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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Mar 22, 2017 2:10:36 GMT
Anybody who's played; anybody who's watched, whaddaya think of the new dialogue systems and what do you think about the kinds of choices that are in the game?
Personally, the more I think about it the more I like it but I still miss the ME1-style of choice/consequence. This game does not seem to have a lot of "story choices!" where really major decisions have to be made. There are some but you'll ask yourself "Will this change my outcome?" and the answer will quickly be "nah". I think what I like about the new system and not just the tone-wheel is that dialogue in this game is used more as a tool to interact with the world than it is about making "grandspanning decisions". The actual "choice" choices you make do matter but only in so far as what they they do for your agency. It doesn't often have those moments like Ash/Kaidan or Save Council vs Not, it's more like the whole game is port hanshan. It asks you choices that are about logistics and rationale vs efficiency and usefulness and things like that. It is a good solution when a lot of the game is spent "planning" decisions with your Nexus colleagues and crew members. It's growing on me a lot.
Ryder as a character is also probably the best so far since Hawke in DA2. He can be corny as hell but he's not a wet blanket like Shepard. The only thing that lets his characterization down is the main plot but that's more of an issue with that whereas the side-plots flesh him out in great ways.
At times I think it shows that Schlerf had been soloing pretty hard on the crit-path and the stuff around it ends up feeling better than that saturday morning cartoon crap.
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Post by SwobyJ on Mar 22, 2017 2:16:21 GMT
What lets Ryder down is the animations to convey his character.
And a bit of lack of polish to dialogue.
Really hope DLC has a better grasp.
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Post by malanek on Mar 22, 2017 2:17:50 GMT
I actually thought the original trilogy was particularly bad at this. You kill the last Rachni queen and there is another one. You make Anderson the councilor instead on Udina, then he gives it up to Udina. Every major decision in ME1 and ME2 was simply whitewashed in ME3 making them completely cosmetic. Sure ME3 offered world changing decisions but we all know that forced them into Androemda. I'm afraid the only solution is to either give up major meaningful decisions, abandon the import, or stop making ME games altogether. I would personally abandon the player import, imo nothing but trouble.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2017 2:21:20 GMT
Personally I prefer the new system. Smaller choices that impact the detail rather than the whole. Makes it easier going forward.
And I like that choices aren't framed as "good" or "bad" like in the trilogy. I would say it's one of the places where this game improves the most on its predecessors.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Mar 22, 2017 2:31:25 GMT
I actually thought the original trilogy was particularly bad at this. You kill the last Rachni queen and there is another one. You make Anderson the councilor instead on Udina, then he gives it up to Udina. Every major decision in ME1 and ME2 was simply whitewashed in ME3 making them completely cosmetic. Sure ME3 offered world changing decisions but we all know that forced them into Androemda. I'm afraid the only solution is to either give up major meaningful decisions, abandon the import, or stop making ME games altogether. I would personally abandon the player import, imo nothing but trouble. This is not a fault of the system's design. The choice felt meaningful in ME1. It's ME3 and Mac Walters's fault for not addressing its consequences with ME3's narrative framework properly.
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Post by malanek on Mar 22, 2017 2:39:47 GMT
I actually thought the original trilogy was particularly bad at this. You kill the last Rachni queen and there is another one. You make Anderson the councilor instead on Udina, then he gives it up to Udina. Every major decision in ME1 and ME2 was simply whitewashed in ME3 making them completely cosmetic. Sure ME3 offered world changing decisions but we all know that forced them into Androemda. I'm afraid the only solution is to either give up major meaningful decisions, abandon the import, or stop making ME games altogether. I would personally abandon the player import, imo nothing but trouble. This is not a fault of the system's design. The choice felt meaningful in ME1. It's ME3 and Mac Walters's fault for not addressing its consequences with ME3's narrative framework properly. I think it is the fault of the design. Sure Mac could and probably should have ignored things like the Rachni and just left them out, but to actually explore the consequences of these world changing decisions in any meaningful way has proved too difficult and expensive. Bioware has not done it well once with ME or DA. Even things like character deaths are simply manipulated by having a mirror image character. It's actually reinstating the fact that your decisions DON'T matter because nothing important changes.
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Post by jalis on Mar 22, 2017 2:43:28 GMT
I prefere Choices have no or symbolic consequences, simply because we now bioware is unable to manage correctly such situation. It is better they avoid that, than once more disapoint players and/or turn them angry.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Mar 22, 2017 2:45:55 GMT
Here's a solution: Make ME3 revolve around the consequences of the Rachni. If you killed the queen there will be zero Ravager enemies in the game but more Brutes or Harvesters and no mission with Grunt but instead replaced with a similar mission where you have to defend a site where Reapers are trying to harvest Krogans in a Reaper Abductor-thing. If you saved the Queen you get the Grunt mission but where the goal is "save the Rachni queen from Reaper-domination" and then in Priority: Earth they will show up in cutscenes or they will control dead Reaper troops to shoot their own as you play through their "singing". Slightly more expensive, but overall doable if ME3 had not been rushed in 1.5 years. It's a big choice, it had to be implemented into the core story features the same way they managed (really well) to do it with Tuchanka and Rannoch.
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Post by Doctor Fumbles on Mar 22, 2017 2:51:02 GMT
I prefer the new system. The MET system locked me down to either going full paragon or full renegade when there were some choices I disagreed with. Also don't say you can play how you want, in order to get Tali and Legion to agree in ME2. You had to be almost full paragon or renegade.
This new one seems more realistic and answers in a lot of ways I would answer.
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Post by mordrek on Mar 22, 2017 3:09:38 GMT
Having finished ME:A, I have to go with the original story. "Becoming the Pathfinder" was pretty silly, having everyone look to you as a savior just because dad was? Much preferred the Shepard concept, and actually making decisions that prior to ME3 felt important. The fact ME3 blew the story and made most of your decisions pointless doesn't change the fact, that at the time of ME1/2 they brought the drama.
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Post by goishen on Mar 22, 2017 3:13:27 GMT
The entire problem is that it's not better or worse. It's just different. Let me break that down for you.
In some ways it's better. It's better not to have things gated off so that community members can't see certain things, certain choices. Say a Paragade really wants to see Mordin live at the end, can't because he doesn't have the points. Same with a Renegon. Say he really wants to kill Mordin. Can't because he doesn't have the points. I'm not interested if all my facts are correct, but still you see my point.
It's worse in a couple'a different ways. They say that they got rid of the binary system, no more paragon and renegade. Yet, with most options I've seen in game, there are only two options. That is, by definition, a binary system. Agreed, no more gating. But adding another line of dialogue to Ryder and saying that you got rid of the binary system (Rather than, say, "I should go") doesn't really work well either. It also doesn't feel like there are any meaningful choices in Andromeda. Nothing to really pull you in to the story and make you stop and think about what you're doing.
All in all, I would say to the writers of this game, to stop drowning us with quests and emails (or terminals, or those things on the outposts, or just anything) that we have to do. Concentrate on the story.
GDI. It's like your writers have become good at writing nothingness. I mean, I had to reread an email from a doctor (on EOS) that said, "Should be falling off roofs again soon" three times because I didn't get that he was joking. And then, when I finally did get that he was joking, I just grimaced. Doctors today don't have that kind'a time to write those kind'a cutesy notes.
That's fine for DAI. Do all the writing you want on that one, because there's no way to prove or disprove that. But ME?
Fuck.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Mar 22, 2017 3:24:14 GMT
"Fuck" indeed. How about next time BioWare spends the same amount of money that was spent on MEA but on having ME2's amount of character interactions and maybe a bit more, as well as amount of missions but then use that money for extra polish and quality of animation. See, THAT was the upgrade I had hoped ME3 was going to be back in the day, but instead BioWare games have been getting lesser the bigger they grow because they start shoving so much breadth of sheer content into their games that the individual pieces become more and more reductive.
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Post by midnight tea on Mar 22, 2017 3:24:51 GMT
I had to reread an email from a doctor (on EOS) that said, "Should be falling off roofs again soon" three times because I didn't get that he was joking. And then, when I finally did get that he was joking, I just grimaced. Doctors today don't have that kind'a time to write those kind'a cutesy notes. Anachronisms work both way. Not only this story happens in the alien-filled future - it happens 600 years from when original ME happened. And the doctor ain't necessarily human OR they live longer than us.
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Post by goishen on Mar 22, 2017 3:37:05 GMT
I just think of it like this.
BioWare made those three games with an idea in mind. In other words, they built it from the inside out. They let it flow, from Jenkins dying on Eden Prime to Ashley joining the squad. To Liara joining, killing her mother. Up to this point it was a little better than your average game, not great. Then Virmire happened, and that sucked us all in and shit just got real.
And then in ME2, if you didn't have a person's loyalty... They were dead. It felt like a fucking achievement to gain all of their loyalties. Again, with the very same idea that they had in ME1. Just letting the middle parts slide around, because they started with an idea.
ME:A it feels like it very much built from the outside in. You're searching for an idea, but you just can't put your finger on it yet.
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Post by disi on Mar 22, 2017 4:23:27 GMT
Going full paragon or renegade in the original trilogy is more like playing the system than the game. I never did it and ended up somewhere between the two with meaningful choices and some harsh consequences as in Tali or Legion. In my first play I was extreme neutral with the two and the outcome was emotionally devastating for me. I immediately stopped playing and took a break, for the rest of the game I thought about what just happened. The most wow moment in the trilogy for me. Another is Mordin and his extreme decisions. Qunari in general, Wrex being a good friend, Leliana being a good friend, Ashley not joining in ME2 and reunite in ME3, the Reapers. Garrus is OKish, but also forgettable, maybe that shooting in part one. Meeting Jack. I also like these "Are you the Herold of Andraste?", "Do you believe in the Maker?", "Mages or Templar?" questions in DAI, these have big influence on the rest of the game it seems (I am still in my first playthrough in this one). Saving everyone and everything is plain boring
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Post by KaiserShep on Mar 22, 2017 7:23:51 GMT
Having finished ME:A, I have to go with the original story. "Becoming the Pathfinder" was pretty silly, having everyone look to you as a savior just because dad was? Much preferred the Shepard concept, and actually making decisions that prior to ME3 felt important. The fact ME3 blew the story and made most of your decisions pointless doesn't change the fact, that at the time of ME1/2 they brought the drama. Though I'm not that far into the story, I'm not getting this "savior" impression on the Pathfinder role so far. I thought the circumstances of actually becoming the Pathfinder, and even the reveal about SAM felt far more organic than even Shepard's sudden thrust into becoming a Spectre. Heck even the fact that you can second guess the whole thing makes it a wee bit better for me.
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Post by degs29 on Mar 22, 2017 12:51:36 GMT
Personally I prefer the new system. Smaller choices that impact the detail rather than the whole. Makes it easier going forward. I agree with this. What they tried to do with the original trilogy, to some success, was hugely difficult. And ended up boxing them up in a corner with the ending.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Mar 22, 2017 15:35:35 GMT
I just think of it like this. BioWare made those three games with an idea in mind. In other words, they built it from the inside out. They let it flow, from Jenkins dying on Eden Prime to Ashley joining the squad. To Liara joining, killing her mother. Up to this point it was a little better than your average game, not great. Then Virmire happened, and that sucked us all in and shit just got real. And then in ME2, if you didn't have a person's loyalty... They were dead. It felt like a fucking achievement to gain all of their loyalties. Again, with the very same idea that they had in ME1. Just letting the middle parts slide around, because they started with an idea. ME:A it feels like it very much built from the outside in. You're searching for an idea, but you just can't put your finger on it yet. I like this way of putting it. It's pretty much how I feel about it.
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 22, 2017 18:53:40 GMT
I just think of it like this. BioWare made those three games with an idea in mind. In other words, they built it from the inside out. They let it flow, from Jenkins dying on Eden Prime to Ashley joining the squad. To Liara joining, killing her mother. Up to this point it was a little better than your average game, not great. Then Virmire happened, and that sucked us all in and shit just got real. And then in ME2, if you didn't have a person's loyalty... They were dead. It felt like a fucking achievement to gain all of their loyalties. Again, with the very same idea that they had in ME1. Just letting the middle parts slide around, because they started with an idea. ME:A it feels like it very much built from the outside in. You're searching for an idea, but you just can't put your finger on it yet. Note that the italed is not actually true; it's pretty easy to get several non-loyal squadmates through the SM. But the post is about feelings rather than facts, right?
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Post by mordrek on Mar 22, 2017 19:46:33 GMT
Having finished ME:A, I have to go with the original story. "Becoming the Pathfinder" was pretty silly, having everyone look to you as a savior just because dad was? Much preferred the Shepard concept, and actually making decisions that prior to ME3 felt important. The fact ME3 blew the story and made most of your decisions pointless doesn't change the fact, that at the time of ME1/2 they brought the drama. Though I'm not that far into the story, I'm not getting this "savior" impression on the Pathfinder role so far. I thought the circumstances of actually becoming the Pathfinder, and even the reveal about SAM felt far more organic than even Shepard's sudden thrust into becoming a Spectre. Heck even the fact that you can second guess the whole thing makes it a wee bit better for me. We must not have played the same game. From the moment you become the Pathfinder, people are treating you like the 2nd coming of Shepard, lol. Except you are a kid, not the Earth's most decorated badass.
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Post by azarhal on Mar 22, 2017 19:59:07 GMT
Though I'm not that far into the story, I'm not getting this "savior" impression on the Pathfinder role so far. I thought the circumstances of actually becoming the Pathfinder, and even the reveal about SAM felt far more organic than even Shepard's sudden thrust into becoming a Spectre. Heck even the fact that you can second guess the whole thing makes it a wee bit better for me. We must not have played the same game. From the moment you become the Pathfinder, people are treating you like the 2nd coming of Shepard, lol. Except you are a kid, not the Earth's most decorated badass. I'm playing the same game as KaiserShep personally. And nobody think I'm great so far, or seems to think my chance to succeed are good. Hell, Cora and Kallo wanted to evac me the first time I encountered a Fiend, lol.
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Post by KaiserShep on Mar 22, 2017 20:11:04 GMT
Though I'm not that far into the story, I'm not getting this "savior" impression on the Pathfinder role so far. I thought the circumstances of actually becoming the Pathfinder, and even the reveal about SAM felt far more organic than even Shepard's sudden thrust into becoming a Spectre. Heck even the fact that you can second guess the whole thing makes it a wee bit better for me. We must not have played the same game. From the moment you become the Pathfinder, people are treating you like the 2nd coming of Shepard, lol. Except you are a kid, not the Earth's most decorated badass. But who? I haven't come across an NPC that's acting this way yet. So far it's the standard NPC asking for help because I approached them. Heck one guy specifically wants Ryder's help simply because s/he wasn't on the Nexus when trouble started. Tann is not impressed, and Addison even less so.
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Post by SwobyJ on Mar 22, 2017 20:57:25 GMT
Having finished ME:A, I have to go with the original story. "Becoming the Pathfinder" was pretty silly, having everyone look to you as a savior just because dad was? Much preferred the Shepard concept, and actually making decisions that prior to ME3 felt important. The fact ME3 blew the story and made most of your decisions pointless doesn't change the fact, that at the time of ME1/2 they brought the drama. Though I'm not that far into the story, I'm not getting this "savior" impression on the Pathfinder role so far. I thought the circumstances of actually becoming the Pathfinder, and even the reveal about SAM felt far more organic than even Shepard's sudden thrust into becoming a Spectre. Heck even the fact that you can second guess the whole thing makes it a wee bit better for me. I think MEA has it somewhere awkward in the middle but still more appealing than the Spectre stuff.
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Post by brad2240 on Mar 23, 2017 16:44:58 GMT
I'm liking the new dialogue system so far. I feel like I have more freedom in which reply to choose because I'm not tied to an alignment progress bar.
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Post by ticktak77 on Mar 23, 2017 16:51:21 GMT
The new dialogue system is great - it's refreshing to be able to say what I want, without having to worry about some "good guy" or "bad guy" meter filling up as a result.
The game seems to be taking note of many of your decisions, including the more subtle ones.
How those decisions come to fruit in the future, who knows.
It does seem more organic and natural though. Far more than the originals. Being able to dictate tone was something I wish we could do with Shepherd. Sometimes you wanted to be firm, without being a renegade ass. You couldn't really do that.
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