green screen to 4K. Moderator posts mostly marked by 'Police' emoji. Other views shared are just personal ones. On UK time zone.
BSN BioWare forums @bsnforums As you've offered, John, because this is interesting, could you give an example from a (safely out of NDA) older #DragonAge game, please. Of how a decision in the 'narrative' might impact how players experience the story? I think that could help people understand? Thanks. 😀
John Epler @eplerjc Trespasser is a great example. We needed to make the threat of the mark feel like it was actually present, rather than just showing up in cutscene. So it became a gameplay feature - it was unpredictable, and chaotic, and clearly spiraling out of control.
Looking back on it, there were some things I would've done differently across the DLC, but that's probably the most recent example of where narrative and gameplay meet.
BSN BioWare forums @bsnforums Thanks. ok, so would 'narrative' also play a role in the branching choices (for example) with how what happens to Krem and Bull's Chargers plays out in Trespasser with, er, the Iron Bull's behavior? Or am I thinking too narrowly? 😀
John Epler @eplerjc I mean, technically, I can say 'I'd rather we do X or Y', but that's largely the domain of @patrickweekes and his team. I try to be as non-invasive as possible when it comes to that stuff - let experts work.
That said, sometimes if I feel strongly about something, I'll pitch it and we'll talk it over. Patrick is a better writer than I'll ever be, it would be really stupid of me not to take advantage of that.
BSN BioWare forums @bsnforumse Got it. But in that case, a companion from a gameplay perspective has to become an NPC foe, presumably balanced to be defeatable. 🤔
John Epler @eplerjc Oh, for sure. But that's a gameplay question to answer - in that case, we would say 'hey, this follower can betray you, how do we want that to work?' and they'd figure out what to do with stats, equipment, etc.
BSN BioWare forums @bsnforums @eplerjc I read you were credited with 'saving' some of the Iron Bull 'romances'. That's got to be something to be proud of. 😎
John Epler @eplerjc Heh. I wouldn't say 'saved', but I felt it important that absolutely everyone get to ride the Bull. I regret nothing.
Did it escape your notice that the one murder knife the Inquisitor IS allowed to have is in a narratively crowded busy Val Royouex market place?
Because that is the most obvious "in front of everyone" there could be. Short of the Sham Inquisition Court we get to play. Organized murder is a okay.
Vegan, polyamorous, pre-med. Zevran, Fenris, Cullen, and Thane.
Sarah Lil @sarah_T_Lillie Hi John! What’s the most challenging part of your job?
John Epler @eplerjc Recognizing the difference between 'I wouldn't do it that way, but it's good' and 'that's probably not the right way to do it'. My ideas aren't always the right ones, and they shouldn't be the only ones that get implemented.
I love talking story and narrative, and I am a -font- of ideas, but my job is not to force my own ideas on the team but to help recognize and promote the best ones.
Did it escape your notice that the one murder knife the Inquisitor IS allowed to have is in a narratively crowded busy Val Royouex market place?
Because that is the most obvious "in front of everyone" there could be. Short of the Sham Inquisition Court we get to play. Organized murder is a okay.
ladyiolanthe ladyiolanthe DiscoBabaloo It's probably too early to say yet, but will using the DA Keep (or something like it) be possible for #dreadwolfrises? I've seen some DA players who are concerned they won't be able to import save states since they lost their saves when computers crashed, etc.
Fernando Melo DiscoBabaloo Still too early. But we know it exists
Would be wierd if they scrapped the keep after just one game
True, but a developer friend had put some doubts into my head because they thought the Keep wouldn't be necessary since the next DA game will be on Frostbite still. So in theory, you could import saves from DAI directly into DA4 without issues like there would have been between DAO/DA2 and DAI.
🐱Sheha 🐾 (Adoribull Addicts on FB) @shehasidek Hi John! Some folks on FB were wondering - what is the difference between a Narrative Director vs a Creative Director?
John Epler @eplerjc Creative Director oversees -everything-. They (and the Executive Producer) are the last word on pretty much every aspect of the game - and they also have a lot of involvement in franchise development as a whole. I have a more limited scope of responsibilities.
For example - there's a Design Director (Daniel Kading) who has final say on game mechanics, gameplay, and design questions in general. There's an Art Director, who has final say on Art. But our Creative Director can, technically, overrule anyone, and is in charge of the game.
Games are massive beasts - breaking out responsibilities into portfolios for each Director allows us to work within our specific disciplines, as well as represent those disciplines in project conversations.
Amara @amarafrosted @eplerjc since you said you were willing to answer questions, I’m curious: what’s your favorite part of your job?
John Epler @eplerjc Honestly, when I get to sit down with the writers and jam over story. Everyone brings their own preferences to the table (I'm a big fan of massive set pieces and heroic last stands, for example), and what comes out the other end is always great.
🐉 emily 🐉 @maybe_bird what's the most rewarding part about narrative directing for you?
John Epler @eplerjc The team of people I get to work with, honestly. They're fantastic, and a lot of my job is just... not interfering with their creativity. I've known Narrative Directors who believe their job is to be a second Lead Writer, but why would I do that when our Lead Writer is so good?
Did it escape your notice that the one murder knife the Inquisitor IS allowed to have is in a narratively crowded busy Val Royouex market place?
Because that is the most obvious "in front of everyone" there could be. Short of the Sham Inquisition Court we get to play. Organized murder is a okay.
To my knowledge, there's no murderknifing in a narratively crowded Val Royeaux marketplace So I'm really sure what you're talking about. Maybe knifing Florianne in the Winter Palace? Because that has happened after Inquisitor has been bestowed judiciary power by surrounding countries and most definitely part of the sanctioned Game. It's also not something we can do unless we have sufficient evidence of Florianne being a traitor.
Also - never said that Inquisitor can't do any questionable things. We can, murder or no, and usually things far away from many eyes. It's just that they can't do them as freely as Warden or Hawke, because not all of these things can be mopped up by spies or diplomats when everybody's looking at your hands at all times, to potentially use every slip up as a political weapon.
Last Edit: Dec 13, 2018 1:51:53 GMT by midnight tea
“The cosmos is within us. We are made of star-stuff. We are a way for the universe to know itself.”
Dreadwolf Bauer @not_eddiebauer My biggest question about is how you feel about linking gameplay choices with story, particularly when it comes to, say, specializations. In DA:O, it felt like you worked hard to unlock a class like Blood Mage or Reaver, and paid a price for it as well.
The ease with which you could casually become a Templar or Reaver in DA:I always felt a bit like it took me out of the world.
John Epler @eplerjc I think stuff like that can come down to 'how much do we want to focus on this?' It's a fine line - giving players a lot of gameplay choices without sacrificing story - and we don't always get it right.
It also comes down to resources. Part of my job is being able to say 'this is important, this is not'.