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Post by jackdaniel on Mar 24, 2017 16:08:11 GMT
Having gotten to play a large chunk of the game, I am jumping on the "game bashing" wagon. The game does deserve a lot of the critique it gets, and I think the professional reviewers are actually being polite to only focusing on the issues specific to the game but not on the culture that creates those issues.
Seriously, the conclusion I can reach is that this game is the prime example of "design by committee" and how that can go wrong. There are alot of hyperbole going around about how the game is "broken". I don't think it is. Although issues with the game are plenty, I wouldn't say any one issue cause the game to be the way it is. It's that so many issue, while minor, are so asinine that they drag down the entire game. The game itself even when evaluated only on its supposed strength, story telling, gets a B-, that's me being generous.
Lets run down the list
Not Bad Parts:
The setting is interesting, I like exploring, I like sci-fi and I like space-based story. That's why I am cutting the game a lot of the slack. The story telling is not as good as the trilogy, but it's not "bad", it good enough. It has its good moment, but in between the good parts, there are tons of "meh" parts. I never thought I would say this but think that the game might improve if some of the contents were cut.
They really put into a lot of effort to make the star system map look awesome. Obviously this alone won't carry the game, but I love it. I would even say that I wish I had more to do in the star system map, but the game is already stuffed with too many random errands, making more random errands is not the answer.
Bad Parts:
Again to emphasize that I don't consider these issues to break this game or render it completely unplayable or unenjoyable. They are however, incredibly stupid, mostly avoidable and make me hate BioWare more than I hate this game.
Characters are ugly and generic looking. I think that sentence is self-contradictory but somehow is true. Ugliness mostly apply to the player character, and that mostly have to do with the CC, I won't focus on that since everyone knows what I am talking about. But the other issue is that NPCs are too similar to each other, even the important named ones. I understand it's hard to do with alien faces, since how are us human suppose to tell two turians apart? Thats why turians have face paintings, Asari have unique tattoos and sanitarians have different look horns and shades of different color. If that's not enough, then clothing and armor also works, even give NPCs scars or wounds. I think this game does a crappy job of making the important NPCs standout from the background. Did it ruin the game? No, but it did make me feel BioWare is just being lazy.
Crafting/Inventory
This system as it currently stands is crap. I assume in game design, you want whatever you put into a game to either serve the game play or the story. The inventory system serves neither. Why is there an inventory limit in RPG games? Because it doesn't make sense that you have a infinitely large backpack and unlimited strength to carry it. Why is there an inventory limit in ME:A? who the fuck knows? You are only carrying you current weapons, mod and consumables, and there is another "limit" on what you can carry called holster which is tied to your combat skill. Is there a cargo space limit on Nexus or Tempest on how many items Ryder can store? I don't know about that, but I do know that I can hoard as much copper as I want.
Crafting is the same. It sounds good in theory that you can customize your equipment and research new alien tech, but why do I have to research guns that are already present in the Milky Way? Am I coming up with Unique weapon version that is different from their Milky Way counter-parts? And how about letting us compare the spec of the things are are researching to what we already have? Was game play enhanced by letting me run between research station and the weapon load out station? Was it more realistic story wise? And don't get me started on the mining operations and planet scanning, there is no way that those things are profitable or sustainable. The paltry amount minerals you get cannot possible justify the equipment and fuel used to extract them! You are literally expending a huge high tech mining probe for an amount of copper that's not even enough to make a gun.
Power/Ability
I have harped on this issue on other threads, but the more I play the more it bothers me. Seriously, in previous game, you are given 7 or 8 ability, and you can easily access all of them fair easily and fluidly. Now that we are given way more powers to use, you would think that they want to come up with a better system to to accommodate more powers. It is fair to say that having too many powers make things go messy, and I agree. But that's an issue that the developers created when they scrapped the class system. And how did they design around the issue? By forcing you to access only 3 powers at any given time? You know what this is like? Its like if I decided that your car is not sexy enough so I give you an engine upgrade. But then I realize that you driving too fast might be dangerous, so I cut the speed limit in half and put up road bumps everywhere. Congratulation on your new and faster car, now you get to drive at half the speed and over all the bumps.
Conclusion:
You know what all these issue comes down to? Laziness or indifference. This is what you get when your product are designed and optimized against a checklist of items that the marketing department gives you. I bet the higher ups at EA gave them a directive to include larger world, so they did. But like in any corporate setting, they are just meeting goals and agenda by doing the least amount of work to get by. The boss said bigger world and more NPCs, they never said the NPCs have to be as good as before. Same thing with inventory and crafting, they just know that have to throw one in, they never spend the time needed to make those features improve the game or conform the the lore. Ditto for the abilities capped at 3. They know they wanted to scrapped the class system, but they don't want to bother invest in a new innovative system that is actually better and more fluid, so they just import the MP system into SP.
So yea, I bash the game as it stands, not so much because of the game itself, but because how I see the mistakes are made. BioWare brand stands out because they are not like everyone else who does all the stupid shit, and now that's not true anymore.
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Post by tziwen on Mar 24, 2017 16:14:35 GMT
Thanks for sharing your feedback in such maner. It's well fleched and pationate.
Thus i notice that every that bothers you are the things that break you suspension of disbelief. All people being alike, inventory problems, amount of full for little minerals, etc...
It's more the shortcuts that the devs took that the game "itself". Interesting tho, but those happens in any openworld game i've ever played.
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Post by jackdaniel on Mar 24, 2017 16:49:52 GMT
I suspect that had the narrative drew me in and kept me in the story, I wouldn't have picked up or be annoyed by these side concerns. But it's hard to do keep engaged in open world games.
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Post by jackdaniel on Mar 24, 2017 18:15:30 GMT
Thanks for sharing your feedback in such maner. It's well fleched and pationate. Thus i notice that every that bothers you are the things that break you suspension of disbelief. All people being alike, inventory problems, amount of full for little minerals, etc... It's more the shortcuts that the devs took that the game "itself". Interesting tho, but those happens in any openworld game i've ever played. Yea, that pretty much sums it up. I can feel that the player's suspension of disbelief is very low on their list of priority. And to add to that, it seems that the higher budget + more staff + advance tech =/ higher quality. Removing technical and financial limitation makes things worse. ME1 is objectively smaller than this game, much smaller. It's area is linear and tight. But does it feel smaller? Not really. Virmire, Feros, Noveria and citadel don't feel as small as they are in real sq footage, and ME:A planet doesn't feel that much bigger even tho they are. The game is not going to render an entire planet anyway, so whether the player feel the environment is big or small is all an illusion and slight of hand. Giving BioWare money and people to render a HUGE area will lessen their incentive to making the area SEEM big. More over, it takes much more effort to fill the HUGE area with quality content, something that is apparently beyond their current ability. Conversely, limiting the size of the world doesn't automatically make the world feel smaller, it just require more illusion and slight of hand on the part of the creator, and it's easier to craft content for the smaller world to make it more interesting. And if you have fun things to do in the world, it won't feel small.
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Post by jackdaniel on Mar 24, 2017 18:19:22 GMT
Isn't it kind of funny how not only is the inventory management awful, but pretty much anything you need to do has a bunch of steps you need to go through to do. Even basic quest checking and objective switching has you perusing through a bunch of menus. And on top of all that, every time you open/close your menus the game has to reload all assets, like you just alt tabbed. I don't know why they made it work like that, reeks of bad UI implementation. The UI is bad because the features it has to access is all over the place. I get the feeling that the "lead designer" is more like a project manager. The game isn't his baby, he didn't have a vision that he wants the final producet to show. He is just there to make sure the different groups get stuff done on deadline. Without a unifying vision, everyone did whatever they think would be good, and the final product is just that, a bunch of features that might have been great in a better game, but in this game just seems WTF. UI is just the result of this.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Mar 24, 2017 18:20:56 GMT
As I like to say, it's a fine game except for technical unfinishedness, but the game as it's been designed and developed has been focus tested to death. Seriously, BW, stop focus testing this hard or at least tell EA to stop bringing in WoW players to test your games; all you get is a bloated quest design that caters to people that love wasting their time full well knowing they're just metagaming without care.
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Post by KaiserShep on Mar 24, 2017 18:28:04 GMT
Can't speak for NPC's really since they always fade into the background (though Capt Dunn can get it), but I think the companions are pretty good-looking people, especially Drack.
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Post by jackdaniel on Mar 24, 2017 18:42:46 GMT
Can't speak for NPC's really since they always fade into the background (though Capt Dunn can get it), but I think the companions are pretty good-looking people, especially Drack. By NPC i meant people like Tan or Kandros, or any character that will send you on important quests, one that leads a planet or outpost, or someone a major plot hinges around.
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Post by KaiserShep on Mar 24, 2017 19:02:04 GMT
Frogs and birds are never all that great to look at.
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Post by Lebanese Dude on Mar 24, 2017 19:27:00 GMT
So in short your problems that justify bashing the game as a whole despite actually liking the parts that are presumably the reason you bought the game(story,exploration,etc..) are:
1) Ugly NPCs 2) Optional crafting feature 3) Profile System
Not gonna comment on 1. Aesthetics are in the eye of the beholder. Game looks fine to me. I think aliens are always ugly as sin. The human men in this game are mostly eye candy. Dunno about the women. I don't pay attention to their looks. Cora has booty though.
2 has a steep learning curve to figure out but is actually one of the bigger and more effective crafting systems I've seen in the game. Can use some extra polish in terms of learnability and usability though I agree, but to actually bash it is senseless. You can do a lot. You don't have to do it at all. It's there for your own pleasure.
3 is a non-issue once you actually develop your character. You can load profiles instantly and ability cooldowns are very short once you invest enough in your character. In previous games, abilities either shared a global cooldown or were generally weaker so although you could use two abilities they had to be used together in order to be effective and even then you had to wait between casts. In this game individual abilities are generally much more powerful, especially when they are augmented by their profile's stat bonuses.
As a vanguard I load the Soldier profile when I'm shooting at tougher enemies and Vanguard to pick off stragglers. I don't see the functional difference between this and having 6 abilities with Vanguard but only being able to use part of my loadout in any given situation.
Another example is using the Engineer profile to strip someone's shields then switch to Adept and finish them off.
The profile issue is honestly restricted to people who ONLY want to play a pure Tech or a pure Biotic and want to be constantly casting (which was already not a possibility in any previous game).
The game is not balanced nor designed around you not using weapons at all (they even said so on Twitter) or to use only one caster class (Tech strong for stripping defensives. Biotic strong for CC) so perhaps you should modify your own gameplay rather than expect the game to accommodate your niche playstyle.
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Post by jackdaniel on Mar 24, 2017 20:02:14 GMT
Every complaint I listed is a different way of saying that the game is designed with little or no regard to player suspension of disbelief. Since most of what you said has to with combat and power, I will respond to that. Why is that Ryder can learn 5 different biotic power, but can't deploy more than 3 different one without enduring a arbitrary cool down timer. Maybe it is nitpicking, but I wish the developer had thought about this as much as I had, and come up with in-game reason for this. Lets say this current system is the best combat system and the most balanced way to do gun fights, it might not the the best system for a Mass Effect game. For such a narrative heavy, story based RPG, you got to weigh every feature you throw at it against what it does to the suspension of disbelief. And that's the crux of my bitching and moaning, not the features that I may or may not like, but how the design process leads to such a feature.
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Post by Andrew Lucas on Mar 24, 2017 20:04:21 GMT
SJWs.
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Post by brad2240 on Mar 24, 2017 20:10:59 GMT
Characters are ugly and generic looking. I disagree and that's all I'm going to say about that. That's entirely possible. You don't have to craft, you can loot or buy the standard versions. But crafting allows you to install augmentations, many of which fundamentally change the weapons' mechanics. You can compare the stats of what you're researching to your current weapons. What do you mean you can't?
Honestly, three active abilities is enough. In ME 2 & 3 I found characters were best built around 2-3 active powers and their class passives, and anything beyond that was very situational. Maybe you built differently than me, though.
I'm finding the Favorites system to be unfortunately irrelevant so far because I'm not spreading my points across a bunch of different skills. I've focused on three actives (Singularity, Pull and Lance in this case) and the three biotic passives. I also managed to spare a couple points for Combat to pick up a little weapon skill but, again, passive. I feel like spreading the points out just means you're going to have very weak powers as you advance, and the CD of profile switching is going to be crippling.
I think the Favorites system will come into it's own in the late game or in New Game+. Getting those CDs low will take considerable investment in the powers and Profiles, possibly gear as well. At that point, switching won't be too painful. But early game I just think it's counter-productive.
As a final thought, I don't agree that these systems are the results of laziness or indifference. I actually feel like a lot of effort went in to them. People may not like what we got, and that's understandable, but BW didn't just throw things at the wall to see what sticks. Not IMO anyway.
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Post by Doctor Fumbles on Mar 24, 2017 20:12:02 GMT
I guess I will never understand the hate for having 3 power limit. It works fine in the MP, and you can kill stuff just fine with it. You don't need 8 powers to be efficient.
I also happen to like the crafting part. Being able to customize weapons is a system more games should have.
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Post by psychomunkay on Mar 24, 2017 20:18:35 GMT
My mind is failing me in my old age, but didn't all abilities share a cooldown in previous ME games??
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Post by jackdaniel on Mar 24, 2017 20:31:23 GMT
Okay, I don't need to know how 3-2 power build are awesome and efficient and are well balanced or how the dev meant it to be that way. I need to know if all that were true, why was there not a throw away dialogue somewhere where it tells you why you need to endure an arbitrary cool down timer to use a 4th power that you already know how to use?
If your answer is "because balance" or "because design", then I think you are the people who are okay with this game after all. If not having an answer to this question bothers you, then I think you can understand why the rest of us don't take too kindly to this game.
Seriously, for all you guys who love and enjoy the story elements so much, you are surprisingly forgiving of holes in setting logic.
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Post by Doctor Fumbles on Mar 24, 2017 20:37:15 GMT
Oh, story mess ups don't bother me. Game play>Story So logic holes I don't even notice.
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Post by Lebanese Dude on Mar 24, 2017 20:59:55 GMT
Every complaint I listed is a different way of saying that the game is designed with little or no regard to player suspension of disbelief. Since most of what you said has to with combat and power, I will respond to that. Why is that Ryder can learn 5 different biotic power, but can't deploy more than 3 different one without enduring a arbitrary cool down timer. Maybe it is nitpicking, but I wish the developer had thought about this as much as I had, and come up with in-game reason for this. Lets say this current system is the best combat system and the most balanced way to do gun fights, it might not the the best system for a Mass Effect game. For such a narrative heavy, story based RPG, you got to weigh every feature you throw at it against what it does to the suspension of disbelief. And that's the crux of my bitching and moaning, not the features that I may or may not like, but how the design process leads to such a feature. You aren't bitching and moaning. I'm just wondering why you're placing such weight on these particular issues. Regarding abilities, it was presented that Ryder is a relative newbie. The only way he became capable was a result of SAM. They mention this quite frequently. Via context you can establish that Ryder is still very limited in their control of SAM. In fact that's also implied. You can justify it as SAM being able to only tune 3 abilities at a time to a particular profile. That would make sense, but ultimately the reason that feature exists is that the developers wanted it that way. In truth you actually have access to 12 abilities, with each 3 augmented in some way by their respective profile. You could propose having access to all 12 at the same time and can just switch profiles for passive boosts. That could have been possible, but in truth it would complicate the design a lot and lead to balance issues. Why? The abilities would have to be individually less effective. Their cooldowns would have to be greater. You're just trading casting 1 strong spell for 2 weaker spells. The ABC design (Always be casting) isn't always applicable. Also, if you were able to respond to every situation in every way you'd basically never have a challenge. If you go for a Vanguard build you'd be able to toss all the CC in the world then charge in and yolo rinse and repeat. The profiles allow you to do that (to some degree) but there is still some flow to combat. I think it's a good middle ground to allow the player access to 12 abilities but to separate them into different fields that can be used depending on the situation. As I said, I'm a Vanguard main but I use Soldier for wittling down the enemy and Adept for controlling them. Then I just do what Vanguard does best: fk shit up. They could have just used the same classes as before, but now you're just limiting your character again. Either way something has to be limited.
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Post by jackdaniel on Mar 24, 2017 21:13:11 GMT
Regarding abilities, it was presented that Ryder is a relative newbie. The only way he became capable was a result of SAM. They mention this quite frequently. Via context you can establish that Ryder is still very limited in their control of SAM. In fact that's also implied. You have already put more thought into this than apparently BioWare. Truth of the matter is that such simple things are so easy to write into the lore via dialogue, codex or console text,which is why I find it so jarring that its not there. Going from ME1 to ME2 they swapped the cooling mechanics for heat sinks. I thought it was a step back but I just rolled with it, its design choice made to improve gameplay, but they bothered to work it into the lore so it didn't mess with the setting too much.
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 24, 2017 21:26:34 GMT
You know what all these issue comes down to? Laziness or indifference. This is what you get when your product are designed and optimized against a checklist of items that the marketing department gives you. I bet the higher ups at EA gave them a directive to include larger world, so they did. But like in any corporate setting, they are just meeting goals and agenda by doing the least amount of work to get by. The boss said bigger world and more NPCs, they never said the NPCs have to be as good as before. Same thing with inventory and crafting, they just know that have to throw one in, they never spend the time needed to make those features improve the game or conform the the lore. Ditto for the abilities capped at 3. They know they wanted to scrapped the class system, but they don't want to bother invest in a new innovative system that is actually better and more fluid, so they just import the MP system into SP. These laziness arguments never make much sense. You're not actually saying that the devs just put in a couple of hours a day and spent the rest of their time playing Overwatch, of course. So how would "doing the least amount of work to get by" work in practice? You can play underinvestment by EA here, but that's a different kind of discussion.
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Post by rasande on Mar 24, 2017 21:46:55 GMT
On powers: I think they should just remove the added cooldown when switching favorites, especially since going into skills and assigning abilities doesn't trigger a cooldown for them. It would make it so much more fluid, atm i rarely even bother. If I'm in a fight and my adept pull/throw/singularity(the classic!) still wrecks face,the cooldown will do more harm than good. 3 Abilities at a given time is fine if you could just switch them out on the fly. Also agree with you on the inventory/crafting point. I'm not a fan. It would be ok if we could store our guns/armor in an armory or something but now i barely ever have room unless i just want to chose 2-3 guns and just stick with them the entire game. For researching i guess they just want players to make a choice. And what a choice it is, milky way research points are so rare that you pick maybe one or two weapons and that's it, you simply can't afford to try things out or dabble if you want the high ranking stuff. I'd prefer if you knew all of them and they just cost more resources to craft, like you said, having to research alliance weapons makes no sense. Not gonna comment on the rest
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2017 21:56:11 GMT
I'm only a couple of hours in so I can't yet comment on most of what you said, but saying the characters are ugly? I disagree, Cora has a cute face and I like how Liam looks. So far the Asari are a little samey. As for the player character, yes the CC sucks but it's still possible to make good looking Ryders, if you can't then you're just not trying hard enough. My Ryder looks awesome (though it took me 10 hours to get there )
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Post by griffith82 on Mar 24, 2017 22:16:16 GMT
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Post by griffith82 on Mar 24, 2017 22:17:57 GMT
I'm only a couple of hours in so I can't yet comment on most of what you said, but saying the characters are ugly? I disagree, Cora has a cute face and I like how Liam looks. So far the Asari are a little samey. As for the player character, yes the CC sucks but it's still possible to make good looking Ryders, if you can't then you're just not trying hard enough. My Ryder looks awesome (though it took me 10 hours to get there ) I've only just tinkered with the CC and played a few minutes as I'm replaying the trilogy first, but I agree. however I made a good looking Ryder in about an hour.
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Post by brad2240 on Mar 24, 2017 22:33:45 GMT
Okay, I don't need to know how 3-2 power build are awesome and efficient and are well balanced or how the dev meant it to be that way. I need to know if all that were true, why was there not a throw away dialogue somewhere where it tells you why you need to endure an arbitrary cool down timer to use a 4th power that you already know how to use? If your answer is "because balance" or "because design", then I think you are the people who are okay with this game after all. If not having an answer to this question bothers you, then I think you can understand why the rest of us don't take too kindly to this game. Seriously, for all you guys who love and enjoy the story elements so much, you are surprisingly forgiving of holes in setting logic.
So you don't like the system, which is fine, but if there was a "throw away" line telling you it takes a moment for your body to adjust to an AI changing your abilities then you would be fine and dandy with it? That strikes me as odd.
Yeah, my answer is "because balance" and yeah I am someone who is ok with the game. More than ok, I love it. They wanted to remove the restrictions of the class system, but giving too many active powers at once would have seriously unbalanced the combat and brought it back to ME3 levels of facerolling. Removing the forced cooldown of switching would have done the same thing.
Personally, I'm old school and wish they'd have kept the classes.
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